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[H][D] Can 'anyone' be Masters?

Forum Index > StarCraft 2 Strategy
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terrantosaur
Profile Joined August 2011
42 Posts
February 15 2012 18:34 GMT
#1
I have questions about what is realistically achievable in terms of improving at SC2.

I’d never played RTS games before SC2 was released so came to the game as a genuine noob. I am 38 years old and have a full time job + other responsibilities that mean I cannot play nearly as much SC2 as I’d like. I work in finance (boo) and I have never actually met anyone who plays SC2! This means that I can’t swap war stories/strategies with mates. Essentially I have to improve in isolation (and with the invaluable help of TL). I do have a track record of being ok at things when I can devote time to them. I have represented my country in two different sports (neither of which involved a computer alas..) so I am not without coordination (although I'd like more please :-)). My experience with other pursuits suggests that, with enough application and a little bit of ability, you can achieve your goals. However my experience in terms of ‘rate of improvement’ with SC2 suggests that my view may be wrong.

I’d like to get really good at SC2 (by this I mean I’d like to be competitive at Masters level) BUT, although I do try to devote all my spare time to it, I just don’t have time to spend more than say 3 hours a day (some of which will be spent watching pro games as opposed to playing). Here is my history:

Season 1 – started in bronze, got to Rank 1 Silver.

Seasons 2&3 – high Gold.

Seasons 4&5 – high Platinum.

I am now ranked 1 in my Platinum league. I play Terran on the EU server and my APM is maybe 80 average (but is very variable – there are moments when it hits 300 and moments when it is 0). I read the forums: many people just seem to ‘be’ Masters. Ie they just play the game and instantly achieve this sort of level (don’t ask me how). Almost all of the top players in the world are under 30 – let alone nearer 40 – so perhaps age also acts as a barrier to improvement, especially if you come to RTS gaming ‘late’.

So to my questions:

1) Does this (slow) rate of progress indicate that I have roughly ‘found my level’? Ie I will be high Plat/low Diamond maybe but not much better.

2) Will I be naturally capped by my low APM? Is APM like IQ ie it doesn’t really change that much over time. Or can anyone provide examples of how there APM has improved markedly?

3) Are there people in the Masters league who don’t have to practise that much to be that good? Ie is there such a thing as ‘natural talent’ in SC2 or is it basically application?

My practice at the moment consists of laddering and watching professional games. I do not have partners to play with and I’ve never had coaching. I am sure it is fair to say that both would benefit me but can anyone say they’ve improved dramatically as a result of either/both? If so, are these people who actually have a sh*tload more time to play than I do? Ie might I be better just carrying on laddering until I win the lottery and can play full time?

I wasn't sure a 'replay' was necessary for these sorts of questions. Happy to provide if necessary.

Simon
Josh_rakoons
Profile Joined December 2011
United Kingdom1158 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-02-15 19:22:46
February 15 2012 18:40 GMT
#2
I was bronze about 3 months ago, now masters, i could and can only play every 2 weeks on the weekends, if you put in the work you can do it.
I'd recommend coaching but i wouldnt go with anyone super expensive, such as incontrol... or destiny, go with people like apollo.


*Also, no previous RTS experience, just fps and MMORPG.
TrueZerG
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
43 Posts
February 15 2012 18:43 GMT
#3
Apm is just how fast you do things, and obviously the more you do them the faster you get. When i first played broodwar i had a grand whole 20-30 apm, but now I play on sc2 with 80-100 apm w/o even really trying, the more you practice the better you get. IMO anyone can get to masters (not me im high d ) but you just need to practice a LOT and LADDER, its simply a matter of time and commitment.

Im sure skill does take into account only @ super high levels (koreans :D )
Savior: Quite the Irony there <3 all the same
statikg
Profile Joined May 2010
Canada930 Posts
February 15 2012 18:45 GMT
#4
On February 16 2012 03:34 terrantosaur wrote:

1) Does this (slow) rate of progress indicate that I have roughly ‘found my level’? Ie I will be high Plat/low Diamond maybe but not much better.

2) Will I be naturally capped by my low APM? Is APM like IQ ie it doesn’t really change that much over time. Or can anyone provide examples of how there APM has improved markedly?

3) Are there people in the Masters league who don’t have to practise that much to be that good? Ie is there such a thing as ‘natural talent’ in SC2 or is it basically application?



Alot of people have "natural talent" in SC2, but i think that alot of natural talent is actually code for alot of video game and often rts game experience but of course some is natural. Most people who went straight to masters, myself included, had played alot of other games and some at least casual rts experience.

Your APM can improve by using hotkeys, more control groups and making sure to use the keyboard whenever the mouse is not completely necessary. This will also help your skill level improve.

I truely believe that ANYONE can be masters, you just have to look at your game and spot your errors, putting replays on TL can help with that. Your macro is probably your major problem, but other things can be helped with as well. Putting in a couple hours a day is more then enough to become excellent. Memorizing your build orders, knowing how to react to all situations and ACTIVELY TRYING TO IMPROVE your macro and other skills is what it takes.
Drmooose
Profile Joined March 2011
United States390 Posts
February 15 2012 18:48 GMT
#5
I started Gold and just got to masters. I play a game or two a night. If you're Zerg hit me up and I can give you some tips. I think a lot of it relies on how much you can learn from your mistakes. Hearing what you need to do is one thing. Watch your replays and see if you can pick out where you went wrong. From there make sure you don't make that key mistake next game. Keep building like this.
I have a question...
Demnogonis
Profile Joined December 2011
Finland80 Posts
February 15 2012 18:50 GMT
#6
My opinion is that some people are indeed very good at strategy games in general, but many of those people don't excel at SC2 because of the execution part of the game. I think you can get to masters by simply practicing so much your execution is good enough and you know the builds, but without ability to think quickly and strategically you're never going to excel.
This, I command!
Hoon
Profile Joined December 2010
Brazil891 Posts
February 15 2012 18:50 GMT
#7
The reason why you got yourself stuck in this particular league / league position is because you hit a 'wall'.
I think that it would be the perfect time to get some coaching lessons if you have the money for it, or if you don't, get into some deep analyses of your replays.

1. I don't think people can get 'stuck' and never move on. With enough dedication and going to the right direction, you will be able to get past the 'skill wall'.
2. APM can be improved by playing faster and faster, just like how it was mentioned on SotG. Get used to playing faster. You will make a lot of stupid mistakes in the beginning, but you will eventually get used to the speed.
Also, there are pro players with low APM, so it's not like high APM is a requirement for higher leagues.
3. There is natural talent, but I believe that most of the Master's players are there because they play a lot. See, for example, Deezer. He is a bad player, but he plays so much that he can grind up to high Masters.

