[L] Learning 2 base plays as Protoss - Page 2

ComaDose

Canada10357 Posts

March 30 2012 15:17 GMT

#21

beware most 6/7 gate styles don't really end up with you fully saturated on two bases.
a good way to do this is to actually cut probes so you get there faster.

Something I like to do if I am looking for a quick pvt is the ol 2 base quick colossus.
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1. If you scout no gas -> expand before you throw down your core (even pulling workers off gas).
2. Get 3 gates and a few sentries to feel safe. Get more gas. Have your stalkers keeping track of them.
3. Get a robo, and immediately when it finishes start a robo bay.
4. Immediately when the robo bay finishes start your first colosus and range.
5. While you second colossus is building cut probes and throw down a bunch of gateways.
6. Move out with your second colossus and warp in at a forward pylon.

But if you want to get better at macro the idea you should be pursuing is how can i get a safe 3rd base as fast as possible.

IamPryda

United States1186 Posts

March 30 2012 15:51 GMT

#22

On March 29 2012 04:40 Krissam wrote:
Doing 2 base allins every game just means you take wins you don't deserve. Practice real macro instead, you're gold, it's terrible right now so improving it wont be that hard.

Wins u dont deserve, do u know how stupied u sound. Don't post in a thread about learning to do 2 base allins if your are gonna whine about them, I think u wanted the thread about how to build 90 drones before a zergling thread.

Now to answer your question learning a simple 6 gate all in is the best way to start for lower level players it's outdated in PVZ but in pvt it's still very strong vs gasless expands builds but if you want to learn great 2 base play just watch mc replays. His forge fast expand into four gate pressure followed up by 7 gate allin is copied by most

las91

United States5080 Posts

March 30 2012 16:21 GMT

#23

On March 30 2012 22:59 Sated wrote:

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This is wrong on so many levels. This player isn't trying to do 2base all-ins to take easy wins, they're doing 2base all-ins because they know they can't macro on 2bases and want to have benchmarks (all-ins) to aim for in order to help them improve.

Seriously, it's silly to tell a low-level player to attempt 30minute+ macro games every time they play. They're going to make so many mistakes over a 30minute+ period that it's going to be hard for them to identify the mistakes that are important. In short, they're not going to improve efficiently if they don't have any targets to aim for.

Consider the case of a completely new player trying to improve their PvT:

The first thing you'd want to do is get them to macro properly on 1base by making them 4gate. The 4gate is a build that has a very, very clear target to aim for, making it easy for the player to track their mistakes.
Once they can do a 4gate consistently they're ready to try 2base play, so you move them up to something like 3gate -> Expand -> 6gate. You choose a build like this because it has a clear 1base target to aim for, just like the 4gate does, whilst also possessing a clear 2base target. This gives them two stages of mistakes they can focus on, helping both their early-game play (which is still evolving) and their mid-game play. It also helps them to analyse whether or not they should commit to an engagement, teaching them a skill outside of pure macro.
After they've got their macro up to a level where they can handle that type of build, you move them onto something more economic like 1gate -> Expand -> 6gate. Again, this build has very clearly 1base targets (the timing of the Nexus and the additional Gateways), whilst also having a solid 2base target to aim for.
After that they're ready for Immortal/Colossus all-ins because these introduce new macro skills by forcing them to use more hotkeys and builds than they did before. Finally, after they've mastered all these two-base builds, they're finally ready to ditch a couple of production builds and take a third instead of attacking.

Now, you say that they're going to get a lot of easy wins doing this kind of thing. That may be true, but I say they're also going to get a lot of dumb losses. If you're committed to 6gating every game then you're going to automatically lose to Cloaked Banshees - but doing these builds is about improving, so if you lose to something like that then you have to shrug and move on to the next game.

Think about it: If you can't macro well enough to execute a 2base all-in, how are you going to be able to handle 3bases? Or 4bases or 5bases? Answer: You're not. Gotta crawl before you can walk, gotta walk before you can run...

@OP:

For PvT, I think that the 2base Immortal All-In would be perfect for you. It has some very solid timings to aim for and has been shown to work at the very highest level of play: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=309028

Alternatively, a build I use a lot is a 2gate FE -> 6gate All-In. I wrote a guide on the 2gate FE that you can search for if you're interested, but it isn't exactly standard so I wouldn't recommend you learning it outright. The 6gate all-in is great, though, so here are some replays of me doing it (I have done it on better maps, these are just examples):
http://sc2rep.com/replays/(P)Sated_vs_(T)gilgamesh/18638
http://sc2rep.com/replays/(P)Sated_vs_(T)Ielmoere/18674

As for PvZ, the best idea would be to go for 4gate +1 Zealot Pressure and follow up with a 7gate +2 Blink All-in. This gives you two very clear targets to aim for. The guide for 4gate +1 Zealot Pressure doesn't really go into the 7gate transition, but the idea is that you throw down a Twilight Council so that it finishes when +1 does, and then throw down the three extra Gateways so that they finish when +2 and Blink do: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=309780

This post just won the thread. OP please read this post and look at the replays in-depth as they are solid choices for 2 base plays and will help you immensely with learning to macro. Another suggestion I have is to play these builds in a trainer like the old Macro or Die maps. It puts a bit more pressure on you than just playing practice games against the computer.

Markwerf

Netherlands3728 Posts

March 30 2012 16:52 GMT

#24

PvZ:
6 gate +1 attack all-in after FFE
or
7 gate +2 attack blink all-in.
Those two are hardest to stop for zerg in general I think and just really solid aggresive plays. The 8 gate stuff is silly as you can never sustain that anyways on 2 bases, 7 is more then enough.. (i really don't get why pro's go too many gates so often)

PvT:
2 base colo or 2 base immortal all in. Immortal all-in is really good if you are almost full stalker,sentry,immortal where you FF the bunkers and gradually kill off parts of them. Two base colo is more zealot heavy with 2 ranged colo and 6 gates.

GloPikkle

United States197 Posts

March 30 2012 17:09 GMT

#25

Ignore the morons who say "learn to macro for realz"

2-base timings are a great way to learn how to execute build orders, adapt to diversions, and beat people who are unprepared.
If you're Gold, trying to manage 3+ base macro will more likely set you back. Get comfortable on 2-base play with all-ins, then work in 2-base timings, then you can work in 2-base timings while expanding. That should get you into Platinum and from Plat you can learn 3-base play.

One must learn to crawl before run.

ThomasHobbes

United States197 Posts

March 30 2012 17:15 GMT

#26

Ignore the anti-allin rage.

Practicing 1-base, 2-base, and then 3-base play is a pretty solid method of improving your skill. It's hard to immediately jump into playing 4-5 base games, I know it didn't work like that for me, so there really isn't a problem learning 2-base builds in order to improve.

I'd practice 7-gate Allin'ing (at least against Zerg), and when you have it down, move on to 7-gate pressure (cut probes less and intend to take a 3rd after you do damage), and then finally moving on to light pressure into a 3rd base.

Taking it in stages is a good way to ease yourself comfortably into longer games.

TA_Protect

United States40 Posts

March 30 2012 17:20 GMT

#27

High master protoss here. My advice is to just practice your mechanics! Which mean throwing down your 9 pylon right when you have 100 min at the start. Then right when you have 150 min at 12 or 13 food, you throw it down and continue doing that with all the buildings you make. You'd be amazed how much more you can actually make/warp after tons of practice. this also practices looking at your money more frequently. When i watch replays vs other top masters, some of them dont have the best mechanics.

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[L] Learning 2 base plays as Protoss - Page 2

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