EPT[ Probes and Pylons ]
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/b5oOH.gif?1)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/DPeDu.jpg?1)
Yes, the underused tactic I'm talking about is Probes and Pylons. It can also be known as Overlords and Drones, or SCVs and Supply Depots. You make them and you improve!
Okay it's not quite as simple as just making them and improving, but the simplicity of the idea I'd like to spur discussion about is quite interesting. I also have a video that everyone should take a look at linked below that attempts to support my argued end of the discussion.
IDEA: Players in lower leagues undervalue what is truly important, and focus on smaller details that are low priority for the circumstances in which they reside.
I'll propose that there are three things a player that who is not in Master's league fails to achieve*; constant worker production, no supply blocks, spending of resources. It's simple: you get a lot of workers to get a lot of money, and then you spend that money on a big army. But, what is undervalued here is how much bigger this army really is, and how much your play is affected by very simple fundamentals.
*I'd actually say that most all players on NA don't do these things very well, including those GM players, but that's a little off-topic
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/g76Ld.png)
I propose that: Down in any league that is not Masters, you can win most of your games by ensuring that there are no flaws in the process of getting your income and spending your income. You must not lay a building down late. You must not lay extra pylons down when you don't need them. You must lay tech structures at appropriate times. You must maintain solid worker production. Your resources must be constantly spent. You must have a basic grasp of what unit composition to acquire.
Luckily all of the "complicated" or "advanced" things from the previous paragraph, such as when to place what structures or what composition to get and when are answered by better players. You can ask for advice on TL, you can look for replays, and you can look for VODs if you are unsure of anything. All you really need to figure out on your own is how to use your mouse and keyboard efficiently to ensure that you can make your probes and pylons.
I've recorded a VOD of myself playing on a Gold league account against a few people as Protoss. I also play a game as Terran (I suck at Terran). I still win because I had so much more resources than both of my opponents. This VOD was recorded because I was talking to someone on Skype, and they said:
Guy on Skype said:
[4:08:14 PM] Guy: Sigh.
[4:08:14 PM] Guy: People say that [I should just make probes and pylons].
[4:08:16 PM] Guy: But then I just die to shit
[4:08:21 PM] Guy: like really stupid shit
[4:08:14 PM] Guy: Sigh.
[4:08:14 PM] Guy: People say that [I should just make probes and pylons].
[4:08:16 PM] Guy: But then I just die to shit
[4:08:21 PM] Guy: like really stupid shit
Well if you focus on the priorities and play a very safe and standard game, how can you die to stupid shit? You'll have so much shit you can't possibly die to stupid shit.
Here's a small list of what let me win my matches so convincingly in the Gold league (in order of most important to least):
- Little to no cuts in probe production
- Little to no supply blocks
- Constantly spending money
- Placing appropriate structures/tech at appropriate times
- Good positioning of army
- Not taking unnecessary risks (investing in extra cannons, a scout observer)
LINK TO VID: VOD <---
Key things to look for in the VOD:
- Resource discrepancy from myself and my opponents.
- Probe production
- Supply blocks
- Mechanics
- Minimap watching/usage
- Army placement
- Decision making (not throwing units away or making blind movements or unnecessary risks)
- Minimap watching/usage
Take note that I have an advantage that should be stroven for by lower league participants: mechanics. As defined in my old How To Improve Efficiently, mechanics is the ability to perform necessary actions in order to play the game in the way desired by the player. I use mechanical skills such as constantly hotkeying my army and unit production facilities (robo, warpgates, nexus). I have an observer hotkeyed when I want one on the field. I had a Warp Prism hotkeyed at one point. I utilize fkeys for screen positions over my bases so I can easily bounce between them and macro properly. I watched the minimap diligently and spot a Nydus worm at one point. These mechanics are really the catch of this whole idea: in order to make your probes and pylons you need to be able to make your probes and pylons. It sounds redundant I know, but it's overlooked.
SMALLER DETAILS: I mentioned earlier when I proposed my idea that players in lower leagues focus on [relatively] unimportant details instead of the higher priority ones. I myself have hundreds and hundreds of hours of coaching with many different players in all the various leagues. It's my professional opinion that most players don't value their probes and pylons like they should. Although, setting aside my professional opinion for discussion, I'd venture a guess that players often think of minute details. Here are some examples of what students think about before I have taught them anything:
- Does chargelot/archon really work in PvX? Don't the Archons just smash force fields making your army weaker?
- Do you think that I should be shift clicking my force fields, or casting each one individually?
- What is your hotkey setup? Do you think placing your Colossus to key closer to the left side of the keyboard is a good idea?
- Do you ever purchase Hallucination in order to do some sort of timing attack?
- Are Warp Prisms really the answer to <insert strategy or strategic problem>?
- What is the counter to <insert unit>?
These are just the questions people ask me during coaching. What about what people actually think about when they lose? "He played like a faggot" - one of my opponents actually called me a faggot because I beat him so badly in the VOD. What would happen if he admit he can't make probes and pylons like I can? Would he be more likely to improve if he did realize this?; "If I didn't play such faggots I'd be higher on ladder"; "I lost because of bad luck"; "I can't believe he won because <insert unit/strategy> is imbalanced"; "That's so imba"; "I have no way of scouting"; "I would have won if I just made this one small change"; all of these sorts of thoughts distract from the true importance: Probes and Pylons. Don't over-complicate it! You won't need to focus on minute details until other larger more important things are taken care of.
