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On May 21 2012 06:10 TheExodus wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2012 04:18 Snoodles wrote:On May 20 2012 02:19 TheExodus wrote:
ARE terran and zerg easier for noobs during the first 17 minutes, or am I just a biased protoss? Play a standard TvP in your league then come back and say that. Well, a protoss army that tries to a-move at 10 minutes gets steamrolled by any race really. We need colossi in order to do that, which means we need to get into the mid-game in order to stand a chance. In order to a-move off of 2 bases we really need to go all-in. Which means we need to get our third up, and once we do that our opponent has usually teched up enough to make serious dents in our armies...
First of all, a protoss complaining about not being able to a-move to victory literally made me laugh out loud. you have to understand that the game is balanced, but not at all times. There are timing windows where one race can exploit their newly gained advantage (collosi,medivacs, upgrades etc.), and turn that into a late game advantage where things balance out.terran medivacs hit at ten minutes, making the edge go to the terran for the next ~6 minutes until protoss can get out collosi HT etc. expecting to be able to a-move to victory is silly, ludicrous, and insulting to players who take pride in their micro. i suggest learning the flow of the game, putting pressure on terran around the 7-8 minute mark before medis hit, ALWAYS put pressure on zerg around the 6-8 minute mark or you will get rolled by drones lol. and i find it confusing you are somehow unhappy about the fact that you HAVE to get collosi out, protoss' strength lies in its tier 3 more than terran, and possibly more than zerg.
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a smart guy once said
"every single human beeing can get to grandmaster by just simply having no downtime in his workerproduction"
yes, it was me!
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Filter, I hate to say it but your strategies are completely 100% useless once you get into diamond. Before diamond this series will help you win every single game but I've hardly won a game against a diamond player in 2 weeks (except terran, I keep getting bio vs bio games which I can outmacro him now).
All that diamond league consists of is timing attacks, all-ins and cheese. The zerg players just macro up to an invincible army that no amount of mechanics can help me fight. Every toss just 4 or 8 gates me and not even 3 staggered bunkers can slow em down.
My mechanics are pretty consistent now, I hit every benchmark most games, except that they don't help me worth a damn against these enemy armies and because of all-ins I can't really test the 14 min benchmark vs real people. What the hell are bunkers, marines and marauders going to do for me early game against like 20 forcefields?
Best part is that about 1 in 4 will insult me after the game for using a macro strategy. I hate diamond players. Fucking douchebags...
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293 Posts
On May 21 2012 20:51 SFGIANTS91 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2012 06:10 TheExodus wrote:On May 21 2012 04:18 Snoodles wrote:On May 20 2012 02:19 TheExodus wrote:
ARE terran and zerg easier for noobs during the first 17 minutes, or am I just a biased protoss? Play a standard TvP in your league then come back and say that. Well, a protoss army that tries to a-move at 10 minutes gets steamrolled by any race really. We need colossi in order to do that, which means we need to get into the mid-game in order to stand a chance. In order to a-move off of 2 bases we really need to go all-in. Which means we need to get our third up, and once we do that our opponent has usually teched up enough to make serious dents in our armies... First of all, a protoss complaining about not being able to a-move to victory literally made me laugh out loud. you have to understand that the game is balanced, but not at all times. There are timing windows where one race can exploit their newly gained advantage (collosi,medivacs, upgrades etc.), and turn that into a late game advantage where things balance out.terran medivacs hit at ten minutes, making the edge go to the terran for the next ~6 minutes until protoss can get out collosi HT etc. expecting to be able to a-move to victory is silly, ludicrous, and insulting to players who take pride in their micro. i suggest learning the flow of the game, putting pressure on terran around the 7-8 minute mark before medis hit, ALWAYS put pressure on zerg around the 6-8 minute mark or you will get rolled by drones lol. and i find it confusing you are somehow unhappy about the fact that you HAVE to get collosi out, protoss' strength lies in its tier 3 more than terran, and possibly more than zerg.
