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Greetings all... first (substantial) TL post here, so hopefully it's not too terrible.
I only recently noticed a potential exploit in Cloud Kingdom in PvZ. It involves placing a pylon and cannon at the natural 3rd of the zerg in such a way that the cannon is totally protected. Behold:
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/RpXz4.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/QheZM.jpg)
Now, the nook you're hiding it in is just barely big enough for the cannon to fit, which at first made me think that it would actually require TWO pylons - one nearby to build the cannon, and then another to seal the cannon in - as there is no room behind there for the probe to fit. I was wrong! If you put the probe in the nook, then build the pylon, you can still fit the cannon in, and the probe will magically phase out of the area. The beauty of this is that the probe is completely defended once the pylon goes down. Neither lings nor drones can get in, meaning absolutely no melee units can hit the cannon once you put it up. So, in return for 250 minerals, you completely deny the zerg 3rd. The cannon is too far from the main for a queen to attack it from the high ground. The zerg can make a spine, but the cannon is far enough away from the main hatch that you require a creep tumor to get a spine in range. That costs quite a bit of time.
In the limited time since I've discovered this, I've not lost a PvZ on Cloud using this tactic. The zerg is forced to take a faraway 3rd, which makes it extremely vulnerable to both stargate and 7-gate play. The effect of losing the 250 minerals early on in the game is that your tech is pushed back by about 40 seconds, which is worth it to me. This does make you a bit more vulnerable to roach/ling all-ins, but not terribly.
So, TL, does this look like a feasible strategy? Maybe even a broken strategy?
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Or they could head over with some roaches, or choose the further base; unless you do this at their 3rd and 4th. Even then, it only delays it for a bit.
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On March 11 2012 16:38 divito wrote:
Or they could head over with some roaches, or choose the further base; unless you do this at their 3rd and 4th. Even then, it only delays it for a bit.
I dont think you understand the impact of making roaches this early on to deal with the cannon
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On March 11 2012 16:38 divito wrote:
Or they could head over with some roaches, or choose the further base; unless you do this at their 3rd and 4th. Even then, it only delays it for a bit.
they won't have roaches. he's talking about delaying it when it's the response to a FFE, which is normally take a third around 4-5 minutes when they don't have more than 4ish lings out.
To the OP, i think it's good if it does in fact cause him to take a more vulnerable third. as you said, this can be easily exploited with a 7gate or perhaps even 4gate zealot/void.
i should also mention i think cannon rushing when they go hatch first is just generally worth it, as long as you're sure you can either deny or SUBSTANTIALLY delay the hatch
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thats pretty devious. makes me very unhappy  but i cant wait for when im offracing protoss :D
would be pretty hard to stop short of taking a different base or patroling a drone in the crevice when you are taking the 3rd
nice find
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This is another reason I veto cloud kingdom :p
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holy crap good find.
good thing i switched back to terran 
offracing as toss against my friend YAY!
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Nice spot, will definitely be taking advantage of that.
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I had someone do this to me after pylon blocking my natural. I took the third as my expansion and my standard 4 lings was enough to kill the pylon before the cannon finished - at which point I brought them back to my natural, killed that pylon too and got both my expansions up on time. The protoss was therefore out 400+ minerals for pretty much no reason, and it delayed his cyber core.
Any zerg planning to do 3hatch opening vs a FFE will have an overlord there to see everything also, so there should be no "surprise factor". You might do well to someone who doesn't react properly. If you actually get it finished with the cannon in tact behind the pylon behind the minerals, good on you. But the zerg should be able to see you plant the pylon and easily deny it if they actually intend on fast expanding there.
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zerg can just tech on 2 bases and if you're going mutalisks you can even take a delayed,far away third and still be ahead. 250 minerals is too much to invest early game if you're not going to do any damage with it. sure you're denying the third but if he hasn't started the third it's equivalent to placing a random pylon and cannon down in the middle of the map.
