EPTIt's totally not the same thing.
We aren't saying here "make millions of drones". We are saying 'make millions of stuff'. Drones, units, whatever. An all-in takes good macro to execute too.
[D] Underused Tactic in Lower Leagues - Page 14
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
It's totally not the same thing. We aren't saying here "make millions of drones". We are saying 'make millions of stuff'. Drones, units, whatever. An all-in takes good macro to execute too. | ||
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BoxingKangaroo
Japan955 Posts
On April 13 2012 06:55 seupac wrote: The problem with probes and pylons threads and tips is that your target audience is your target audience BECAUSE they refuse to listen to this very piece of advice. I cant even comprehend how many times I have told friends that all they need to do is macro efficiently. I play against bronze-platinum friends who have these crazy strategies named after pro players like "ret style double evo into fast broods" or "marineking style mech pvt" where they focus so hard on these "plans" but completely miss out on basic macro so badly that I can and do literally anything I want and still win. The worst part is at the end of the game when they say something like "I had a bad engagement at my 3rd" or "my plus 2 armor finished late". Its less a problem of probes and pylons and more a problem of being honest with yourself for these people. It hurts to be told that the reason you lose is because you didn't pull off basic macro properly. you want to lose to engagements and timings and enemy builds like the pros you watch. The other funny constant complaint I get (and see in here) is the "I will lose to all ins". My response : GO LOSE THEN. You are doing yourself SUCH a huge favor in low leagues by dying to an allin with 50 drones instead of expanding late and building units to be "safe". There is such thing as good losses and bad wins when you are trying to improve, and if you go out and focus on macro every game EVERY win and EVERY loss will be GOOD. Go lose 10 games in a row right now or even 20 because once you get your macro down you are gonna jump two leagues anyway. Agreed. I think a more valuable thread would be strategies on how to get lower league players (like myself) to listen to this advice. It's hard to accept that you actually do suck at macro, even harder when you're told this by someone who, despite being so much better than you, says their macro is horrible too (i.e. TL masters players). One person suggested playing some FFA's. These have lower level players and seeing how easily they lose because of bad macro can open your eyes to how much macro is important. FFA's have long queue times though, so I think something else is needed. | ||
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Monkeyballs25
531 Posts
On April 13 2012 15:40 BoxingKangaroo wrote: Agreed. I think a more valuable thread would be strategies on how to get lower league players (like myself) to listen to this advice. It's hard to accept that you actually do suck at macro, even harder when you're told this by someone who, despite being so much better than you, says their macro is horrible too (i.e. TL masters players). One person suggested playing some FFA's. These have lower level players and seeing how easily they lose because of bad macro can open your eyes to how much macro is important. FFA's have long queue times though, so I think something else is needed. For individual cases, the best way is to just mirror their build order, but do it with proper macro, and point out -how many seconds earlier your timing attack can hit -how many more units you should have by the time the opponent's attack hits Or just link to a few standard "Masters level macro demo" replays and give them the standard benchmarks. | ||
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Monkeyballs25
531 Posts
On April 13 2012 14:31 Belial88 wrote: You can't just blindly make drones. You can make up to 30 drones no problem if the opponent takes gas. You can make 40 drones no problem if the opponent expands. You can't just make 50 drones and hope the opponent is bad, no matter what, they're 1 base will hit and kill you. Yeah my reply was just to the guy saying that losing while making 50 drones is a "good" loss. Only if you're able to identify *why* it was a bad idea to make 50 drones in that case, but not in another case. And you've identified the basic scouting rules that tell you this. | ||
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Tobberoth
Sweden6375 Posts
