To start, let me introduce myself. My name is Andrew Dunne, I go by 'Kibbelz' on the interwebs though. Although this account is new, this is not my first post on teamliquid, i formerly went by KibbelzNbits. Now, for the story...
....
It was a rainy day as I recall...
I brought home my brand-new painted cardboard box. Within it held the treasure I had been awaiting for longer than a man could possibly recall. A small disc. A Starcraft 2 Disc. I popped it in, went through the prompts, played my first few games, and placed into the "Gold League". Awesome! I just got it and I'm already gold! However my glee quickly faded as weeks turned into months of the Gold League. I found myself unable to improve at the game in any substantial way! I was trapped... in gold... Never to be promoted... until...
One day, I discovered a build order. It was a silly thing, something used in 4v4 by one of my opponents; but OH the EFFICIENCY! Every single mineral was always spent. Gas never pooled, minerals never accrued, not until after the 7:20 mark when the attack hit its timing, where my foes often fell! In three days I was Platinum. Six days later? Diamond. In case you don't believe me, here is a screenshot of my rank and a link to my sc2ranks profile: Sc2Ranks
[My skyrocketing rank October 4-12th, Eight days...)
Since that series of days back in early October 2010, I have ever since been fascinated by the Build Order. Not in an obsessive "I want to make the most efficient BO ever known to man" kind of way, but in a reverent, "respecting of its power" kind of form.
Today I am ranked #4 Master's. I've come a long way since 2010, coming to love eSports and pursuing everything in Starcraft from music videos, to joining a team to be a pro-player, to my current status of being a Caster for Playhem and MLG. Today however, I bring to you a proposition. This is something I have done in the past in some detail, but now seek to possibly pursue at great length. I wanted to write this post because I've been toying with the idea of construction a compendium of Pro-player build orders.
[The Dream]
Nine months ago I began watching replays from MLG Raleigh and MLG Orlando. I wasn't finding much success in commentary, but had gotten much better at the game with all of my practice. I felt that if I studied lots of pro build orders, I could increase my knowledge of not only the game in general, but also gain a vast knowledge of timings to keep an eye out for in my play. It was a way to improve, as, at that time, I was approaching GM and meeting some names on the ladder. I wanted any edge I could get.
Now, six months down the road, opportunities in commentary have risen abundantly. As such, I find myself wanting to have an extremely intricate understanding of the game once again.
That's where the compendium comes in. The meta-game has shifted a lot over the last six months; even still, I want to know it all. I want to know every in and every possible out of Starcraft 2.
The compendium is NOT what you see in the image at the start of the article! That is what I would like it to eventually reach; but countless hours of studying and recording replays will be required to transform it into something truly great.
Nine months back, I created all my builds in Excel spreadsheets. I don't think I will port all of the builds over, but some I will. I wasn't as meticulous when I recorded them, ignoring supply and harvesters and instead focusing on TIMES, because I was scouting for these builds as a Zerg.
[A build order from last year, note the lack of population info. I did about 50 of these, they are faster and easier than full BO's]
Getting the compendium to a point where it includes a comprehensive list of timings/builds is going to be tough, especially with pop counts. Many top-level games go for a very long time before either player is truly dealt damage. As such, many builds have timings that wrap up near 80-110 supply. They can take 30-60 minutes to transcribe into excel.
[This Macro-ish 1-1-1 style timing from MKP vs MC for instance, hits at ~10:30.]
I think it would be so cool to give all the knowledge in these replays to the community. There are many players, such as my best friend 'HEYron', that are stuck in lower leagues always struggling to improve. Mastering even a single build order is a HUGE step in the right direction.
What is important here is that performing an efficient build order gives you the understanding of what efficiency in Starcraft should FEEL like. For insance, I'm proud to let you know, that after I stopped relying on my build order for ladder games, I maintained my rank in diamond (albeit after a short dip back into platinum for a week or so). Furthermore, for players already top level, having many efficient build orders allows you to transition between similar builds and adapt what you want to do quickly.
[8 days this took me.. how long would it take you with the right tools?]
