EPT[D] Underused Tactic in Lower Leagues - Page 15
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Nasreth
United States48 Posts
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Nasreth
United States48 Posts
On May 01 2012 19:39 Blazinghand wrote: I think with Z it works differently though, and this just might be because you don't play P or T so let me explain how things work as P and T. Protoss Macro: Good Macro: Nexus queue always in use, constant probe production; Nexus Energy always in use-- shit is getting chronoed, whether it's units or probes or upgrades or whatever. Bad Macro: Nexus queue sometimes not in use, probes are being cut; Nexus energy builds up-- shit isn't getting chronoed. Terran Macro Good Macro: CC queue always in use, constant scv production; OC energy always in use-- shit is getting muled unless you're specifically saving for a scan or whatever. Bad Macro: CC queue sometimes not in use, scvs are being cut; OC energy builds up-- mules are being missed. What this means in general: Good Macro: your Town Hall resources are constantly being used-- your queue is always doing something (for P and T this means making workers) and your energy is always being used. Bad Macro: your Town Hall resources are not always being used-- you're getting supply blocked or forgetting to keep yoru queue active, and your energy is building up. So now, when you look at Zerg, what does "Good Macro" mean? I'll tell you what it doesn't mean: It doesn't mean "only drone" or "mass drones" or some equine feces like that. It means what it means for the other races: your Town Hall resources are always being used. So the question is, what are Zerg's Town Hall resources? Well, they are: 1) Larvae, generated naturally by the Hatchery 2) Larvae, generated via Queen injections So, for a Protoss or Terran player, an accumulation of energy on the CC is analogous to the accumulation of energy on a queen. But how do we correspond the "constantly make SCVs / have your town hall queue always working and doing things" with the zerg equivalent? Well, the Zerg equivalent of cutting scvs is having idle larvae. It doesn't matter whether those larvae were gonna be zerglings, or drones, or overlords, or whatever-- as long as they're idle, they're doing what an scv cut would do to a terran. So when you as a zerg player see people saying "constantly make workers" don't think "hurr durr I'm only going to make drones" because that's not the zerg equivalent-- the zerg equivalent to a constantly-working CC or Nexus is constantly-working larvae. If you hit your injects and constantly use your larvae, you'll be able to make a bigger army, and have more income. Now, a certain number of those larvae are going to drones and overlords and stuff, but when a guy says "focus on probes and pylons" don't think "ok i'm not gonna make combat units", think "I'm gonna focus on making sure I use my larvae. It's a fairly common mistake for new Zerg players to not fully get the "probes and pylons" analogy since as a Zerg you have the capacity to ONLY make drones and overlords. That's not what people are saying. They're saying to optimally use your Town Hall resources-- make drones, sure, but #1 goal should be to hit injects and put all your larvae to good use. So, in summary: Zerg Macro: Good Macro: You hit every inject and your injecting queens don't build up energy. All your larvae are being used quickly to make drones, overlords, and combat units, and are not sitting idle. Bad Macro: You miss injects and your injecting queens build up energy, and/or you have larvae being left idle, instead of making drones, overlords and combat units. This means that you can make pure drones and overlords AND hit all your injects AND never get supply blocked and still have bad macro. Just allocating what larvae you do use to economy isn't good macro. Just injecting and making ovies isn't good macro (but it's a part of it). Zerg macro is about the production and utilization of larvae. Also, QFT. This is a really good example of the dichotomy between good and bad macro. | ||
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Blazinghand
United States25558 Posts
On May 01 2012 19:47 Nasreth wrote: Also, QFT. This is a really good example of the dichotomy between good and bad macro. It is admittedly a little more complex for Zerg, since you could have good macro mechanics (injecting, spending larvae) and just not make units ever. Terran has only one "speed" of worker production, and although Protoss is a little more flexible, it can only make probes a little faster than normal. Expansion timing aside (yes this is a huge thing to put aside), Zerg has the most flexibility in terms of how much you can power before consuming. However, powering too hard and having good macro are distinct concepts and should not be confused. If I as a Terran player opened 1 rax Expo Expo against Protoss and got 3 gate VR All-inned, it's basically my own fault for powering so hard against a 2-gas Protoss. EDIT: but the basic lesson still holds true. focusing on solid macro helps enormously. even at my level, the first thing I look at when I analyze one of my replays is my own macro and worker production to figure out where it all went wrong. | ||
