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This thread is not about removing fog of war at all. Too many people replying without reading.
What is fog of war? The fog that goes over a scouted area if you have no presence there any more.
The theory:
If you had infinity time to watch the game of Starcraft 2 develop eventually scouting would get so spot on that fog of war would be nearing 0 in effectiveness.
This theory is based on games like Starcraft: Brood War that showed builds getting so finely tuned that often fail scouts didn't have any effect since plan B could easily minimize the damage.
So if the above holds true you could in a way see how future Starcraft 2 will be played.
The trick is to imagine how people would play if there was no fog of war.
Some race specifics that would get stronger or weaker:
Terran could use the fact they have the strongest hard-counter-units of the three races.
Terran have the shortest time of vulnerability while setting up a new expansion and as such would have an easier time getting them up.
Terran could dedicate all energy towards mules in the early game.
Terran siege tank lines wouldn't get as many free kills.
Zerg could push the limit before they switch to army units from drones to the EXTREME.
The speed of zerg units would give them even more strength in flanking or circumvent the main army.
Zergs ability to have map control without any army units would diminish.
Protoss could more easily make the correct 200/200 death ball before moving out.
Protoss could even fewer times split up their main ball.
Protoss would not have much presence on the map before hitting the 200 supply mark.
Blink stalkers speed would be made stronger the same way mutas would.
Poll: What race would benefit the most from no fog of war?Zerg (76) 83% All about the same (9) 10% Protoss (4) 4% Terran (3) 3% 92 total votes Your vote: What race would benefit the most from no fog of war? (Vote): Terran
(Vote): Zerg
(Vote): Protoss
(Vote): All about the same
Discuss
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This is a little wacky. Even when scouting has been "perfected" it will not translate to knowing exactly what the opponent is doing all of the time. You will still be limited by things like the number of overlords you can feasibly sac, the number of observers you can build before you are wasting resources, etc.
You kind of half-admit this when you say that in Brood War, "fail scouts didn't have any effect since plan B could easily minimize the damage." While I would be inclined to disagree with this statement, I also have to point out that even if it were true, "minimizing" the damage is not the same as negating it.
Also a lot of the points you take for granted (terran could use the fact that they have the strongest hard-counter-units, protoss would not have much presence on the map before 200 supply, etc) are arguable in their own right.
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Zerg because they benefit the most from reactionary play.
Protoss could in a way make nothing but gates until they need to warp in units.
Meh for Terran because We make units and workers simultaneous no matter what but instead we can get into very good siege positions.
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Terran doesn't have the strongest hard-counters. No race has the strongest hard-counters. Hard-counters don't exist. In TvZ my hellions keep Zergs from pushing my base with infestor BL deathball by picking Zerg apart expansion by expansion. I delay it enough to get enough Ravens to bear-maul any army the Zerg can throw at me. My Hellions kill roaches, Queens, Spine Crawlers, Hatcheries, and are faster than Mutalisks and Broodlords.
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Honestly, I like some good posts from TL and stuff, but I really don't see how this could be a valid thread from strategy section.
I mean, wtf no fog of war?
Though I think zergs will get the most of it, because of their production.
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On February 29 2012 02:08 xTrim wrote:
Honestly, I like some good posts from TL and stuff, but I really don't see how this could be a valid thread from strategy section.
I mean, wtf no fog of war?
Though I think zergs will get the most of it, because of their production.
The goal is to try to see how things will develop. What strategies will stand the test of time.
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On February 29 2012 02:10 Arko.is wrote:Show nested quote +On February 29 2012 02:08 xTrim wrote:
Honestly, I like some good posts from TL and stuff, but I really don't see how this could be a valid thread from strategy section.
I mean, wtf no fog of war?
Though I think zergs will get the most of it, because of their production. The goal is to try to see how things will develop. What strategies will stand the test of time.
If so I guess terrans will have the worst of it. They have the slowest production of the 3 races, and have to make units all the time to remain competitive. That said, building one unit at a time the other races can hard counter them with a very fast production cycle.
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This is really confusing... and pointless
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never get caught unsieged against zerg, never miss a templer/colossus techswitch. definitely terran!
