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On May 04 2012 17:44 Umpteen wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2012 16:26 Belial88 wrote:
In gold, execute a build to 70 suppply with smooth timings, just like any pro would execute them, and you'd be fine. Cool! I play Zerg; which are the builds I can execute up to 70 supply? I've been labouring under the misapprehension that I need to know what my opponent is planning to hit me with and when so I can counter it. It will be a huge weight off my mind to have a safe 70 supply build for each matchup.
14/14. In ZvZ, just make sure the opponent isn't doing a 1 base all-in like 10 pool bane or 1 base roach, before taking a 21 hatch with baneling nest shortly afterwards, 2 queens+spine.
In the other match-ups, just drone up to 35, then check to make sure the opponent expanded or is planning to (In ZvT, just make sure he isn't going 2 rax or 7 rax with a drone scout followed up by a ling scout, to see to make sure he didnt' go gasless or proxy stuff) by sacrificing an overlord. If he hasn't expanded by 5:30 (or making an obvious indication he is imminently about to expand, like at 5:40 and was late), get evo chamber and make units until he expands. Then drone up to 45, grab 2-4 gas depending on what you are doing (going roaches, or going muta/infestor).
Make units to be safe. Take third when you are obviously safe (you can confidently run around the map). Make units, drone it up.
In ZvP you may want to react to toss expanding by getting a third. If it's gateway expand, get a roach warren. If it's ffe, get a roach warren at 7:00. But you can get away with just going 2 base lair and using roaches to secure your third either way (if he went ffe, you dont have to make any roaches to take third after getting lair, just make them after getting third).
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I don't really see this thread going anywhere for the time being. It's just low level players who have the gall to argue with high masters and blues (and the many crappier players, like mid-masters me, who agree with them). Every single blue and high masters has told you that macro is just soooo important, and will carry you easily to masters. You are literally arguing with what pro players think on the issue, as if you know better than them.
And even if they are just being assholes, it's no question that you would get to diamond with just macro alone. Whenever I watch a bronze-plat replay, every single one, there are just huge, gapping, horrible issues.
Remember that thread that Gheed made about how worker rushing in bronze, even in silver, was just so successful? Well, that's how everyone looks at bronze to platinum players. People in bronze-plat just fail so hard in their macro, it's not even funny. They go 30+ seconds without making workers.
If you ever get supply blocked before 40 supply, it's a joke. Every gold player gets supply blocked before 40 (if he doesn't, he has some other serious issues that are just as bad...) and banks 500+ money. This isn't about good macro. Just competent macro. How do you get supply blocked at 34? I don't know, but golds do it every time.
It's not like gold people are stupid here. This is a very simple problem to fix. Hey, make a pylon at 30 supply. Whatever. You are 10% better of a player instantly. but the problem, is that golds refuse to look at this. They don't think this is a big deal.
So please. Post a replay of you playing a game that was 10+ minutes long, where the opponent at least expanded, and you lost. We'll point out some very laughable mistakes in why you lost. I promise, no circular logic or anything like that. We'll point out some very, very basic mistakes that should never occur, that you can fix overnight, that would have won you the game if you had done it (oh, avoid that 30 supply block, and you would have had 6 more marines with that push, you would have easily won).
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
I mean, I think the big thing here is that all the really good players are saying "yeah, macro will help you win" and clearly they used this advice to get good. Bad players are saying "no, gold league macro is fine it's other stuff that's the problem" and clearly they did not get good.
So, are you gonna follow the advice of the dudes who are high master, or the dudes who are bad? Assuming people aren't intentionally misleading you on how they personally improved it seems pretty clear to me.
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Now the question i have, is as a completely average master protoss, how do i improve MY macro  because it is god awful! I truely believe it is the most important part of play, but i rarely go a game where i get to 3 bases without floating 1200+ minerals for a least a little while 
I think maybe i need to learn to place extra gates/structures quicker. I really think i am an example of a player who has some good elements of my play, but not my macro. Unless my macro is about average for my level, it is hard to tell.