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Hairy
United Kingdom1169 Posts
On May 01 2012 19:39 Blazinghand wrote: + Show Spoiler + On May 01 2012 18:56 Tevian wrote: Edit: I guess before I receive some really bad reactions, I'll just say that OP is generally right though. Just from my own Z perspective macro will win your games against P and T, but ZvZ is a whole different story. I think with Z it works differently though, and this just might be because you don't play P or T so let me explain how things work as P and T. Protoss Macro: Good Macro: Nexus queue always in use, constant probe production; Nexus Energy always in use-- shit is getting chronoed, whether it's units or probes or upgrades or whatever. Bad Macro: Nexus queue sometimes not in use, probes are being cut; Nexus energy builds up-- shit isn't getting chronoed. Terran Macro Good Macro: CC queue always in use, constant scv production; OC energy always in use-- shit is getting muled unless you're specifically saving for a scan or whatever. Bad Macro: CC queue sometimes not in use, scvs are being cut; OC energy builds up-- mules are being missed. What this means in general: Good Macro: your Town Hall resources are constantly being used-- your queue is always doing something (for P and T this means making workers) and your energy is always being used. Bad Macro: your Town Hall resources are not always being used-- you're getting supply blocked or forgetting to keep yoru queue active, and your energy is building up. So now, when you look at Zerg, what does "Good Macro" mean? I'll tell you what it doesn't mean: It doesn't mean "only drone" or "mass drones" or some equine feces like that. It means what it means for the other races: your Town Hall resources are always being used. So the question is, what are Zerg's Town Hall resources? Well, they are: 1) Larvae, generated naturally by the Hatchery 2) Larvae, generated via Queen injections So, for a Protoss or Terran player, an accumulation of energy on the CC is analogous to the accumulation of energy on a queen. But how do we correspond the "constantly make SCVs / have your town hall queue always working and doing things" with the zerg equivalent? Well, the Zerg equivalent of cutting scvs is having idle larvae. It doesn't matter whether those larvae were gonna be zerglings, or drones, or overlords, or whatever-- as long as they're idle, they're doing what an scv cut would do to a terran. So when you as a zerg player see people saying "constantly make workers" don't think "hurr durr I'm only going to make drones" because that's not the zerg equivalent-- the zerg equivalent to a constantly-working CC or Nexus is constantly-working larvae. If you hit your injects and constantly use your larvae, you'll be able to make a bigger army, and have more income. Now, a certain number of those larvae are going to drones and overlords and stuff, but when a guy says "focus on probes and pylons" don't think "ok i'm not gonna make combat units", think "I'm gonna focus on making sure I use my larvae. It's a fairly common mistake for new Zerg players to not fully get the "probes and pylons" analogy since as a Zerg you have the capacity to ONLY make drones and overlords. That's not what people are saying. They're saying to optimally use your Town Hall resources-- make drones, sure, but #1 goal should be to hit injects and put all your larvae to good use. So, in summary: Zerg Macro: Good Macro: You hit every inject and your injecting queens don't build up energy. All your larvae are being used quickly to make drones, overlords, and combat units, and are not sitting idle. Bad Macro: You miss injects and your injecting queens build up energy, and/or you have larvae being left idle, instead of making drones, overlords and combat units. This means that you can make pure drones and overlords AND hit all your injects AND never get supply blocked and still have bad macro. Just allocating what larvae you do use to economy isn't good macro. Just injecting and making ovies isn't good macro (but it's a part of it). Zerg macro is about the production and utilization of larvae. Another QFT from me. This bit: Zerg Macro: Good Macro: You hit every inject and your injecting queens don't build up energy. All your larvae are being used quickly to make drones, overlords, and combat units, and are not sitting idle. Bad Macro: You miss injects and your injecting queens build up energy, and/or you have larvae being left idle, instead of making drones, overlords and combat units. Is spot on. Good zerg macro is building overlords at the right times (too early is just as bad as too late), ALWAYS hitting your injects, and never having idle larvae. Anything else is essentially strategy - the choice of where best to allocate your larvae. | ||
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arie3000
153 Posts
