EPTAgreed. You just need to know how to practice and spend your time wisely.
[H][D] Can 'anyone' be Masters? - Page 2
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DarkPlasmaBall
United States44256 Posts
Agreed. You just need to know how to practice and spend your time wisely. | ||
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Jacen88
74 Posts
First of all i think its nice to see SC2's demographic is bigger than 15-25 year olds. And I dont think age is a limiting factor here. Most players being of younger age is mostly due to pc games being most popular in this demographic and computer usage overall might be more 'natural' to them. But lets try to answer your questions: 1.: (improving) I believe there's always room to improve. No matter if its sports, school, computer games or any other skill you can possibly think of. Also certain is that there will be times when improving to the next level is a lot harder and takes way more time. This is, for expample, observed in every sport aswell. Learning curves are never linear. There will be times you're improving very fast and times that you're sitting at a plateau you have to break. E.g. changing the way you practice is an approach often used in sports to improve further. Same holds true for SC, im sure everyone is able to get to master league or even further, the time it takes people may differ vastly. While being able to click fast and accurate is indeed important, even more important is remembering things in the game. Good macro isnt about how fast you can click 'a' to make marines or something. Its about remembering to always make marines, supply depots etc. 2.: (apm) 80 average apm is alot, mine is about the same lvl, spiking in micro intensive engagements to ~200+, just as you described yours (I'm playing mid masters in 1v1 and top100 global in 2v2). Most players having higher apm will be spamming alot. If you're not spamming, but using it intelligent, you dont need more than 80avg apm to reach masters. 3.: (talent) Of course theres people that will have an easier time getting good at this game than others. Just as in every sport or subject you can think of. I, myself have always been in the highest league avalaible since beta. And I didnt really practice hard for it or anything. Im barely playing ~15games per season in 1v1 (cause i enjoy 2v2 much more), yet have no problem staying in masters league. Then again i have come to sc2 with quite a lot of rts experience (played alot of wc3, and basically any rts game a bit). So i dont know if you can say thats cause of natural talent. Imo its more about understanding the very principles of any rts game (such as not floating money, being accurate on your timings, educated guessing what your opponent is up to etc) Let's come back to your post again. You said you want to be 'competitive at masters level'. If this just means playing in masters league to you, id say yes, thats certainly possible for you. If that means competing at high masters, playing grandmasters and maybe participating in bigger tournaments, then no. This is the lvl you're time to practice really starts to be the dominating factor, dont think u can accomplish that with a full time job, and i dont think you should try, its just not worth it. As a last point, some advice about improving: Imo this comes down to just two important aspects you have to look at: 1. Understanding the game This includes knowing the popular/possible strategies in the match-ups relevant to you, understanding the basic concepts of ressource management (macro), build orders, things like when to engage and how to react to your opponent. 2. Your ability to actually play the game Basic things like knowing all your hotkeys, executing build orders, your micro abilities, mouse speed and accuracy, apm. Basically, 1 is knowing what to do and 2 is how good you are at actually doing it. For precise help on your gameplay this is the right place to ask. Just make a Helpthread with some replays and theres plenty of competent players here willing to help you improve. Hope it helps and didn't get too long to read at all :p best regards, jacen | ||
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-VoidRay-
57 Posts
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citi.zen
2509 Posts
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Jono7272
United Kingdom6330 Posts
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SnuggleZhenya
596 Posts
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Dariusz
Poland657 Posts
Try to approach this like you would approach any problem in your work. Ask - what is the most efficient way to solve it - then do it. You have ok APM and you need experience and practice. Take something from every game you play. Also, your current APM is not an indicator of how fast you can play, because it comes from how fast you can think and multitask, not how fast you can move your fingers. | ||
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sexyandiknowit
United States18 Posts
