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[H][D] Can 'anyone' be Masters? - Page 11

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Nuclease
Profile Joined August 2011
United States1049 Posts
February 16 2012 23:52 GMT
#201
You can always, always improve. Never doubt that. I don't have that attitude about many things, but SC2 for sure.
Zealots, not zee-lots. | Never forget, KTViolet, Go)Space. | You will never be as good as By.Flash, and your drops will never be as sick as MMA.
Skyro
Profile Joined May 2010
United States1823 Posts
February 16 2012 23:58 GMT
#202
I think I remember idra saying something to the affect of everybody could even reach a pro or near-pro level of sc2 if you have the dedication, but that only near the very very top do things like natural talent or whatever make a difference.
LaM
Profile Blog Joined September 2011
United States1321 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-02-17 00:52:20
February 17 2012 00:51 GMT
#203
This is cool, I for one am thrilled. But I'm kinda sad about how excited I am. C'mon Blizz. At the very least give us a reasonable paid option to change our name more frequently. Or let's be real, a name change every season, every 3 months, every something.. ?

edit/ This is not the right thread. lmao.
Anything is Possible
Average Joe
Profile Joined November 2011
21 Posts
February 17 2012 00:59 GMT
#204
When people mention APM are they referring to the in-game counter or the SCgears one?
terrantosaur
Profile Joined August 2011
42 Posts
February 17 2012 01:08 GMT
#205
One question I have prompted by some of the comments in reply to my questions and also my experience the last two nights in the Diamond league... can anyone comment on the following: how easy is it to stay in a division with a very mediocre win/loss record? I ask because (as I've already revealed) I have had to grind so hard to get promoted... all the way from Bronze to now Diamond in what, for most people who've replied, is an inordinate amount of time :-)). But in the last 48 hours since becoming Diamond I've played a lot of people who were Diamond last season and even one Masters player (who I beat, yeah!). Sure there have been some games where I have been OWNED. Like horribly, demoralisingly, sickeningly OWNED. But, in the round, I've held my own. I'm currently ranked 1 in this Diamond league and while I'm sure I will fall lower as the leagues 'settle' in Season 6 - the difference between where I was (in high Plat) and now seems quite marginal.

So this got me thinking about whether there could be some sort of anamoly in the league system. Say someone had a bit of experience when the game was first released and immediately got into the top league at that time but didn't really play much thereafter. Could they still be ranked Diamond or even Master now? It would be fascinating to find such a person and get them to start a new account and see whether they couls immediately got back to their current league and level - or whether they could detect a massively better standard in some of the lower leagues than they were expecting...

Other than the outliers in general the differences feel 'manageable' which I wasn't expecting.

Another comment: people talk about learning from your losses... well I can say that when you get absolutely OWNED it is all the adjectives above but I also learnt more from those games than so many others when much more marginal things cost me. So, for those of you in a similar position to me, I do think that finding some way to play against a couple of say Masters level players will probably accelerate your development.

Thanks too for all the PMs I've had offering me help. This site is just awesome and I'm pretty stunned that so many people have been kind enough to offer me help.


Simon
MXfive
Profile Joined January 2012
United Kingdom19 Posts
February 17 2012 02:03 GMT
#206
Stephano is probably the best example of natural talent, he plays around 4-5 hours a day, if that, and spends the rest of his time doing other things.
"FFE and die"
Chutoro
Profile Joined January 2011
New Zealand95 Posts
February 17 2012 03:15 GMT
#207
On February 16 2012 13:41 Belial88 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 16 2012 13:14 Chutoro wrote:
On February 16 2012 11:01 Belial88 wrote:
Any gamer can with any race. Anyone can if they play deathball Protoss (not a balance whine, i'm just stating that if you turtle a deathball, you need less skill to pull it off to get to masters, especially since lower level people can't pull off the macro or aggression to 'counter' it and low masters is low level, and mech isn't really viable in all of the 3 match-ups and not as hard to deal with as zerg, you might actually need skill to do it in tvz).

For the average person, yea. If you play 2,000 games (not even sure on the exact number, probably less, whatever) you will definitely be masters though, provided you are at least like 17 years old.

So here is my plan:...


Dude... your plan is horrible. You aren't getting it.

1. Yes, demuslim is a beast, but you are nowhere near his level, 99% of masters players are seriously like bronze to a diamond compared to him, and you are better off PLAYING.

In fact, when I was diamond, and first realized I 'could' hit masters, I made a vow to stop watching tournaments, stop watching streams, stop posting on TL, stop posting on any forum, stop watching VODs, stop watching day9. Suffice to say, i hit masters almost within a week.

