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On May 21 2012 21:25 Natespank wrote:
Filter, I hate to say it but your strategies are completely 100% useless once you get into diamond. Before diamond this series will help you win every single game but I've hardly won a game against a diamond player in 2 weeks (except terran, I keep getting bio vs bio games which I can outmacro him now).
All that diamond league consists of is timing attacks, all-ins and cheese. The zerg players just macro up to an invincible army that no amount of mechanics can help me fight. Every toss just 4 or 8 gates me and not even 3 staggered bunkers can slow em down.
My mechanics are pretty consistent now, I hit every benchmark most games, except that they don't help me worth a damn against these enemy armies and because of all-ins I can't really test the 14 min benchmark vs real people. What the hell are bunkers, marines and marauders going to do for me early game against like 20 forcefields?
Best part is that about 1 in 4 will insult me after the game for using a macro strategy. I hate diamond players. Fucking douchebags...
I went from mid diamond to high diamond (low masters MMR) thanks to this guide. I'd say most zergs try to cheese me, some protoss do, and terrans rarely do. However, every cheese is scoutable and counterable. I assume if you are having trouble you either aren't scouting well enough, or are reacting incorrectly to what you scout. If you post replays of games you lost to cheeses maybe it would be easier to point out what you could change to better scout/react to your opppnents. In terms of matchup:
TvZ: You say the zerg players are macroing up to an invincible army. That doesn't seem like a problem with allins. But anyway, if you execute the 10 minute push correctly and the zerg has already taken their third, you usually have a good chance of killing their third or at the very least forcing a lot of units. If you expand and make production while they are busy making units to kills your push, you will come out ahead economically. Then it's just a matter of constantly applying pressure through drops, pushes, etc while you continue to expand and upgrade. if the zerg hasn't taken their third, you can usually assume 2 base muta if your scan saw a lair. However, 2 base infestor or some weird allin is also possible. In terms of zerg allins, their is one way to shut down every possibility of the zerg rolling you with a bust. Take the watchtowers. If lings kill your marines, send more. If the zerg continuously keeps killing your marines, that means he is desperate to not let you see the map, and that means an allin is probably coming. Throwing down 2 additional bunkers will only delay the build by about 10 seconds, and it is 100% worth it to be safe if you think a cheese is coming. When you scan (about 8:30 I find is best) if he has no lair, or a roach warren and a bling nest, expect an allin and throw down bunkers. If he allins you should win 100% of the time, because his forces will break againt the simcity and bunkers protecting yor natural, and then it's just a matter of rolling him with your superior economy.
TvP: Your inital scv scout will tell you if he expands or not. Once you have made sure he isn't 1 basing, things become relatively easy. Put a large group of the scvs at your nat under a hotkey so you can pull them quickly to repair your bunker if he does a weird allin. I usually get 2 bunkers just to be safe vs the 1 gate FE into 4 gate or gateway allin. Keep scouting, and you should be able to do significant damage with your 10 minute push by splitting your army using your medivacs and forcing him to make split second decisions about where to defend. Don't ever just charge blindly into his nat, because as you said, you will get FF'd to death. You just have to abuse your mobility. If a protoss has 20 forcefields at the 10 minuute mark you should win with drops because that means he has very few real units. Protoss are really greedy nowadays anyway, so you will be able to punish them when they tech too fast or go for a quick third.
TvT: Once again your first scv will usually be able to see if they went for an FE. When you 2nd OC finishes scan his main and try to identify his tech. Cloakshees and 1 base tank pushes aren't hard to hold off, you just have to remember to keep macroing and following your build while you take the required precautions.
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On May 22 2012 03:40 rofllocktree wrote:
you have apoint there, do you put the auto-repair scv's close to the bunker or do you just let them mine?
and what if they come with a warp in prisomn, then i have 3 full bunkers but way to late if he drops in the back of my base...
Patrol 2 of your marines along your borders?