I don't ladder much at all - I play maybe 2-4 games a week, and yet I maintain my high master ladder rank. 1) Does this (slow) rate of progress indicate that I have roughly ‘found my level’? Ie I will be high Plat/low Diamond maybe but not much better. I can't speak for everyone since I am not 40+ years old myself, but I think that "old" age will only present a minor - if not insignificant - disadvantage. At your age, you are still bright and physically and mentally capable. Don't be deterred if you feel like you aren't progressing. I think that a lot of people are turned off of sc2 because they feel like they aren't getting anywhere. You are always improving, even if you don' know it. If you want to improve faster, you can try to find better ways and be more proactive about it (i.e. learning new builds, watching pro streams, looking at replays). I don't believe that there is a "skill cap" for certain people. 2) Will I be naturally capped by my low APM? Is APM like IQ ie it doesn’t really change that much over time. Or can anyone provide examples of how there APM has improved markedly? Although the new apm system is strange to me (i prefer the old apm, which is apparently coming back in patch 1.4.3), 80 apm is extremely high by current standards. When I obs games between GM and high master players, their apm usually averages around 50-60. I dont know why you think 80 apm is low, as this probably translates to around 150-250 apm in the old apm. A slow apm cap will only hinder you at the highest levels of play. There are many examples of (relatively) excellent players that have very low apm (such as Lobber or iNcontroL) and even top tier pros like Goody and Idra have very, very low apm. 3) Are there people in the Masters league who don’t have to practise that much to be that good? Ie is there such a thing as ‘natural talent’ in SC2 or is it basically application? There is definitely "natural talent". I think that some players are simply better suited for RTS games as opposed to FPS games (I'm terrible at most FPS or any other types of games). As with all things in life though, natural talent can't always beat dedicated practice. A combination of both is the best way to go, but you dont necessarily need both in order to be a very high level player. My practice at the moment consists of laddering and watching professional games. I do not have partners to play with and I’ve never had coaching. I am sure it is fair to say that both would benefit me but can anyone say they’ve improved dramatically as a result of either/both? If so, are these people who actually have a sh*tload more time to play than I do? Ie might I be better just carrying on laddering until I win the lottery and can play full time? You dont need partners or coaching in order to get better, although a good social atmosphere on SC2 might give you more incentive to play. I would recommend finding a few practice partners (just look up some popular channels - if you're on the NA servers, try TangStarcraft, xo, cvg, NMx, reddit) and playing with them. Coaching is imo a waste of money - anyone with the proper dedication can achieve high GM on their own. To get to top tier pro level, you WOULD probably need coaching, but since most top level pros dont coach or charge exorbitant ($300+ per hr) fees, its not really worth it. | ||
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VTFlow
United States84 Posts
2) apm really isn't significant whatsoever as long as you are multitasking and macroing / microing as needed 3) yes talent makes a huge difference but only at pro levels so anyone can get to masters or gm just takes time/effort | ||
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IMoperator
4476 Posts
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DaPyro
Serbia131 Posts
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roymarthyup
1442 Posts
i believe you just need to now fight against masters players and learn from losing to them if after 20 games against a master player, you cannot win a single time within that 20, then probably you have hit your wall and cannot improve. otherwise you should have learned a bit from it and been able to take off 1 game, or have a very close game i believe any masters player will suffice for this, so find one of the lowly masters that are offering coaching for 10 dollars an hour and just use that to practice plenty games against them or, possibly pay a masters 50 dollars to get your accounts MMR to high masters which should give you about 20 games until your MMR lowers and you face plats again | ||
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Mr_Kyo
United States269 Posts
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weikor
Austria580 Posts
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TyrionSC2
United States411 Posts
1) Does this (slow) rate of progress indicate that I have roughly ‘found my level’? Ie I will be high Plat/low Diamond maybe but not much better. Nah. Keep playing, watch replays, watch vods. Nobody has a constant improve rate, there will be spikes and lulls all the time. 2) Will I be naturally capped by my low APM? Is APM like IQ ie it doesn’t really change that much over time. Or can anyone provide examples of how there APM has improved markedly? APM will improve as you play more, and get better hotkey setups. It takes time, but it definitely improves as you play. I believe I started at 60-70 apm, then I hit diamond and started to get about 140 apm. In masters you don't even need more than 70 or 80 apm as long as your actions are good actions. 