On May 01 2012 19:49 Blazinghand wrote: It is admittedly a little more complex for Zerg, since you could have good macro mechanics (injecting, spending larvae) and just not make units ever. Terran has only one "speed" of worker production, and although Protoss is a little more flexible, it can only make probes a little faster than normal. Expansion timing aside (yes this is a huge thing to put aside), Zerg has the most flexibility in terms of how much you can power before consuming. Yup, for Zerg, if you hit all of your injects, never are supply blocked and don't have any idle drones, you still need to scout very diligently to prepare for what's coming. If you make 45 drones vs. a 4-gate, you lose. The drone vs. unit thing is quite hard for beginning zergs, especially in the lower leagues - for example, sometimes I scout a terran that is not going gas, rushing me into panic mode, throwing up spine crawlers and making lings. Then nothing happens, and he just 'forgot' gas and exanded behind this. You can never really prepare for this, and good early game scouting is not very easy for Z. The other day I scouted a P throwing down 4-gates off 1 base, I start to pump roaches only to find out that he just expanded a bit later and never even put any pressure, while I was waiting for the 4-gate to hit, that never came. Got killed by DTs 'cause I never got to lair. On some maps this is really hard to OL scout, and you're preparing for something that isn't coming. Every race has its things that are tricky, but early game as Z I'm always a bit nervous, and it is hard to make desciscions if you're 'in the dark', and you need to spend more attention on scouting (meaning you can mess-up actually building stuff if your multitasking is bad). What I'm trying to say in a very long-winded way is, that while not getting supply blocked, hitting injects, spending larvae is very important, in ladder games scouting is incredibly important as zerg, otherwise there's a high risk of dying to stuff you didn't see coming. I've been in games where things were going reasonably well macro-wise (for my standards), but I died to stuff I didn't scout. For the other races there isn't really a penalty for making too many workers, and it is good practice to 'keep making probes/scvs'. However, for Z this is a completely different story I feel. Anyway, in terms of concept this thread is very good, being able to spend your money and securing a superior income wins many games. I'm not even talking about ZvZ, which is incredibly volatile and frankly a bit stupid at the moment, this matchup often comes down to good micro. | ||
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teddyoojo
Germany22369 Posts
On May 01 2012 20:08 Hairy wrote: Zerg Macro: Good Macro: You hit every inject and your injecting queens don't build up energy. All your larvae are being used quickly to make drones, overlords, and combat units, and are not sitting idle. Bad Macro: You miss injects and your injecting queens build up energy, and/or you have larvae being left idle, instead of making drones, overlords and combat units. I disagree. its not bad makro just cuz u have idle larvae in midgame. zerg has this beatiful mechanic that you can actually not produce units until you have the proper information on the units you should create and then proceed to create them all in a short period of time (through not spending larvae) | ||
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Hairy
United Kingdom1169 Posts
On May 01 2012 20:53 teddyoojo wrote: I disagree. its not bad makro just cuz u have idle larvae in midgame. zerg has this beatiful mechanic that you can actually not produce units until you have the proper information on the units you should create and then proceed to create them all in a short period of time (through not spending larvae) Yes, in certain (rare) circumstances you may wish to make a strategic choice to intentionally delay using your larvae, but this is the exception to the rule. Why are you not objecting to the Protoss, or Terran macro standards? eg it was recommended that protoss should always be making probes and using their chronoboost, yet sometimes you want to cut your probes, or save chronoboost up to chrono out blink etc. | ||
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Galaxy345
Luxembourg28 Posts
I know my Macro is really bad, eventhough i think it is not too bad for my league ^^ But for example, on the Ladder, I'm only at about 43-46 SCVs at 10 min, opposed to the ideal 52 I play with Sound off, so that I will get punished even harder for Supply Blocks, and train looking on the Minimap (I already had 3 minutes Supplyblocks until I noticed.. ^^) ATM i play 1 rax Expo with Bunker against every Matchup, so I always play Macro Games. TvT -> Marine focused, Tanks after Medivacs TvP -> MMM and Ghost + Vikings TvZ -> Marine Tank (Ghost) Should I not focus on engagements at all? Just Macro and A move from time to time? I just have the feeling that I need to focus on my army or I loose, I mean I cant just A move into Templar, neither Infestor nor Tanks. Currently im the Boss of throwing 40+ Supply advantages away ^^ When I work on that, I lose focus of my macro game which I initially wanted to improve. Any Ideas how I can improve? What is the best way for a Player like me, who has a huge number of problems (Misclicking, Army Hotkeys, Macro, Reacting to Drops (Watching the minimap), and so on) My average APM is usually around 80-120 greetz Galaxy | ||
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Hairy