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Hey Filter, being in bronze I really dig the guides, it was just what I needed. I've been getting the benchmarks down vs the AI, I'm fairly slow so it's taken quite a few games.
I'm wondering if there's a way to check the benchmarks just using SC2Gears? I've been trying to find an SCV count in there but can't... is there anything else I can go by just looking at SC2Gears analytics that the replay don't show well? Economy total spending maybe?
I played 4 games today and won 3 (lost to a 4 gate because I forgot to put down the bunker  ). It's just like you said... I just have more stuff.
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On May 22 2012 03:50 MaryJoana wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2012 03:40 rofllocktree wrote:
you have apoint there, do you put the auto-repair scv's close to the bunker or do you just let them mine?
and what if they come with a warp in prisomn, then i have 3 full bunkers but way to late if he drops in the back of my base... Patrol 2 of your marines along your borders?
Then I will not have a chance when he warps in 4 zealots and when he comes with stalkers to my bunkers I have 2 less marines and will not make it too.
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On May 22 2012 04:29 rofllocktree wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2012 03:50 MaryJoana wrote:On May 22 2012 03:40 rofllocktree wrote:
you have apoint there, do you put the auto-repair scv's close to the bunker or do you just let them mine?
and what if they come with a warp in prisomn, then i have 3 full bunkers but way to late if he drops in the back of my base... Patrol 2 of your marines along your borders? Then I will not have a chance when he warps in 4 zealots and when he comes with stalkers to my bunkers I have 2 less marines and will not make it too.
Pull some workers. A 4-gate isn't very economical, so even if you lose some SCVs you're far ahead.
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On May 22 2012 03:05 rofllocktree wrote:first of all, thanx for this great thread, realy helped my macro. Especially the benchmarks are very cool. I can build it up till 10 minutes allmost perfectly, I'm a silver playing mainly gold players. TvT and TvZ I do pretty fine with this build, but TvP I get 4-gated allmost 80% of the time. I can not scout it, I can not recognize it, and most of all I just can't defend it. Is this just one of the bad sides about this build, that we focus so much on being on our top of strength at 10:00, that we are fairly weak between 5-9 minutes? So how can I scout it, how can I defend it and how can I finally enjoy the game again against protos, now it's making me just sick, building 10 minutes and poof, gg thanx again for this thread 
Let me 1st say, thank you to Filter for making these great tutorials! I actually been doing a macro 2rax build from another thread, before these tutorials were made. Even so the bronze benchmarks, I have practiced against the computer and have improved my macro alot. And I will probably be trying the silver tutorials on ladder, in the future. I'm high bronze, but don't play alot of games. Only 37 wins this seasons, so probably not more than like 70 games. Zerg is my hardest MU, and I've recently gone to the mass marine build, like filter's bronze tutorial, but I don't wait until 10 minutes. You can try continually streaming small groups of 3-4 marines (a-move). They auto spread themselves out and make baneling trades much less economical for the zerg. You can scout this way too, attack multiple targets and clear out watch towers. Target their newest bases, which are less defended. It's all about destroying their economy and give the zerg multi stuff to react to.
So to answer the original question, let me introduce the 2rax macro build. It's much like filter's style of macro build. Very powerful against protosss. It's my easiest matchup now and used to be my hardest. I win most games against Toss and I been playing some silver and even beat a gold. Here is a link to the thread: [G] How to get out of bronze w/ macro (not cheese)
Basically you get 2rax, reactor and techlab. Only 1 gas is needed. Research combat shields. Keep making scv, supply depot, marine & marauder. By 7 minutes you have 13marines & 4 marauders. A-move to enemy base. 7:30 expand to natural. 8:00 build 2 more rax. 10:30 expand 3rd. 11:00 2nd A-move attack. 12:00 build 4 more rax. You money is exploding at this point. Now you keep expanding at 5 minute intevals (15:00, 20:00, 25:00, etc) Typcially the game ends at like 13-14 minutes, they get killed by 2nd attack.
