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SCTallbus
United States56 Posts
I wanted to know from Protoss' out there that know 2-base all-ins and timing pushes pretty well, what kind you do in PvZ and Pvt, and possibly a link or at least a rough outline? That would be awesome. Also general tips on all-ins and pushes as well as getting safely saturated on two bases would be awesome! Thanks | ||
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Krissam
Denmark189 Posts
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SCTallbus
United States56 Posts
On March 29 2012 04:40 Krissam wrote: Doing 2 base allins every game just means you take wins you don't deserve. Practice real macro instead, you're gold, it's terrible right now so improving it wont be that hard. But don't top Protoss' go through entire MLG's and GSL's two base all-inning, maybe it's not a big deal if that's what Protoss was centered around? I mean if Protoss has a strength why not use it? | ||
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Piledriver
United States1697 Posts
I think the main difference between a gateway all in and gateway pressure is the usage of chronoboost and worker count. As long as you dont use up all chronoboosts your gateways/wg tech and dont cut workers(less than 50) while attacking, you can easily transition to a third, as long as you have inflicted decent damage on your opponent. | ||
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AnachronisticAnarchy
United States2957 Posts
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iAmBiGbiRd
Australia1029 Posts
On March 29 2012 04:40 Krissam wrote: Doing 2 base allins every game just means you take wins you don't deserve. Practice real macro instead, you're gold, it's terrible right now so improving it wont be that hard. This was one of the worst responses i have ever read. 'Taking wins you don't deserve'. You serious?? If they don't scout properly, react accordingly to his two base all-in then how on earth do they 'Deserve the win' but he doesn't?? On topic practicing two base all-ins is a terrible way to practice macro as most two base builds require the cutting of workers at certain points which thus allows for you to push/take advantage of an opponent and means you will not be properly saturated anyway. I would recommend just playing more ladder with the mindset of macro games (Unless you see a weakness, obviously punish them for that) and try to make sure your bases are saturated, you have enough production facilities etc etc. When you lose watch the replay and see what you did wrong. If you had 60 workers but bugger all units and he had 35 workers then you know you played too greedy. If you have 3 base and 45 workers then you know you needed more workers. You get the idea, good luck  | ||
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Cadoink
United States67 Posts
This will improve your mechanics and macro. Divide and conque r. Find your flaws. Work on fixing them. Cad | ||
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Sekijitsu
United States47 Posts
On March 29 2012 04:40 Krissam wrote: Doing 2 base allins every game just means you take wins you don't deserve. Practice real macro instead, you're gold, it's terrible right now so improving it wont be that hard. That's a bunch of retarded bullshit. Are you saying that the players at the highest levels of competition who use 2 base all ins are taking wins they don't "deserve"?? I think you might be consuming water with high levels of metals and other toxins, possibly fluoride. Someone who can't macro well off 2 bases should "practice real macro instead"? What the fuck does that even mean? I might have respected your opinion had you bothered to define what you believe to be "real macro" but since you didn't, I'm going to assume you're some kind of mentally deficient abomination. TO THE OP: I'm a Platinum Protoss on the cusp of breaking into Diamond. So I'm not some kind of absolute authority on the matter but I will say that one of my standard builds I used to get into Platinum was a 2 base colo build. Although not as strong as it used to be, I would 3 gate FE and make one zealot and primarily sentries until I got up to about 7 or 8 sentries. Against Terran I would vary the unit composition somewhat but a nice sentry count was still part of the deal. Get a forge after you throw down your expansion and get plus one attack. After you've warped in a decent amount of sentries and started your robo I would add the 2 gasses at the natural and then tech to colo. After warping in sufficient numbers of sentries you should switch over to entirely stalker production from your gateways. Get about 2-3 colo and as many stalkers as you can manage. Ideally you want to be moving out around 13 minutes with 3 colo, a nice amount of stalkers, and of course sentry support. Nowadays, I do a very similar build except against Z I do it from a FFE and against T I do it after opening with the MC style 1 gate FE. Opening with a 1 gate FE will allow you to establish your force a little quicker, making it all the stronger. But, as I pointed out and you already know: 2 base all-ins are used at the highest level because they are quite strong. They are good for players at the gold level because it helps you work on truly refining and perfecting a build. Instead of just free wheeling it, 2 base all ins give you a decent amount to focus on while not being overly cheesy and simplistic. You still have to time things appropriately, focus on making the right unit types at certain points in the build, scouting to see what your opponent is doing, constant probe production and so forth. At Gold, this turns out to be just the right amount of stuff to focus on. Despite what people may think, you still have to play well with 2 base all ins. Not to mention the fact that just how "all-in" some of these builds are is a matter of interpretation and something that depends a great deal on what league you're in. There are many guides to some good 2 base builds here on TL. I would highly recommend you peruse the strategy section to find one that speaks to you. Against Zerg, the FFE into 4 gate harass into 2 base colo is still very strong. In the strategy section you can check out "Hero FFE" and also another one with Naniwa in the title. Specifics escape me at the moment but I know the guides are here. Were I not about to ladder like a mad man I'd take the time to find them and link for you.  | ||