I think you kind of missed my point, which was that in order to win through a-moving (which in the lower leagues serms to work fine for terrans and zergs at 10 minutes) you need t3 tech as protoss, which comes later. If you go back and read my original post (or expand all the quotes) you'll hopefully see that's what I said. If not I was probably unclear.
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On May 21 2012 20:41 IBringUFire wrote:
You still have to do other stuff while hitting the benchmarks. Do drops. Distract your opponent. Harass. Add specific units versus specific units. If he attacks with banelings, split your marines. Focus fire the blings.
If he attacks with Colossus, focus fire those with your vikings. EMP templars. etc etc.
You're supposed to hit the benchmarks while doing all of this.
This playstyle gives you the background to sustain solid production, to be able to support your splits and drops and harasses and engagements with an army right for the amount of time that has passed in the game not more, not less.
If you're doing all that stuff you're playing at a higher level than gold level benchmarks.
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On May 21 2012 22:55 Snoodles wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2012 20:41 IBringUFire wrote:
You still have to do other stuff while hitting the benchmarks. Do drops. Distract your opponent. Harass. Add specific units versus specific units. If he attacks with banelings, split your marines. Focus fire the blings.
If he attacks with Colossus, focus fire those with your vikings. EMP templars. etc etc.
You're supposed to hit the benchmarks while doing all of this.
This playstyle gives you the background to sustain solid production, to be able to support your splits and drops and harasses and engagements with an army right for the amount of time that has passed in the game not more, not less. If you're doing all that stuff you're playing at a higher level than gold level benchmarks.
I think IBringUFire has missed the point of this training a bit. Playing silver benchmarks is actually doing other stuff while hitting the Bronze benchmarks. 
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People, you have to remember this series has been out for like a month now. There A LOT of people who use it but don't post anywhere. It is a fact that the average skill level of all leagues will rise as a direct consequence of this series.
The success rate of using these strats is also an average. If you happen to be matched against 10 all-inners in a row that doesn't mean "diamond is all about allins" or worse "EU bronze > NA bronze", etc. It means "I happen to encounter a lot of allins around my division/mmr/whatever". If you play enough games, things balance out.
I frankly find it extremely weird that people are treating the benchmarks, and the video labeling as some sort "cheat code" (air quotes) that once known will unlock the next league automatically (by virtue of winning every single game ez of course). I also find odd that people are still missing the point of the no micro handicap.
Personally I'm using the plat benchmarks on my climb of bronze that I started a couple weeks ago. I'm #7 on bronze right now, and have started to be matched against gold. I've won 18 games, lost 11. Many of the ones I lost I did because of a bad decision on my part, such as religiously going for medivacs at 10 when I had a guy doing a 1base siege push on my nat on entombed. Had I built siege tanks I'd have cleaned that up easily. Had I built a few hellions I'd have crushed his marines. Even if I did go the medivacs route 1 bus worth of marines would have wiped his 17 workers and I'd have won. I just had to *use my head*. I had the tools, the production and the economy. I just made a bad call. It would be ridiculous for me to somehow claim this series doesn't work well or that the leagues are mislabeled.
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Great Video Series... Feel so much better about my game!
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Yeah the point of it is to just focus on one aspect of play at a time. Then add another until you can handle and understand both at the same time, then another.
What makes peoples play so weak at lower leagues a lot of the time is trying to do everything at once and just completely failing at doing even one single aspect of their play really well.
Thanks for the effort Filter, had pretty good success so far.
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On May 21 2012 23:42 enanoretozon wrote:
People, you have to remember this series has been out for like a month now. There A LOT of people who use it but don't post anywhere. It is a fact that the average skill level of all leagues will rise as a direct consequence of this series.
The success rate of using these strats is also an average. If you happen to be matched against 10 all-inners in a row that doesn't mean "diamond is all about allins" or worse "EU bronze > NA bronze", etc. It means "I happen to encounter a lot of allins around my division/mmr/whatever". If you play enough games, things balance out.
