Hi guys. I have been told that upgrades are very important in this game. However, I still don't know how important they are. For example, if marine attack power is 8 and upgrading once can make it into 9, I still don't think it makes a huge difference. Let's say marine wants to kill a zergling that has 45 HP. 45-(8 damage x 6) vs. 45 - (9 damage x 5) Yes, I can hit 1 less bullet to kill zergling. But instead of spending that much resources to build Engineering bay and more to upgrade, wouldn't it also be a good idea to make barrack and make more marines?
And if zergling decides to upgrade armor +1, would it nullify marine attack +1 ?
When do you think the upgrades are the most critical?
I just heard from someone that tank in siege mode can kill zergling with one shot only if it's upgraded at least once. I think this could be very important, but at the same time, I don't see the reason to upgrade twice if upgrading once is all I need.
I just heard from someone that tank in siege mode can kill zergling with one shot only if it's upgraded at least once. I think this could be very important, but at the same time, I don't see the reason to upgrade twice if upgrading once is all I need.
Because your +1 attack gets nullified the second the zerg researches +1 armor.
Well, I'm pretty sure marine attack damage is actually six, so it's more important than you think right off. But either way, let's do a bit of math.
Six 0/0 marines do 6 * 6 = 36 damage per volley. Seven 0/0 marines do 6 * 7 = 42 damage per volley.
Six 1/0 marines do 6 * 7 = 42 damage per volley.
As you can see that upgrade is worth as much as a marine even when you have as few as six units on the field. Now, since your ebay and one upgrade cost 325 (?? totally might be wrong, I don't play terran) resources, that means they cost as much as six marines - so the point where they start being really cost-effective is once you've trained 30 or so marines. HOWEVER, since upgrades apply to all your units in the future as well, investing in an ebay earlier is entirely worth it.
Armor works kind of the same way, only you're decreasing their damage instead of increasing yours. Extremely important once you get to larger engagements.
A single upgrade advantage can turn what should be a close fight into a complete steamroll, or a dead expansion into a miraculous save. Get them early and get lots of them.
On April 15 2012 07:56 joonkimdmd wrote: Hi guys. I have been told that upgrades are very important in this game. However, I still don't know how important they are. For example, if marine attack power is 8 and upgrading once can make it into 9, I still don't think it makes a huge difference. Let's say marine wants to kill a zergling that has 45 HP. 45-(8 damage x 6) vs. 45 - (9 damage x 5) Yes, I can hit 1 less bullet to kill zergling. But instead of spending that much resources to build Engineering bay and more to upgrade, wouldn't it also be a good idea to make barrack and make more marines?
And if zergling decides to upgrade armor +1, would it nullify marine attack +1 ?
When do you think the upgrades are the most critical?
I just heard from someone that tank in siege mode can kill zergling with one shot only if it's upgraded at least once. I think this could be very important, but at the same time, I don't see the reason to upgrade twice if upgrading once is all I need.
Any thoughts?
A 0/0 marine against an 0/3 zealot does 2 damage if he is unstimed...that alone as an example should make you realise the importance of upgrades.
it might seem a good way to go for more barracks etc but actually when you reach a maxed sized army and u need to engage and your upgrades are 0/0 and your opponents are 3/3 you will get rolled so hard that no matter how many barracks you have it wont matter.Upgrades are really crucial in sc2 especially the longer the game goes on and dont let anyone tell you otherwise.And anyway their cost for their actual contribution to your army is really low so no real reason to not incorporate them in your play.
Yeah marines do 6 not 8. And it's a pretty huge difference. +3 means a 50% damage increase and that's huge. And vice-versa if you don't get upgrades and I do let's say I have +1 armor as Protoss. And I use guardian shield. With the base armor I have 4 total, so your marines do 2 damage per shot. If you had JUST +1 attack that'd be 3 damage per shot, also a 50% damage increase. And if it's +2 that's double damage. Does that show you the magnitude of how important they are?
A zergling with 3/3 + adrenal does 8 dmg 20% faster. That's a 60% boost in raw damage, with that damage being dealt in shorter intervals due to the speed boost. Take these upgrades and magnify by a hundred lings.
Those little effects add up a ton in the large-scale chaos of most battles. If you can kill an enemy in one less shot, that's one less shot they get to fire back, etc.