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On May 04 2012 17:44 Umpteen wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2012 16:26 Belial88 wrote:
In gold, execute a build to 70 suppply with smooth timings, just like any pro would execute them, and you'd be fine. Cool! I play Zerg; which are the builds I can execute up to 70 supply? I've been labouring under the misapprehension that I need to know what my opponent is planning to hit me with and when so I can counter it. It will be a huge weight off my mind to have a safe 70 supply build for each matchup.
I would start with ZvP - the other matchups are... a little more complicated. This thread is a guide for ZvP when your opponent goes FFE: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=324733
Pay particular attention to the macro goals he sets! They are all pretty reasonable - practice this build vs the very easy AI (or no AI at all) in custom games until you can reliably hit those benchmarks! Until you can max your army by 12 minutes, keep practicing! I would suggest recording the macro results of your own games (how many units/drones you have at 8:00 and 12:00), and keeping record of it so you can track your improvement. Then go and smash some protoss on ladder! Compare it to one of your old games vs a FFE and you should see the HUGE difference in how many drones & units you have. Move onto looking at the other matchups after that.
It's the small things that really add up, and hopefully the above exercise will make you more sensitive to them (which will be useful for all matchups). Did you build the hatch at exactly 300 minerals? Or was it closer to 400. Are you building drones the instant that you get 50 minerals? Or is it more like 70-80 minerals. Did you ever run into a supply block? That's 25 seconds of no production. Try to watch your replays and look at how many idle larvae you have in the earlygame - if you have 1 idle larvae, that means you have not built anything for 0-15 seconds. 2 idle larvae? 15-30 seconds of no production. THREE idle larvae? I would consider that to be a huge macro slipup - you have neglected to build anything for 30+ seconds!
GL 
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On May 04 2012 19:12 Surili wrote:Now the question i have, is as a completely average master protoss, how do i improve MY macro because it is god awful! I truely believe it is the most important part of play, but i rarely go a game where i get to 3 bases without floating 1200+ minerals for a least a little while I think maybe i need to learn to place extra gates/structures quicker. I really think i am an example of a player who has some good elements of my play, but not my macro. Unless my macro is about average for my level, it is hard to tell.
If you are floating minerals, but are gas starved, you want to be carefully looking at when you are taking your gases - chances are your gases are late. If it's just a question of general money-spending, you want to look at your game and carefully identify the FIRST moment that you had money that never gets spent. In future games try to build your production earlier than you did, or perhaps additional production at that point.
Eg, when I was recently looking at one of my builds and I knew my macro hatch needed to be earlier, so I carefully studied a replay and looked for the first moment that I was floating 300 minerals that I was never able to spend (but not just the first time I hit 300 minerals, as I may have larvae injects about to pop etc). Then next game try to build at that point and see how it goes!
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Now the question i have, is as a completely average master protoss, how do i improve MY macro because it is god awful! I truely believe it is the most important part of play, but i rarely go a game where i get to 3 bases without floating 1200+ minerals for a least a little while
I think maybe i need to learn to place extra gates/structures quicker. I really think i am an example of a player who has some good elements of my play, but not my macro. Unless my macro is about average for my level, it is hard to tell.
You need to set goals (my probe count vs pro at X time, do i ever go any period of time when probes aren't being made), understand concrete side effects of your deficiencies in macro (how much cumulative time did I not produce workers, how many probes is that 'lost' by 10:00, how much money would X probes would have mined, how many more units could I have gotten with that money, what would those units have done in that battle?), analyze the very basics (am I ever supply blocked for a split second, could I make taht pylon slightly earlier, am I ever still at or below the previous supply cap when new pylon comes on, could I make that pylon later, not making probes), and find out when your macro usually slips (i tend to not make probes when I'm trying to figure out if Terran is going 2 base all-in or not, so now on I will just blindly queu up 5 workers as I then spend my APM scouting, or I tend to get my third too late - why - and what can I scout to know if I can take it earlier?).
This is true for all levels of play, really, but it's easier for low level (do I get supply blocked ever? Do I ever not make workers? Do I ever not make units? Do i ever have idle larva?).