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I would strongly advise against pylon blocking the nat if you're going to use this technique. You really can't afford the extra minerals if you still want to get your nexus and cannon down at home reasonably fast. I also don't think you can have lings kill the pylon in time if you put down the pylon rather early. My build order is:
13 forge (regardless of what kind of pool timing I scout), 17 nexus, proxy pylon, home cannon, proxy cannon (all on 17 as well). The times when my opponent has put 4 lings on the pylon, the cannon finishes with the pylon still having >50% of its HP.
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Mal - the way I see it, the "damage" you are doing is forcing the zerg to either take a faraway third, which I can scout easily and punish, or tech on 2 bases, which I can be well prepared for. While it doesn't do any direct damage, it eliminates many options that the zerg would like to have, and I consider that good enough. I'm not saying it's an auto-win, just a neat tactic that an ffe-ing protoss can use to shape the very early game, during which time you'd otherwise have to be entirely passive.
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On March 11 2012 17:38 preeminence wrote:
Mal - the way I see it, the "damage" you are doing is forcing the zerg to either take a faraway third, which I can scout easily and punish, or tech on 2 bases, which I can be well prepared for. While it doesn't do any direct damage, it eliminates many options that the zerg would like to have, and I consider that good enough. I'm not saying it's an auto-win, just a neat tactic that an ffe-ing protoss can use to shape the very early game, during which time you'd otherwise have to be entirely passive.
but it doesn't get you into a great shape early game. 250 minerals is too much to throw away early game and you will be less prepared for the 2 base tech that the zerg will throw at you if you do this. you're putting yourself behind early for no reason. it's not like a 2 base tech zerg is something you can "prepare" for in a sense, it's pretty standard.
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Anybody who thinks that this isn't good for protoss is just lying to themselves. Any time a toss who ffe knows they can successfully cannon the zergs third, they will do it. Unless their build specifically is designed to be better against a zerg who goes 3 fast bases.
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The thing is that on Cloud Kingdom, 2 base zerg tech is simply not as good. Mutas are restricted by the fact that there is no "air space" on 2 sides of your base. Ground-based armies (infestor, hydras) are restricted by the fact that there is a high ground cliff overlooking your natural choke point. Positioning thermal lance colossi, stalkers, or - my favorite - another cannon on that cliff gives you an enormous advantage.
Knowing that mutas have to come from only 1 of 2 possible directions does help you "prepare." Knowing that ground units have to go through a meatgrinder also helps you prepare.
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If you've seen sen's stream, he makes the vertical third base (south of natural if top, north if bottom) work quite well in zvp with his style. This is only going to deny a possible third, but zerg still has another perfectly viable if somewhat more open option for a third. I mean, it's more of a forcing move than anything, but it could be very effective depending on your followup.
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The viability hinges on how many lings can get surface area on the pylon, which is not provided by the op. Pylons have 100 more hp than cannons and if a probe is nearby allows the threat of building another pylon to maintain power. This means in such situations of an isolated cannon and pylon, the Zerg does prefer to kill the cannon first. However, the concern of making the zerg kill a pylon instead of cannon first should be superseded by ensuring that either the pylon or cannon can only be attacked by a few lings. This factor is far more important to how many minerals the Zerg will spend on Zerglings instead of Drones.
From the picture, it seems that 5-6 zerglins can attack the pylon at once which I think is enough to take it down without to much harm to the zerg economy. If the probe can be microed well though (the zerg won't have speed) and kept in the vicinity to keep the cannon powered with more pylons, then the zerg may struggle in assessing the situation correctly and make too many or too few lings, choose a different third, or not take a third at all. However, making 10 or 12 additional lings in addition to the 4 starting ones, should be enough to safely take down the pylon and any more a probe may attempt to make. The opportunity cost to this is 300 minerals spent on zerglings instead of drones which I think may be seen as an almost equal sacrifice to that of the Protoss in the production of the cannon, pylon and probe, also 300 minerals.