A good tip for you would be to watch some of your replays and find a specific mistake you are doing. Work on it until you rarely do it again and you will notice that you have improved.
It might take some time, but that's the best way to improve without the help of others.
SEn Fanclub: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=170834
SoulWager
Profile Joined August 2010
United States464 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-02-15 18:52:23
February 15 2012 18:52 GMT
#8
If you have two functioning limbs, one functioning eye, and a functioning brain, you can be masters at sc2.

User was warned for this post
Thraundil
Profile Joined August 2010
Denmark278 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-02-15 18:54:57
February 15 2012 18:53 GMT
#9
Hey mate.
Good to see "old" people who are into eSports! :D

To answer your questions as you ask them.

1) Not nessecarily - although only time will tell. The fact you have progress means you are not yet at your cap for abilities. I started in bronze when I first started the game but finished the season in diamond top8 - although admittedly, I nolifed alot those months. But since then I have steadily climbed both in ranks, and my general understanding and adaptability within games. Only when you feel you cannot improve beyond your current level, will that be true. So keep at it.

2) Not in the sligthest! My own apm is 80 at average - and I finished season 5 in top 8 masters in my division (although it was a baddie division! So take it with a grain of salt
APM is in fact a terrible way to measure overall skill. Like you said, your APM can spike to 300 - I assume this is in combat situations. As long as you can do that, I mean theres absolutely no reason that you shouldnt be able to macro just fine with as little as 20 or 30 apm during the steady phases of the game. Some like to keep their hands going by spamming clicks, ut if it works for you then thats super.
One example that I feel has improved my mouse precision: Micro those workers! Micro them to close mineral fields. Make it a habit to select workers with clicks rather than boxing. Make sure every close mineral patch is mined by two workers allways in the beginning minutes - its not a super huge deal, moneywise, but its fun, keeps your hand warm and traines precision clicks, since you obviously want to select the correct worker!

3) Well. Define "that much". Some just have a "flair" for computer games, mostly due to the fact that they play them. A lot. i achieved master league in season 2 (although to be fair I also got my 1k wins achievement as zerg in mid S2...), and before SCII I hadnt really played RTS much, either. What I did have going for me though was a lot of time at my hands in evenings and weekends to really get alot of practise in, and watch alot of pro games. Just watching how pros do stuff expands your understanding of the game, without nessecarily needing to copy their every move.

Even though I am a zerg player, I could look at some of your playstyles some time if you want. I may not have a solid grip on actually playing the other two races, but what I do have is understanding of the races. Would be happy to help out some time.

Edit: But obviously, not "everyone" can become masters. There is a set percentage of all active accounts for each league. So theres a hard cap on the numbers :p
Hivemind! Just like IRL...
Proof.
Profile Joined August 2011
535 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-02-15 18:58:57
February 15 2012 18:55 GMT
#10
1. From my personal experience with helping out my friends, the main problem seems to be that they don't know what it is exactly that they're doing wrong. They don't know what to look for in replays. This is why it always helps to ask someone else (preferably a league or two higher than yourself) to ask for their perspective on your play. Edit: I realize I didn't adequately answer your question...I guess my answer is that if you know what it is you're doing wrong and you work on it bit by bit, it SHOULD rank you up eventually, given enough time. There's no limit (maybe not until high masters, since the game just gets really technical at that point) to how much you can improve.

2. APM doesn't correlate to skill. It can be low and you can still be in masters. This isn't something you should worry about. 80 seems like a good enough number.

3. I'm sure prior experience with other RTS's help somewhat. Or there are just those people who are naturally good at picking up things right off the bat. Or there are people who work at the game nonstop and know what to improve on and eventually get better. How others easily achieve things should have no bearing on how you personally achieve things (it's not like that knowledge is going to help you get any better. More likely, it'll make you feel shitty).

My advice since your time is so limited: rather than watching professional games (I assume this to mean tournaments like GSL, MLG, etc.), I'd watch streams. They're much more personal and you get to actually see things from a pro player's point of view. You get to see how fast they react to certain things and why they make the actions they make. Some players take the time to analyze their games after a particularly good one.
He who has a why to live can bear almost any how
xTrim
Profile Joined April 2011
472 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-02-15 18:56:08
February 15 2012 18:55 GMT
#11
On February 16 2012 03:45 statikg wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 16 2012 03:34 terrantosaur wrote:

1) Does this (slow) rate of progress indicate that I have roughly ‘found my level’? Ie I will be high Plat/low Diamond maybe but not much better.

2) Will I be naturally capped by my low APM? Is APM like IQ ie it doesn’t really change that much over time. Or can anyone provide examples of how there APM has improved markedly?

3) Are there people in the Masters league who don’t have to practise that much to be that good? Ie is there such a thing as ‘natural talent’ in SC2 or is it basically application?



Alot of people have "natural talent" in SC2, but i think that alot of natural talent is actually code for alot of video game and often rts game experience but of course some is natural. Most people who went straight to masters, myself included, had played alot of other games and some at least casual rts experience.

Your APM can improve by using hotkeys, more control groups and making sure to use the keyboard whenever the mouse is not completely necessary. This will also help your skill level improve.

I truely believe that ANYONE can be masters, you just have to look at your game and spot your errors, putting replays on TL can help with that. Your macro is probably your major problem, but other things can be helped with as well. Putting in a couple hours a day is more then enough to become excellent. Memorizing your build orders, knowing how to react to all situations and ACTIVELY TRYING TO IMPROVE your macro and other skills is what it takes.


right on the spot...

also, about your APM issue, as mentioned, once you actually memorize lots of stuff, know hte game pretty well and never forget the basics you should have a high apm.. once i got things going i had an APM of 110 on average... and thats what it is since then
Big J
Profile Joined March 2011
Austria16289 Posts
February 15 2012 18:56 GMT
#12
I played since the beta and was pretty much always platin and diamond, as those were still the highest leagues.
it took me half a season to get into masters, when it was introduced.

however, everytime I'm not able to play for a longer periode of time, i experience that i need to work my way back to "master level".
i guess if I had not been playing for that long, i would definatly not be masters.

in conclusion: i think masters is a matter of training. platin league right now is probably as good as masters was when it was introduced. so i guess you are doing fine!
CrtBalorda
Profile Joined December 2011
Slovenia704 Posts
February 15 2012 18:59 GMT
#13
1. Anyone can be masters
2. Masters still sucks
4th August 2012...Never forget.....
Randomaccount#77123
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States5003 Posts
February 15 2012 18:59 GMT
#14
--- Nuked ---
SheaR619
Profile Joined October 2010
United States2399 Posts
February 15 2012 18:59 GMT
#15
Started out Bronze in beta and I think after beta I was already low diamond/high plat (since there was no master, it would probably be low masters back then). After release, I just polish my skill and keep playing. Then when master lvl came out I got it on the first game of that day, wasnt much of surprise since I expected to get it anyways. So ugh, I guess it really depend on the person really
I may not be the best, but i will be some day...
Berailfor
Profile Joined January 2012
441 Posts
February 15 2012 19:01 GMT
#16
I wouldn't necessarily recommend coaching. Master league isn't extremely difficult to obtain. Just master your mechanics and that alone should get your there or pretty close. Know what builds are viable against what races, and if you execute those strategies properly then you will make it to master league fairly easily. You just gotta keep winning that's all.
Proof.
Profile Joined August 2011
535 Posts
February 15 2012 19:07 GMT
#17
On February 16 2012 04:01 Berailfor wrote:
I wouldn't necessarily recommend coaching. Master league isn't extremely difficult to obtain. Just master your mechanics and that alone should get your there or pretty close. Know what builds are viable against what races, and if you execute those strategies properly then you will make it to master league fairly easily. You just gotta keep winning that's all.