If we don't see eye-to-eye, just allow this: What if a silver league player were to practice, and then execute a build order exactly like DRG? Yes, the control will be lacking, but the units and tech will still all be there. This is not a build order from some random 4v4 guy, this is world-champion DongRaeGu. Yes, the build is likely going to be harder to learn; so to combat that, I included a build order 'Summary' (props to Hammer38) to make the build easier for people to memorize and execute; Imagine a silver-league Zerg player performing this build that allowed DRG to defeat DeMusliM at MLG:
[DRG's Roach-Bane "all-in" build from MLG Winter Championships]
Okay, so to stop being all hopeful and get real with you all... There are a million reasons I feel a comprehensive build order database could benefit the community. What I want to know is, do you feel the same way? I've posted to here and to Reddit asking this, and also giving a small plea for help. After recieving some feedback I'm actually not too sure that people feel the same way I do. I think polling you all at TeamLiquid would give me a good idea if I should put the time into this or not.
Please don't hesitate to let me know if you feel I'm wrong. I appreciate any feedback you guys have as well.
Oh and also if anyone else loves the idea, hit me up! KibbelzStarcraft@gmail.com, twitter.com/kibbelz, facebook.com/kibblypuff.
Nice idea. If you keep it up it's pretty incredible. Good luck.
EDIT: There's only 2 builds there now but it may be a good idea to add a Notes column in the original Google document so we get an idea of what the builds is and vs what race.
This is probably the best idea I've ever seen. Truly will be an amazing resource for players of all skill levels. Looking forward to this thread's growth.
If there's anyway for other people to help out make this guide comprehensive, please let us know. I'm sure there are many competent people who would love to contribute to your idea.
I think it's a wonderful idea, however, I believe you absolutely have to include notes on the situation the build is used, particularly for DRG's build.
Do you want to do it like chess books?An opening build guide? kinda like: White starts with e4 is king's pawn, Black can go either Sicilian, alekhine, king's pawn, queen's gambit... Is it your idea, or do you want to just enumerate the possible openings?
It would be best if you tagged the build order next to a replay of a player doing it so the player can see for themselves when they should use it. Great idea though I love it.
This would be like a build order notebook accessible to everyone, awesome idea! Also if you could provide a VOD or replay for each build it'd help people understand how to execute it better.
On April 23 2012 08:36 bpat wrote: This would be like a build order notebook accessible to everyone, awesome idea! Also if you could provide a VOD or replay for each build it'd help people understand how to execute it better.
Fantastic idea! I linked the replay packs but I'll make sure to provide a link to the actual replay in each build orders 'section'
On April 23 2012 07:10 SusaVile wrote: Do you want to do it like chess books?An opening build guide? kinda like: White starts with e4 is king's pawn, Black can go either Sicilian, alekhine, king's pawn, queen's gambit... Is it your idea, or do you want to just enumerate the possible openings?
I want this to be a reference place that you can go to in order to learn top-tier timings and openings. It's one thing to attempt to rush for a double-medivac drop; another entirely to do in the most efficient manner possible. Both high and low lvl players i think can benefit from this.
Regardless, what you mention is something that would also be a great idea. It would only take a day or so to make. I could make it and just include it separately i think.
But how about adding the possible Matchup's for all of these Builds? Like DRG's Baneling Bust, does it work even in ZvZ or ZvP? Cause there still players who don't know it's an ZvT Build so would be good if you add these informations to them
How does this project differ from Liquidpedia? Why don't you just try to make the Builds section on Liquidpedia better?
The Liquipedia builds section has become stagnant and crazy outdated, and this seems like a much more "open source" for people to contribute to imo. Also I feel spreadsheets have a bit more scope for containing all the build order information you could want, more concisely.
A project like this would be amazing. Liquipedia's list of builds are mostly undeveloped and often outdated. [just noticed I'm basically parroting the guy above me lol]
IMO, TL Mods are too focused on post quality. Always looking at conduct and rule adherence. This is good, as if not for them TL would quickly turn into a whine form.
But, there are no truly innovative mods. We lack moderators that actually compile and arrange information for consumption. There's the "SC2 Strategy Recmmended Tread" but that's it. Basically the forum mantra is "use the damn search button".