You just have to PLAY. How much time have you spent on just in this thread alone? An hour already? That's easily 2 games. All the time you waste watching stuff, yea you may learn stuff, but you would've learned a LOT more playing. Not to mention, anyone below high masters is at a level of play where you'd just learn way more by playing the game, and learning it for yourself. Plus, you can't do what Demuslim does, he's 'above ladder', he could do some serious troll stuff and get away with it because he's that good. So maybe some of his play is trolling, maybe he does it but doesn't realize it's not viable against an MVP caliber opponent, maybe he does, but either way you are better off PLAYING.

2. You are way too low level to get coaching. All a coach will do is say "yea man just do this build ezpz get masters pay me $20" or "build probes, build pylons". Get a coach once you hit high masters. Or I mean go for it, it's your money, it's only a bit of time. But you really don't need a coach. You just need to know how to be critical of yourself, and understand you macro like total shit. Because unless you are high masters, it's true that you actually macro like total shit. Myself included (mid masters).

3. You want to play. Maybe join a chat channel and ask to play better people than you, but focus more on playing, not joining social groups.

4. You can do whatever builds you want. It's your macro that's a problem.

In short, you need to PLAY more. Get off the forums. Completely disassociate from every tournament, every vod, every pro, every stream. I strongly recommend, that if you want to hit masters, you should not watch any tournaments or anything or even visit reddit or TL (especially reddit).

Just get out there and play dude. Masters really isn't high level at all, and even if it was, you are just holding yourself back by not playing. I guarentee you, you play 2,000 games, you'll easily be masters.


I don't agree with this.

I watch pro streams and tournaments once in a while, but probably 95% of my SC2 time is spent laddering. I have a touch over 700 ladder wins lifetime in 1v1, which (if we assume 50% win rate) probably puts me at around 1450 games played.

I am in Platinum. I would like to say I'm high Platinum, but realistically I think low-mid is more accurate, since I usually struggle to stay consistently in the top 8 in my division. It may be that if I play another 550 games I'll be in Masters, but I very much doubt it. 550 games ago I was in Platinum, around the same level I am now.

Coincidentally(?) I am about the same age as the OP.

While I think all the encouragement the OP has received on this thread has been great, if anything I think posts like this just confirm the OP's point about skill levels. In my experience, reaching Masters is nowhere near as simple as just playing 2000 games. Belial88 says that it was that simple for him, and I have no reason to doubt him (plenty of others on this thread have expressed similar sentiments) so I conclude that his experience of learning SC2 and my experience have been quite different in some fundamental ways, and there are things that came naturally to him that don't to me.


There's no such thing as high or low Platinum, due to how the ranking system works. Only the 'top' rank is where points/ranking mean anything, since low level people can be stuck in Plat due to inaccurate MMR, or and 'high' people just being promoted.

I would also argue that if you played instead of watching pros and streams, you would be higher ranked.


That's my whole point - I hardly ever watch pros and streams. 95% of my SC2 time is just playing. I am a perfect case study.

It's not exactly a convincing argument when you are saying "Look how successful I am! I a pizza delivery driver!"


I don't think you are understanding me. I'm saying nothing of the kind. I am saying that I am unsuccessful because I'm only Platinum after 1500 games. (At least by TL standards, which are my standards as well or I wouldn't be here).

Also, I'm pretty sure everyone who's played 2,000 games and is somewhat matured (ie not 13 years old, no handicap) is masters. If the number is wrong, the number is wrong, but you play 10,000 games, you WILL be masters. Someone else can say more accurately what the number is that 99% of people hit masters once having played that many games, but you get my point, and it's not exactly that many games. I'd also hazard that, besides BW experience and such, like 90% of people hit masters in roughly the same number of games.


It is hard to get a source for this stat, but we could look at the number of players who have won at least 300 games in the most recent season for example, which SC2Ranks can tell us. I suspect most of these would have >2000 games total overall, certainly if they've been playing at the same rate for a while.