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On May 04 2012 18:27 Belial88 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2012 17:44 Umpteen wrote:On May 04 2012 16:26 Belial88 wrote:
In gold, execute a build to 70 suppply with smooth timings, just like any pro would execute them, and you'd be fine. Cool! I play Zerg; which are the builds I can execute up to 70 supply? I've been labouring under the misapprehension that I need to know what my opponent is planning to hit me with and when so I can counter it. It will be a huge weight off my mind to have a safe 70 supply build for each matchup. 14/14. In ZvZ, just make sure the opponent isn't doing a 1 base all-in like 10 pool bane or 1 base roach, before taking a 21 hatch with baneling nest shortly afterwards, 2 queens+spine. In the other match-ups, just drone up to 35, then check to make sure the opponent expanded or is planning to (In ZvT, just make sure he isn't going 2 rax or 7 rax with a drone scout followed up by a ling scout, to see to make sure he didnt' go gasless or proxy stuff) by sacrificing an overlord. If he hasn't expanded by 5:30 (or making an obvious indication he is imminently about to expand, like at 5:40 and was late), get evo chamber and make units until he expands. Then drone up to 45, grab 2-4 gas depending on what you are doing (going roaches, or going muta/infestor). Make units to be safe. Take third when you are obviously safe (you can confidently run around the map). Make units, drone it up. In ZvP you may want to react to toss expanding by getting a third. If it's gateway expand, get a roach warren. If it's ffe, get a roach warren at 7:00. But you can get away with just going 2 base lair and using roaches to secure your third either way (if he went ffe, you dont have to make any roaches to take third after getting lair, just make them after getting third).
I'm grateful for the advice (particularly the foods and times), but what you're describing isn't 'executing a build to 70 supply with smooth timings'. It's 'play reactively the way you're already trying to do, only with better macro'. You're not able to say what units I should make, because it's going to be very different if he's following a zealot/immortal build or a marauder/hellion build or marine/tank or banshees or void rays. Against Protoss, if I max on roach/hydra I am going to lose incredibly hard to a Protoss who patiently turtles to Colossus.
Doesn't it strike you as just a little significant that you're telling someone to 'just focus on macro and forget about strategy' and then having to give them a bunch of strategic advice, and rely on them to fill in the gaps as to which units to make under what circumstances and when their army will become dangerously obsolete?
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On May 05 2012 01:24 Umpteen wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2012 18:27 Belial88 wrote:On May 04 2012 17:44 Umpteen wrote:On May 04 2012 16:26 Belial88 wrote:
In gold, execute a build to 70 suppply with smooth timings, just like any pro would execute them, and you'd be fine. Cool! I play Zerg; which are the builds I can execute up to 70 supply? I've been labouring under the misapprehension that I need to know what my opponent is planning to hit me with and when so I can counter it. It will be a huge weight off my mind to have a safe 70 supply build for each matchup. 14/14. In ZvZ, just make sure the opponent isn't doing a 1 base all-in like 10 pool bane or 1 base roach, before taking a 21 hatch with baneling nest shortly afterwards, 2 queens+spine. In the other match-ups, just drone up to 35, then check to make sure the opponent expanded or is planning to (In ZvT, just make sure he isn't going 2 rax or 7 rax with a drone scout followed up by a ling scout, to see to make sure he didnt' go gasless or proxy stuff) by sacrificing an overlord. If he hasn't expanded by 5:30 (or making an obvious indication he is imminently about to expand, like at 5:40 and was late), get evo chamber and make units until he expands. Then drone up to 45, grab 2-4 gas depending on what you are doing (going roaches, or going muta/infestor). Make units to be safe. Take third when you are obviously safe (you can confidently run around the map). Make units, drone it up. In ZvP you may want to react to toss expanding by getting a third. If it's gateway expand, get a roach warren. If it's ffe, get a roach warren at 7:00. But you can get away with just going 2 base lair and using roaches to secure your third either way (if he went ffe, you dont have to make any roaches to take third after getting lair, just make them after getting third). I'm grateful for the advice (particularly the foods and times), but what you're describing isn't 'executing a build to 70 supply with smooth timings'. It's 'play reactively the way you're already trying to do, only with better macro'. You're not able to say what units I should make, because it's going to be very different if he's following a zealot/immortal build or a marauder/hellion build or marine/tank or banshees or void rays. Against Protoss, if I max on roach/hydra I am going to lose incredibly hard to a Protoss who patiently turtles to Colossus. Doesn't it strike you as just a little significant that you're telling someone to 'just focus on macro and forget about strategy' and then having to give them a bunch of strategic advice, and rely on them to fill in the gaps as to which units to make under what circumstances and when their army will become dangerously obsolete?