All true. But also easily said than done.
He who has a why to live can bear almost any how
1nMack1
Profile Joined December 2010
Canada88 Posts
February 15 2012 19:22 GMT
#18
My friend, age 23 went from bronze->platinum over a weekend and apm of maybe 35 jump to about 85 in the process. From bronze to platinum we worked on macro in a fairly simple manner. Every game, he had the same checklist of things to accomplish and repeatedly tried to do them as quickly as he could. In the process he won games.

Since the build is simple and never changes and isn't especially vulnerable to crazy rushes as you will have many marines + a wall, you will have ample opportunity to practice the mechanics in the checklist below that will allow you to increase your apm.

His checklist would go something like this,

1. make scv, and split workers as quickly as possible
a. hotkey command centre to 4
2. change the rally point for the cc so workers go to a new patch
3. rally worker at 9/11 food to depot location and build depot, then a barracks on 12
b. hotkey the barracks to 3, every time you make a rax add it to the group and reset the rally point.
4. scout, when the rax starts building using shift rally points and the minimap without looking. this can be tricky at first
b. hotkey scv to 1, don't let him die. watch him go around the minimap and hit "11" when he gets to a base
5. get ready to finish wall, with next 100 minerals, this is before a marine or an orbital
6. orbital-> marine
7. slam out a rax every time you have 150 minerals and make 4 total, 5-6 if you want to all in
8. do not supply block, constantly produce marines and scvs
9. @16 marines go attack them, make a command centre at your natural location

You will a. kill them, this happens pretty often. Most zergs will die, terrans without a bunker will die, protoss who don't forcefield well will likely die aswell.

Transition: Continue making bio, get double gas, 2 tech labs, stim/combat/conccussive and medivacs. Make more rax, expand, drop everywhere using shift ques to rally your medivac. Just hold shift right click the path and the drop hotkey is D. Hotkey the medivac to group 2.
-Strife-
Profile Joined February 2012
United States8 Posts
February 15 2012 19:27 GMT
#19
I feel the same as you. I was brand new to the competitive RTS scene and had never played starcraft before. I worked my way from bronze to #1 plat in about a month of playing (granted I was playing alot) then I joined the ARMY (epic fail) and went over a year without playing. Im trying to get back into it buts its alot harder to improve than it used to be.My mechanics are fucked and i just dont have the time to get them polished.

I really like the game but it seems like im just outclassed from all the time most people have had to practice (it would blow your mind how many people in gold-plat league have the 1000 win portrait) I think it would help alot to have a friend to practice with because it takes away the drive to just win and helps to focus on improving but even then im out in the field half the time now so i dont know. Its very frustrating lol.
Xeanrot
Profile Joined December 2010
Finland138 Posts
February 15 2012 19:33 GMT
#20
If u have time to play at least 10 games in day, you are going to get masters eventually. Only playing the game helps you to get better. Also good mindset is a step forward. Blaming yourself and NOT the game helps you to improve.
DarkPlasmaBall
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
United States44257 Posts
February 15 2012 19:37 GMT
#21
On February 16 2012 03:59 Barrin wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 16 2012 03:52 SoulWager wrote:
If you have two functioning limbs, one functioning eye, and a functioning brain, you can be masters at sc2.

with some time and dedication


Agreed. You just need to know how to practice and spend your time wisely.
"There is nothing more satisfying than looking at a crowd of people and helping them get what I love." ~Day[9] Daily #100
Jacen88
Profile Joined October 2010
74 Posts
February 15 2012 19:37 GMT
#22
Let's see if i can give advice here.

First of all i think its nice to see SC2's demographic is bigger than 15-25 year olds. And I dont think age is a limiting factor here. Most players being of younger age is mostly due to pc games being most popular in this demographic and computer usage overall might be more 'natural' to them.

But lets try to answer your questions:
1.: (improving)
I believe there's always room to improve. No matter if its sports, school, computer games or any other skill you can possibly think of.
Also certain is that there will be times when improving to the next level is a lot harder and takes way more time. This is, for expample, observed in every sport aswell. Learning curves are never linear. There will be times you're improving very fast and times that you're sitting at a plateau you have to break.
E.g. changing the way you practice is an approach often used in sports to improve further.
Same holds true for SC, im sure everyone is able to get to master league or even further, the time it takes people may differ vastly.

While being able to click fast and accurate is indeed important, even more important is remembering things in the game.
Good macro isnt about how fast you can click 'a' to make marines or something. Its about remembering to always make marines, supply depots etc.


2.: (apm)
80 average apm is alot, mine is about the same lvl, spiking in micro intensive engagements to ~200+, just as you described yours (I'm playing mid masters in 1v1 and top100 global in 2v2).
Most players having higher apm will be spamming alot. If you're not spamming, but using it intelligent, you dont need more than 80avg apm to reach masters.

3.: (talent)
Of course theres people that will have an easier time getting good at this game than others. Just as in every sport or subject you can think of.
I, myself have always been in the highest league avalaible since beta. And I didnt really practice hard for it or anything. Im barely playing ~15games per season in 1v1 (cause i enjoy 2v2 much more), yet have no problem staying in masters league.
Then again i have come to sc2 with quite a lot of rts experience (played alot of wc3, and basically any rts game a bit).
So i dont know if you can say thats cause of natural talent.
Imo its more about understanding the very principles of any rts game (such as not floating money, being accurate on your timings, educated guessing what your opponent is up to etc)


Let's come back to your post again. You said you want to be 'competitive at masters level'.
If this just means playing in masters league to you, id say yes, thats certainly possible for you.
If that means competing at high masters, playing grandmasters and maybe participating in bigger tournaments, then no. This is the lvl you're time to practice really starts to be the dominating factor, dont think u can accomplish that with a full time job, and i dont think you should try, its just not worth it.

As a last point, some advice about improving:
Imo this comes down to just two important aspects you have to look at:

1. Understanding the game
This includes knowing the popular/possible strategies in the match-ups relevant to you, understanding the basic concepts of ressource management (macro), build orders, things like when to engage and how to react to your opponent.

2. Your ability to actually play the game
Basic things like knowing all your hotkeys, executing build orders, your micro abilities, mouse speed and accuracy, apm.