There were:

33 players worldwide in GM with >300 wins last season (http://www.sc2ranks.com/ranks/all/grandmaster/1/all/wins)
154 players worldwide in Masters with >300 wins last season (http://www.sc2ranks.com/ranks/all/master/1/all/wins/100)
123 players in Diamond with >300 wins (http://www.sc2ranks.com/ranks/all/diamond/1/all/wins/100)
125 players in Platinum with >300 wins (http://www.sc2ranks.com/ranks/all/platinum/1/all/wins/100)
136 players in Gold with >300 wins (http://www.sc2ranks.com/ranks/all/gold/1/all/wins/100)
150 players in Silver with >300 wins (http://www.sc2ranks.com/ranks/all/silver/1/all/wins/100)
783 players in Bronze with >300 wins (http://www.sc2ranks.com/ranks/all/bronze/1/all/wins/700)

I wouldn't put too much stock in the Bronze number as I suspect most of them are portrait farmers, but even leaving them out, that means that 26% of the players with >300 wins above Silver are Masters or higher. Granted that's a much bigger number than 2% (total Masters population) but it's way short of the 99% figure you are talking about. I think there is definite evidence that playing a lot of games tends to improve people's rating on average, but (in my opinion) there is also pretty clear evidence that many SC2 players 'cap out' at a particular rating no matter how many games they play. Maybe you don't happen to be among them, but they are still a pretty significant percentage of the overall population.

Granted this isn't a perfect data set, but it is consistent with my own experience - maybe every 2nd or 3rd opponent I get on ladder in Platinum has 700 to 1000 total league wins, meaning they aren't far off your 2000 games number. There are a lot more of us out there than you think, and your experience of how easy it is to reach Masters is not typical.

I also think that over 99% of the people who played BW ICCUP, are at least Masters. That just goes to show that Masters ain't no thing. I'm not saying BW pros, I'm just saying anyone who even played BW. I mean I was bronze at one point, zero RTS history.

Diamond, is definitely something that ANYONE can achieve, even non-gamers. If you are in Plat, that's just lack of games put under your belt. I'm not trying to be insulting, but play a good 1,000 games, you'll be diamond. You aren't far from it as it is anyways.


I already told you in my first post that I had played around 1450 ladder games in total, and I'm nowhere near Diamond.

By the way, I am not disputing the premise that anyone CAN reach Diamond or Masters (if I didn't believe that, I probably wouldn't still be playing). I just don't think that most do in practice, and (for most people) I don't think that "just play more games" is the answer.
DreamChaser
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
1649 Posts
February 17 2012 03:23 GMT
#208
Yes, just because you may not get there as fast as others doesn't mean you wont get their with dedication and tenacity. No matter how difficult anything (in life too) is as long as you really want it theres nothing stopping you but yourself.
Plays against every MU with nexus first.
Charon1979
Profile Joined October 2010
Austria317 Posts
February 17 2012 10:43 GMT
#209
I for my part was promoted into Gold at S1, got to Platinum S2 and stuck there till now where i got demoted to Gold again (dint play 2 seasons)
But i feel i cant improve any more. I used to play often (got my 1000 wins in S3) but was unable to improve.
I still die to 2 base all-ins, i still have problems scouting, i still habe problems attacking, hellion expand literally kills me and drops/small zealot warpins make me fall apart.
I see them, in theory i know how to handle it but i lack the reaction.
shivver
Profile Joined June 2011
United States232 Posts
February 17 2012 15:21 GMT
#210
I can tell you that the difference for me since obtaining masters is simply knowing what to do.. that's it and as simple as it sounds, that's really what is holding everyone back for the most part.

I practice with a grandmaster and have been since I was platinum and just having the knowledge of what to do and what not to do is really what it all came down too. It doesn't matter if you don't miss a single scv up to 70, and never get supply blocked etc. etc. if you're doing small things you don't realize that are giving away your position, you're still going to lose.

I would advise lessons from someone that is very good at explaining the game, finding that person is the hard part.
Poopi
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
France12803 Posts
February 17 2012 15:37 GMT
#211
On February 17 2012 07:39 Kaitokid wrote:
3h a day is actually a lot. Best use of those 3h would probably be watching like 1 Terran replay/stream game of a player whos good and you like and then spam laddergames without interruption. Watch replays of yourself losing when you don't know what your opponent did, but in my opinion the statistics after the game already tell a lot...

Achieving average masters level is extremely easy and I am certain anyone can do it even without a lot of effort.

Yeah I always wondered why everyone wants to watch replays of lost games on ladder (Of course it would be necessary to watch it for pro in tourney play) despite the fact that graph + what you remember of the game and you know when and why you got behind :x
WriterMaru
Blazinghand *
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
United States25551 Posts
February 17 2012 15:41 GMT
#212
On February 18 2012 00:37 Poopi wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 17 2012 07:39 Kaitokid wrote:
3h a day is actually a lot. Best use of those 3h would probably be watching like 1 Terran replay/stream game of a player whos good and you like and then spam laddergames without interruption. Watch replays of yourself losing when you don't know what your opponent did, but in my opinion the statistics after the game already tell a lot...