On April 13 2012 16:01 Monkeyballs25 wrote: Or just link to a few standard "Masters level macro demo" replays and give them the standard benchmarks. This is something which needs to be standardized and promoted... maybe a big thread, or a whole website. The one thing which makes 3hatch roach such an amazing build in ZvP right now is that it's figured out to the point where any zerg can sit down and learn it while not only following build orders, but also evaluating their macro. It's a known fact that no matter how you pull it of, you should have 3 hatches, about 60 drones, a roach warren, 4 gas, an evolution chamber and not be supply blocked while around 70+ supplyby the 8 minute mark, because that's what good macro players can do. This gives massive motivation to work on your macro because you can play a game, go back and check your replay and see just how bad your macro was. This build is the only one I know with such a clear benchmark, would be awesome to see for all standard builds in all matchups... how many stalkers at what minute when doing a 2base allin blink +2 stalker? How many marines and how many marauders when doing a stim push off a 3rax? These kind of benchmarks are IMO key to let players improve their macro, since at higher leagues such as gold and platinum, it starts to become a bit more difficult to evaluate your macro than in bronze and silver when we're usually talking massive lack of workers. | ||
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PinheadXXXXXX
United States897 Posts
G1: I faced a protoss deathball and an opponent with roughly even macro, so I had to land some EMPs to get somewhat even engagements. But I kept maxing and remaxing more quickly until I was way ahead and I attacked and won. G2: I was 6-pooled without my wall up in time, but I had 5 more workers than usual so I simply fought the lings and won easily after moving out with some marines and hellions. G3: I went pure bio. My opponent went mech. I couldn't win this with all my stuff because of his 15 siege tanks, but with one simple flank I got an even trade, remaxed quite quickly, attacked, and won. G4: I faced pure roach against my pure marine army, but I won easily with my 30 more supply. G5: I faced a proxy stargate, but I had so many marines that it didn't matter. | ||
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Mirror0423
United States175 Posts
And yes, pylons and probes is on the top of the priority list. A ton of lower league players always feel so overwhelmed by the fact that they have to do multiple things at the same time, and they don't have the hand speed/experience for everything just yet. And the trap in SC2, and also in BW was that all the "cool flashy, OMFG i saw this in GSL/OSL" stuff is towards the bottom of the priority list. The least important of the skill sets in SC2 and BW is what makes you feel badass. If you micro 1 banshee to kill 10 scvs and 10 marines, you feel a lot more badass than if you had spent that time making 8scvs started 5 more raxes, 5 more supplies and 30 more marines. As long as you know your limitations at that moment in time, and do the "top priority" things first, you can jump easily to diamond lvl in NA. I mean assuming that anyone who has played seriously for a few months will have 60~70+ APM, and that's all you need to get to masters. | ||
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iokke
United States1179 Posts
On April 12 2012 14:59 CecilSunkure wrote: Nah, truly it's more like once you hit mid+ Master's does it starts getting to the point where you can't just mess around and still win easily most of the time. But if course if you're macro abilities cap out at around Platinum, then it'll feel like you require significant strategy to start winning to make up for macro deficiencies. The feeling of requiring to incorporate strategy is relative to each person's ability to macro, hence the whole point of this topic. I really like this quote, and for the OP as a whole, you do make a point... But i was really hoping to read up on lots of tips from you about how to keep your macro going. Guess I'm spoiled by your other guides.. Well, this is a {D] anyway. Plus there probably are only few tips you can give anyway (and you did give some, like spamming nexus hotkey to check production, practicing vs AI). Other possibly useful things are to queue probes after a warp in and halfway through WG cooldown for an easier macro cycle.. edit: something I've done recently cause I wanna sack 1 of my accounts back to diamond was completely not giving as shit about winning. To ensure, even if I win I offer opponents to surrender the game to them. It turned into a great thing! For some games, i specifically focus on probes and pylons with little worry about anything else. For other games I worked on my timings.. My macro went up, I actually won lots of games easily (well dropping MMR prolly also factored in), improved my timings a lot... and regardless of the result there is no stress. Never knew I could enjoy losing so much, and I think its really helping my game  .. Plus its really funny how greatful some people are if u offer them free points after u defeat them.I guess what Im saying is if you forget about trying to win, it clears your mind a bit and allows you to focus on other things much more. Now you actually trully focus on getting better and not winning short-term. | ||
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Fugue
Australia253 Posts