Basically, 1 is knowing what to do and 2 is how good you are at actually doing it.

For precise help on your gameplay this is the right place to ask.
Just make a Helpthread with some replays and theres plenty of competent players here willing to help you improve.

Hope it helps and didn't get too long to read at all :p
best regards, jacen
-VoidRay-
Profile Joined December 2011
57 Posts
February 15 2012 19:41 GMT
#23
I placed gold in season one and got to diamond by the end of it. I found that the thing that helped me THE MOST was finding a community of competitive and non competitive gamers to talk about the game with. Just like you, all my friends bought the game but very quickly quit because they sucked and found WOW way more fun. Thus, I was alone grinding out game by game with no one to talk to. I eventually found clan RH (Relentless Heroes) which literally saved my SC2 career. There are currently 500+ members and so many people willing to help. I am now a very experienced high masters player and I couldn't of gotten there without the help of a community and people willing to help. As far as coaching, I do believe coaching helps quite a bit especially people who are stuck in a rut and can't seam to be able to win anymore. (no matter what league) Coaches can help point out things that you don't see and get you out of that rut and back on your winning streak. I believe as far as natural talent, yes, some people are simply better at the beginning. I think with the time you play you can get to where you want. Peace and GL
Sign up at www.TangStarcraft.com for free strategy articles, stream lessons, and tutorial videos. PM me for coaching info!
citi.zen
Profile Joined April 2009
2509 Posts
February 15 2012 19:43 GMT
#24
Try to get your company in the AHGL. You'd be surprised to discover other people play sc2 but don't much discuss it.
Aut viam inveniam, aut faciam.
Jono7272
Profile Joined November 2010
United Kingdom6330 Posts
February 15 2012 19:43 GMT
#25
As soon as I started playing properly I went from Gold to Masters in a few months, pretty sure anyone could do it with enough time and dedication really.
Innovation | Flash | Mvp | Byun | TY
SnuggleZhenya
Profile Joined July 2010
596 Posts
February 15 2012 19:44 GMT
#26
So, TL is an elite community, I understand that, but masters league is STILL the top 2% of players in your region. Don't trivialize how difficult it is to be in the top 2% of pretty much anything. Yes, that doesn't make you a pro gamer, it doesn't mean you're "good" in the way the term is used around these forums, but it does mean you've achieved something most people *won't*, even people who are legitimately trying. So can "anyone" in the strictest sense - probably in the right circumstances, but don't trivialize the circumstances needed to actually make it happen.
You'll never get better being an angry nerd sitting alone in your room.
Dariusz
Profile Joined May 2011
Poland657 Posts
February 15 2012 19:46 GMT
#27
I'd argue that anyone who is healthy can get to GM league. It's about the quality and quantity of your practice and being consistent.

Try to approach this like you would approach any problem in your work. Ask - what is the most efficient way to solve it - then do it. You have ok APM and you need experience and practice. Take something from every game you play.

Also, your current APM is not an indicator of how fast you can play, because it comes from how fast you can think and multitask, not how fast you can move your fingers.
sexyandiknowit
Profile Joined February 2012
United States18 Posts
February 15 2012 19:50 GMT
#28
Hi, I am a high Master Protoss player (1100+ points season 5). I bought SC2 a month after it came out and immediately rose to diamond within the first two weeks (at that time, diamond was the highest league possible) after about 30 games. Since then, I have always been ranked near the top of the ladder. I am 18 years old and I played brood war since I was very, very young (maybe 6 or so). I am also Korean-American.

I don't ladder much at all - I play maybe 2-4 games a week, and yet I maintain my high master ladder rank.


1) Does this (slow) rate of progress indicate that I have roughly ‘found my level’? Ie I will be high Plat/low Diamond maybe but not much better.


I can't speak for everyone since I am not 40+ years old myself, but I think that "old" age will only present a minor - if not insignificant - disadvantage. At your age, you are still bright and physically and mentally capable. Don't be deterred if you feel like you aren't progressing. I think that a lot of people are turned off of sc2 because they feel like they aren't getting anywhere. You are always improving, even if you don' know it. If you want to improve faster, you can try to find better ways and be more proactive about it (i.e. learning new builds, watching pro streams, looking at replays). I don't believe that there is a "skill cap" for certain people.

2) Will I be naturally capped by my low APM? Is APM like IQ ie it doesn’t really change that much over time. Or can anyone provide examples of how there APM has improved markedly?


Although the new apm system is strange to me (i prefer the old apm, which is apparently coming back in patch 1.4.3), 80 apm is extremely high by current standards. When I obs games between GM and high master players, their apm usually averages around 50-60. I dont know why you think 80 apm is low, as this probably translates to around 150-250 apm in the old apm. A slow apm cap will only hinder you at the highest levels of play. There are many examples of (relatively) excellent players that have very low apm (such as Lobber or iNcontroL) and even top tier pros like Goody and Idra have very, very low apm.

3) Are there people in the Masters league who don’t have to practise that much to be that good? Ie is there such a thing as ‘natural talent’ in SC2 or is it basically application?


There is definitely "natural talent". I think that some players are simply better suited for RTS games as opposed to FPS games (I'm terrible at most FPS or any other types of games). As with all things in life though, natural talent can't always beat dedicated practice. A combination of both is the best way to go, but you dont necessarily need both in order to be a very high level player.

My practice at the moment consists of laddering and watching professional games. I do not have partners to play with and I’ve never had coaching. I am sure it is fair to say that both would benefit me but can anyone say they’ve improved dramatically as a result of either/both? If so, are these people who actually have a sh*tload more time to play than I do? Ie might I be better just carrying on laddering until I win the lottery and can play full time?


You dont need partners or coaching in order to get better, although a good social atmosphere on SC2 might give you more incentive to play. I would recommend finding a few practice partners (just look up some popular channels - if you're on the NA servers, try TangStarcraft, xo, cvg, NMx, reddit) and playing with them. Coaching is imo a waste of money - anyone with the proper dedication can achieve high GM on their own. To get to top tier pro level, you WOULD probably need coaching, but since most top level pros dont coach or charge exorbitant ($300+ per hr) fees, its not really worth it.
High Master Protoss
VTFlow
Profile Joined November 2010
United States84 Posts
February 15 2012 19:50 GMT
#29
1) u wont be stuck forever it just takes a long time
2) apm really isn't significant whatsoever as long as you are multitasking and macroing / microing as needed
3) yes talent makes a huge difference but only at pro levels so anyone can get to masters or gm just takes time/effort
IMoperator
Profile Joined October 2011
4476 Posts
February 15 2012 19:52 GMT
#30
Yes, I went from bronze to masters with no rts experience, so I'm pretty sure anyone can.
DaPyro
Profile Blog Joined January 2012
Serbia131 Posts
February 15 2012 19:53 GMT
#31
I started Beta as bronze, I got into masters when the league came out. I still maintain masters while only playing 10 games a week for the past 3 months. I played around 5-6 hours a day from bronze to masters and was just playing solely to get better.
Drone so hard motherfuckers wanna fine me. Whats 50k minerals to a nigga like me? can you please remind me
roymarthyup
Profile Joined April 2010
1442 Posts
February 15 2012 19:54 GMT
#32
i believe walls are real, and if you truly hit it theres one way to know for sure

