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On July 10 2012 15:22 Schaudenfraud wrote:Show nested quote +On July 06 2012 12:09 Caesar wrote:
So you guys who've gotten promoted out of Bronze following these, about how long would you say it takes usually? Do I have to be at the top of my division for some time before it happens(I usually stay in the top 3 as of late), or if I beat enough Silvers/Golds will I get promoted? Stupid questions, I know, but I've been in Bronze for far too long and want to get the hell out.. What happened to me was that I was in 1st place for quite some time. I had to win maybe 70%-75% of my games IIRC. I felt like I had to win way too many games consecutively to just get out of bronze. Once you hit top 25 bronze or something around there, I would personally move into silver or gold vids and builds. Note that I am a terran player, anyways, the "filter bronze mass marines" build doesn''t start to work at around top bronze I feel, so you'll have to move out of that build out of necessity and try out the filter expand builds from his silver or gold videos. Usually the 10 min timing push will kill bronzies and some silvers, but in the case you don't kill them the first time and since you aren't at filter's level this is likely, filter's gold build for terran and zerg is a great model for when to attack. If you don't kill them the first time, sometimes it's just a good idea to fall back because a lot of bronze and silver LOVE to want you to make a mistake so they build too many stationary defense or tech up way too early while ignoring SCVs, go back to your base, tech up, go for +2 +2, and move out when they're 75% done. Remember, the ten or 11 minute attack is a TIMING push that filter has taught you, because when you move out, speed is done, or stim is done, or your upgrades are done or nearly done. When I did get out of bronze, the system put me at #25 silver. There's a chance that your MMR is just better than some very fortunate silver player who deserves to get demoted. It seems you have to be above and beyond your own league to get out of it. I had to prove to the system that I was better than a whole lot of silver jobbers. gl hf, keep fighting!
There's some misunderstanding in how the ladder system works here.
First of all, there's not "just 1 bronze league skill level". There's different, hidden tiers of bronze leagues, which was discovered way back in season 1 (and i doubt this has changed). Being at the top of your division doesn't really mean anything, even if you discount the tier thing. Even if you keep playing against silver players and winning, that doesn't say much, since those silver players may be on their way to being demoted! On top of THAT, bronze league is by far the largest league. In Europe it's about 35% of total players. You have to prove to the system that you're good enough to be promoted 
As for the videos - Don't use your league and division to decide when to move up. As Filter himself says multiple times, move up when you're able to consistently hit the benchmarks, not before. You will struggle to get to the silver/gold/plat benchmarks if you can't hit the bronze ones! I'm in gold, but i still struggle hitting the silver ones. I can usually get the bronze, but it doesnt take much to throw me off. I haven't even started watching the gold ones yet.
Just keep at it. Because there's so many people in bronze at so many different skill levels (difference between bottom bronze-top bronze is way bigger than low silver-high plat) it will take a while to convince the system where you belong. Aside from that though, as many people have said before, league is not an accurate measure of skill, it's at best an estimate. It gets more accurate once you get to top diamond and above, but still.
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On July 11 2012 00:12 etherealfall wrote:Show nested quote +On July 10 2012 15:32 XenOsky- wrote:On July 06 2012 17:55 Isualin wrote:
is there a similiar guide for protoss race?(with benchmarks and builds getting harder in each part) i found this very helpful for new terran players but my protoss friend says(who is bronze) "we cant mass zealots and win" "T is OP" and stuff. tell him to mass blink stalkers then, i guess the concept is the same, if you outmacro your opponnent in lower leagues you are going to win no matter what. I think its harder to win with protoss with such a strategy. Consider a difference between 2zealots and 1 sentry and 2 stalkers. Which army wins will be very much so dependant on position and terrain and also what the opponent has. Until colossus pops, protoss is much less a-move than people would like to think. You can't actually just mass one protoss unit. Not in a macro orientated fashion.
The idea is to outmacro your opponent, not to kill him with your first 2 stalkers...
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Wanted to thank you for your videos Filter. I tried to show people the power of Macro through my mod, but this is a much better teaching tool IMO. I always understood that I should be constantly droning and producing, but never had a true sense of the context. You helped provide that for me. Some of the biggest things I took away from using what I learned in the videos are:
1) What the standard economic base should be and what the timings for getting their early, on time, and late feel like for myself and my opponents' races.