I'm gonna take a stab at it here... Good macro is having a highly refined process of getting your economy, technology and army produced as efficiently as possible. Coming to realisations that making overlords at the incorrect time - before they're needed as well as after, making units or static defense without a proper purpose, and failing to adapt to changes in your income smoothly, having unused larvae for any reason - all make a hugely significant impact on this, has led to a much more relaxed playstyle for me. And I realise that while I knew this stuff and I'd tried to institute methods of naturally performing it, I'd let my mind wander to all sorts of other things and the fundamentals would just drop right off. I now have much less map awareness as my scouting isn't quite as good, but I was scouting to work out whether to drone or make units, while the larvae sat there doing nothing, so it's not having a negative impact at all. | ||
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King of Town
Netherlands26 Posts
On April 06 2012 09:30 CecilSunkure wrote: ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/b5oOH.gif?1) ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/DPeDu.jpg?1) I agree. And I think I can help you get the message across better. See the problem is this: you have too many messages. The more informative part of your message is hidden somewhere in the middle of a sea of text, insights, convincing examples etcetera: On April 06 2012 09:30 CecilSunkure wrote: Here's a small list of what let me win my matches so convincingly in the Gold league (in order of most important to least):
This is what people need to take away from your post, right? I agree completely, and I'm ready to learn. You ordered them from most to least important. They also seem to be ordered from least to most complex, with the last three points extremely simplified. This is necessary, otherwise the list would be unreadable. The problem is that because this little list is not in the right place, the post has conflicting messages. The intro implies that probes and pylons, excluding everything else ever will get you to master's. The body text with all the examples implies that we/they need to listen to you. The list implies that we need to work on several simple macro-related issues, in order of importance. And from discussion in the topic, I gather that the last three issues in the list, largely ignored in the post and for good reason, are of course key in the higher league. All this results in your target audience reading your simple message, then saying 'I tried this', then getting patronized by people who do know better (i.e. not you target audience) for not appreciating the nuance of all the other messages. My solution - restructure a bit: Make a single message. + Show Spoiler + choose: Probes and pylons get you to platinum This list will get you to diamond What does it even mean, good macro Diamond players suck, look Probes and pylons are important even at the pro level Explain the message immediately, as far as necessary (list or short paragraph). Then convince people if necessary. Put all the super-convincingness in one place, to avoid patronizing. Then explain the application. You have good examples. Finally conclude, repeating your message. This is important, partly because you can add nuance here. Once again, I agree with the macro message and I like the details and examples. Thank you Cecil, for putting all that effort and making such nice guides. I post this because I believe everything can be improved, and you made an impressive effort in the biggest communication challenge in SC2. | ||
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CecilSunkure
United States2829 Posts
http://www.justin.tv/cecilsunkure | ||
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nttea
Sweden4353 Posts
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Zrana
United Kingdom698 Posts
You can't just look at a replay and say "hmm that game my macro was bad, next game i will do it better". This is because macro and mechanics are so closely linked that they are basically the same thing. Good macro means having: -an efficient hotkey setup -knowing what the action you need to do next is, without having to think about it -fast hands and muscle memory (this will come with time) -a decent build order imo the brain is what slows people down the most, not hand speed. If you know what the next 4 or so actions you need to do are, you will execute them much quicker than if you do the first action, consider what to do next, do that one, consider the next one etcetc Also i'm not sure that a high masters playing against low leagues and winning with macro is really anything new or insightful. I know loads of bronze/silver league players and (assuming they are even vaguely bothered about improving) they know that macroing is very important. The real trick is actually doing it. | ||
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HeroMystic
United States1217 Posts