I frankly find it extremely weird that people are treating the benchmarks, and the video labeling as some sort "cheat code" (air quotes) that once known will unlock the next league automatically (by virtue of winning every single game ez of course). I also find odd that people are still missing the point of the no micro handicap.
Personally I'm using the plat benchmarks on my climb of bronze that I started a couple weeks ago. I'm #7 on bronze right now, and have started to be matched against gold. I've won 18 games, lost 11. Many of the ones I lost I did because of a bad decision on my part, such as religiously going for medivacs at 10 when I had a guy doing a 1base siege push on my nat on entombed. Had I built siege tanks I'd have cleaned that up easily. Had I built a few hellions I'd have crushed his marines. Even if I did go the medivacs route 1 bus worth of marines would have wiped his 17 workers and I'd have won. I just had to *use my head*. I had the tools, the production and the economy. I just made a bad call. It would be ridiculous for me to somehow claim this series doesn't work well or that the leagues are mislabeled.
You're still doing too much. I literally a-moved out of Bronze into Silver on the Euro server, no engineering bay upgrades or medivacs. If you're still in bronze you should not be making decisions like that, it still affects your benchmarks whether you like to admit it or not.
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Filter, I hate to say it but your strategies are completely 100% useless once you get into diamond
These "strategies" are specifically designed for people under the diamond level and Filter states numerous times these are not legit strats/builds but rather exercises for improving. He's trying to teach low level players a specific macro philosophy, not trying to put forward a useful strategy for the higher leagues.
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On May 22 2012 00:33 PhobosSC wrote:Show nested quote +Filter, I hate to say it but your strategies are completely 100% useless once you get into diamond These "strategies" are specifically designed for people under the diamond level and Filter states numerous times these are not legit strats/builds but rather exercises for improving. He's trying to teach low level players a specific macro philosophy, not trying to put forward a useful strategy for the higher leagues.
Pretty much jumped from high silver to low diamond with his videos. They will strenghten your macro so much its insane, if you already have a decent game-sense this guide is best you can find. Going to try out his zerg-videos pretty soon aswell.
But I must say, the higher league you get the more cheese and all-in i see. People in the lower leagues, bronze silver, are really trying hard how to learn macro games but the higher leagues just try diffrent types of all-ins and when they fail they just GG out. 90% of my games are easier at low diamond than gold league. However the strong diamond macro-players still run over me.
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On May 22 2012 00:31 Snoodles wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2012 23:42 enanoretozon wrote:
People, you have to remember this series has been out for like a month now. There A LOT of people who use it but don't post anywhere. It is a fact that the average skill level of all leagues will rise as a direct consequence of this series.
The success rate of using these strats is also an average. If you happen to be matched against 10 all-inners in a row that doesn't mean "diamond is all about allins" or worse "EU bronze > NA bronze", etc. It means "I happen to encounter a lot of allins around my division/mmr/whatever". If you play enough games, things balance out.
I frankly find it extremely weird that people are treating the benchmarks, and the video labeling as some sort "cheat code" (air quotes) that once known will unlock the next league automatically (by virtue of winning every single game ez of course). I also find odd that people are still missing the point of the no micro handicap.
Personally I'm using the plat benchmarks on my climb of bronze that I started a couple weeks ago. I'm #7 on bronze right now, and have started to be matched against gold. I've won 18 games, lost 11. Many of the ones I lost I did because of a bad decision on my part, such as religiously going for medivacs at 10 when I had a guy doing a 1base siege push on my nat on entombed. Had I built siege tanks I'd have cleaned that up easily. Had I built a few hellions I'd have crushed his marines. Even if I did go the medivacs route 1 bus worth of marines would have wiped his 17 workers and I'd have won. I just had to *use my head*. I had the tools, the production and the economy. I just made a bad call. It would be ridiculous for me to somehow claim this series doesn't work well or that the leagues are mislabeled. You're still doing too much. I literally a-moved out of Bronze into Silver on the Euro server, no engineering bay upgrades or medivacs. If you're still in bronze you should not be making decisions like that, it still affects your benchmarks whether you like to admit it or not.