United Kingdom1169 Posts
Don't focus on "macro". That's WAY too big a subject. Watch this: http://day9.tv/d9d341/ The gist of it: Instead of trying to "macro", focus on one specific thing to improve at a time. For example, SCV production you already mentioned. Have SCV production your #1 priority - you want it to be flawless. Try to play the best you can otherwise with the remainder of your attention, but not at the expense of SCV production! You should also try to benchmark yourself, so you can track your improvement as you practice - this is important as it will motivate you and make you feel good to be able to plainly see improvement. You also want to try to ignore winning or losing. You shouldn't be focusing on trying to win - you should be focusing on trying to get better at the game. This is a subtle, but important distinction. In this case, try to be of the attitude that it doesn't fucking matter if you lose. Who cares that you died horribly to something stupid - your scv production that game was AMAZING! And that's what you were working to improve. It doesn't matter if you lost the game, because you got BETTER. Once you've done a bunch of games and you're happy your scv production is ace, and the intensity of trying to always check SCVs doesnt seem like such a burden anymore, then go back to playing "normally". Your scvs should be better! Or move straight into your next area of improvement, eg supply depos! | ||
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Galaxy345
Luxembourg28 Posts
Okay so Workers here I come :D | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
It's this kind of stuff, that makes people good. Not how they multitask and micro - such stuff only becomes important once you play an opponent who macros as good as possible. Though good macro needs a ton of multitasking as well  | ||
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Umpteen
United Kingdom1570 Posts
I'd really appreciate it if you could help me figure something out. This is a discussion I've had several times here on TL and having followed your threads avidly in the past I would value your thoughts tremendously. To state the problem as concisely as possible: playing for over a year as Zerg, reading TL, watching Day[9], 12 weeks with the pros etc etc, I failed to meaningfully improve either my macro or my ladder ranking until I watched some VoDs that helped me improve my understanding and decision-making. This flies in the face of everything far better players than I keep telling me. I know I shouldn't argue with pros and blue posters. At the same time, I know I didn't get anywhere just trying to focus on macro. It's important that I'm clear: I'm not saying that I improved my macro and it didn't help, or that I focused on something else, let my macro stay the same, and shot up the ladder. No: the point is that, in an actual game, 'macro better' felt like a meaningless abstraction after the first couple of minutes. I couldn't remind myself "I need to macro better" and act. I had idle larvae, my resources were piling up, I'd get myself supply blocked - and most of the time it was because I didn't have a clue what to do next. The advice in the OP of this thread (and elsewhere) has always implied that "What you do is far less important than doing it well." In my ignorance of what it's like to play Protoss or Terran, I could imagine that being true for them. But it has never felt true playing Zerg. What felt true was: 1. There is no 'safe' or 'standard'. 2. My only chances to win or gain advantage come after failed aggression on his part. If I make units and attack, I lose 100% of the time. That was the extent of my game-sense. I never articulated it to myself at the time, but how was I supposed to 'do that' better? It meant nothing. I couldn't get past the feeling that if I picked a way to spend my money, it was probably going to turn out to be wrong. Then I watched the Stoic ZvX vods, and I realised that everything I thought I knew was either wrong, or right but in a misleadingly incomplete way. And this was after twelve months plus of playing, watching dailies, following the pro scene etc etc. Within days I had risen a league and was starting to feel my macro holding me back, rather than just feeling stupid and lost. Since when I've found it far easier to concentrate on injects, concentrate on avoiding supply blocks or overspending on overlords, concentrate on taking and saturating expansions. I'm still shit at these things, but I'm not as shit, and it's because my mind is naturally drawn to them as a means to a definite end. In some respects I feel like a pretentious actor demanding "But what's my motivation?" I wonder if I'm too distracted by 'why' to just get on with stuff. What do you think? Am I just really stupid in a very specific way? Are high level players assuming too much gamesense because they just can't imagine how anyone could lack it? Is zerg as much of a special case as it seems to me? Thanks. | ||
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CecilSunkure
United States2829 Posts
