EPT[D] Underused Tactic in Lower Leagues - Page 4
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Zealos
United Kingdom3576 Posts
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DrKillface
Australia106 Posts
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Charon1979
Austria317 Posts
On April 06 2012 16:49 Belial88 wrote: Generally, anytime someone is arguing with a high masters/blue, especially on something big, it's because they have no fucking clue what they are talking about (hey, I've been guilty of it many times, and every time, I was completely wrong). I don't think these lower level people realize just how much better someone a league up is, or a high masters is, then them. You won't have a single high level player saying macro isn't the absolute most important thing in the game. So quit arguing with a high masters blue poster here. He really knows his shit, you don't. To think that you would know more about this game, with the less than 1,000 games you've played, less than 100 hours logged on playing starcraft ever in your life, against someone with 10,000+ games played with over 1,000+ hours logged in, who's followed starcraft for about 8 years longer than you have, is just ridiculous. Like you caught something he didn't get. It's like trying to tell Michael Jordan on the nuances of basketball. Holy shit. As a lower league player I 100% agree. Macro is the most important thing (as in constant production, no supply blocks and keeping money low). BUT and this is the point ML/GML players seem to consider as "easy" ppl lack also in Multitasking. And i dont mean Multitasking in a sense as in "dropping 3 places at one while microing the shit out of my tank/marine army while expanding and Planting 3 additional barracks" Most lower league players I know actually have decent makro IF (and thats the big IF) left alone to "Probes & Pylons & Army" 12 minutes roach max out? Give a Gold player 10 - 20 tries to figure out Gas and Roachwarren timings and sooner or later he WILL hit the max out around 12 minutes. Now put the same player against another player. You will see his money rise, you will see him miss injects, you will see him getting supply blocked, you will see him with mass idle larvae. Why? Did he suddenly unlearn everything he learned for the last 30 games? Did he suddenly forget how to macro? Let me take this to an area im better in: Martial Arts Tell your Students how important are basics. Train basics every day, after they learned their basics quite well (as in starcraft there is no "perfect") let them train with a Shinai (wooden sword). After they learned their basics there and they are quite competent with their weapon, give them REAL weapons. All of a sudden everything is different, they dont remember the basics, they dont remember the techniques. All they see is the sharp edge of the other students sword. How is it any different of what we trained? Its not. Does it FEEL different? Hell yes! It feels a LOT different. So back to starcraft: In a "macro only situation" there is no need for scouting, no need to react to changing situations, no need to deal with early aggression, no need to remember the opponents timings, no need for even basic army micro. Its just probes + pylons + army. You NEED multitasking, you NEED to get away from the "If i dont look at my army, it will die!" feeling (altough it happens from time to time), you NEED to do may things and priorize these things. That is the hardest thing to do if you have just a small amount of actions available. Even if you KNOW what to do, ppl tend to make mistakes in stressful situations. Another point ML/GML seem to just ignore. Playing competitive against complete strangers IS stressful for the most low league players. Its even stressful to me. Stress is different for different ppl. I could tell you that it isnt a stressful situation if 2 ppl want to get you in a bar brawl. To me it isnt, to you it possibly might be. So multitasking, handspeed/precision, mindset ist the MOST important part to me, because without these 3 Pillars everything else WILL suffer. I think thats the reason why 1 or 2 base all-ins are so powerful in lower leagues. First you focus on probes and pylons and after you reached "the end" of probes and pylons you focus on army (+ warpins for example). You just have to focus on one thing instead of two or more. just my toughts | ||
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Elefes
Russian Federation164 Posts
And I'm really bad at SC2, which I played less than a year so far. That game (Teeworlds to not sound too abstract) I didn't quite learn since there're were literally 0 guides, I just played for fun. Tried different stuff. Learned some tricks. Saw smth that better players did and tried to pull off. And grinded TONNS of games. Cause it's been f**ing FUN. Gradually mechanics became so good that I may play bored, tilted, drunk and tired and still show my B-game (lag influences more). If some kid showed me a guide on how to do shit in that game, I would've reached middish level WAY faster, yet I wouldn't ever become significantly better that an average player. I wouln't be able to benefit from my personality. I wouldn't have been able to do some sick stuff because some moron would've told me that it's impossible to do. It's just.. Just.. Be curious, I don't know.. LOVE THIS GAME. | ||
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MstrJinbo
United States1251 Posts