Have you ever seen the difference between an un-upgraded Zealot vs. 4 Zerglings and a Zealot with +1 Weapons vs. 4 Zerglings? It's huge. Or have you noticed the difference that +1 Armor makes on a Zealot vs. Marine battle? Without the armor upgrade, it takes 9 shots to down the Zealot's shields and another 20 to finish off the HP. With the upgrade it takes 25 hits to finish off the Zealot when the shield goes down. In that time, you've had to kite longer or take more damage (or both)
That's not even allowing for Guardian Shield on a Zealot. Upgrades are awesome.
Upgrades simply make your units much more cost effective.
Btw marines do 6 damage per shot... And lings have 35 hp.
And if that's not an argument against fast-attacking low-damage high-tech units, I don't know what is. To the original question, that's an extreme example, but consider the cumulative effect of upgrades, too. Say an armor upgrade saves you 5 marines in a big fight that would have otherwise died. That's five more marines, with upgrades, for the next fight. Which you then win with another 10 or so marines. So over just two engagements, you then have 15 extra marines that you wouldn't have otherwise.
I just heard from someone that tank in siege mode can kill zergling with one shot only if it's upgraded at least once. I think this could be very important, but at the same time, I don't see the reason to upgrade twice if upgrading once is all I need.
Because your +1 attack gets nullified the second the zerg researches +1 armor.
Wrong. Without upgrades, Tanks kill Lings in one hit. With at least one carapace upgrade, Lings take two hits to kill from unupgraded Tanks, but with a single attack upgrade Tanks will only need one hit for Lings with any upgrade.
Keep in mind units with a higher attack rate will benefit more from a +1 attack upgrade. And yes, the 1 less hit to kill a unit can make a huge difference as it scales exponentially. For example, zealots with +1 kill zerglings in 2 hits instead of 3. Killing your opponents units decreases their overall army dps so the faster you kill their units the more effective your army becomes. A +1 difference makes the difference between a winning and a losing game. Some units also gain more than +1 and some units deal splash. All these things must be taken into account.
On April 15 2012 08:45 Micket wrote: It depends. Mech vs mech TvT? Not useful at all. You need to get at least +1, but thats it. You only get +2 if your opponent gets +1 armour.
Armour upgrades vs mech when you have roaches and infestors? Not very useful.
However, whenever there is a low damage high rate of fire unit on the battlefield, its huuuuuuge.
true, mech (and vs mech) is prly the least upgrade dependent unitcombo in the game, because the dmg is high anyways. still, armor upgrades are rly helpful for mech units, so are attack upgrades against mech units.
For every other unit:
upgrades are key, especially the longer the game goes, since supply effeciently gets more important later on and more units profit from an upgrade.
what would u rather have, 30 0/0 marines or 20 1/1 marines, knowing that every marine that will come reinforce the 20 1/1 marines is 1/1 upgraded as well?^^
On April 15 2012 08:52 Xyik wrote: Keep in mind units with a higher attack rate will benefit more from a +1 attack upgrade.
Depends
Fast attacking units usually get +1 damage from attack upgrade. But it is completely nullified if the opponent gets +1 armor.
Slow attacking units like tanks get much more damage per upgrade, but the difference is it will not be as effected by opponent's armor upgrades. If you get 5 extra damage per shot, with +1 armor by the opponent it will still be +4 damage per shot instead of being completely negated like with fast attacking units.
On April 15 2012 08:52 Xyik wrote: Keep in mind units with a higher attack rate will benefit more from a +1 attack upgrade.
Depends
Fast attacking units usually get +1 damage from attack upgrade. But it is completely nullified if the opponent gets +1 armor.
Slow attacking units like tanks get much more damage per upgrade, but the difference is it will not be as effected by opponent's armor upgrades. If you get 5 extra damage per shot, with +1 armor by the opponent it will still be +4 damage per shot instead of being completely negated like with fast attacking units.
Yes, and since lower-tier units are often faster with attacking, upgrades improve later-tech units more than units which are available early.
I agree, it's hard to believe that doing 1 more damage actually adds up to something big in the end.
A great way it was explained to me is that if you have maybe 15 marines, you're doing 15 more damage each time you attack with a +1 attack upgrade. 15 damage is much more believable to add up to something big.