2) The power of conviction and the proof that being one step behind your opponent as Zerg is a blatant misconception.
3) The perspective to look at my game from top down and bottom up, instead of just the latter. I used to plan my game around an early build that had to defeat all the cheese and then take what the game gives me. I now can also look at Starcraft 2 by saying this is what my ideal initial Max Army will be, and then I work backwards to make it possible as early as I can. I know that sounds obvious, but it's very easy to remove yourself from an end-game or late mid-game strategy when 75% of your games never make it that far.
Thanks again Filter.
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On July 11 2012 19:20 XenOsky- wrote:Show nested quote +On July 11 2012 00:12 etherealfall wrote:On July 10 2012 15:32 XenOsky- wrote:On July 06 2012 17:55 Isualin wrote:
is there a similiar guide for protoss race?(with benchmarks and builds getting harder in each part) i found this very helpful for new terran players but my protoss friend says(who is bronze) "we cant mass zealots and win" "T is OP" and stuff. tell him to mass blink stalkers then, i guess the concept is the same, if you outmacro your opponnent in lower leagues you are going to win no matter what. I think its harder to win with protoss with such a strategy. Consider a difference between 2zealots and 1 sentry and 2 stalkers. Which army wins will be very much so dependant on position and terrain and also what the opponent has. Until colossus pops, protoss is much less a-move than people would like to think. You can't actually just mass one protoss unit. Not in a macro orientated fashion. The idea is to outmacro your opponent, not to kill him with your first 2 stalkers...
From the videos I watched from his terran guide, (which I applaud him for and will definitely use when I race switch), the idea is to make a lot of units.
I'll await him to make one for Protoss. I believe it's not simply how many but what that matters as well. We can agree to disagree on this, but the number of times I've died because due to a missed FF, sentry positioning/late FF etc - Protoss trades differently depending on the tech path but POORLY if it's simply gateway units.
And you simply missed my point with your post.
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On July 11 2012 22:16 etherealfall wrote:Show nested quote +On July 11 2012 19:20 XenOsky- wrote:On July 11 2012 00:12 etherealfall wrote:On July 10 2012 15:32 XenOsky- wrote:On July 06 2012 17:55 Isualin wrote:
is there a similiar guide for protoss race?(with benchmarks and builds getting harder in each part) i found this very helpful for new terran players but my protoss friend says(who is bronze) "we cant mass zealots and win" "T is OP" and stuff. tell him to mass blink stalkers then, i guess the concept is the same, if you outmacro your opponnent in lower leagues you are going to win no matter what. I think its harder to win with protoss with such a strategy. Consider a difference between 2zealots and 1 sentry and 2 stalkers. Which army wins will be very much so dependant on position and terrain and also what the opponent has. Until colossus pops, protoss is much less a-move than people would like to think. You can't actually just mass one protoss unit. Not in a macro orientated fashion. The idea is to outmacro your opponent, not to kill him with your first 2 stalkers... From the videos I watched from his terran guide, (which I applaud him for and will definitely use when I race switch), the idea is to make a lot of units. I'll await him to make one for Protoss. I believe it's not simply how many but what that matters as well. We can agree to disagree on this, but the number of times I've died because due to a missed FF, sentry positioning/late FF etc - Protoss trades differently depending on the tech path but POORLY if it's simply gateway units. And you simply missed my point with your post.
I think watching the zerg videos would be better than watching the terran videos if you are protoss since, in my opinion anyways, that the macro mechanics are more similar. He also shows himself beating a diamond terran using pure roach which most people wouldn't work because roaches aren't great ZvT.
The point is that because he has more stuff he wins. It is simply how much you make not so much what you make. You say you have dies a lot due to missed/late FF and sentry positioning. This is easy to see in a replay. What is hard to see is how much stuff you could have had at that point and the answer is probably more than enough to defeat him without using a single sentry.