i believe you just need to now fight against masters players and learn from losing to them

if after 20 games against a master player, you cannot win a single time within that 20, then probably you have hit your wall and cannot improve. otherwise you should have learned a bit from it and been able to take off 1 game, or have a very close game


i believe any masters player will suffice for this, so find one of the lowly masters that are offering coaching for 10 dollars an hour and just use that to practice plenty games against them

or, possibly pay a masters 50 dollars to get your accounts MMR to high masters which should give you about 20 games until your MMR lowers and you face plats again
Mr_Kyo
Profile Joined November 2010
United States269 Posts
February 15 2012 19:55 GMT
#33
I think natural talent is a pretty big deal in SC2, so I don't think you'll ever be grand masters; however, masters to quite achievable. While masters is achievable by anyone, the gap between platinum and diamond is large and the gap between diamond and masters is even larger. You can do it, but you have to improve faster than the rate at which other players do.
weikor
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
Austria580 Posts
February 15 2012 19:55 GMT
#34
improovement from bronze to plat also goes really quickly, i remember starting starcraft and doing bronze to plat in a weekend, then a week from plat to diamond (intense playing) and from diamond to masters it took me longer, from low masters to higher masters it takes months of practice for most people.
TyrionSC2
Profile Joined November 2010
United States411 Posts
February 15 2012 19:57 GMT
#35

1) Does this (slow) rate of progress indicate that I have roughly ‘found my level’? Ie I will be high Plat/low Diamond maybe but not much better.


Nah. Keep playing, watch replays, watch vods. Nobody has a constant improve rate, there will be spikes and lulls all the time.


2) Will I be naturally capped by my low APM? Is APM like IQ ie it doesn’t really change that much over time. Or can anyone provide examples of how there APM has improved markedly?


APM will improve as you play more, and get better hotkey setups.
It takes time, but it definitely improves as you play.
I believe I started at 60-70 apm, then I hit diamond and started to get about 140 apm.
In masters you don't even need more than 70 or 80 apm as long as your actions are good actions.




3) Are there people in the Masters league who don’t have to practise that much to be that good? Ie is there such a thing as ‘natural talent’ in SC2 or is it basically application?


Being in master league does not necessarily mean that you practice all the time.
It certainly helps, but liquidret for example only plays 3 hours per day.



My practice at the moment consists of laddering and watching professional games. I do not have partners to play with and I’ve never had coaching. I am sure it is fair to say that both would benefit me but can anyone say they’ve improved dramatically as a result of either/both? If so, are these people who actually have a sh*tload more time to play than I do? Ie might I be better just carrying on laddering until I win the lottery and can play full time?


I've used coaching once before, the coach taught me how to analyze replays at a professional level.
Most people don't understand what to look for when they watch replays, so if you focus on learning how to watch replays you can definitely learn a ton from lessons. They can also point out some things, such as constantly being active with units. After my lesson I was directed to some replays, and my worst matchup (zvz) went from like 30% win rate to 14-2 in masters the very next day. So I'd say lessons are definitely worth it if you really want to improve.
marcelluspye
Profile Joined August 2011
United States155 Posts
February 15 2012 20:15 GMT
#36
On February 16 2012 03:34 terrantosaur wrote:
I have questions about what is realistically achievable in terms of improving at SC2.

I’d never played RTS games before SC2 was released so came to the game as a genuine noob. I am 38 years old and have a full time job + other responsibilities that mean I cannot play nearly as much SC2 as I’d like. I work in finance (boo) and I have never actually met anyone who plays SC2! This means that I can’t swap war stories/strategies with mates. Essentially I have to improve in isolation (and with the invaluable help of TL). I do have a track record of being ok at things when I can devote time to them. I have represented my country in two different sports (neither of which involved a computer alas..) so I am not without coordination (although I'd like more please :-)). My experience with other pursuits suggests that, with enough application and a little bit of ability, you can achieve your goals. However my experience in terms of ‘rate of improvement’ with SC2 suggests that my view may be wrong.

I’d like to get really good at SC2 (by this I mean I’d like to be competitive at Masters level) BUT, although I do try to devote all my spare time to it, I just don’t have time to spend more than say 3 hours a day (some of which will be spent watching pro games as opposed to playing). Here is my history:

Season 1 – started in bronze, got to Rank 1 Silver.

Seasons 2&3 – high Gold.

Seasons 4&5 – high Platinum.

I am now ranked 1 in my Platinum league. I play Terran on the EU server and my APM is maybe 80 average (but is very variable – there are moments when it hits 300 and moments when it is 0). I read the forums: many people just seem to ‘be’ Masters. Ie they just play the game and instantly achieve this sort of level (don’t ask me how). Almost all of the top players in the world are under 30 – let alone nearer 40 – so perhaps age also acts as a barrier to improvement, especially if you come to RTS gaming ‘late’.

So to my questions:

1) Does this (slow) rate of progress indicate that I have roughly ‘found my level’? Ie I will be high Plat/low Diamond maybe but not much better.

2) Will I be naturally capped by my low APM? Is APM like IQ ie it doesn’t really change that much over time. Or can anyone provide examples of how there APM has improved markedly?

3) Are there people in the Masters league who don’t have to practise that much to be that good? Ie is there such a thing as ‘natural talent’ in SC2 or is it basically application?

My practice at the moment consists of laddering and watching professional games. I do not have partners to play with and I’ve never had coaching. I am sure it is fair to say that both would benefit me but can anyone say they’ve improved dramatically as a result of either/both? If so, are these people who actually have a sh*tload more time to play than I do? Ie might I be better just carrying on laddering until I win the lottery and can play full time?

I wasn't sure a 'replay' was necessary for these sorts of questions. Happy to provide if necessary.

Simon


staying gold and then plat two seasons isn't slow progress, it's just not lightning fast. The majority of people who are masters either have gotten there through practice over the past year, have had prior RTS experience or are just very naturally talented at the game. There is no reason to believe that you're going to stop improving, you might be plat/diamond for a while, but if you devote the time, you will get better. That is, assuming you're practicing properly and not just playing games mindlessly

I don't think there is too much natural talent involved in SC2 even though I believe it exists, in that the only people in masters/gm aren't there by natural talent alone. Strategy games may come more naturally to some people than others, but unlike most sports, in which fierce practice must be fused with innate talent to be able to compete at a professional level, to become a top-level starcraft player requires only time, application and the right mindset, even if natural talent could speed up the process. If you think you have hit your personal skill cap, you will stay there. If you believe you can get better, and practice accordingly, you will get better.