3) Are there people in the Masters league who don’t have to practise that much to be that good? Ie is there such a thing as ‘natural talent’ in SC2 or is it basically application? Being in master league does not necessarily mean that you practice all the time. It certainly helps, but liquidret for example only plays 3 hours per day. My practice at the moment consists of laddering and watching professional games. I do not have partners to play with and I’ve never had coaching. I am sure it is fair to say that both would benefit me but can anyone say they’ve improved dramatically as a result of either/both? If so, are these people who actually have a sh*tload more time to play than I do? Ie might I be better just carrying on laddering until I win the lottery and can play full time? I've used coaching once before, the coach taught me how to analyze replays at a professional level. Most people don't understand what to look for when they watch replays, so if you focus on learning how to watch replays you can definitely learn a ton from lessons. They can also point out some things, such as constantly being active with units. After my lesson I was directed to some replays, and my worst matchup (zvz) went from like 30% win rate to 14-2 in masters the very next day. So I'd say lessons are definitely worth it if you really want to improve. | ||
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marcelluspye
United States155 Posts
On February 16 2012 03:34 terrantosaur wrote: I have questions about what is realistically achievable in terms of improving at SC2. I’d never played RTS games before SC2 was released so came to the game as a genuine noob. I am 38 years old and have a full time job + other responsibilities that mean I cannot play nearly as much SC2 as I’d like. I work in finance (boo) and I have never actually met anyone who plays SC2! This means that I can’t swap war stories/strategies with mates. Essentially I have to improve in isolation (and with the invaluable help of TL). I do have a track record of being ok at things when I can devote time to them. I have represented my country in two different sports (neither of which involved a computer alas..) so I am not without coordination (although I'd like more please :-)). My experience with other pursuits suggests that, with enough application and a little bit of ability, you can achieve your goals. However my experience in terms of ‘rate of improvement’ with SC2 suggests that my view may be wrong. I’d like to get really good at SC2 (by this I mean I’d like to be competitive at Masters level) BUT, although I do try to devote all my spare time to it, I just don’t have time to spend more than say 3 hours a day (some of which will be spent watching pro games as opposed to playing). Here is my history: Season 1 – started in bronze, got to Rank 1 Silver. Seasons 2&3 – high Gold. Seasons 4&5 – high Platinum. I am now ranked 1 in my Platinum league. I play Terran on the EU server and my APM is maybe 80 average (but is very variable – there are moments when it hits 300 and moments when it is 0). I read the forums: many people just seem to ‘be’ Masters. Ie they just play the game and instantly achieve this sort of level (don’t ask me how). Almost all of the top players in the world are under 30 – let alone nearer 40 – so perhaps age also acts as a barrier to improvement, especially if you come to RTS gaming ‘late’. So to my questions: 1) Does this (slow) rate of progress indicate that I have roughly ‘found my level’? Ie I will be high Plat/low Diamond maybe but not much better. 2) Will I be naturally capped by my low APM? Is APM like IQ ie it doesn’t really change that much over time. Or can anyone provide examples of how there APM has improved markedly? 3) Are there people in the Masters league who don’t have to practise that much to be that good? Ie is there such a thing as ‘natural talent’ in SC2 or is it basically application? My practice at the moment consists of laddering and watching professional games. I do not have partners to play with and I’ve never had coaching. I am sure it is fair to say that both would benefit me but can anyone say they’ve improved dramatically as a result of either/both? If so, are these people who actually have a sh*tload more time to play than I do? Ie might I be better just carrying on laddering until I win the lottery and can play full time? I wasn't sure a 'replay' was necessary for these sorts of questions. Happy to provide if necessary. Simon staying gold and then plat two seasons isn't slow progress, it's just not lightning fast. The majority of people who are masters either have gotten there through practice over the past year, have had prior RTS experience or are just very naturally talented at the game. There is no reason to believe that you're going to stop improving, you might be plat/diamond for a while, but if you devote the time, you will get better. That is, assuming you're practicing properly and not just playing games mindlessly I don't think there is too much natural talent involved in SC2 even though I believe it exists, in that the only people in masters/gm aren't there by natural talent alone. Strategy games may come more naturally to some people than others, but unlike most sports, in which fierce practice must be fused with innate talent to be able to compete at a professional level, to become a top-level starcraft player requires only time, application and the right mindset, even if natural talent