On April 06 2012 17:57 Charon1979 wrote: As a lower league player I 100% agree. Macro is the most important thing (as in constant production, no supply blocks and keeping money low). BUT and this is the point ML/GML players seem to consider as "easy" ppl lack also in Multitasking. And i dont mean Multitasking in a sense as in "dropping 3 places at one while microing the shit out of my tank/marine army while expanding and Planting 3 additional barracks" Most lower league players I know actually have decent makro IF (and thats the big IF) left alone to "Probes & Pylons & Army" 12 minutes roach max out? Give a Gold player 10 - 20 tries to figure out Gas and Roachwarren timings and sooner or later he WILL hit the max out around 12 minutes. Now put the same player against another player. You will see his money rise, you will see him miss injects, you will see him getting supply blocked, you will see him with mass idle larvae. Why? Did he suddenly unlearn everything he learned for the last 30 games? Did he suddenly forget how to macro? Let me take this to an area im better in: Martial Arts Tell your Students how important are basics. Train basics every day, after they learned their basics quite well (as in starcraft there is no "perfect") let them train with a Shinai (wooden sword). After they learned their basics there and they are quite competent with their weapon, give them REAL weapons. All of a sudden everything is different, they dont remember the basics, they dont remember the techniques. All they see is the sharp edge of the other students sword. How is it any different of what we trained? Its not. Does it FEEL different? Hell yes! It feels a LOT different. So back to starcraft: In a "macro only situation" there is no need for scouting, no need to react to changing situations, no need to deal with early aggression, no need to remember the opponents timings, no need for even basic army micro. Its just probes + pylons + army. You NEED multitasking, you NEED to get away from the "If i dont look at my army, it will die!" feeling (altough it happens from time to time), you NEED to do may things and priorize these things. That is the hardest thing to do if you have just a small amount of actions available. Even if you KNOW what to do, ppl tend to make mistakes in stressful situations. Another point ML/GML seem to just ignore. Playing competitive against complete strangers IS stressful for the most low league players. Its even stressful to me. Stress is different for different ppl. I could tell you that it isnt a stressful situation if 2 ppl want to get you in a bar brawl. To me it isnt, to you it possibly might be. So multitasking, handspeed/precision, mindset ist the MOST important part to me, because without these 3 Pillars everything else WILL suffer. I think thats the reason why 1 or 2 base all-ins are so powerful in lower leagues. First you focus on probes and pylons and after you reached "the end" of probes and pylons you focus on army (+ warpins for example). You just have to focus on one thing instead of two or more. just my toughts I dont follow your martial arts example. If a student forgets the fundamentals than you shouldn't give him a blade in the first place. | ||
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Rainofpain
United States125 Posts
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Sakray
France2198 Posts
As an ex broodwar hardcore player, I kept my mechanics and my habits of making non-stop probes, so sometimes when I watch my replays I see that I have 100 probes at what, 18-20min ? On 3-4 bases. Sometimes I stop making probes because I'm too busy microing/macroing/harassing/etc, but it's usually when I hit 80-90 probes. I found myself dying to players who have 30-40 probes/scv/drones on their 2 bases while I have 60 probes on my bases, and my economy doesn't allow me to come back in the game and roll their army/bases/etc. They're floating money and they have a bigger army while I spend mine as much as I can, growing my army, just to die to some a-move stuff (no kidding here, I always watch my replays even when I win). I disagree when people say "just make probes, pylons and stuff, you just need that to kill them", it's not true. You have to know a lot more things to win a game. Yes, you need to "build probes/pylons", but you need alot more. That's how I see this. | ||
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Ninety-Three
United States68 Posts
Keep doing what you're doing. I see a lot of disagreeing with ideas from master players from players who think there's a difference between "low gold" and "high gold". I don't know why it's so hard to listen to master league players at the top, and I have no idea what makes silver and gold players so certain that they know better because they've climbed out of bronze. Seriously, listen to the advice you hear from better players. They aren't lying ! | ||
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Micket
United Kingdom2163 Posts
On April 06 2012 17:57 Charon1979 wrote: As a lower league player I 100% agree. Macro is the most important thing (as in constant production, no supply blocks and keeping money low). BUT and this is the point ML/GML players seem to consider as "easy" ppl lack also in Multitasking. And i dont mean Multitasking in a sense as in "dropping 3 places at one while microing the shit out of my tank/marine army while expanding and Planting 3 additional barracks" Most lower league players I know actually have decent makro IF (and thats the big IF) left alone to "Probes & Pylons & Army" 12 minutes roach max out? Give a Gold player 10 - 20 tries to figure out Gas and Roachwarren timings and sooner or later he WILL hit the max out around 12 minutes. Now put the same player against another player. You will see his money rise, you will see him miss injects, you will see him getting supply blocked, you will see him with mass idle larvae. Why? Did he suddenly unlearn everything he learned for the last 30 games? Did he suddenly forget how to macro? Let