I just heard from someone that tank in siege mode can kill zergling with one shot only if it's upgraded at least once. I think this could be very important, but at the same time, I don't see the reason to upgrade twice if upgrading once is all I need.
Because your +1 attack gets nullified the second the zerg researches +1 armor.
Stop spreading bullshit
Here is how it is, if you research +1 ground armor as zerg before the terran has +1 vehicle weapons a zergling survives a tank blast with 1HP left. When the terran researches +1 vehicle weapons he is guaranteed to oneshot zerglings regardless of what armor upgrades the zergling has since the siege tank does 38 damage to normal when in siege mode.
for me as a zerg upgrades are key in any match up. Having that carapace could mean that my zerglings will reach the marines and attack at least once instead of dying short before reaching any marine. Then the terran tanks hit his marines as well and the whole thing snowballs into my favour. Same goes for attack upgrades, especially in zvp
I just heard from someone that tank in siege mode can kill zergling with one shot only if it's upgraded at least once. I think this could be very important, but at the same time, I don't see the reason to upgrade twice if upgrading once is all I need.
Because your +1 attack gets nullified the second the zerg researches +1 armor.
Except Overlords & other air units aren't covered by that +1, more upgrades means you can get faster tech snipes from drops, not all units scale as +1 vs. -1, etc.
Upgrades are necessary. Especially when fight with maxed out armies. You can't just add in more units, the upgrades make them more effective.
Also in certain situations upgrades are extremely effective. +1 zealots kill 0 armor lings in 2 hits rather than 3. Roaches work in the exact same fashion. You can also be fancy, and counter this with +1 armor.
This is an uncommon example, but in ZvT, if I am 4 raxed, then I can go for a +1 roach armor + speed killing blow. Marines have to shoot a roach 29 times before it dies. With +1 armor, they have to shoot it 37 times; that's 8 more attacks.
A general way of thinking about it is, If a unit has a low damage value, and high attack speed, armor on units is very effective. If a unit has a high damage, low attack speed, the armor is nearly worthless. Attack upgrades are almost always effective especially for units en masse, such as marines.
I personally love getting early attack and armor upgrades going. It makes for a good late game.
Certain scenarios make upgrades essential, and also just have them makes your 200/200 more effective when you cannot reinforce any longer.
It might not be as obvious with marines (which are small, fast when stimmed and have a decent range) but for the zerg the upgrades are important because all their ground units (apart from the hydra, which has plenty of other disadvantages) have short attack ranges, and roaches are quite big as well.
While it's obviously optimal to have your whole army attacking during the battle (this is where positioning becomes vital) it's really hard to have all or even most of your roaches attacking at the same time, unless there is a huge flat area or there are no force fields (or unless your opponent does something not-so-smart, such as blinking right in middle of your roaches). This means that when it comes to damage output, upgraded attacks result in higher damage output than those extra roaches stuck in the back of your army you could have gotten with the resources you used for upgrades.
Higher damage output is also helpful when you want to make sure that every attack counts. Kiting and chasing kiting units, for example.
There have been a couple of tournament games where an upgrade advantage makes a huge difference. There's Adelscott vs. IMMVP game 2 from the TSL3, where Adelscott used dual chronoboosted forges to get a bunch of gateway units to 2/2 and outmuscle MVP.
There's that infamous TLO game against MarineKing (wasn't it?) recently, where he just drowned him in this unending tide of 2/2 zerglings. (Upgrades make an absolutely huge difference in zergling vs. marine.)
On April 15 2012 08:10 Tulkas25 wrote: A 0/0 marine against an 0/3 zealot does 2 damage if he is unstimed...that alone as an example should make you realise the importance of upgrades.
it might seem a good way to go for more barracks etc but actually when you reach a maxed sized army and u need to engage and your upgrades are 0/0 and your opponents are 3/3 you will get rolled so hard that no matter how many barracks you have it wont matter.Upgrades are really crucial in sc2 especially the longer the game goes on and dont let anyone tell you otherwise.And anyway their cost for their actual contribution to your army is really low so no real reason to not incorporate them in your play.
Upgrades might not be very noticeable when you and your opponent are getting them at similar times, but if you forget or ignore them, you will lose games because of it. When your army and your opponents army is similar in size (for example when you are maxed out at 200/200) upgrade differences have a significant influence.
EPT