As for APM, you can increase your APM (and I do mean eAPM, not just by spamming), though I don't know if it's something that will improve solely by your regular practice. My APM has just about doubled since I began playing SC2 regularly, though I attribute much of this to my foray into Brood War, which has taught me better mechanics and increased my ability to, well, do stuff.

I'm not sure if I even answered your questions, though I think a lot of it relates back to it, so I hope this is sufficient.

On a somewhat related note, I've seen a lot of people in the thread recommend coaching. While it would almost definitely help to get some coaching, I don't think it's too important to be coached to improve at that level.

Also reading the OP again, I see you mention age. The older you get, the slower your hands will want to move, even though they can move about as fast as they could when they were younger, assuming they haven't been damaged in some way. You can be a progamer when you're 60, as long as your hands and your mind can keep up.
abefroman
Profile Joined December 2010
70 Posts
February 15 2012 20:15 GMT
#37
I have virtually the exact same problem as the original poster.

32 years old here. Been either tip top platinum or bottom of the basement diamond since around the middle of season 2. If I had to venture a guess, I don't see any reason why any person can't make masters. However....simply playing games isn't enough to do that, at least in my opinion.

This game is incredibly difficult. It is more difficult for some than others, based on experience in other RTS...amount of time playing games in general. What makes it so difficult is that practicing the mechanics of it are only half the battle. I feel like I have relatively good mechanics in this game...when I have a purpose. For instance...

my PvT is pretty strong. I beat someone a few times today in practice games, and they said they hadn't lost that badly to players in mid-high masters. On the other hand....I am perfectly capable of losing to a gold level player....consistently, with my pvz or zvt. I just don't understand the matchups. At all.

So, essentially what I am saying, is that there is a lot of meaningless practice in this game. I feel right now that if I play 100 games of zvt, I will not improve. I don't know what to look for. I don't know how to look for it. I don't know how to respond. Moreover....because 90% of what I am doing in my zvt is wondering what in the world I should be doing, my mechanics/macro goes to hell, and even if i somehow made the correct decision I would still lose. This is why I feel I get WORSE with every game I play in some matchups.

Long story short....practice doesn't make perfect....perfect practice does (yeah yeah old cliche). I have finally sort of come to the conclusion there is no point in me even practicing to improve until I have some semblance of a grasp of my clueless matchups. Muddling along and shooting yourself in the foot during games doesn't help you improve. Working towards a concrete goal for a specific point in each game will help you. My problem....as I assume yours likely is...is not knowing what yoiu should be working towards.
bugabinga
Profile Joined February 2011
Germany17 Posts
February 15 2012 20:21 GMT
#38
Check out the "sc2improve" channel on the EU server.

Its a dedicated group of players from gold to masters set on improving ^^.
Mass Orbital, hard counter to Charge!
Sianos
Profile Joined April 2011
580 Posts
February 15 2012 20:23 GMT
#39
Everyone can be Masters if they focus on important things. I have seen Master Players which were really bad -> A lot of Supply Blocks -> A lot of overres -> no minimap awarenes. But he was Masters and i´m Diamond. Even on a bad day, my macro would be way more better then his, but i really suck at engagements and i think that´s what holds me down.

You have to improve step by step. The first thing is to have a gameplan, which contains the unit composition in the lategame, the unit composition in the midgame and the way you get there. You don´t need exact BOs for it, but you should thing in terms of tech. In which order do i get my unit composition to the midgame and in which order do i transition into my lategame composition. That´s the first step to do. This is really easy done, by just copying a Standard build from a programer.

The next step is to improve your Macro and your Mechanics. Use hotkeys for your units and your production buildings and try to keep your money low -> no supply block -> no idle production facilities -> no overres. Then you look at the things you die to until reaching the lategame and try to find ways for scouting and adapting correctly.

Alone with doing this things well, you can easily get into Diamond. That´s how i got there and i´m in a similar position as you. No RTS before SC2 release and i just play max 3-5 Games a day. Then it´s time to focus on engagements and multiprogned herrass/attacks. At the beginning i had like 30 apm, but i´m able to have 120 EAPM and this is just the profit from macroing your stuff. At the beginning you can´t do all these apm intesive things, so you have to focus on the basics and stay there until you can do this second nature. Your APM will also improve through this and you will be able to do additional things.

GL HF in your SC2 tourney.
abefroman
Profile Joined December 2010
70 Posts
February 15 2012 20:24 GMT
#40
On February 16 2012 05:21 bugabinga wrote:
Check out the "sc2improve" channel on the EU server.

Its a dedicated group of players from gold to masters set on improving ^^.

Anyone know of anything similar to this on NA?
Tal0n
Profile Joined April 2010
United States175 Posts
February 15 2012 20:31 GMT
#41
just as a general comment: anyone who is willing to adept their mindset towards what seems to be "good" (listen to artosis!) will be able to get into masters eventually as long as you play consistently. there is no need to play 3 hours a day. that merely speeds up the process. if you gradually improve and don't needlessly rage (or anything alike) but instead look for ways to get better, you can be masters.
abefroman
Profile Joined December 2010
70 Posts
February 15 2012 20:31 GMT
#42
On February 16 2012 05:23 Sianos wrote:
Everyone can be Masters if they focus on important things. I have seen Master Players which were really bad -> A lot of Supply Blocks -> A lot of overres -> no minimap awarenes. But he was Masters and i´m Diamond. Even on a bad day, my macro would be way more better then his, but i really suck at engagements and i think that´s what holds me down.

You have to improve step by step. The first thing is to have a gameplan, which contains the unit composition in the lategame, the unit composition in the midgame and the way you get there. You don´t need exact BOs for it, but you should thing in terms of tech. In which order do i get my unit composition to the midgame and in which order do i transition into my lategame composition. That´s the first step to do. This is really easy done, by just copying a Standard build from a programer.

The next step is to improve your Macro and your Mechanics. Use hotkeys for your units and your production buildings and try to keep your money low -> no supply block -> no idle production facilities -> no overres. Then you look at the things you die to until reaching the lategame and try to find ways for scouting and adapting correctly.

Alone with doing this things well, you can easily get into Diamond. That´s how i got there and i´m in a similar position as you. No RTS before SC2 release and i just play max 3-5 Games a day. Then it´s time to focus on engagements and multiprogned herrass/attacks. At the beginning i had like 30 apm, but i´m able to have 120 EAPM and this is just the profit from macroing your stuff. At the beginning you can´t do all these apm intesive things, so you have to focus on the basics and stay there until you can do this second nature. Your APM will also improve through this and you will be able to do additional things.

GL HF in your SC2 tourney.


I think you underestimate the difficulty of coming up with a gameplan...which I believe to be my biggest problem in my zvt and zvz.