I'd like to thank Cecil, Belial, and others who emphasized just how much the lower leagues suck so horribly at macro. I've steadily got better with my macro over time, as well as watching replays of pro players and listening to pros speak about how to play the game and how to use strategy and coming up with right composition. All I have to say to that is, until you're Master League, none of that matters. Today I focused intensely on macro and won most of my matches (except for TvP because I kept getting rolled by DTs). I trolled and went 1-rax expand 3-Port Banshee/Viking in TvZ and for the other matches I just made units until 10 minutes and pushed to see if I won (and most of the time I did). So as a Platinum Terran, let me stand on the soapbox and say Macro is hard. You really have to focus on it and make it become second nature. Then and only then should you focus on other efforts of strategy. That said, I was also hoping that someone here could analyze a recent game I played and tell me my macro mistakes so I know what to focus on: http://drop.sc/169740 Things I noticed right away that I got supply blocked a few times and I forget to put SCVs on gas on my natural and 3rd expansion. | ||
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Rimak
Denmark434 Posts
I want to thank Cecil to thank him, after reading this guide it got me back to basics. Some time ago when i was just learning the game i was paying attention to building pylons and probes and eventually progressed throught ladder to silver, gold and to plat. At that point i shifted my vision to getting a better build and better production, upgrades, basically to have A LOT OF STUFF! And i thought i was doing okay, but this guide got me to watch for probes and pylons again. Basically my mistake is that with better production, and money spending, that I manage to get, I constantly supply-block myself and then build bunch of pylons, and that's money that I could use somewhere else at the moment. So question is: 1. What is a good supply gap to start building pylon? (i know 2 supply early, 4 later... but next?) 2. How many pylons should i build at a time (is it always 1 or mb. 2,3,4??) Thanks in advance. | ||
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Hairy
United Kingdom1169 Posts
On May 01 2012 17:26 Rimak wrote: So question is: 1. What is a good supply gap to start building pylon? (i know 2 supply early, 4 later... but next?) 2. How many pylons should i build at a time (is it always 1 or mb. 2,3,4??) Thanks in advance. It doesnt work like that. As your rate of income increases, your ability to produce units accelerates. This means as you progress through the game, you need to leave a progressively larger supply gap for new pylons so that you can continue to produce units without getting blocked. To clarify: the perfect pylon/overlord/depot is one that finishes exactly at the moment that you needed the extra supply. No earlier; no later. If you build them too late and get supply blocked this is obviously bad. But it also bad to build it too early! This is something many people overlook. An easy example is zerg droning hardcore ZvP earlygame. If you build an overlord earlier than you needed to this means you spent your money on an overlord now, and drones AFTER; instead of drones now, THEN the overlord. This means that some of your drones hatched later than they could have. Therefore, those drones did not get the chance to mine as many minerals as they could have. Which means you don't have as much money as you could have. Which means you aren't able to build as many more drones as you could have, which means you get less money than you could have, ...... You get the idea. Small differences like building supply at the right time (as late as possible without getting blocked), or having idle larvae, really build up to make a huge difference. | ||
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Blazinghand
United States25551 Posts
On May 01 2012 17:43 Hairy wrote: It doesnt work like that. As your rate of income increases, your ability to produce units accelerates. This means as you progress through the game, you need to leave a progressively larger supply gap for new pylons so that you can continue to produce units without getting blocked. So, basically you should be building a pylon every warpgate cooldown for every 4 warpgates you have, plus a little extra so you can make probes (which will absorb about 1 pylon per minute with 2 nexuses). I rule of thumb I use as Terran is 1 depot constantly building until 2 bases, then 2 depots constantly building. The easiest way to figure this out is to watch your replay and troubleshoot your personal pylon production. When are you overbuilding pylons? When are you getting supply blocked? And do better the next time. | ||
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Rimak
Denmark434 Posts
Should be fine now (in some practice ofc) | ||
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Tevian
Germany11 Posts