Cool! I play Zerg; which are the builds I can execute up to 70 supply? I've been labouring under the misapprehension that I need to know what my opponent is planning to hit me with and when so I can counter it. It will be a huge weight off my mind to have a safe 70 supply build for each matchup.
I can't tell if you were actually asking for help or if you were just attempting to prove a point.
The point of scouting is so that you can make the most appropriate response to what you believe your opponent might be doing - but "the most appropriate" response isn't strictly necessary. If you macro superbly, and make a few extra roaches/spines/banelings that you didn't strictly need, you will still be way WAY far ahead of your average low level player (eg see Destiny making it to Platinum/Diamond? with only queens). Against terran or zerg you will do just fine making some units (or a pre-emptive roach warren or baneling nest) to be safe.
If you WERE actually looking for advice, and not just trying to undermine the recommendations of better players than you, I suggest you follow my advice on ZvP that is basically good up to 200 supply. If you can manage to achieve the benchmarks you will be in a superb spot.
Or do I need to tell you that if you see him sending some zealots you should make a few lings?
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On May 04 2012 19:16 Hairy wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2012 17:44 Umpteen wrote:On May 04 2012 16:26 Belial88 wrote:
In gold, execute a build to 70 suppply with smooth timings, just like any pro would execute them, and you'd be fine. Cool! I play Zerg; which are the builds I can execute up to 70 supply? I've been labouring under the misapprehension that I need to know what my opponent is planning to hit me with and when so I can counter it. It will be a huge weight off my mind to have a safe 70 supply build for each matchup. I would start with ZvP - the other matchups are... a little more complicated. This thread is a guide for ZvP when your opponent goes FFE: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=324733
Thanks - that's actually the build order I've been following vs FFE I hit the 12:00 max in an actual game yesterday; was really pleased - and did indeed smash some serious protoss with it.
It's the small things that really add up, and hopefully the above exercise will make you more sensitive to them (which will be useful for all matchups). Did you build the hatch at exactly 300 minerals? Or was it closer to 400. Are you building drones the instant that you get 50 minerals? Or is it more like 70-80 minerals. Did you ever run into a supply block? That's 25 seconds of no production. Try to watch your replays and look at how many idle larvae you have in the earlygame - if you have 1 idle larvae, that means you have not built anything for 0-15 seconds. 2 idle larvae? 15-30 seconds of no production. THREE idle larvae? I would consider that to be a huge macro slipup - you have neglected to build anything for 30+ seconds! GL
My point has always been that it's easier to focus on these things when you don't feel completely lost as to what you're supposed to be building and when, and it's very easy to feel that way in ZvX when A) it seems like any old random shit can descend upon you at any moment, and B) after holding said shit off it can be pretty opaque whether the right decision is to counterattack, expand, tech up, focus on expansion denial...
Maybe I'm really, really dumb but a lot of the time I'm just kind of hoping for the best after that first engagement. It's so frustrating to watch one replay and see that I should have counterattacked to redress an economic disadvantage that ended up snowballing, and then watch another replay and see that if I hadn't traded armies at that exact moment I could have safely droned up another expansion, and then watch another and see that I needlessly built units out of fear and let him get ahead.
There's a reason all these threads advise people to pick a build and stick to it to practice macro: you can't practice macro if you don't know what you're trying to do. And nobody has convinced me that, playing as Zerg, 'knowing what you're trying to do' is a trivial matter.