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PeZuY
935 Posts
I suggest you to improve just one build for each matchup to get most out of the strategy since you are not in the masters. | ||
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ETisME
12380 Posts
On March 29 2012 04:51 SCTallbus wrote: But don't top Protoss' go through entire MLG's and GSL's two base all-inning, maybe it's not a big deal if that's what Protoss was centered around? I mean if Protoss has a strength why not use it? they are doing it because it is their trick down the sleeve/trump card/staple play and it is not their only strategy. they know how to transition from it depending on the damage they have done, they know which map is better for which type of 2 base all-in. How are you going to learn to do other stuff like when to grab a third base, your macro-ing, how much production can 3 base economy support etc? I mean you said you suck at macro-ing, why don't you even try to improve on that but to just do an all-in build? | ||
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Son of Gnome
United States777 Posts
On March 29 2012 04:51 SCTallbus wrote: But don't top Protoss' go through entire MLG's and GSL's two base all-inning, maybe it's not a big deal if that's what Protoss was centered around? I mean if Protoss has a strength why not use it? They have the macro to back it up, no offense but you don't. Eventually zergs will find out how to stop them easily and then you will be back where you started. Macro is the key at lower levels wins are not. WINS DONT MATTER IMPROVING DOES | ||
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oOOoOphidian
United States1402 Posts
in pvt try the old mc style 6 gate all-ins both can help you work on 2 base macro and the micro required for the unit they focus on | ||
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Glurkenspurk
United States1915 Posts
On March 29 2012 14:47 PeZuY wrote: I dont understand people whining over 2base play. It's as much as strategy as anything else and everything left UNSCOUTED from oponnent should lose the game, not because it's 2 base. I suggest you to improve just one build for each matchup to get most out of the strategy since you are not in the masters. But then the problem is that you're practicing a build that is based on hoping your opponent is too dumb to scout properly. It will probably give you lots of wins up until master, but is it really worth it? | ||
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LokPest
Norway21 Posts
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HinagikUx
United States178 Posts
On March 29 2012 04:40 Krissam wrote: Doing 2 base allins every game just means you take wins you don't deserve. Practice real macro instead, you're gold, it's terrible right now so improving it wont be that hard. worst advice ive seen on TL today LOL. on another note, +2 blink 7gate timing is strong, as well as a 2 collosus push | ||
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Bommes
Germany1226 Posts
On March 29 2012 04:40 Krissam wrote: Doing 2 base allins every game just means you take wins you don't deserve. Practice real macro instead, you're gold, it's terrible right now so improving it wont be that hard. LOL what a horrible advice. I think the point that the OP was trying to make is that even his macro on 2 base is horrible so he wants to train it with dedicated builds that should have exactly X units after Y minutes and with that he can measure his macroµ mistakes better and improve more clearly. | ||
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Sated
England4983 Posts
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KING CHARLIE :D
United States447 Posts
PvT - Don't waste your time with timing attacks in this matchup. Yes there are strong timings if you could possibly know 100% what the terran is doing, but REGARDLESS of what they are doing every two base timing is hard countered by scanning the nat at 8 mins and seeing no 3rd/4th gas and building bunkers and repairing. There is nothing you can do about this. Just play for the late game but not SUPER late game vs T. If you want my advice, there is definitely something to be said for being able to execute an all in PERFECTLY. I would argue that executing it perfectly is better practice than playing a long macro game. However, most players your level wont pay attention to detail enough to realize all of the inefficiencies in your build. Find a streamer that executes a 2base timing you want to use. Then look at his in game clock and write down SEVERAL timing benchmarks for you to meet...then make a custom game vs a computer and do the strategy over and over until it is at perfection. Then, settle for nothing less when playing it on ladder. In short, if you practice mistakes, you will make mistakes. PRACTICE PERFECTION! =D | ||
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alQahira
United States511 Posts
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=316082 | ||
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DoT_TL
Singapore47 Posts
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