could speed up the process. If you think you have hit your personal skill cap, you will stay there. If you believe you can get better, and practice accordingly, you will get better. As for APM, you can increase your APM (and I do mean eAPM, not just by spamming), though I don't know if it's something that will improve solely by your regular practice. My APM has just about doubled since I began playing SC2 regularly, though I attribute much of this to my foray into Brood War, which has taught me better mechanics and increased my ability to, well, do stuff. I'm not sure if I even answered your questions, though I think a lot of it relates back to it, so I hope this is sufficient. On a somewhat related note, I've seen a lot of people in the thread recommend coaching. While it would almost definitely help to get some coaching, I don't think it's too important to be coached to improve at that level. Also reading the OP again, I see you mention age. The older you get, the slower your hands will want to move, even though they can move about as fast as they could when they were younger, assuming they haven't been damaged in some way. You can be a progamer when you're 60, as long as your hands and your mind can keep up. | ||
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abefroman
70 Posts
32 years old here. Been either tip top platinum or bottom of the basement diamond since around the middle of season 2. If I had to venture a guess, I don't see any reason why any person can't make masters. However....simply playing games isn't enough to do that, at least in my opinion. This game is incredibly difficult. It is more difficult for some than others, based on experience in other RTS...amount of time playing games in general. What makes it so difficult is that practicing the mechanics of it are only half the battle. I feel like I have relatively good mechanics in this game...when I have a purpose. For instance... my PvT is pretty strong. I beat someone a few times today in practice games, and they said they hadn't lost that badly to players in mid-high masters. On the other hand....I am perfectly capable of losing to a gold level player....consistently, with my pvz or zvt. I just don't understand the matchups. At all. So, essentially what I am saying, is that there is a lot of meaningless practice in this game. I feel right now that if I play 100 games of zvt, I will not improve. I don't know what to look for. I don't know how to look for it. I don't know how to respond. Moreover....because 90% of what I am doing in my zvt is wondering what in the world I should be doing, my mechanics/macro goes to hell, and even if i somehow made the correct decision I would still lose. This is why I feel I get WORSE with every game I play in some matchups. Long story short....practice doesn't make perfect....perfect practice does (yeah yeah old cliche). I have finally sort of come to the conclusion there is no point in me even practicing to improve until I have some semblance of a grasp of my clueless matchups. Muddling along and shooting yourself in the foot during games doesn't help you improve. Working towards a concrete goal for a specific point in each game will help you. My problem....as I assume yours likely is...is not knowing what yoiu should be working towards. | ||
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bugabinga
Germany17 Posts
Its a dedicated group of players from gold to masters set on improving ^^. | ||
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Sianos
580 Posts
You have to improve step by step. The first thing is to have a gameplan, which contains the unit composition in the lategame, the unit composition in the midgame and the way you get there. You don´t need exact BOs for it, but you should thing in terms of tech. In which order do i get my unit composition to the midgame and in which order do i transition into my lategame composition. That´s the first step to do. This is really easy done, by just copying a Standard build from a programer. The next step is to improve your Macro and your Mechanics. Use hotkeys for your units and your production buildings and try to keep your money low -> no supply block -> no idle production facilities -> no overres. Then you look at the things you die to until reaching the lategame and try to find ways for scouting and adapting correctly. Alone with doing this things well, you can easily get into Diamond. That´s how i got there and i´m in a similar position as you. No RTS before SC2 release and i just play max 3-5 Games a day. Then it´s time to focus on engagements and multiprogned herrass/attacks. At the beginning i had like 30 apm, but i´m able to have 120 EAPM and this is just the profit from macroing your stuff. At the beginning you can´t do all these apm intesive things, so you have to focus on the basics and stay there until you can do this second nature. Your APM will also improve through this and you will be able to do additional things. GL HF in your SC2 tourney. | ||
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abefroman
70 Posts
On February 16 2012 05:21 bugabinga wrote: Check out the "sc2improve" channel on the EU server. Its a dedicated group of players from gold to masters set on improving ^^. Anyone know of anything similar to this on NA? | ||
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