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On May 05 2012 01:50 Hairy wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2012 01:24 Umpteen wrote:On May 04 2012 18:27 Belial88 wrote:On May 04 2012 17:44 Umpteen wrote:On May 04 2012 16:26 Belial88 wrote:
In gold, execute a build to 70 suppply with smooth timings, just like any pro would execute them, and you'd be fine. Cool! I play Zerg; which are the builds I can execute up to 70 supply? I've been labouring under the misapprehension that I need to know what my opponent is planning to hit me with and when so I can counter it. It will be a huge weight off my mind to have a safe 70 supply build for each matchup. 14/14. In ZvZ, just make sure the opponent isn't doing a 1 base all-in like 10 pool bane or 1 base roach, before taking a 21 hatch with baneling nest shortly afterwards, 2 queens+spine. In the other match-ups, just drone up to 35, then check to make sure the opponent expanded or is planning to (In ZvT, just make sure he isn't going 2 rax or 7 rax with a drone scout followed up by a ling scout, to see to make sure he didnt' go gasless or proxy stuff) by sacrificing an overlord. If he hasn't expanded by 5:30 (or making an obvious indication he is imminently about to expand, like at 5:40 and was late), get evo chamber and make units until he expands. Then drone up to 45, grab 2-4 gas depending on what you are doing (going roaches, or going muta/infestor). Make units to be safe. Take third when you are obviously safe (you can confidently run around the map). Make units, drone it up. In ZvP you may want to react to toss expanding by getting a third. If it's gateway expand, get a roach warren. If it's ffe, get a roach warren at 7:00. But you can get away with just going 2 base lair and using roaches to secure your third either way (if he went ffe, you dont have to make any roaches to take third after getting lair, just make them after getting third). I'm grateful for the advice (particularly the foods and times), but what you're describing isn't 'executing a build to 70 supply with smooth timings'. It's 'play reactively the way you're already trying to do, only with better macro'. You're not able to say what units I should make, because it's going to be very different if he's following a zealot/immortal build or a marauder/hellion build or marine/tank or banshees or void rays. Against Protoss, if I max on roach/hydra I am going to lose incredibly hard to a Protoss who patiently turtles to Colossus. Doesn't it strike you as just a little significant that you're telling someone to 'just focus on macro and forget about strategy' and then having to give them a bunch of strategic advice, and rely on them to fill in the gaps as to which units to make under what circumstances and when their army will become dangerously obsolete? Show nested quote +Cool! I play Zerg; which are the builds I can execute up to 70 supply? I've been labouring under the misapprehension that I need to know what my opponent is planning to hit me with and when so I can counter it. It will be a huge weight off my mind to have a safe 70 supply build for each matchup. I can't tell if you were actually asking for help or if you were just attempting to prove a point.
It's like this: everyone tells me to listen to better players. I know that makes sense without needing to be told. So I listened when I was told to just concentrate on macro. I tried that for a year, and remained in silver. My macro didn't improve.
Then I watched some vods about understanding what was going on in the game and making better decisions.
My macro promptly improved, rapidly, as did my ladder rank. Now I actually CAN focus on not missing injects, leaving larvae idle or getting supply blocked, because I know (more often) what I'm trying to build and when. I'm still bad, but the trajectory is at least upwards.
That puts me in a tough spot. I shouldn't argue with better players - yet I had to learn things they said didn't matter before I could improve what they said DID matter. Is that just me? Or are there other players like me, who try to follow good advice and get nowhere? What if they decide the advice isn't good after all? I haven't done that - I just think there's other good advice that can be at least as fundamental, and which maybe - maybe good players are overlooking because they think it's trivially obvious stuff. Or am I just wrong, and there is a 70-food build I can just follow and use to practice pure macro?
No, you don't have to tell me to build a few lings if I see zealots coming But I did need to be told to watch the gases at a Protoss natural to judge his tech, without which I'd have lost several games to sudden mass void rays. I did need to have my eyes opened to judging when to counterattack, concentrate on expansion denial, tech up etc etc after stopping a push.
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Probably good points. However one issue Ii have with your terminology is fundamentals are more of a " foundation" in nature and not "tactics" per say
A tactic would be more akin to taking advantage of a " a short term scenario" employing the use of mechanics or decision making to take advantage of a given situation .