Summary:
attack (7 & 11 minutes)
build rax (8 & 12 minutes)
expand (7:30, 10:30, 15 minutes)
Here is a master's replay someone posted in the Toss help me thread about a 8:00 MM push. It show the initial part of the build almost exactly, except he went factory>starport>medivac instead of building 2 extra rax: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=251528¤tpage=237#4732
Here is a direct link to the replay if the above link fails : replay
If the 4 gate comes at 6 minutes, you haven't expanded yet, so much safer. Althought, most Toss I play don't 4 gate.
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So to answer the original question, let me introduce the 2rax macro build. It's much like filter's style of macro build.
Umm no? One expands at 3:45 and the other expands at 07:30. That is quite some difference.
Here is a master's replay someone posted in the Toss help me thread about a 8:00 MM push. It show the initial part of the build almost exactly, except he went factory>starport>medivac instead of building 2 extra rax: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=251528¤tpage=237#4732Here is a direct link to the replay if the above link fails : replayIf the 4 gate comes at 6 minutes, you haven't expanded yet, so much safer. Althought, most Toss I play don't 4 gate.
I don't even get why the toss gg'd there. He has 5 healthy stalkers and 3 sentries and a forward pylon and the terran has 9 not so healthy marines plus medivacs. Strange game.
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I had to drudge up my long lost TeamLiquid account to post in this thread. Your guides are amazing. I'm working on your silver league benchmarks now, and this is where I'm consistantly at @ 10:00! (Usually with lower resources, had a slip up on this run with when I made my gas! oops!) I'm doing this in normal games to, but hopped into vs AI just to show. Going to get promoted soon! :D Winning almost all my games (Darn you banelings!)
EDIT: Sorry, can't seem to make the picture smaller. Right Click -> View Image to see the whole thing!
EDITEDIT: Just took the picture out, left the link.
http://oi47.tinypic.com/2i6yzrt.jpg
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These videos are awesome! Thank you and keep up the good work.
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On May 22 2012 07:39 tbirdd wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2012 03:05 rofllocktree wrote:first of all, thanx for this great thread, realy helped my macro. Especially the benchmarks are very cool. I can build it up till 10 minutes allmost perfectly, I'm a silver playing mainly gold players. TvT and TvZ I do pretty fine with this build, but TvP I get 4-gated allmost 80% of the time. I can not scout it, I can not recognize it, and most of all I just can't defend it. Is this just one of the bad sides about this build, that we focus so much on being on our top of strength at 10:00, that we are fairly weak between 5-9 minutes? So how can I scout it, how can I defend it and how can I finally enjoy the game again against protos, now it's making me just sick, building 10 minutes and poof, gg thanx again for this thread Let me 1st say, thank you to Filter for making these great tutorials! I actually been doing a macro 2rax build from another thread, before these tutorials were made. Even so the bronze benchmarks, I have practiced against the computer and have improved my macro alot. And I will probably be trying the silver tutorials on ladder, in the future. I'm high bronze, but don't play alot of games. Only 37 wins this seasons, so probably not more than like 70 games. Zerg is my hardest MU, and I've recently gone to the mass marine build, like filter's bronze tutorial, but I don't wait until 10 minutes. You can try continually streaming small groups of 3-4 marines (a-move). They auto spread themselves out and make baneling trades much less economical for the zerg. You can scout this way too, attack multiple targets and clear out watch towers. Target their newest bases, which are less defended. It's all about destroying their economy and give the zerg multi stuff to react to. So to answer the original question, let me introduce the 2rax macro build. It's much like filter's style of macro build. Very powerful against protosss. It's my easiest matchup now and used to be my hardest. I win most games against Toss and I been playing some silver and even beat a gold. Here is a link to the thread: [G] How to get out of bronze w/ macro (not cheese) Basically you get 2rax, reactor and techlab. Only 1 gas is needed. Research combat shields. Keep making scv, supply depot, marine & marauder. By 7 minutes you have 13marines & 4 marauders. A-move to enemy base. 7:30 expand to natural. 8:00 build 2 more rax. 10:30 expand 3rd. 11:00 2nd A-move attack. 12:00 build 4 more rax. You money is exploding at this point. Now you keep expanding at 5 minute intevals (15:00, 20:00, 25:00, etc) Typcially the game ends at like 13-14 minutes, they get killed by 2nd attack. Summary: attack (7 & 11 minutes) build rax (8 & 12 minutes) expand (7:30, 10:30, 15 minutes) Here is a master's replay someone posted in the Toss help me thread about a 8:00 MM push. It show the initial part of the build almost exactly, except he went factory>starport>medivac instead of building 2 extra rax: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=251528¤tpage=237#4732Here is a direct link to the replay if the above link fails : replayIf the 4 gate comes at 6 minutes, you haven't expanded yet, so much safer. Althought, most Toss I play don't 4 gate.