On April 13 2012 08:24 Monkeyballs25 wrote: I don't think blindly making 50 drones is either particularly difficult or particularly rewarding, its basically a coin-toss. You'll score some free wins against an opponent that doesn't know to attack you while you're doing it, just like you'd score some free wins using an all-in they don't know how to defend. Can only quote this, this is basically what lower leagues are from a Zerg perspective. I don't lose 4 in 5 ZvZs because I'm bad at macro, I just lose them because I couldn't scout fast or well enough. It's really a gamble. You can only hope for your zerglings making it past the natural, other than that you gotta live with playing almost blindly. So you either expand and maybe die, or you don't expand/delay and then die to a superior macro force. I think I'm rather good at macroing (for my league), but the moment someone hits me at an usual time or simply with an all-in, macro won't help me as much as scouting could. When in the middle of drone production you see 12 lings run across the map, good luck getting up a spine in time, especially given you have a lot less than 12 lings yourself and minerals all in drones. I literally only lose games at the moment because I get all-inned all the time. That's where this advice is too much to ask for and not really all that useful. The moment I get the chance to outmacro my opponent I just flat out beat them, but I don't see how that comes as a surprise. I do better against plats than I do against silvers, because they're just so predictable. Unfortunately it doesn't get me out of the league I'm in currently. Edit: I guess before I receive some really bad reactions, I'll just say that OP is generally right though. Just from my own Z perspective macro will win your games against P and T, but ZvZ is a whole different story. | ||
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Blazinghand
United States25551 Posts
On May 01 2012 18:56 Tevian wrote: Edit: I guess before I receive some really bad reactions, I'll just say that OP is generally right though. Just from my own Z perspective macro will win your games against P and T, but ZvZ is a whole different story. I think with Z it works differently though, and this just might be because you don't play P or T so let me explain how things work as P and T. Protoss Macro: Good Macro: Nexus queue always in use, constant probe production; Nexus Energy always in use-- shit is getting chronoed, whether it's units or probes or upgrades or whatever. Bad Macro: Nexus queue sometimes not in use, probes are being cut; Nexus energy builds up-- shit isn't getting chronoed. Terran Macro Good Macro: CC queue always in use, constant scv production; OC energy always in use-- shit is getting muled unless you're specifically saving for a scan or whatever. Bad Macro: CC queue sometimes not in use, scvs are being cut; OC energy builds up-- mules are being missed. What this means in general: Good Macro: your Town Hall resources are constantly being used-- your queue is always doing something (for P and T this means making workers) and your energy is always being used. Bad Macro: your Town Hall resources are not always being used-- you're getting supply blocked or forgetting to keep yoru queue active, and your energy is building up. So now, when you look at Zerg, what does "Good Macro" mean? I'll tell you what it doesn't mean: It doesn't mean "only drone" or "mass drones" or some equine feces like that. It means what it means for the other races: your Town Hall resources are always being used. So the question is, what are Zerg's Town Hall resources? Well, they are: 1) Larvae, generated naturally by the Hatchery 2) Larvae, generated via Queen injections So, for a Protoss or Terran player, an accumulation of energy on the CC is analogous to the accumulation of energy on a queen. But how do we correspond the "constantly make SCVs / have your town hall queue always working and doing things" with the zerg equivalent? Well, the Zerg equivalent of cutting scvs is having idle larvae. It doesn't matter whether those larvae were gonna be zerglings, or drones, or overlords, or whatever-- as long as they're idle, they're doing what an scv cut would do to a terran. So when you as a zerg player see people saying "constantly make workers" don't think "hurr durr I'm only going to make drones" because that's not the zerg equivalent-- the zerg equivalent to a constantly-working CC or Nexus is constantly-working larvae. If you hit your injects and constantly use your larvae, you'll be able to make a bigger army, and have more income. Now, a certain number of those larvae are going to drones and overlords and stuff, but when a guy says "focus on probes and pylons" don't think "ok i'm not gonna make combat units", think "I'm gonna focus on making sure I use my larvae. It's a fairly common mistake for new Zerg players to not fully get the "probes and pylons" analogy since as a Zerg you have the capacity to ONLY make drones and overlords. That's not what people are saying. They're saying to optimally use your Town Hall resources-- make drones, sure, but #1 goal should be to hit injects and put all your larvae to good use. So, in summary: Zerg Macro: Good Macro: You hit every inject and your injecting queens don't build up energy. All your larvae are being used quickly to make drones, overlords, and combat units, and are not sitting idle. Bad Macro: You miss injects and your injecting queens build up energy, and/or you have larvae being left idle, instead of making drones, overlords and combat units. This means that you can make pure drones and overlords AND hit all your injects AND never get supply blocked and still have bad macro. Just allocating what larvae you do use to economy isn't good macro. Just injecting and making ovies isn't good macro (but it's a part of it). Zerg macro is about the production and utilization of larvae. | ||
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