Where as having good fundamentals allows one to play the game from a higher level of understanding on a "fundamental " level
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On reflection, what Hairy said is making me feel bad about what I wrote. I don't want to offend or piss anyone off here.
This is not in any way about me trying to say I'm smarter or know more than master level / pro players. If anything I'm arguing that I know less than they're giving me credit for - which is why their advice didn't help as much as it should have.
I have a five year old daughter. For fairly obvious reasons I am - at the moment anyway - considerably smarter and more experienced than she is. Obviously the smart thing to do is for her to take my advice when I offer it. However, on several occasions now I've realised that the reason she's not listening to me is that I haven't properly understood the problem she's having before offering my advice. Or sometimes, I've unthinkingly used a word or phrase whose connotations I understand but she does not. So my advice, whilst being perfectly sound and obviously correct from my perspective, fails to have the impact I expect. That's the vibe I'm aiming for here
I mean, in every one of these threads I see pro/high level players shaking their heads in bafflement. "Here we are, taking time out to offer advice, and these idiots are arguing with us. What's wrong with them?" Well, maybe THIS is what's wrong with them. Us, I mean :D
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On May 05 2012 02:34 MrProphylactic wrote:
Probably good points. However one issue Ii have with your terminology is fundamentals are more of a " foundation" in nature and not "tactics" per say
A tactic would be more akin to taking advantage of a " a short term scenario" employing the use of mechanics or decision making to take advantage of a given situation .
Where as having good fundamentals allows one to play the game from a higher level of understanding on a "fundamental " level
I'm pretty sure the OP is well aware of this and chose the term "tactics" deliberately with a bit of tongue-in-cheek in mind.
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On May 05 2012 03:43 Umpteen wrote:I have a five year old daughter. For fairly obvious reasons I am - at the moment anyway - considerably smarter and more experienced than she is. Obviously the smart thing to do is for her to take my advice when I offer it. However, on several occasions now I've realised that the reason she's not listening to me is that I haven't properly understood the problem she's having before offering my advice. Or sometimes, I've unthinkingly used a word or phrase whose connotations I understand but she does not. So my advice, whilst being perfectly sound and obviously correct from my perspective, fails to have the impact I expect. That's the vibe I'm aiming for here I mean, in every one of these threads I see pro/high level players shaking their heads in bafflement. "Here we are, taking time out to offer advice, and these idiots are arguing with us. What's wrong with them?" Well, maybe THIS is what's wrong with them. Us, I mean :D
It's way more fun to win because you did a good engagement/decision than because you spammed workers, army, supply. People play to have fun, and I think masters/GM don't understand we can lose from decision making at equal poor mechanics. But we can. Then I agree with them, this decision making won't help once you have proper macro. If one wants to raise his skill level, he has to focus on mechanics, it's the easy way and I also agree lower leaguers should know they can't improve too much just with better decision making because it will only lead them to superior macro opponents where their decision making is useless and therefore can't improve more.
As a gold T, soon plat I hope, I'm ok with worker & army production, sometimes forget supply, but less & less, however I struggle to manage the add-on timings (it really weakens the army for a minute, just when people can do decent executed timing attacks) and building timings. And if my macro is keeping to improve at this rate and if I learn 3 BO after 20 supply, I think I can reach diamond in a month. I'm just too lazy to learn some BO at the moments and I'm having tons of fun so why change?
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I'm glad you are having fun, but no, that wasn't my point at all.
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I'm a Gold/Platinum player, so feel free to bash on me not being a master and having to STFU for the sake of everything you love.
Now don't get me wrong: I do think that perfecting macro is the biggest problem of people at my level, but it isn't self-sufficient to make me go a league higher. Yeah, I heard examples of a player leveling to high diamond by just making stalkers and a-clicking, and I won't deny your probe/pylon is very effective.
This works for Protoss, because they have a fully upgraded Protoss army is strong in every matchup. Except I play Terran, and have to face the following problems :
- In TvT, blindly pushing makes you die to siege mode, regardless of your 30 barracks and you being 2 bases ahead.
- In TvP, the endgame will be violent if you opt for direct confrontation while a-clicking.