So what do you think? Is this whole Probes and Pylons idea really true? Or is it garbage that you can just focus on these two things while letting better players decide on what strategies to use? Can a lower league player really take on this form of play and win more games due to true improvement?
INTERESTING QUOTES:
On April 06 2012 10:35 memcpy wrote:
Another thing I think you should mention is the importance of keeping up on production. Even with a small worker count I see lower level players banking more money than their entire army is worth. I'm guessing this has to do with the stigma on queuing units and the ideal of copying pro players with their perfect mechanics and minimum production facilities.
I often refuse to throw down a macro hatch when I float resources due to a missed larva inject because it seems like a waste of money. However, building an additional hatchery could mean winning the game due to the extra larva and extra zerglings/drones I could be making.
Nearly all players have macro issues, even pros, and your PERSONAL macro capabilities should be taken into account when deciding how many buildings to produce.
A few good examples of pros who benefit from "differing" from standard macro practices:
HuK - If you watch his stream I guarantee you have seen the mass warpgate spam. Late game he will throw down upwards of 10 additional gateways once his money floats too high.
Stephano - Building mass ling is one of hardest things to do because it requires so much larva and missing a single inject can destroy you. I've seen Stephano throw down a macro hatch for every 2 or so bases when going his mass ling style.
oGsTOP - He queues workers. Because of this, he averages one of the highest worker counts of any Terran in GSL. It's common to see a game of his where his worker count gets around 70-80 by the 15 min mark.
Another thing I think you should mention is the importance of keeping up on production. Even with a small worker count I see lower level players banking more money than their entire army is worth. I'm guessing this has to do with the stigma on queuing units and the ideal of copying pro players with their perfect mechanics and minimum production facilities.
I often refuse to throw down a macro hatch when I float resources due to a missed larva inject because it seems like a waste of money. However, building an additional hatchery could mean winning the game due to the extra larva and extra zerglings/drones I could be making.
Nearly all players have macro issues, even pros, and your PERSONAL macro capabilities should be taken into account when deciding how many buildings to produce.
A few good examples of pros who benefit from "differing" from standard macro practices:
HuK - If you watch his stream I guarantee you have seen the mass warpgate spam. Late game he will throw down upwards of 10 additional gateways once his money floats too high.
Stephano - Building mass ling is one of hardest things to do because it requires so much larva and missing a single inject can destroy you. I've seen Stephano throw down a macro hatch for every 2 or so bases when going his mass ling style.
oGsTOP - He queues workers. Because of this, he averages one of the highest worker counts of any Terran in GSL. It's common to see a game of his where his worker count gets around 70-80 by the 15 min mark.
On April 06 2012 11:39 Kambing wrote:
For many people, macro is one of those things that falls under the Dunning-Kruger effect. The problem is making people aware of how important macro is and then giving them the proper training and exercises so that they can measure their progress. Usually the people that are resistant to that kind of advice don't know how a game feels when you do have good macro or they don't know how to concretely improve that aspect of their play.
For many people, macro is one of those things that falls under the Dunning-Kruger effect. The problem is making people aware of how important macro is and then giving them the proper training and exercises so that they can measure their progress. Usually the people that are resistant to that kind of advice don't know how a game feels when you do have good macro or they don't know how to concretely improve that aspect of their play.
On April 06 2012 16:18 darkscream wrote:
This thread isn't actually about a strategy, it's about stubborn people.
This thread isn't actually about a strategy, it's about stubborn people.
This one is pretty funny:
On April 06 2012 16:49 Belial88 wrote:
Generally, anytime someone is arguing with a high masters/blue, especially on something big, it's because they have no fucking clue what they are talking about (hey, I've been guilty of it many times, and every time, I was completely wrong).
I don't think these lower level people realize just how much better someone a league up is, or a high masters is, then them. You won't have a single high level player saying macro isn't the absolute most important thing in the game.
So quit arguing with a high masters blue poster here. He really knows his shit, you don't. To think that you would know more about this game, with the less than 1,000 games you've played, less than 100 hours logged on playing starcraft ever in your life, against someone with 10,000+ games played with over 1,000+ hours logged in, who's followed starcraft for about 8 years longer than you have, is just ridiculous.
Like you caught something he didn't get. It's like trying to tell Michael Jordan on the nuances of basketball. Holy shit.
Generally, anytime someone is arguing with a high masters/blue, especially on something big, it's because they have no fucking clue what they are talking about (hey, I've been guilty of it many times, and every time, I was completely wrong).
I don't think these lower level people realize just how much better someone a league up is, or a high masters is, then them. You won't have a single high level player saying macro isn't the absolute most important thing in the game.
So quit arguing with a high masters blue poster here. He really knows his shit, you don't. To think that you would know more about this game, with the less than 1,000 games you've played, less than 100 hours logged on playing starcraft ever in your life, against someone with 10,000+ games played with over 1,000+ hours logged in, who's followed starcraft for about 8 years longer than you have, is just ridiculous.
Like you caught something he didn't get. It's like trying to tell Michael Jordan on the nuances of basketball. Holy shit.
RESOURCES: http://drop.sc/154633 - Vs proxy hatch unscouted.
VOD - 3 games of probes and pylons vs some Gold leaguers.
, and no attacking untis, AT ALL) Seriously, if you get these mechanics down, you win games! Hope this helps 