As for your statement that gateway units trade poorly, didn't Parting popularize a mass gateway style? I would think that if gateway based play sucked the pros wouldn't use them
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I would agree that for Protoss in bronze we simply need to focus on making probes and units. That is the main point in Filter's bronze level Terran video. No you can't do too well with mass zealot because their attack mechanics are very different than marines, but I have been trying a zealot heavy army supported by stalkers on 2 base and just one gas seems to do ok. Again I am pumped for a Protoss version to see how my thought process compares to that of Filter.
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Yeh zealots do not scale well due to their melee attack. Say you have the same army size of zealots vs marines, e.g. 1000 minerals worth so 10 zealots vs 20 marines the zealots easily win. But as the army size increases the marines do better and at about 1600 mineral size (16 zealots vs 32 marines) the marines begin to win and as the army size continues to get bigger the more easily the marines win. This would kind of void the whole idea of winning with more stuff since the other guy can still win with less stuff once the armys get bigger so i guess you would have to go zealot stalker for bronze then include sentries and colossus in silver and gold then templar in platinum.
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played a guy yesterday who i thought was cheating because of amount of drones he had. I thought, " why else would someone do this, unless they're cheating?", boy was i surprised after he told me about these videos, i called him a cheater then, now i'm probably a good friend of his. Anyways, what i mean is, these videos should get you to plat, if not gm, so much information, concisely dedicated to the complete scrub, people pay to get these results! Thank you scfilter! Gl and HF!
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On July 11 2012 22:16 etherealfall wrote:Show nested quote +On July 11 2012 19:20 XenOsky- wrote:On July 11 2012 00:12 etherealfall wrote:On July 10 2012 15:32 XenOsky- wrote:On July 06 2012 17:55 Isualin wrote:
is there a similiar guide for protoss race?(with benchmarks and builds getting harder in each part) i found this very helpful for new terran players but my protoss friend says(who is bronze) "we cant mass zealots and win" "T is OP" and stuff. tell him to mass blink stalkers then, i guess the concept is the same, if you outmacro your opponnent in lower leagues you are going to win no matter what. I think its harder to win with protoss with such a strategy. Consider a difference between 2zealots and 1 sentry and 2 stalkers. Which army wins will be very much so dependant on position and terrain and also what the opponent has. Until colossus pops, protoss is much less a-move than people would like to think. You can't actually just mass one protoss unit. Not in a macro orientated fashion. The idea is to outmacro your opponent, not to kill him with your first 2 stalkers... From the videos I watched from his terran guide, (which I applaud him for and will definitely use when I race switch), the idea is to make a lot of units. I'll await him to make one for Protoss. I believe it's not simply how many but what that matters as well. We can agree to disagree on this, but the number of times I've died because due to a missed FF, sentry positioning/late FF etc - Protoss trades differently depending on the tech path but POORLY if it's simply gateway units. And you simply missed my point with your post.
What league are you in? I think you are wrong. You may have lost because of a missed FF, sentry positioning whatever. But you were probably in that position because of poor macro if you are still gold or below.
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In bronze it doesn't seem to matter about FF for Protoss, just focus on taking a quick natural and probe production. With this comes the ability to make more offensive units. In bronze I don't even bother with sentries. Get as many zealots and stalkers as you can by 10:00 min and push out.
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On July 12 2012 05:33 zefreak wrote:Show nested quote +On July 11 2012 22:16 etherealfall wrote:On July 11 2012 19:20 XenOsky- wrote:On July 11 2012 00:12 etherealfall wrote:On July 10 2012 15:32 XenOsky- wrote:On July 06 2012 17:55 Isualin wrote:
is there a similiar guide for protoss race?(with benchmarks and builds getting harder in each part) i found this very helpful for new terran players but my protoss friend says(who is bronze) "we cant mass zealots and win" "T is OP" and stuff. tell him to mass blink stalkers then, i guess the concept is the same, if you outmacro your opponnent in lower leagues you are going to win no matter what. I think its harder to win with protoss with such a strategy. Consider a difference between 2zealots and 1 sentry and 2 stalkers. Which army wins will be very much so dependant on position and terrain and also what the opponent has. Until colossus pops, protoss is much less a-move than people would like to think. You can't actually just mass one protoss unit. Not in a macro orientated fashion. The idea is to outmacro your opponent, not to kill him with your first 2 stalkers... From the videos I watched from his terran guide, (which I applaud him for and will definitely use when I race switch), the idea is to make a lot of units. I'll await him to make one for Protoss. I believe it's not simply how many but what that matters as well. We can agree to disagree on this, but the number of times I've died because due to a missed FF, sentry positioning/late FF etc - Protoss trades differently depending on the tech path but POORLY if it's simply gateway units. And you simply missed my point with your post. What league are you in? I think you are wrong. You may have lost because of a missed FF, sentry positioning whatever. But you were probably in that position because of poor macro if you are still gold or below.