If the Zerg is able to react in this way I don't think the Protoss can expect more than a slight edge. The 10 or 12 zergling addition to the 4 initial ones is a conservative estimate made on the basis of the protoss keeping the probe in the area and threatening to lay down two more pylons the instant the zerg engages them, which will not always be the case. It seems to me that this idea presents your opponent with a choice that's easy to get wrong and if so will put him or her at a potentially decisive disadvantage. If the correct response is chosen by the Zerg though, and is as I guess, then I don't think your idea is a game-changer, though it may be regularly provide a slight edge.
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Ok, nice spot.
Now every decent Z will be ready to deny that spot with 1 patroling ling , OR just take another 3rd, so you are just trading 250 mins for moving the 3rd away.
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On March 11 2012 17:35 preeminence wrote:
I would strongly advise against pylon blocking the nat if you're going to use this technique. You really can't afford the extra minerals if you still want to get your nexus and cannon down at home reasonably fast. I also don't think you can have lings kill the pylon in time if you put down the pylon rather early. My build order is:
13 forge (regardless of what kind of pool timing I scout), 17 nexus, proxy pylon, home cannon, proxy cannon (all on 17 as well). The times when my opponent has put 4 lings on the pylon, the cannon finishes with the pylon still having >50% of its HP.
http://drop.sc/129679
Here's the replay of the game I mentioned. As you can see, he actually places two pylons and the spot is slightly off, but it is the type of play you're talking about - the probe and cannon are inaccessible to melee units. However, with 4 lings and 1 drone, there is enough DPS to kill not one, but BOTH pylons before the cannon finishes. This protoss player opens 12forge, 16 nexus and pylons my natural also, so its likely your timing is a little different, this guy's version was not totally refined.
Still, I think the only way this play works is if the zerg player doesn't scout it in time. a 14p has 2 sets of lings on the field at 3:44 in my replay, so you'd have to have your pylon already finished by then (I think you'll just be placing it around then). Assuming the zerglings are touching the full health pylon at the time you place the cannon, they will kill it before the cannon finishes. So your cannon would have to start before zerglings reach the pylon.
It might work if the zerg goes 14pool, 16hatch, 16queen, 18overlord blindly without making ANY zerglings, but if they do that, they're being too greedy and deserve punishment for not scouting. IMO it is totally irresponsible to go without zerglings that late on a 1v1 map. Every pro zerg will scout this spot vs P if this particular attack becomes a fad, and scouting is all it takes to counter a cannon rush.
edit: In OP's screenshots, there's enough room for at least 4 lings on the pylon, perhaps 6. In my replay, I had only 2 lings on each pylon the second a photon cannon started, and my lings killed both pylons before the cannon was finished. Moment of truth is at 4:08, I get maybe one attack in before the pylons are finished warping in.
25 seconds * (5 damage per attack * 0.7 attack speed) = 178 dmg PER zergling during a cannon's build time (not factoring building armor). Pylons having 400 HP (well, 200hp/200shield), 2 zerglings will have dealt ALMOST enough damage to kill a pylon in 25 seconds (the time it takes for a cannon to warp in). 4 zerglings, or 2 zerglings and a drone, will dispatch it no problem. But, the zerg may not scout there, and if they don't stop it while its building, you certainly create a very annoying obstacle.
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Wouldn't this be hittable by a high ground queen?
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On March 11 2012 19:20 chestnutcc wrote:
Wouldn't this be hittable by a high ground queen?
The cannon is too far from the main for a queen to attack it from the high ground.
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Idk, someone did this to me right after i placed the hatchery (natural pylon blocked) and i had enough time to kill the pylon and then cannon with lings from 15 pool. (Im only diam though)
edit: i fail at reading posts
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That is why i ALWAYS have a overlord at my third, whenever i play a P on Cloud Kingdom :D
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It's cute, but seems fair enough.
If you want to throw away 250 mins that early (300 if they get the probe when it tries to leave), more power to you.
40 seconds late on stargate play can mean 2 extra queens or more creep spread to shut it down at the distant 3rd. I'd go so far as to say you would fail horribly by being even a bit late in stargate pressure.
If the zerg is smart, this basically forces you into 7-gate aggression to get any advantage from the move at all.
Not necessarily bad, but it's far from imba.
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EPT