On May 02 2012 00:18 Umpteen wrote: @Cecilsunkure: I'd really appreciate it if you could help me figure something out. This is a discussion I've had several times here on TL and having followed your threads avidly in the past I would value your thoughts tremendously. To state the problem as concisely as possible: playing for over a year as Zerg, reading TL, watching Day[9], 12 weeks with the pros etc etc, I failed to meaningfully improve either my macro or my ladder ranking until I watched some VoDs that helped me improve my understanding and decision-making. This flies in the face of everything far better players than I keep telling me. I know I shouldn't argue with pros and blue posters. At the same time, I know I didn't get anywhere just trying to focus on macro. It's important that I'm clear: I'm not saying that I improved my macro and it didn't help, or that I focused on something else, let my macro stay the same, and shot up the ladder. No: the point is that, in an actual game, 'macro better' felt like a meaningless abstraction after the first couple of minutes. I couldn't remind myself "I need to macro better" and act. I had idle larvae, my resources were piling up, I'd get myself supply blocked - and most of the time it was because I didn't have a clue what to do next. The advice in the OP of this thread (and elsewhere) has always implied that "What you do is far less important than doing it well." In my ignorance of what it's like to play Protoss or Terran, I could imagine that being true for them. But it has never felt true playing Zerg. What felt true was: 1. There is no 'safe' or 'standard'. 2. My only chances to win or gain advantage come after failed aggression on his part. If I make units and attack, I lose 100% of the time. That was the extent of my game-sense. I never articulated it to myself at the time, but how was I supposed to 'do that' better? It meant nothing. I couldn't get past the feeling that if I picked a way to spend my money, it was probably going to turn out to be wrong. Then I watched the Stoic ZvX vods, and I realised that everything I thought I knew was either wrong, or right but in a misleadingly incomplete way. And this was after twelve months plus of playing, watching dailies, following the pro scene etc etc. Within days I had risen a league and was starting to feel my macro holding me back, rather than just feeling stupid and lost. Since when I've found it far easier to concentrate on injects, concentrate on avoiding supply blocks or overspending on overlords, concentrate on taking and saturating expansions. I'm still shit at these things, but I'm not as shit, and it's because my mind is naturally drawn to them as a means to a definite end. In some respects I feel like a pretentious actor demanding "But what's my motivation?" I wonder if I'm too distracted by 'why' to just get on with stuff. What do you think? Am I just really stupid in a very specific way? Are high level players assuming too much gamesense because they just can't imagine how anyone could lack it? Is zerg as much of a special case as it seems to me? Thanks. I think I understand what you're trying to say. What it seems to be coming down to is that with Protoss and Terran it's very easy to have an understanding for the separation of your worker production, and other types of production. With Zerg however it's kind of muddled together, and so a new player would have to learn a proper pacing of worker production, since it's a more open ended task. | ||
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Monkeyballs25
531 Posts
On April 14 2012 02:39 PinheadXXXXXX wrote: Yesterday I tried playing 5 games and not focusing on strategy, and it was a huge success. G1: I faced a protoss deathball and an opponent with roughly even macro, so I had to land some EMPs to get somewhat even engagements. But I kept maxing and remaxing more quickly until I was way ahead and I attacked and won. G2: I was 6-pooled without my wall up in time, but I had 5 more workers than usual so I simply fought the lings and won easily after moving out with some marines and hellions. G3: I went pure bio. My opponent went mech. I couldn't win this with all my stuff because of his 15 siege tanks, but with one simple flank I got an even trade, remaxed quite quickly, attacked, and won. G4: I faced pure roach against my pure marine army, but I won easily with my 30 more supply. G5: I faced a proxy stargate, but I had so many marines that it didn't matter. I'm glad that you won the games with better macro, but you shouldn't discount the value of strategy entirely. | ||
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Mauzel
United States421 Posts
I tell my friends that the counter to roaches and banelings are just drones. With a high enough mineral income and an overlord in front of their ramp, you can hold the majority of roach allins by throwing down 7 emergency spines once you see them move out. I have won a number of games with mirror builds because I care about timing my gas on my third so that it finishes the same time as the hatchery. Of course, there are a couple of other subtler things here happening (scouting, overlord positioning), but it is superior macro that makes ZvZ my best MU. | ||
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1st_Panzer_Div.