I used to use this build and it helped a lot, but it is not nearly as powerful or as helpful as filters 1raxFE guide.
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On May 22 2012 04:29 rofllocktree wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2012 03:50 MaryJoana wrote:On May 22 2012 03:40 rofllocktree wrote:
you have apoint there, do you put the auto-repair scv's close to the bunker or do you just let them mine?
and what if they come with a warp in prisomn, then i have 3 full bunkers but way to late if he drops in the back of my base... Patrol 2 of your marines along your borders? Then I will not have a chance when he warps in 4 zealots and when he comes with stalkers to my bunkers I have 2 less marines and will not make it too.
Have a marine stand somewhat in front of your base and then have an eye on the minimap so you can react, when you see him coming. If you make it, you can run the marine back, before it dies, but more importantly, you have some time to get SCVs to the Bunker and patroling Marines (from above) to the front.
I died to a 4-gate too last weekend, but I think I know what my fault was. Filter usually walls his natural off in the videos (with Depots next to the Bunker), which I didn't. It was very close, so I guess the full wall may have been that little thing to save me.
I also played that 2Rax BO for a while and it got me a good number of wins, but it's a little too much of a coinflip for my taste. If the opponent FEs and can hold the push, you're so far behind that you can almost gg. Also I found out that with a 1RaxFE you can nearly have the same amount of MM at the 7min mark, just without Stim, but as defender with Bunkers up. So the 2Rax wouldn't beat the 1RaxFE in a direct confrontation.
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On May 21 2012 23:37 BurningRanger wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2012 22:55 Snoodles wrote:On May 21 2012 20:41 IBringUFire wrote:
You still have to do other stuff while hitting the benchmarks. Do drops. Distract your opponent. Harass. Add specific units versus specific units. If he attacks with banelings, split your marines. Focus fire the blings.
If he attacks with Colossus, focus fire those with your vikings. EMP templars. etc etc.
You're supposed to hit the benchmarks while doing all of this.
This playstyle gives you the background to sustain solid production, to be able to support your splits and drops and harasses and engagements with an army right for the amount of time that has passed in the game not more, not less. If you're doing all that stuff you're playing at a higher level than gold level benchmarks. I think IBringUFire has missed the point of this training a bit. Playing silver benchmarks is actually doing other stuff while hitting the Bronze benchmarks.
See? That's exactly what I said. Do other stuff while still hitting the benchmarks.
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First off, great effort. This guide is awesome and very clear.
However, there's always some kind of problem. Filter says you will win lots of games if you just make a lot of stuff. I hit all the bronze benchmarks perfectly but for some reason the opponent always out-techs me and comes flying in with upgraded marines, medivacs, and marauders before I even move out... Kind of disheartening haha.
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On May 22 2012 21:56 IonRealm wrote:
First off, great effort. This guide is awesome and very clear.