I think there should be 2 kinds of mods: "Ban Mods" and "Content Mods". Content Mods are moderators that actually can shape the TL website to be a "browsable" instead of "searchable" hotebed of information for SC2.
People like Kibbelz should be one of these "Content Mods". Because there are people that have good strats but lack the discipline to make and readable guide.
There are actually people in this forum that enjoy compiling and arranging information. If TL can tap them, they probably could update the wiki daily and make it a masterpiece.
Because the random helpful guy making a brilliant thread is one thing. TL actually organizing these people and having them come up with a unified format to make a central browsable strategy compendium is another.
There are no words explaining just how amazing you are! You should definitely hit up TangSC since he makes alot of post about current pro builds and such!
If I can make a suggestion -- early game food timings are useful, but towards the midgame they become pretty useless. I think it would be better to have timings instead of food build orders past some arbitrary supply, perhaps ~40'ish.
Still, this is a lot of work and I commend you for undertaking it. Good stuff!
WOW I think I am quickly finding that I love the TL community quite a bit.
Thank you SO much for all the people who have offered to help, I'll be sending you all an e-mail out tomorrow that outlines the process I use to efficiently construct a build order. Already like 6 people have stepped up and offered to help with a multitude of things. Jeremie Roy for instance, is some kind of whiz when it comes to Aesthetic Layouts and has also agreed to help with the formatting to make the Doc appear much more pleasant.
Wanted to say I have listened to your feedback and added links to each individual replay as well as a "Description" Paragraph that outlines the purpose of the build, its strengths, and its weaknesses. Check it out and let me know what you think!
Also added another build from Leenock!
In all honesty, you guys are helping me make this project better just through your feedback. So even if you're not helping due to time constraints or w/e, your feedback is SINCERELY appreciated and applied!
On April 23 2012 14:06 LazinCajun wrote: If I can make a suggestion -- early game food timings are useful, but towards the midgame they become pretty useless. I think it would be better to have timings instead of food build orders past some arbitrary supply, perhaps ~40'ish.
A few people have voiced this, and I am in complete agreement. It will be much easier to know to throw down your "4th gas @ Starport 50%" for example, than "46 supply". I'll be adjusting builds to coincide with this concept. Thanks Lazin!
On April 23 2012 11:39 Don.681 wrote: IMO, TL Mods are too focused on post quality. Always looking at conduct and rule adherence. This is good, as if not for them TL would quickly turn into a whine form.
But, there are no truly innovative mods. We lack moderators that actually compile and arrange information for consumption. There's the "SC2 Strategy Recmmended Tread" but that's it. Basically the forum mantra is "use the damn search button".
I think there should be 2 kinds of mods: "Ban Mods" and "Content Mods". Content Mods are moderators that actually can shape the TL website to be a "browsable" instead of "searchable" hotebed of information for SC2.
People like Kibbelz should be one of these "Content Mods". Because there are people that have good strats but lack the discipline to make and readable guide.
There are actually people in this forum that enjoy compiling and arranging information. If TL can tap them, they probably could update the wiki daily and make it a masterpiece.
Because the random helpful guy making a brilliant thread is one thing. TL actually organizing these people and having them come up with a unified format to make a central browsable strategy compendium is another.
Imagine, Liquidpedia linking to google docs.
I love what you are trying to do Kibbelz!
Definitely. SC2's metagame is going to be changing for years to come. If there could be a place where SC2 "research and application" (i.e liquipedia fail at the moment) could flourish, and where the latter would have the right people contributing and supervising (awesome TL community and proper moderators), it'd be just downright awesome. Yes. Awesome :-D
However I would have loved to see it structured in the day9 way, rather than a pure foodcount listing. I analyzed EmpireKas' 3 Orital builds against P and Z in that way. It really helps to UNDERTSAND and EXECUTE the build in the right way.
I want this to be a reference place that you can go to in order to learn top-tier timings and openings. It's one thing to attempt to rush for a double-medivac drop; another entirely to do in the most efficient manner possible. Both high and low lvl players i think can benefit from this.
Regardless, what you mention is something that would also be a great idea. It would only take a day or so to make. I could make it and just include it separately i think.
