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Pro-Player Build Order Compendium

Forum Index > StarCraft 2 Strategy
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Kibbelz
Profile Joined March 2012
United States31 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-04-22 20:34:27
April 22 2012 20:33 GMT
#1
Hey Everyone,

To start, let me introduce myself. My name is Andrew Dunne, I go by 'Kibbelz' on the interwebs though. Although this account is new, this is not my first post on teamliquid, i formerly went by KibbelzNbits. Now, for the story...

....

It was a rainy day as I recall...

I brought home my brand-new painted cardboard box. Within it held the treasure I had been awaiting for longer than a man could possibly recall. A small disc. A Starcraft 2 Disc. I popped it in, went through the prompts, played my first few games, and placed into the "Gold League". Awesome! I just got it and I'm already gold! However my glee quickly faded as weeks turned into months of the Gold League. I found myself unable to improve at the game in any substantial way! I was trapped... in gold... Never to be promoted... until...

One day, I discovered a build order. It was a silly thing, something used in 4v4 by one of my opponents; but OH the EFFICIENCY! Every single mineral was always spent. Gas never pooled, minerals never accrued, not until after the 7:20 mark when the attack hit its timing, where my foes often fell! In three days I was Platinum. Six days later? Diamond. In case you don't believe me, here is a screenshot of my rank and a link to my sc2ranks profile: Sc2Ranks

[image loading]
[My skyrocketing rank October 4-12th, Eight days...)


Since that series of days back in early October 2010, I have ever since been fascinated by the Build Order. Not in an obsessive "I want to make the most efficient BO ever known to man" kind of way, but in a reverent, "respecting of its power" kind of form.

Today I am ranked #4 Master's. I've come a long way since 2010, coming to love eSports and pursuing everything in Starcraft from music videos, to joining a team to be a pro-player, to my current status of being a Caster for Playhem and MLG. Today however, I bring to you a proposition. This is something I have done in the past in some detail, but now seek to possibly pursue at great length. I wanted to write this post because I've been toying with the idea of construction a compendium of Pro-player build orders.


[image loading]
[The Dream]


Nine months ago I began watching replays from MLG Raleigh and MLG Orlando. I wasn't finding much success in commentary, but had gotten much better at the game with all of my practice. I felt that if I studied lots of pro build orders, I could increase my knowledge of not only the game in general, but also gain a vast knowledge of timings to keep an eye out for in my play. It was a way to improve, as, at that time, I was approaching GM and meeting some names on the ladder. I wanted any edge I could get.

Now, six months down the road, opportunities in commentary have risen abundantly. As such, I find myself wanting to have an extremely intricate understanding of the game once again.

That's where the compendium comes in. The meta-game has shifted a lot over the last six months; even still, I want to know it all. I want to know every in and every possible out of Starcraft 2.

I've begun writing a build order database, where not only myself, but any fan of Starcraft 2 can visit and find a list of build orders organized by race, and player, so that they can learn to execute top level builds.The compendium (simply called Kibbelz Pro Build Order Compendium for now), is located on Google Docs here: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AtCOlN-fmKT7dDBNLWU1a1d3QTU4a3FMXzB5UE5taFE]Kibbelz' Build Order Compendium (Google Doc)

The compendium is NOT what you see in the image at the start of the article! That is what I would like it to eventually reach; but countless hours of studying and recording replays will be required to transform it into something truly great.

Nine months back, I created all my builds in Excel spreadsheets. I don't think I will port all of the builds over, but some I will. I wasn't as meticulous when I recorded them, ignoring supply and harvesters and instead focusing on TIMES, because I was scouting for these builds as a Zerg.

[image loading]
[A build order from last year, note the lack of population info. I did about 50 of these, they are faster and easier than full BO's]


Getting the compendium to a point where it includes a comprehensive list of timings/builds is going to be tough, especially with pop counts. Many top-level games go for a very long time before either player is truly dealt damage. As such, many builds have timings that wrap up near 80-110 supply. They can take 30-60 minutes to transcribe into excel.

[image loading]
[This Macro-ish 1-1-1 style timing from MKP vs MC for instance, hits at ~10:30.]

I think it would be so cool to give all the knowledge in these replays to the community. There are many players, such as my best friend 'HEYron', that are stuck in lower leagues always struggling to improve. Mastering even a single build order is a HUGE step in the right direction.