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oh a nonsense thread...
not having complete information is fundamental to this game. have you even thought about things as hidden expansions? mindgames? faking stuff?
plus: scouting is a skill. the game is easy enough.
a change like this would be simply gamebreaking.
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Stupid thread. Look at Stronghold and how stupid that game was because it had no fog of war.
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On February 29 2012 02:39 virpi wrote:
oh a nonsense thread...
not having complete information is fundamental to this game. have you even thought about things as hidden expansions? mindgames? faking stuff?
plus: scouting is a skill. the game is easy enough.
a change like this would be simply gamebreaking.
You should practice what you preach and read before you reply 
No one is talking about removing fog of war from the game.
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even speculating about it is a waste of time. no offense.
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Even in BW Proleague today 2 games relied completely on an all-in succeeding because the opponent would have trouble scouting it, both won. There's never going to be a time where players hold all the information so it's kinda useless to discuss it with the notion that it'll mirror SC2 in the future.
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Another theory-crafting thread coming from a player who wants to totally change the game based on a personal whim...pointless.
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Arko.is brings up a good point. Although we'll probably never see a fogless map, it is valuable to think about how you'd play differently if you could see what your opponent is doing. These lessons are directly applicable to ladder play.
Perfect information would lead to leaner builds; that first defensive marine or stalker's resources could be spent on tech or econ instead. Without the fog of war, most drops wouldn't cause much damage. However, certain techniques would be just as effective. Dropping a faraway base while moving your siege line up works well with or without perfect information because it forces your opponent to react or take damage one way or another. Likewise, pressuring the front forces defensive units and structures even if you both can see everything and they end up not committing to the attack.
How does this apply to fogfull games?
1) Builds that rely on catching your opponent by surprise are ineffective in the long term.
2) You can guarantee a particular outcome by correctly positioning your units, eg advancing your main army, harassing enemy economy, killing an expo.
3) There are points in the game when it is safe to expo; your opponent can't hurt you.
4) Spending on economy vs tech vs army at the right times is what decides the game.
5) Scouting is useless without knowing how to react to the information you acquire.
It would be really fun to watch some top players compete on a map without fog of war!
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I'm pretty sure Zerg would have the biggest advantage, not only because they could drone up to an extreme, but because slings are the most powerful unit in the game with correct positioning, don't allow a retreat and are mobile as hell (mobility is way more important if there is no fog of war).
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I think you mean by this is, a pro player upon reaching a level of play will have such a good game sense that it would be like he played without fog of war, which is completly innacurate.
No more cheese, no more fake all in, no more tricks or w/e. You'll be left with a boring long macro game that most people wouldnt take interest.
And why this is strategy, should have been in SC2 general or misc.
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Umm... First, this game isn't SC1 and currently there is no way to scout perfectly and there probably never will be. And so this theory crafting will never be true because I can still DT rush you OR warpgate rush you OR this OR that. In BW it was so much different because stategies simply weren't effective. You knew the terran was going mech TvP cause if he didn't he's terrible or super cheesing you. Etc etc. In SC2 there are a lot more strategies that are considered "effective" and a lot more that are flat build order wins while in BW there were a lot of ways to win with excellent micro and more direct ways of taking care of allins. And they PURPOSELY made scouting so it wasn't like brood war scouting. Which is why you cannot micro a probe vs slowlings forever like you could in BW.
And as to who would benefit the most, your poll doesn't include enough, it would be different based on matchups not based on race alone. In PvZ Zerg might benefit the most because they'd know what 2 base pressure or allin is coming always, defend it, and always know when to bust the Protoss. But in PvT Protoss might because terran drops are a big part of that matchup and knowing where the Terran army is at all times + drops would mean you couldn't be caught of guard missing forcefields or having stalkers in your main etc. Meanwhile Terran already knows what Protoss is up to most of the time. Colossi or double forge after 1 gate FE which can easily be determined already.
Oh and I read again the OP and I really don't get this at all. In the beginning you say "scouting will be so good that fog of war won't mean anything anyway" then the poll is "which race would benefit the most from no fog of war." those are like exact opposite statements (besides time differences). Just so you know. SC2 is a lot more random and always will be, and there's never going to be perfect scouting as it's so easily denied with "perfect scouting" by the anti-scouter. Heck scans aren't even reliable and they are the only scout that can't be denied.
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EPT