- In TvZ, having a perfect macro while being in passive mode will still allow a gold zerg player to be maxed at the 15-17 min mark on 4-6 bases.
Now these are secondary problems compared to developping decent mechanics, but it's false to imply you can overlook decision making, notably concerning the nature, timing and desired effect of pushes, until reaching the Master league.
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This works for Protoss, because they have a fully upgraded Protoss army is strong in every matchup. Except I play Terran, and have to face the following problems
This is also true for terran, check out filterSC on youtube. He uses the same build from bronze to masters, refining it a little bit as the leagues go on and gives you solid benchmarks to train to. Up to gold he doesnt even bother to control his army and just a-moves across the map. He did no scouting at all and didnt need to by playing a rather safe build - the same build against all 3 races.
While I found such builds and benchmarks for P & T, Im still looking for a safe build as Z where I can try the same. 1 build for all matchups, no scouting, no change in build, just a-move. Havent found one so far.
the funny thing is: I really put efford in the FilterSC "tactics" and went to diamond so far (with terran) while Im still stuck at gold with my main race (zerg)
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On May 05 2012 03:43 Umpteen wrote:
On reflection, what Hairy said is making me feel bad about what I wrote. I don't want to offend or piss anyone off here. No worries - I felt what I said was a bit strong as well. I was just a bit pissed I spent a reasonable amount of time making a post to try and help a fellow zerg, when it later appeared the question was just a guise with an ulterior motive.
On May 05 2012 03:43 Umpteen wrote:This is not in any way about me trying to say I'm smarter or know more than master level / pro players. If anything I'm arguing that I know less than they're giving me credit for - which is why their advice didn't help as much as it should have. I have a five year old daughter. For fairly obvious reasons I am - at the moment anyway - considerably smarter and more experienced than she is. Obviously the smart thing to do is for her to take my advice when I offer it. However, on several occasions now I've realised that the reason she's not listening to me is that I haven't properly understood the problem she's having before offering my advice. Or sometimes, I've unthinkingly used a word or phrase whose connotations I understand but she does not. So my advice, whilst being perfectly sound and obviously correct from my perspective, fails to have the impact I expect. That's the vibe I'm aiming for here I mean, in every one of these threads I see pro/high level players shaking their heads in bafflement. "Here we are, taking time out to offer advice, and these idiots are arguing with us. What's wrong with them?" Well, maybe THIS is what's wrong with them. Us, I mean :D Good analogy, and I think you're pretty spot on.
The thing is... you're talking about feeling the need for strategy (and sure, having a good strategic grasp on the game will definitely help). You feel like you don't really know what you should be doing, and you don't really know what units you should be building. The thing is, what the high players will tell you is basically.... make anything you want. Don't worry about it. The one thing that's worse than making the "incorrect" unit is making no units at all! The cumulative effect of droning properly, good overlord timings, sharp building placement and simply BUILDING STUFF (i.e. keeping your money low) is colossal.
People stress too much about strategy and the "right response", but then you can look at the game and say "well... you had enough money to make 50 banelings". You know what's good against most armies? 50 banelings!
Feel free to post a replay and we can give suggestions - I do actually enjoy analysing replays (when I have the time), and it can only help.
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Its true zerg has to be a litt more reactive, but its really quite simply.
Open 1414, remove from gas, expand on 21
Drone scout, did opponent take gas or is he clearly cheesing?
Did opponent expand by 530?
Yes? Drone up to 45, then get macro hatch, necessary gas (2 for roach, 4 for infesot or muta) for lair
No? Get 540 evo and roach warren. Make a spore and roaches.
Zvz - make some roaches after 50ish, take third and get roach speed and hydras.
Zvp - take third then make lots of roaches
Zvt - take third, then make ling/bane.
How often do people go 1base dt or cloaked banshees anyways? Just folllowing a rote build order and losing 1 out of 10 to cloak is fine, you'll still hit diamond.
But pplease. You keep talking shit, but won't ppost a replay proving macro wasn't the reason you lost a longer game in gold. Aparently your the one guy, in gold, who knows better than everyone else. I don't think in gold you can macro perfectly even against the ai (I know I can't), so please. Rep.
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EPT