What is important here is that performing an efficient build order gives you the understanding of what efficiency in Starcraft should FEEL like. For insance, I'm proud to let you know, that after I stopped relying on my build order for ladder games, I maintained my rank in diamond (albeit after a short dip back into platinum for a week or so). Furthermore, for players already top level, having many efficient build orders allows you to transition between similar builds and adapt what you want to do quickly.

[image loading]
[8 days this took me.. how long would it take you with the right tools?]

If we don't see eye-to-eye, just allow this: What if a silver league player were to practice, and then execute a build order exactly like DRG? Yes, the control will be lacking, but the units and tech will still all be there. This is not a build order from some random 4v4 guy, this is world-champion DongRaeGu. Yes, the build is likely going to be harder to learn; so to combat that, I included a build order 'Summary' (props to Hammer38) to make the build easier for people to memorize and execute; Imagine a silver-league Zerg player performing this build that allowed DRG to defeat DeMusliM at MLG:

[image loading]
[DRG's Roach-Bane "all-in" build from MLG Winter Championships]

Okay, so to stop being all hopeful and get real with you all... There are a million reasons I feel a comprehensive build order database could benefit the community. What I want to know is, do you feel the same way? I've posted to here and to Reddit asking this, and also giving a small plea for help. After recieving some feedback I'm actually not too sure that people feel the same way I do. I think polling you all at TeamLiquid would give me a good idea if I should put the time into this or not.

Please don't hesitate to let me know if you feel I'm wrong. I appreciate any feedback you guys have as well.

Oh and also if anyone else loves the idea, hit me up! KibbelzStarcraft@gmail.com, twitter.com/kibbelz, facebook.com/kibblypuff.

Thanks guys!

-Andrew "Kibbelz" Dunne
"Conventional wisdom notwithstanding, there is no reason either in football or in poetry why the two should not meet in a man's life if he has the weight and cares about the words" -Archibald MacLeish
Robin_thewonder
Profile Joined April 2011
154 Posts
April 22 2012 20:36 GMT
#2
Playhem fighting! Ok, time to read :p
Deezl
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States355 Posts
April 22 2012 20:37 GMT
#3
Top10 worthwhile projects. Liquipedia might be able to help.
Three hundred lives of men I have walked this world, and now I have no time.
IRL_Sinister
Profile Blog Joined May 2011
Ireland621 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-04-22 20:39:44
April 22 2012 20:37 GMT
#4
Nice idea. If you keep it up it's pretty incredible. Good luck.

EDIT: There's only 2 builds there now but it may be a good idea to add a Notes column in the original Google document so we get an idea of what the builds is and vs what race.
Enright
Profile Joined August 2011
9 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-04-22 21:06:00
April 22 2012 21:04 GMT
#5
This is probably the best idea I've ever seen. Truly will be an amazing resource for players of all skill levels. Looking forward to this thread's growth.


If there's anyway for other people to help out make this guide comprehensive, please let us know. I'm sure there are many competent people who would love to contribute to your idea.

Cheers
Amaterasu1234
Profile Joined November 2010
United States317 Posts
April 22 2012 21:55 GMT
#6
I think it's a wonderful idea, however, I believe you absolutely have to include notes on the situation the build is used, particularly for DRG's build.
SusaVile
Profile Joined April 2012
Portugal32 Posts
April 22 2012 22:10 GMT
#7
Do you want to do it like chess books?An opening build guide? kinda like: White starts with e4 is king's pawn, Black can go either Sicilian, alekhine, king's pawn, queen's gambit... Is it your idea, or do you want to just enumerate the possible openings?
"THIS IS YOUR PLAN???" - SCV
StevieWonder333
Profile Joined December 2011
55 Posts
April 22 2012 22:23 GMT
#8
It would be best if you tagged the build order next to a replay of a player doing it so the player can see for themselves when they should use it. Great idea though I love it.
J_Slim
Profile Joined May 2011
United States199 Posts
April 22 2012 23:05 GMT
#9
very nice. Definitely looks like it could be very helpful once it gets fleshed out.
Legalize it!
bpat
Profile Joined September 2011
United States157 Posts
April 22 2012 23:36 GMT
#10
This would be like a build order notebook accessible to everyone, awesome idea! Also if you could provide a VOD or replay for each build it'd help people understand how to execute it better.
parrradize
Profile Joined September 2011
Germany59 Posts
April 22 2012 23:36 GMT
#11
I really like the idea, keep it up Kibbelz!
MrPiccolo
Profile Joined September 2010
United Kingdom16 Posts
April 23 2012 00:08 GMT
#12
Kibbelz you are a hero! I remember you mentioned this one time on Reddit, so good to see it come closer to reality :D
Kibbelz
Profile Joined March 2012
United States31 Posts
April 23 2012 00:10 GMT
#13
On April 23 2012 08:36 bpat wrote:
This would be like a build order notebook accessible to everyone, awesome idea! Also if you could provide a VOD or replay for each build it'd help people understand how to execute it better.