I am high diamond. And perhaps i am. I should look at the z tutorials first i guess. But i stand by my statement re: gateway units trading poorly from midgame onwards.
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On July 12 2012 12:09 etherealfall wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2012 05:33 zefreak wrote:On July 11 2012 22:16 etherealfall wrote:On July 11 2012 19:20 XenOsky- wrote:On July 11 2012 00:12 etherealfall wrote:On July 10 2012 15:32 XenOsky- wrote:On July 06 2012 17:55 Isualin wrote:
is there a similiar guide for protoss race?(with benchmarks and builds getting harder in each part) i found this very helpful for new terran players but my protoss friend says(who is bronze) "we cant mass zealots and win" "T is OP" and stuff. tell him to mass blink stalkers then, i guess the concept is the same, if you outmacro your opponnent in lower leagues you are going to win no matter what. I think its harder to win with protoss with such a strategy. Consider a difference between 2zealots and 1 sentry and 2 stalkers. Which army wins will be very much so dependant on position and terrain and also what the opponent has. Until colossus pops, protoss is much less a-move than people would like to think. You can't actually just mass one protoss unit. Not in a macro orientated fashion. The idea is to outmacro your opponent, not to kill him with your first 2 stalkers... From the videos I watched from his terran guide, (which I applaud him for and will definitely use when I race switch), the idea is to make a lot of units. I'll await him to make one for Protoss. I believe it's not simply how many but what that matters as well. We can agree to disagree on this, but the number of times I've died because due to a missed FF, sentry positioning/late FF etc - Protoss trades differently depending on the tech path but POORLY if it's simply gateway units. And you simply missed my point with your post. What league are you in? I think you are wrong. You may have lost because of a missed FF, sentry positioning whatever. But you were probably in that position because of poor macro if you are still gold or below. I am high diamond. And perhaps i am. I should look at the z tutorials first i guess. But i stand by my statement re: gateway units trading poorly from midgame onwards.
Stalkers trade poorly, not zealots.Midgame on Stalkers are pretty terrible in all matchups with some exceptions. I agree to an extent with what you're saying, however I believe strong macro can easily carry you right into Diamond with Protoss. I've said it before on my stream, but I firmly believe that you can take two protoss players of exactly the same ladder rank and find drastically different skill between the two players. For Example:
Protoss A: Reads and reacts to his opponent, he plays a safe game and rarely if ever loses to something because of his build order. He makes the right decisions most of the time and does a great job of scouting, being active with his army etc.
Protoss B: Follows one build order to the tee, he loses often to early game pressure but wins with his lategame army. His scouting is poor, he cries about banshees and marine all ins and he tells terrans to learn to play when his lategame army crushes them.
Both have probably the same winrate, but because it's extremely difficult to take advantage to build order holes against protoss without already having something planned. One is clearly the better player but isn't rewarded for it.
My frustration with the design of the race from a Terran perspective is I don't have any way to react properly to the Protoss player stratagy. I want to play a macro style, but by being able to defend most of the junky allins toss players get I can't keep up with economic cheese sometimes. I'll quite often do the last shadow 6rax just to "skill check" toss players and get rid of the ones that are bad at scouting/use economic cheese and very thin defenses to get ahead.
I really think protoss needs a top to bottom overhaul in HoTS, and honestly I think everything protoss is being given for HoTS is extremely gimicky and does little to nothing to address the real problems of the race.