I can watch pro games, or look on the forums, and see that everyone, for example does and/or should go muta/ling/baneling. However...i don't know why I'm getting those units, or what to use them for....because they seem to always die without killing anything. So every game I'm sitting there wondering...should I make more of this? Maybe the lings aren't going to be good if he has a lot of tnaks? More mutas? Maybe it's all crap and I should just make drones and get a hive!! Then I look up and realize I've missed injects, I'm down 30 supply, and have 1500 banked because I don't understand the matchup at all.

Contrast that with my zvp....where I actually do understand things in a basic sense. Protoss FFE. Ok i take a 3rd. Drone like crazy. get roaches and lair. Lots of roaches. Throw down hydra den to reinforce against a push. Make spire in preparation. Pressure toss 3rd. Make a bunch of corrupters if i see colossis. Win.
Glurkenspurk
Profile Joined November 2010
United States1915 Posts
February 15 2012 20:36 GMT
#43
Master league is not particularly high level play. People act like it's remotely close to being a progamer. It isn't. Find a build for each matchup, gain a little bit of game knowledge> boom, masters.
ThePlayer33
Profile Joined October 2011
Australia2378 Posts
February 15 2012 20:40 GMT
#44
On February 16 2012 03:59 CrtBalorda wrote:
1. Anyone can be masters
2. Masters still sucks


ya agreed. awful, some might say.
| Idra | YuGiOh | Leenock | Coca |
black3200
Profile Joined August 2010
Canada74 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-02-15 20:43:29
February 15 2012 20:40 GMT
#45
I never played a RTS untill sc2 and i started in gold, to get to master isnt that hard, if you are willing to do what it takes to get there.. however once you hit mid master.. That is when Casual and competitive Split IMO. As you know just like with anything as you get better you have to work harder to become even better. So

I think you can make it to masters, i feel almost anyone can. If you cant do it it prob because you are not putting the time you need to get there.. some people ( koreans ) are born with 200 apm and 1000pts in master. But us mortals need many many hours of time.

APM wise it was said many times you just get faster as you get more comfortable with the game. For example i have a avg of about 90 apm.. ( im low master now ). But when i was plat i had a very hard time keeping that apm when shit started getting "Real" .. or Crisis management then my apm drops to 20.. and i kinda fall apart. After being cheesed/rushed/ Naniwaed countless times you start to stay calm during that cloak banshee or w/e and end up doing better...


I also do poorly when i have a bad day at work or i want to kill my wife <-- ( I AM KIDDING ) so i just avoid playing sc2 all together or i call those the days where i watch streams/pros read forum ( like today ) and post in /r/starcraft.

Alot of people say you have Natural talent to be good.. I dont feel that is accurate at all, unless you are mentally restricted then anyone can at least get to master.. to be more then that takes a level of dedication that us nubs dont have or not willing to do so.

IMO there is no "Skill Wall" just at that point which is different for all you have to "step your game up" And put more effort, you should talk to some pro ( which ever you can get a hold of and will talk back.) and just ask him how much time he puts into sc2.

My cousin is a Bronze toss ( hahah i know right Toss Bronze?!) but when he plays hes rages about imba ect.. so one day i told him i will help you improve. I suggest some simple like a 3 gate robo off 1 base ect.. if i tell him what to do he does well and can win... but once he is left to his own devices all the sudden Mother ship rush /cannon every game / dt / Vr.. im sure you know since he is bronze they are not done well at all and he losses.. so i tell him to stop doing that and he wont listen .. thus he stays in bronze.

TL:DR - You can do anything and get anywhere, just are you willing to sacrifice IRL for more SC2,
Give them nothing,But take from them..... everything!
hunts
Profile Joined September 2010
United States2113 Posts
February 15 2012 20:48 GMT
#46
I started out in copper in beta, made my way up thru every league over time and got into masters a few weeks after it opened up. I've been stuck in about mid masters since. I honnestly think anyone can get to masters, and anyone can get to GM by all inning or playing gimmicky if they spam enough games. Not everyone can get into GM by playing standard and improving their way into it rather than cheesing/all inning/spamming games, and definitely not everyone can go pro. But that's just my opinion based on my experience and that of people I know.
twitch.tv/huntstv 7x legend streamer
chip789
Profile Joined June 2010
Canada199 Posts
February 15 2012 20:50 GMT
#47
Becoming masters in season 6 is different then becoming masters in season 1. Back then not everyone on ladder was dedicated starcraft player. If you still play this game, it's cause you are dedicated and love starcraft. WHich means you are generally good.
Dude....I love Starcraft.
SupLilSon
Profile Joined October 2011
Malaysia4123 Posts
February 15 2012 20:53 GMT
#48
Yea, I truly believe anyone can get to masters. I've been playing RTS games since I can remember (Red Alert was one of my earliest gaming memories) but never ever until SC2 did I try to be competitive. Season 1 I started in silver and worked my way up to diamond through practice and watching Day9 Daily's. It took me until this season to hit masters but I did. Those people who seemed to just magically or naturally be master quality probably played a lot of BW or WC3 at a semi serious level.

APM will not limit how high on the ladder you can climb. There are a few pro players with very average APM. However, you should probably model your builds and gameplay with your APM in mind. Don't try to emmulate fOrGG's super harrassment style builds if you know you can't play above 100 APM, you simply won't be able to pull it off.

That brings me to what I believe is the most important bit of information. At least in my opinion, to get better you need to get simple. For me, the turning point from being high diamond to beating masters players was picking a very few select builds and playing those builds almost exclusively. Pick 1-2 builds for each matchup that you like playing and practice them over and over and over. With time, these builds will become very reliable for you as you learn how to adapt and transition with them. I think many aspiring players try to get good at too many builds and realistically become mediocre at a handful of strategies but not a master in any.

Overall, anyone can get to masters if they set their mind to it (outside of KR, masters really isn't that high of a skill level). But IMO, the fastest way to improve is to standardize your gameplay and really focus on becomming super good at a few select builds.
tUUTZ
Profile Joined July 2011
Finland122 Posts
February 15 2012 20:53 GMT
#49
I'm master and I'm fucking awful, so yes everyone can be in Master league.
Reason.SC2
Profile Joined April 2010
Canada1047 Posts
February 15 2012 21:10 GMT
#50
On February 16 2012 03:34 terrantosaur wrote:
So to my questions:

1) Does this (slow) rate of progress indicate that I have roughly ‘found my level’? Ie I will be high Plat/low Diamond maybe but not much better.

2) Will I be naturally capped by my low APM? Is APM like IQ ie it doesn’t really change that much over time. Or can anyone provide examples of how there APM has improved markedly?

3) Are there people in the Masters league who don’t have to practise that much to be that good? Ie is there such a thing as ‘natural talent’ in SC2 or is it basically application?

My practice at the moment consists of laddering and watching professional games. I do not have partners to play with and I’ve never had coaching. I am sure it is fair to say that both would benefit me but can anyone say they’ve improved dramatically as a result of either/both? If so, are these people who actually have a sh*tload more time to play than I do? Ie might I be better just carrying on laddering until I win the lottery and can play full time?