If you want any help, i'm volunteering, i think there's a lot of potential in this idea. Also, the link to a VOD is a really nice idea: "example of a 2 rax w/concussive followed by c.shield --» here it is:D" Thumbs up:D
If I can make a suggestion -- early game food timings are useful, but towards the midgame they become pretty useless. I think it would be better to have timings instead of food build orders past some arbitrary supply, perhaps ~40'ish.
Still, this is a lot of work and I commend you for undertaking it. Good stuff!
For some builds, the latter part (going into the late game) could be something like day9 said in his "simplifying build orders daily": just add the building groups, so players can realize how much gas they would need or how many bases, or how many production structures of "x" unit, that sort of thing. I'm also thinking that zerg does get to 40 food really fast without a lot of info on the build, so it can help those players achieve a good grasp of the build.
On April 23 2012 09:38 LlamaNamedOsama wrote: A project like this would be amazing. Liquipedia's list of builds are mostly undeveloped and often outdated. [just noticed I'm basically parroting the guy above me lol]
The failure of liquipedia to incorporate modern build orders is more of a failure of the community to edit our own resource.
On April 23 2012 05:33 Kibbelz wrote: [8 days this took me.. how long would it take you with the right tools?]
If we don't see eye-to-eye, just allow this: What if a silver league player were to practice, and then execute a build order exactly like DRG? Yes, the control will be lacking, but the units and tech will still all be there. This is not a build order from some random 4v4 guy, this is world-champion DongRaeGu. Yes, the build is likely going to be harder to learn; so to combat that, I included a build order 'Summary' (props to Hammer38) to make the build easier for people to memorize and execute; Imagine a silver-league Zerg player performing this build that allowed DRG to defeat DeMusliM at MLG:
It took you 8 days to go from gold to diamond in early October 2010. That's really not saying a whole lot. I did my SC2 placement in late August 2010 and 5 roach rushed my way into platinum. I soon dropped to gold when I stopped using roach rush cheese.
It takes a lot more than a build order to make it to diamond nowadays. Granted, a good build is one of the first steps for improvement.
Now there is SOME truth to incorporating a build and promotion. I went from gold to platinum when I started using pro build orders. With the ladder in its current state a pro build order will get a player to gold or plat depending on if the build is a cheese (macro games require more mechanics a lower level player needs to develop).
Day9 also asked a similar question about utilizing pro builds and even did a daily on stealing pro builds. It is #285 where he breaks down a practice-based system of learning a pro build in 15-25 custom games versus computers.
Holy sh... this is the perfect resource for a Zerg who is considering to switch races, as he'll be able to practice these builds! :o I am usually a high plat/low diamond Zerg, and if I offrace on another account as Protoss I hit about low plat-mid plat. Timings are the issue for me and I am sure I'll have a lot of use for the spreadsheet
Oh god, I was completely fooled by "the dream" at first. This sounds like an awesome idea though and would be really helpful. I'm not sure if google docs would be the best tool to use for it though.
Love it, i have been trying to use build orders recently but its just a pain in the ass to have it written down on paper all over the place. i look forward to a finished product!
Kibbelz , realy nice idea. Just some improvements:
1) Progamer have +2 BO's, but when I click on "DongRaeGu", by example, I can see only the BO that he used on MLG. I think that we can click the progamer name, then select the match (ZvZ, ZvT, ZvP, etc), then check the builds. Of course, you need provide a "generic builds" page.
2) In each BO you need to show "first seen date" (YYYY-MM-DD) and the game status (SC2 1.4.3 rev2). Soon some BO will be outdated, and that will help to track this.
I think this is a genius idea, Kibbelz! I am currently in the process of coaching a lot of my friends, as well as getting up my own website that is going to make free coaching available to all lower league players. I can't tell you how much easier that database would make my life, lol! Just having the ability to tell someone "This is your issue, I know the perfect build for you. Your homework is to go to the Build Order Compendium and learn Bombers 1 Rax Gasless FE build and come back to me once you can hit 11:00 3rd CC/Attack timing" would save me so much time and make everyone's life a lot easier for practicing.
EPT![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/U11Wq.jpg)
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