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On July 12 2012 13:26 Filter wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2012 12:09 etherealfall wrote:On July 12 2012 05:33 zefreak wrote:On July 11 2012 22:16 etherealfall wrote:On July 11 2012 19:20 XenOsky- wrote:On July 11 2012 00:12 etherealfall wrote:On July 10 2012 15:32 XenOsky- wrote:On July 06 2012 17:55 Isualin wrote:
is there a similiar guide for protoss race?(with benchmarks and builds getting harder in each part) i found this very helpful for new terran players but my protoss friend says(who is bronze) "we cant mass zealots and win" "T is OP" and stuff. tell him to mass blink stalkers then, i guess the concept is the same, if you outmacro your opponnent in lower leagues you are going to win no matter what. I think its harder to win with protoss with such a strategy. Consider a difference between 2zealots and 1 sentry and 2 stalkers. Which army wins will be very much so dependant on position and terrain and also what the opponent has. Until colossus pops, protoss is much less a-move than people would like to think. You can't actually just mass one protoss unit. Not in a macro orientated fashion. The idea is to outmacro your opponent, not to kill him with your first 2 stalkers... From the videos I watched from his terran guide, (which I applaud him for and will definitely use when I race switch), the idea is to make a lot of units. I'll await him to make one for Protoss. I believe it's not simply how many but what that matters as well. We can agree to disagree on this, but the number of times I've died because due to a missed FF, sentry positioning/late FF etc - Protoss trades differently depending on the tech path but POORLY if it's simply gateway units. And you simply missed my point with your post. What league are you in? I think you are wrong. You may have lost because of a missed FF, sentry positioning whatever. But you were probably in that position because of poor macro if you are still gold or below. I am high diamond. And perhaps i am. I should look at the z tutorials first i guess. But i stand by my statement re: gateway units trading poorly from midgame onwards. Stalkers trade poorly, not zealots.Midgame on Stalkers are pretty terrible in all matchups with some exceptions. I agree to an extent with what you're saying, however I believe strong macro can easily carry you right into Diamond with Protoss. I've said it before on my stream, but I firmly believe that you can take two protoss players of exactly the same ladder rank and find drastically different skill between the two players. For Example: Protoss A: Reads and reacts to his opponent, he plays a safe game and rarely if ever loses to something because of his build order. He makes the right decisions most of the time and does a great job of scouting, being active with his army etc. Protoss B: Follows one build order to the tee, he loses often to early game pressure but wins with his lategame army. His scouting is poor, he cries about banshees and marine all ins and he tells terrans to learn to play when his lategame army crushes them. Both have probably the same winrate, but because it's extremely difficult to take advantage to build order holes against protoss without already having something planned. One is clearly the better player but isn't rewarded for it. My frustration with the design of the race from a Terran perspective is I don't have any way to react properly to the Protoss player stratagy. I want to play a macro style, but by being able to defend most of the junky allins toss players get I can't keep up with economic cheese sometimes. I'll quite often do the last shadow 6rax just to "skill check" toss players and get rid of the ones that are bad at scouting/use economic cheese and very thin defenses to get ahead. I really think protoss needs a top to bottom overhaul in HoTS, and honestly I think everything protoss is being given for HoTS is extremely gimicky and does little to nothing to address the real problems of the race.