Fantastic idea! I linked the replay packs but I'll make sure to provide a link to the actual replay in each build orders 'section'
"Conventional wisdom notwithstanding, there is no reason either in football or in poetry why the two should not meet in a man's life if he has the weight and cares about the words" -Archibald MacLeish
Kibbelz
Profile Joined March 2012
United States31 Posts
April 23 2012 00:14 GMT
#14
On April 23 2012 07:10 SusaVile wrote:
Do you want to do it like chess books?An opening build guide? kinda like: White starts with e4 is king's pawn, Black can go either Sicilian, alekhine, king's pawn, queen's gambit... Is it your idea, or do you want to just enumerate the possible openings?


I want this to be a reference place that you can go to in order to learn top-tier timings and openings. It's one thing to attempt to rush for a double-medivac drop; another entirely to do in the most efficient manner possible. Both high and low lvl players i think can benefit from this.

Regardless, what you mention is something that would also be a great idea. It would only take a day or so to make. I could make it and just include it separately i think.
"Conventional wisdom notwithstanding, there is no reason either in football or in poetry why the two should not meet in a man's life if he has the weight and cares about the words" -Archibald MacLeish
denzelz
Profile Blog Joined November 2009
United States604 Posts
April 23 2012 00:21 GMT
#15
How does this project differ from Liquidpedia? Why don't you just try to make the Builds section on Liquidpedia better?
KrakInDub
Profile Joined April 2012
Jamaica20 Posts
April 23 2012 00:29 GMT
#16
This is pretty sick man!

But how about adding the possible Matchup's for all of these Builds? Like DRG's Baneling Bust, does it work even in ZvZ or ZvP? Cause there still players who don't know it's an ZvT Build so would be good if you add these informations to them
MrPiccolo
Profile Joined September 2010
United Kingdom16 Posts
April 23 2012 00:29 GMT
#17
How does this project differ from Liquidpedia? Why don't you just try to make the Builds section on Liquidpedia better?


The Liquipedia builds section has become stagnant and crazy outdated, and this seems like a much more "open source" for people to contribute to imo. Also I feel spreadsheets have a bit more scope for containing all the build order information you could want, more concisely.
LlamaNamedOsama
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
United States1900 Posts
April 23 2012 00:38 GMT
#18
A project like this would be amazing. Liquipedia's list of builds are mostly undeveloped and often outdated. [just noticed I'm basically parroting the guy above me lol]
Dario Wünsch: I guess...Creator...met his maker *sunglasses*
Don.681
Profile Joined September 2010
Philippines189 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-04-23 02:44:04
April 23 2012 02:39 GMT
#19
IMO, TL Mods are too focused on post quality. Always looking at conduct and rule adherence. This is good, as if not for them TL would quickly turn into a whine form.

But, there are no truly innovative mods. We lack moderators that actually compile and arrange information for consumption. There's the "SC2 Strategy Recmmended Tread" but that's it. Basically the forum mantra is "use the damn search button".

I think there should be 2 kinds of mods: "Ban Mods" and "Content Mods". Content Mods are moderators that actually can shape the TL website to be a "browsable" instead of "searchable" hotebed of information for SC2.

People like Kibbelz should be one of these "Content Mods". Because there are people that have good strats but lack the discipline to make and readable guide.

There are actually people in this forum that enjoy compiling and arranging information. If TL can tap them, they probably could update the wiki daily and make it a masterpiece.

Because the random helpful guy making a brilliant thread is one thing. TL actually organizing these people and having them come up with a unified format to make a central browsable strategy compendium is another.

Imagine, Liquidpedia linking to google docs.

I love what you are trying to do Kibbelz!

SecondHand
Profile Blog Joined October 2011
United States329 Posts
April 23 2012 03:34 GMT
#20
Kibbelz you are awesome
Ladder more, win less
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