me take this to an area im better in: Martial Arts Tell your Students how important are basics. Train basics every day, after they learned their basics quite well (as in starcraft there is no "perfect") let them train with a Shinai (wooden sword). After they learned their basics there and they are quite competent with their weapon, give them REAL weapons. All of a sudden everything is different, they dont remember the basics, they dont remember the techniques. All they see is the sharp edge of the other students sword. How is it any different of what we trained? Its not. Does it FEEL different? Hell yes! It feels a LOT different. So back to starcraft: In a "macro only situation" there is no need for scouting, no need to react to changing situations, no need to deal with early aggression, no need to remember the opponents timings, no need for even basic army micro. Its just probes + pylons + army. You NEED multitasking, you NEED to get away from the "If i dont look at my army, it will die!" feeling (altough it happens from time to time), you NEED to do may things and priorize these things. That is the hardest thing to do if you have just a small amount of actions available. Even if you KNOW what to do, ppl tend to make mistakes in stressful situations. Another point ML/GML seem to just ignore. Playing competitive against complete strangers IS stressful for the most low league players. Its even stressful to me. Stress is different for different ppl. I could tell you that it isnt a stressful situation if 2 ppl want to get you in a bar brawl. To me it isnt, to you it possibly might be. So multitasking, handspeed/precision, mindset ist the MOST important part to me, because without these 3 Pillars everything else WILL suffer. I think thats the reason why 1 or 2 base all-ins are so powerful in lower leagues. First you focus on probes and pylons and after you reached "the end" of probes and pylons you focus on army (+ warpins for example). You just have to focus on one thing instead of two or more. just my toughts Why don't bronzies play with this 'macro only' mentality. Forget about scouting, forget about unit composition, just focus on macro. If you can't multitask, don't multitask, don't do anything that might impede your macro. If you just focus on macro, and ignore anything else, you're gonna win sooooo easily. Bronze players don't move out until 9 minutes and if you have 100 supply by this point, you will have double their army. Its that easy. | ||
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Firesilver
United Kingdom1190 Posts
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Arlenius
United Kingdom49 Posts
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rythmatik
2 Posts
I was a mid level Silver playing other mid level silvers on SEA as a terran. Read a post somewhere on here where a guy did a VOD describing some test he did which was. * Que 3 SCV's at a time * Que 2 marines at each barracks * Que 2 supply depots * Extra Coin Buld Barracks * And expand at this time So very macro orientated. I have followed this except I did get gas and 3/3 marines very quickly aswell as stim and combat shields. Also tech lab 1 barracks and all the rest have reactors. Than I have thrown in 5 or so medivacs and 3-5 tanks. And well I have lost 2 out of my past 13-14 games and am now getting paired with platinum players and winning. And the main reason why is because I can just pump out 20 or so marines at a time even after I lose half my army. And I can only do this because I have built so many SCVS. Where as when I followed BO once the build order was done I wouldnt keep up with scv,s supply depots and would end up losing. But just buy focusing on basic - SCV's, Supply Depots, Marines, Upgrades, Barracks I have skyrocketed in wins. Now I am looking to start addind a stim timing push with what ever marines I have. And once I feel I have that down pack I will start dropping more often ect. Building on that base. Granted I have started to throw in vikings in TvP as collosi just rip through marines and plat players look to get them fairly quickly. Also TvT you do need early tanks - marines melt to tanks =P I reccomend lower league players do take this onboard alot or dont and I will jsut keep winning with mass marine & scvs =D | ||
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Arlenius
United Kingdom49 Posts
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Snoodles
401 Posts
On April 06 2012 23:26 Micket wrote: Why don't bronzies play with this 'macro only' mentality. Forget about scouting, forget about unit composition, just focus on macro. If you can't multitask, don't multitask, don't do anything that might impede your macro. If you just focus on macro, and ignore anything else, you're gonna win sooooo easily. Bronze players don't move out until 9 minutes and if you have 100 supply by this point, you will have double their army. Its that easy. When I was Bronze I was trying to improve by following three seperate build orders for every race and playing like the pros. it didn't work. I was too slow in micro-ing my scout, trying to figure out what the scouting means, and reacting and building counters. "Oh, he's got a bunch of void rays? I guess I should make vikings, it totally won't take 5 minutes." I finally got out of bronze by just making marines and marauders every game, expanding every 6 minutes, and maxing out somewhere between 14-16 minutes and just A-moving huge bioballs. | ||
Teoita
Italy12246 Posts