Well said! +1
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On July 12 2012 13:26 Filter wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2012 12:09 etherealfall wrote:On July 12 2012 05:33 zefreak wrote:On July 11 2012 22:16 etherealfall wrote:On July 11 2012 19:20 XenOsky- wrote:On July 11 2012 00:12 etherealfall wrote:On July 10 2012 15:32 XenOsky- wrote:On July 06 2012 17:55 Isualin wrote:
is there a similiar guide for protoss race?(with benchmarks and builds getting harder in each part) i found this very helpful for new terran players but my protoss friend says(who is bronze) "we cant mass zealots and win" "T is OP" and stuff. tell him to mass blink stalkers then, i guess the concept is the same, if you outmacro your opponnent in lower leagues you are going to win no matter what. I think its harder to win with protoss with such a strategy. Consider a difference between 2zealots and 1 sentry and 2 stalkers. Which army wins will be very much so dependant on position and terrain and also what the opponent has. Until colossus pops, protoss is much less a-move than people would like to think. You can't actually just mass one protoss unit. Not in a macro orientated fashion. The idea is to outmacro your opponent, not to kill him with your first 2 stalkers... From the videos I watched from his terran guide, (which I applaud him for and will definitely use when I race switch), the idea is to make a lot of units. I'll await him to make one for Protoss. I believe it's not simply how many but what that matters as well. We can agree to disagree on this, but the number of times I've died because due to a missed FF, sentry positioning/late FF etc - Protoss trades differently depending on the tech path but POORLY if it's simply gateway units. And you simply missed my point with your post. What league are you in? I think you are wrong. You may have lost because of a missed FF, sentry positioning whatever. But you were probably in that position because of poor macro if you are still gold or below. I am high diamond. And perhaps i am. I should look at the z tutorials first i guess. But i stand by my statement re: gateway units trading poorly from midgame onwards. Stalkers trade poorly, not zealots.Midgame on Stalkers are pretty terrible in all matchups with some exceptions. I agree to an extent with what you're saying, however I believe strong macro can easily carry you right into Diamond with Protoss. I've said it before on my stream, but I firmly believe that you can take two protoss players of exactly the same ladder rank and find drastically different skill between the two players. For Example: Protoss A: Reads and reacts to his opponent, he plays a safe game and rarely if ever loses to something because of his build order. He makes the right decisions most of the time and does a great job of scouting, being active with his army etc. Protoss B: Follows one build order to the tee, he loses often to early game pressure but wins with his lategame army. His scouting is poor, he cries about banshees and marine all ins and he tells terrans to learn to play when his lategame army crushes them. Both have probably the same winrate, but because it's extremely difficult to take advantage to build order holes against protoss without already having something planned. One is clearly the better player but isn't rewarded for it. My frustration with the design of the race from a Terran perspective is I don't have any way to react properly to the Protoss player stratagy. I want to play a macro style, but by being able to defend most of the junky allins toss players get I can't keep up with economic cheese sometimes. I'll quite often do the last shadow 6rax just to "skill check" toss players and get rid of the ones that are bad at scouting/use economic cheese and very thin defenses to get ahead. I really think protoss needs a top to bottom overhaul in HoTS, and honestly I think everything protoss is being given for HoTS is extremely gimicky and does little to nothing to address the real problems of the race.
I agree with your point re: ladder skill differences. Can't wait for your Protoss tutorials!
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Great, thank you!
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Filter,
Are you saying that playing as Protoss is maybe a poor decision for someone just a few months into the game, playing casually? Honestly I picked Protoss because I liked the warp gate tech. I haven't even touched Zerg and have just dabbled in Terran. While I enjoy playing as Protoss, I do get frustrated at times. Would you ever suggest a race switch or stick with what is comfortable?
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does this guide still viable when u reach masters? i cuzlosing to dumbshit all ins proxies and. pleasee is ti more about micro later on?????//
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On July 13 2012 01:44 Scorp_Wild wrote:
Filter,
Are you saying that playing as Protoss is maybe a poor decision for someone just a few months into the game, playing casually? Honestly I picked Protoss because I liked the warp gate tech. I haven't even touched Zerg and have just dabbled in Terran. While I enjoy playing as Protoss, I do get frustrated at times. Would you ever suggest a race switch or stick with what is comfortable?
stick with toss, toss is the easiest to play
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Hey, for any non-believers or people looking for some proof that these guides are worth it.
I'm a Platinum Toss player that had been in a rut for a while. A friend suggested I step away from toss for a while and try a different race. So I tried terran and these videos were the first thing I found when I went to look up some information so I at least could have some idea of wtf I was doing. Then, a friend offered me access to one of his smurf accounts that he had recently deranked to bronze.
Here is the match history of the account I have been using. http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/profile/2916770/1/ainEmpathy/matches
For the last week, all I have been doing is executing Filter's build orders specifically as they are laid out by him, to the best of my ability. After learning the new hotkeys for production and getting used to the differences in the macro cycle compared to toss, I am doing splendid with terran.
With as happy as I am with the results i'm getting, I thought it would be nice to share some faith with those who have overlooked this series and chalked it up to "too long to watch." Well I've watched these videos repeatedly since I started trying terran a little over a week ago and I'm only getting better. So I hope this post will maybe convince some people to give it a shot. Thanks a bunch, Filter!
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edit: sorry wrong thread.
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EPT