Achieving average masters level is extremely easy and I am certain anyone can do it even without a lot of effort.

Yeah I always wondered why everyone wants to watch replays of lost games on ladder (Of course it would be necessary to watch it for pro in tourney play) despite the fact that graph + what you remember of the game and you know when and why you got behind :x


Watching a replay is a good tool imo if you don't know why you lost. Like, if you obviously didn't macro well or move-commanded your army then I could see how it's not necessary, but if you don't know how you lost, easiest way to find out and not make that mistake in the future is to go through the replay.
When you stare into the iCCup, the iCCup stares back.
TL+ Member
Heweree
Profile Joined July 2011
United Kingdom497 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-02-17 17:29:27
February 17 2012 17:28 GMT
#213
Hummm, I think it has a lot to do with your age and the lack of experience in RTS.

I was pretty good at wc3, I achieved Master in less than 150 wins in 1v1. Nowadays I can play only one month out of 4, and the month I can play I play like 2-3 games average. I'm still mid master level.

The experience in RTS allowed me to have some automatisms, and my relative young age makes it easier to "muscle" memorize.

It's like any sport, starting it late makes it way harder. But if you achieve master at 38 yo, gratz !

And even though the general TL mindset is : there is no such thing like talent, only hardwork. I don't believe it at all, they are things you are more or less gifted for. For example I can't fuckin draw, even when I was little. I'm a really bad bad musician as well. But for sc2, most of the guys at my level have something like 3-4 times my number games. And I don't watch all my replays like a mad man. Actually I just watch the replays when I win, to congratulate myself xD
Clazziquai10
Profile Blog Joined August 2011
Singapore1949 Posts
February 17 2012 17:47 GMT
#214
Lol I have 1.5k wins and abt 3k games played and im diamond
Forbidden17
Profile Joined December 2011
666 Posts
February 17 2012 20:21 GMT
#215
On February 18 2012 02:47 Clazziquai10 wrote:
Lol I have 1.5k wins and abt 3k games played and im diamond

which probably means you're making the same mistakes every game without knowing. Ask someone better than you to watch your replays! Or get a coach etc.
perser84
Profile Joined October 2010
Germany399 Posts
February 17 2012 20:31 GMT
#216
i was diamond last season and got masters before the season ended

all you need are for each match up
a good built
and you need to execute properly

my advice is pratice partners because they have intel of their races that you dont
so you will know what for example zerg or terran is afraid of what you should exploit and what not
your problem is you do something wrong

most of the time like macro or not execute your built well
watch stream from good players and learn from them
and i dont mean super pros gm/master level is enough
Drorctopus
Profile Joined October 2010
Netherlands135 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-02-17 20:35:09
February 17 2012 20:34 GMT
#217
I was diamond after about 400-450 games played, and probably 350 of those were with my main race which is zerg. I have no previous RTS experience.
Westman
Profile Joined March 2011
Sweden27 Posts
February 17 2012 20:52 GMT
#218
I used to play Age of Empires, but only at my friends place and we just thought that monks were cool and saw what they could do. That's basically my experience in RTS prior to Sc2. I had not even heard of brood war before starcraft 2 came out. I decided in march, april 2011 to start playing, and through my placement matches I was selected into Gold.

After some time, I was demoted to Silver. That's when I started watching streams/tournaments/shows about sc2.
I have been steadily improving since and just made it into Master this season. I play an average of 7games/week but it depends on school and such.


To answer your question: If you want to improve, and take it serious, there should be no problem of you making it into master!
Belial88
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States5217 Posts
February 17 2012 22:15 GMT
#219
On February 18 2012 02:47 Clazziquai10 wrote:
Lol I have 1.5k wins and abt 3k games played and im diamond


What area? How old are you? Do you get matched against masters at all?

I'm sure you'll be masters when you hit 2k.
How to build a $500 i7-3770K Ultimate Computer:http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?topic_id=392709 ******** 100% Safe Razorless Delid Method! http://www.overclock.net/t/1376206/how-to-delid-your-ivy-bridge-cpu-with-out-a-razor-blade/0_100
joyeaux
Profile Joined May 2005
United States169 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-02-18 04:14:16
February 18 2012 04:14 GMT
#220
On February 16 2012 03:52 SoulWager wrote:
If you have two functioning limbs, one functioning eye, and a functioning brain, you can be masters at sc2.


You forgot "practice"
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