However, there's always some kind of problem. Filter says you will win lots of games if you just make a lot of stuff. I hit all the bronze benchmarks perfectly but for some reason the opponent always out-techs me and comes flying in with upgraded marines, medivacs, and marauders before I even move out... Kind of disheartening haha.
It's very helpful if you show some replays, to analyze what went wrong and where
Also, bronze league?
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On May 22 2012 22:56 MaryJoana wrote:It's very helpful if you show some replays, to analyze what went wrong and where Also, bronze league?
Hey!
Yup, bronze. I have not been playing for long at all, like 2 weeks...
For example this last game: http://drop.sc/184853
Just as I wanted to move out, I noticed that he dropped in my main. Now of course this has to do with me not being aware of what he is doing at his base, but that is a compromise in this exercise.
So naturally I moved my marines back in but it was too late haha.
I can point out tons of flaws in my play of course, but stuff like this constantly happens. Lack of tech is holding me back it seems.
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You know what's so amazing as you follow these guides? You can look at a replay, open up the production tab, speed it up to x8, and just watch your SCV production. There's always one, until you get your expo, and then there is always 2. Always. As long as you are following the guide, there will never not be 2 SCVs in production, and that's just amazing to me. Probes and Pylons FTW!
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IonRealm, looking at your replay, your opponent is also hitting the same benchmarks you are, yet he has moved on to what you will be doing in the next lessons. Soon you will be able to hit those benchmarks and incorporate tech as well.
A couple of things you could have done better with the mass marine push:
* Don't show all your marines at the front. He scanned it and had plenty of time to prepare a wall off.
* Make sure you push at 10:00. You waited 30-40 seconds before you went.
As soon as you saw him attacking your main, you retreated back accross the map to defend, but only a fraction of your units ever did any fighting due to being channelled by your buildings. Personally I would have just gone for a base trade knowing that I have a significant numbers advantage when I get to his base, and a ton of barracks producing at home and that could've handled the defence (or at least slowed the destruction of my main).
All in all though it was good. The game says you lost, but you won. Your only target was to hit the benchmarks in a live game and you did it.
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On May 23 2012 01:16 bigtabs wrote:
IonRealm, looking at your replay, your opponent is also hitting the same benchmarks you are, yet he has moved on to what you will be doing in the next lessons. Soon you will be able to hit those benchmarks and incorporate tech as well.
A couple of things you could have done better with the mass marine push:
* Don't show all your marines at the front. He scanned it and had plenty of time to prepare a wall off.
* Make sure you push at 10:00. You waited 30-40 seconds before you went.
As soon as you saw him attacking your main, you retreated back accross the map to defend, but only a fraction of your units ever did any fighting due to being channelled by your buildings. Personally I would have just gone for a base trade knowing that I have a significant numbers advantage when I get to his base, and a ton of barracks producing at home and that could've handled the defence (or at least slowed the destruction of my main).
All in all though it was good. The game says you lost, but you won. Your only target was to hit the benchmarks in a live game and you did it.
Correct, I was a little late on the push. Is it also wise to put buildings in a cleaner order? Like usually I'll just slam barracks down wherever there is room, same with depots... I think I'm going to try having them in clean rows, makes it a bit more clear.
Where'd you advice to rally the marines? Keep them in the main, rally them further out?
Thanks for the reply!
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I got linked this and they are absolutely the best series of videos I've seen on how to learn Starcraft. Thanks, filter!
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Holy crap, these videos helped me so much. They just helped me macro my way out of a lost game where I got cannon rushed, before I just would of GGd and gtfo, but I knew I could out macro this guy! And I did! It felt so good to win this game! Here it is, check it out:
http://drop.sc/185018
The game lasted like 40 minutes, it just happened and I'm still kind of on a high, lol. After I got cannon rushed I tried to keep up the method, always scvs, always units, look at the minimap, look at my resources, I slipped up a lot, but I think I did okay for my ability. (Silver league, getting a lot better with these videos though!)
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EPT