I probably am trying to do too much. The thing, however is that I've spent a lot of time this month offline. I've been practicing against AI for literally hundreds of games and have worked my way up to plat benchmarks. I just had not tried them on people and naturally with human pressure I've been missing a few scvs and factory/starport timings and sometimes don't get to repair my bunkers on time.
Still I feel 29 games played is a very small amount, I got no complaints about my success rate so far. Most of my losses are against high silver and low gold people. Do you think I should downgrade the stuff I'm building or just keep at it until I can hit the benchmarks against humans?
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293 Posts
Oh, one thing I noticed; if you knock on your enemy's door early (i took my first zealot and stalker) and kill like one stray marine it's not uncommon for them, in silver and bronze atleast, to stop making workers for the next couple of minutes. So funny especially when you after the game notice that because of that they made like 25 workers total.
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oh my god, thank you so much!! Those are really nice videos
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I would like to say: thank you. I've always felt so clueless playing, never, ever, had a plan. Thanks to your guide I have something to work towards. I'm silver, played 2 games, both gold. Lost one to stupid mistake and won one pretty convincing.
I feel like I could get a lot further with your guidance, instead of just grinding games.
Thanks!
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first of all, thanx for this great thread, realy helped my macro. Especially the benchmarks are very cool.
I can build it up till 10 minutes allmost perfectly, I'm a silver playing mainly gold players.
TvT and TvZ I do pretty fine with this build, but TvP I get 4-gated allmost 80% of the time. I can not scout it, I can not recognize it, and most of all I just can't defend it.
Is this just one of the bad sides about this build, that we focus so much on being on our top of strength at 10:00, that we are fairly weak between 5-9 minutes?
So how can I scout it, how can I defend it and how can I finally enjoy the game again against protos, now it's making me just sick, building 10 minutes and poof, gg
thanx again for this thread
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park you're scv in is natural's mineral line, if he hasn't expanded by 5 minutes, just build two extra bunkers and and put some scvs on auto repair. I'm only a silver terran myself, but that seems to work for me. Because the protoss hasn't expanded, the two extra bunkers will ake no difference, you will still be way ahead in economy.
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you have apoint there, do you put the auto-repair scv's close to the bunker or do you just let them mine?
and what if they come with a warp in prisomn, then i have 3 full bunkers but way to late if he drops in the back of my base...
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Hey filter Been following you on the tube (youtube that is) for a while now. What an awesome series of vids u created, I find myself even watching them a 2nd or 3rd time even (Episode 10 and up for terrans). Sometimes to pump myself up b4 ladder, I go to your channel and hear your calm and soothing voice to help me prepare for the ladder battles!
Downloaded all the replay packs from plat and up. Thanks man, much appreciated.
Ty for helping fellow gamers, like myself with focusing their laddering experience. By creating the benchmarks you laid out (which i copy pasted into my paint so I have my goals) you have rid me of a long term ladder anxiety and I feel I am finally improving. And if I lose well, it's because of 2 reasons. I didn't execute my BO and strategy properly (it's never quite perfect is it? hehe ) or I died to some early all in, or timing (e..g 2 base timing from protoss, or even 1 base) I study the game and see how to read and scout better, and prepare in a better way (lay more bunkers down, pull SCVs quicker, get siege mode faster, or even cancel my expo etc.) Ofc there is the 3rd option where the game goes to late game, and whatever happens, I am happy I am made it that far so it doesn't really matter who wins as long as I learn something from it.
In any case, I'm much happier and calmer when I ladder (I even look fwd to it!), I am immune to BM (almost always lol!) and I look fwd to the learning experience or "high" :D
Many thank yous from Denmark
A big fan <3<3
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EPT