On April 06 2012 23:55 Arlenius wrote: You must make workers, not get supply blocked, spend money, lay structures at the right time... SO basically play perfectly (short of perfect micro. Cheers...really helpful No, you have to have good mechanics, not play perfectly. Play perfectly includes that plus perfect scouting, positioning, engagements, timing attacks, harassment (and harassment defense) and army micro. Cecil's point is that so very often, in lower leagues players are concerned with the latter instead of the former. | ||
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Charon1979
Austria317 Posts
On April 06 2012 22:43 MstrJinbo wrote: I dont follow your martial arts example. If a student forgets the fundamentals than you shouldn't give him a blade in the first place. He knows his fundametals well, He even trained it for years. But you cant just tell him "ignore the sharp edge of the blade, it doent matter." Because he cant just ignore it unless it becomes "normal" to him to deal with this risk. Lets go for another example: A wooden Plank, about 25 cm broad spans in 1m hight across shallow water, no problem to cross it. Right? Its easy. A wooden Plank, about 40 cm broad spans in 10m hight across a mountain gap, should be even easier - the board is broader. And now ask 10 ppl which one they would use. You can tell then 1000 times "its easier", for them ists harder. Not because their mind is with the act of crossing, but with the consequences of falling. Which indirectly answers Mickets question: Why don't bronzies play with this 'macro only' mentality. Forget about scouting, forget about unit composition, just focus on macro. If you can't multitask, don't multitask, don't do anything that might impede your macro. If you just focus on macro, and ignore anything else, you're gonna win sooooo easily. Bronze players don't move out until 9 minutes and if you have 100 supply by this point, you will have double their army. Its that easy. Most Lower League players struggle with their mindset. They want to win. So, you do your probes and pylons, dont scout, dont multitask, dont do anything that might impede your macro AND (speaking as a zerg player): Get rolled over by a proxy rax bunker rush, 2 Port banshees, voidrays, 6Pool, cannon rush,.. All the sudden you stop your probes and pylons and swith to the "wrong" mindset: "If my micro was better I could have won" My point is not "Cecil is wrong", as a matter of fact I support his view of things. I just want to say "Many high level players take mindset, physical abilities and their own trained reactions as given." Which leads to the false assumption that macro ist the answer to everything. It covers a huge field, but without the right amount of actions available, without the right mindset, without a raw game plan - macro wont save you either. When ppl here swing the "macro Hammer" it often sounds like "Doesnt matter if you lose 30 Lings to a single baneling, as long as you remember drones + pylons." | ||
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Kovaz
Canada233 Posts
A low-level player who's focusing on macro will constantly be thinking "gotta build probes, gotta build pylons, check my resources, k gotta build probes again, getting close to supply block, more pylons." The ideal player would just subconsciously do all these things without really thinking about it. He's absorbing the information and reacting to it purely out of routine. So while he's thinking about his opponent's strategy, what timings to look out for, how to position his units, he's macroing without even thinking about it. That's the difference. It's not just macroing well that lower-level players need to focus on. It's refining their macro techniques to the point where they are subconscious and take up as little time as possible, so they can also think about the other parts of the game. | ||
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BoxingKangaroo
Japan955 Posts
So lets talk about: - Why do lower level players undervalue macro? I think this is obvious (but there may be other opinions). It's hard to blame macro when you lose to two port banshee. Hard to blame macro when a terran sieges your natural on TDA. Hard to blame macro when a Protoss deathball with FF's rolls over you. The fact is that whenever you lose, you're going to lose to some strategy or to some combination of units. Now although the ability to defeat these units and strategies is based on having good macro, it's simply more obvious to blame the strats and units because those things are what's killing your shit. - What are the best strategies for changing players mindset to value macro? Here is where the real gold of discussion lays IMO. I'm currently Plat (formerly Diamond) and I've heard 'macro better' a thousand times. Why aren't I Masters? Because my macro sucks I'm sure, and yet hearing 'macro better' hasn't changed my mindset in the slightest. I'm sure I'm not alone. So how about we brainstorm some practical, simple, effective methods that lower level players can drill on ladder to change their mindset and give higher priority to macro. That would make an interesting thread. Go. | ||
-Kira
352 Posts
 I aprove. | ||
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NachiMe
250 Posts
On April 07 2012 00:08 Snoodles wrote: When I was Bronze I was trying to improve by following three seperate build orders for every race and playing like the pros. it didn't work. I was too slow in micro-ing my scout, trying to figure out what the scouting means, and reacting and building counters. "Oh, he's got a bunch of void rays? I guess I should make vikings, it totally won't take 5 minutes." I finally got out of bronze by just making marines and marauders every game, expanding every 6 minutes, and maxing out somewhere between 14-16 minutes and just A-moving huge bioballs. If you're terran and you max out at 14-16 minutes you should be in high masters/GM. | ||
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