United States621 Posts
As a side note, I think one key for the platinum-diamond level in addition to macro, is start working your upgrades consistantly as well. The only thing better than a big army, is a big +3/+3 army. Thanks for the OP, re-read it myself as it's a good stuff, even for people not in 'lower' leagues. | ||
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Oboeman
Canada3980 Posts
On May 02 2012 03:53 Mauzel wrote: Actually, I regularly beat top 8 masters zergs in ZVZ almost purely with superior macro. I tell my friends that the counter to roaches and banelings are just drones. With a high enough mineral income and an overlord in front of their ramp, you can hold the majority of roach allins by throwing down 7 emergency spines once you see them move out. I have won a number of games with mirror builds because I care about timing my gas on my third so that it finishes the same time as the hatchery. Of course, there are a couple of other subtler things here happening (scouting, overlord positioning), but it is superior macro that makes ZvZ my best MU. I agree that a lot of ZvZs come down to pure macro. If you are quick and accurate with your drone timings you saturate quickly enough that you can go directly from drone production to roach production without a hitch. You can hold off roach all-ins without even cutting drones. When you get into 3 base roach wars, one guy can easily lose the game by getting supply blocked or missing injects. | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On May 02 2012 03:53 Mauzel wrote: Actually, I regularly beat top 8 masters zergs in ZVZ almost purely with superior macro. I tell my friends that the counter to roaches and banelings are just drones. With a high enough mineral income and an overlord in front of their ramp, you can hold the majority of roach allins by throwing down 7 emergency spines once you see them move out. I have won a number of games with mirror builds because I care about timing my gas on my third so that it finishes the same time as the hatchery. Of course, there are a couple of other subtler things here happening (scouting, overlord positioning), but it is superior macro that makes ZvZ my best MU. Actually, as a Master Zerg, ZvZ is the only MU for me in which I can screw up my macro completly and still win with better multitasking, micro and positioning. I agree that you can win purely based upon macro, but I have made the experience, that in mirror battles as Zerg, it is the only time you can win based upon your micro and not upon just having to much for him to outmicro you. That being said, I'm not relying upon this, but when I really screw up my macro in ZvZ, my opponents won't see a weird "gg" out of the blue, unlike in the other MUs, were I tend to not waste my time hanging in lost games. | ||
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Heh_
Singapore2712 Posts
On May 02 2012 01:58 CecilSunkure wrote: I think I understand what you're trying to say. What it seems to be coming down to is that with Protoss and Terran it's very easy to have an understanding for the separation of your worker production, and other types of production. With Zerg however it's kind of muddled together, and so a new player would have to learn a proper pacing of worker production, since it's a more open ended task. How about this: to macro well, inject well and don't get supply blocked. Get up to 2 bases quickly (unless there's some cheese you scouted). Obviously making only drones is suicide, just build 16 drones per base +3 for every gas taken. When making a building, build 1 drone to replace the one lost. After saturating each base, build 3 inject waves of units then put down a new hatch. When the hatch comes online, saturate it. Then build 3 inject waves of units again. Rinse and repeat. If your minerals float about 800, put down a macro hatch. | ||
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Monkeyballs25
531 Posts
On May 02 2012 04:03 1st_Panzer_Div. wrote: Completely agree. A friend bet me recently I couldn't take an account from platinum to master with only making stalkers (and observers, but no cannons) Army supply, which is a direct result of macro, is king at lower levels. Collossi/Immortal/Zealot vs blink stalkers in a battle... well duh the stalkers lose. Unless your army supply of stalkers is double the 'correct' ball. Do you have a replay pack, or even a few games? I watched all of the mass stalker to Diamond replays, but they're quite dated now. | ||
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