I wasn't sure a 'replay' was necessary for these sorts of questions. Happy to provide if necessary.

Simon


Starcraft 2 is my first RTS game that I actually tried playing online vs other people. I started at age 25. I am in master league and have been since it was first introduced way back when. I also work full time and do not have time for more than an average of 2-3 games per day.

To your questions:
1) Slow rate of progress doesn't mean you've plateaued for good. It could be that your practice regime isn't suited to learning play at a higher level, or that you have developed some bad habits along the way... habits you can get by with in plat but will be punished for at higher leagues. Or perhaps you need to try new things in the way that you approach the game - sometimes it can be very helpful to spend a week or two playing the other races to get a better feel for how they think in your matchup. Maybe you need to do some replay analysis, or perhaps you've been doing too much. It's hard to tell... but if you're not improving, just try something different and keep at it.

2) You will be naturally capped by your low APM, but there are grandmaster players with sub 100 eAPM. So yeah, but the cap is much higher than where you're at. And APM *can* change drastically over time. When I first started playing during beta (diamond league was the highest then), my apm was 60-90. Through playing more, and not even by focusing on apm as a point of improvement, my apm has gone up to 150-200. Same race, similar builds, just having played more games has made much of the game muscle memory, so instead of spending a split second thinking of what needs to be done next, it is done automatically. This drastically will improve your apm.

Think of it this way, if you can type at lets say even just 60 words per minute (which afaik isn't even considered fast), that's 300 apm if the average word is 4 characters + a space. You are probably easily physically capable of a lot faster play, you just need to 'get into the rhythm' by knowing exactly what to do next at all times and staying active during the entirety of the game.

3) Some people are more predisposed than others to perform well at rts games. It is a fact of life, but this doesn't necessarily have an effect on your personal skill cap. I'd say that much of the 'predisposition to being good at starcraft' has to do with the fact that some people are more driven to put in time to practice and get better. Natural talent is a factor, but not a very significant one imo.

As for coaching, given that you are probably short on time, but decent on money, I would actually recommend having a few sessions. It will likely be extremely helpful and you will probably notice immediate results. Of course, the coaching won't be useful unless you apply what you learn in the sessions to a bunch of ladder/practice games, so try to do both!


Improving at sc is much tougher when you have a limited amount of time... but believe me it isn't impossible. So long as the competitive fire burns within you, keep playing. You will improve, and you will get that master league logo soon enough
Ruscour
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
5233 Posts
February 15 2012 21:17 GMT
#51
Masters is nothing special, not even GM. If you play often enough you can get there. Masters is the top 2%, imagine one in 50 people who play this game are in Masters. That's a pretty high number. It's really not hard, you certainly don't have to be talented...I did it, and I have the multitasking of a brick wall.
VashTS
Profile Joined September 2010
United States1675 Posts
February 15 2012 21:30 GMT
#52
IMO, anybody able to put time and even slight effort into this game can become Masters.
VashTS; 330; Random -- Ranked #9 Pokemon Video Game Player in the World in 2009
PandaMonk
Profile Joined June 2011
United States300 Posts
February 15 2012 21:35 GMT
#53
I feel like playing in isolation is only a problem if you have ladder anxiety, having a buddy near your level helps you motivate you click the find battle button. I think as long as you play smart you could definetly get to masters with good time investment. Axeslav used to only have like 80 apm and was a PRO. Most def. possible. GOGO, YOU CAN DO IT
Alfalfa
Profile Joined November 2010
Canada26 Posts
February 15 2012 21:40 GMT
#54
Well, from my experience, I started bronze league in season 1 and finished the season in plat and I'm stuck there since the end of season 1... I think that it is possible to cap mainly because of the dexterity (APM) required to play the game. I do not have enough skills to be better than plat so I'll probably stay there until SC3 is released XD. This is the only rts game I ever played, so it could be one of the reason I am not good at the game because I am fairly good in other types of games such as DOTA-genre or FPS, but SC2 is way too hard for me. But it is probably different from one person to another so if your goal is to become master, just keep working hard!!
Arterial
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
Australia1039 Posts
February 15 2012 21:53 GMT
#55
I had previous RTS experience in BW, WC3, DoW and CoH and when I started playing SC2 in beta, I was put in copper league. Come release and I got put into bronze. I spent a fair amount of time practicing and now im mid-masters.

Honestly, it's ALL about practice and playing a lot. I rarely ever watched replays and my macro was atrocious up until when I hit masters. Not to say that you should have bad macro too though.

Masters is not impossible to achieve. Keep playing. If you ever lose a game on ladder, and you REALIZE what you did wrong, you'll keep progressing.
savior & jaedong
Shmu
Profile Joined February 2011
Canada27 Posts
February 15 2012 21:54 GMT
#56
from one Simon to another - I believe you can do it.

I'm 27, with only casual experience in RTS, and a (more than) full time job; I can only manage to play maybe 10-15 games a week - usually just enough to use up my bonus pool. Through playing consistantly and balancing my time between watching pros, studying builds, and laddering I've been able to make it from silver (at release) up to Platinum (Just placed this season).

I know by focusing on solid play, and learning from my mistakes, I will make it to Masters - and you can too!
fighter2_40
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
United States420 Posts
February 15 2012 21:57 GMT
#57
I think anyone can make masters as long as the have a consistent strategy for training. If you play 3 games a day and make deep analysis of your replays right after you lose a game, you'll learn more about your weaknesses and what you need to improve than if you just massed games.

Also, it's important to focus on one build per matchup and perfecting it, not just having a wide variety of builds until you've reached at least high diamond proficiency. (that being said the build you are trying to perfect should be a standard build in order to learn more about how the game is currently)

As for apm, it's not like iq where it's very hard to increase. I started playing at around 70 apm but moved up to 100 after getting used to the interface. After that by playing the ums map multitasking trainer, i was able to increase my apm to around 115-140 prepatch. Now it's sitting at around 100-110 post patch. Case in point, apm can be increased dramatically.
unix04
Profile Joined November 2011
United States89 Posts
February 15 2012 22:00 GMT
#58
I know people who will never get outta silver. I know some people who will make it to masters in no time. That said, it really depends on the person. Some people just have a greater capacity to adapt and adjust as difficulty arises. Some people just dont. This is not to say a person cannot gain the ability to learn, but people have tendencies to stray from focusing on what's important in order to improve.

As you move up the ladder, the questions you ask yourself are different. For instance, in bronze/silver, you will ask whether you've been producing constant scv's and army units. In diamond level, you no longer have to ask the same question, because you'll never get there with poor macro. Rather, you'll ask yourself whether you made the right engagement, or if you scouted at the right times. You just need to ask the right questions
i am the captain of my fate, the master of my soul
XiGua
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Sweden3085 Posts
February 15 2012 22:01 GMT
#59
All it takes is time and effective usage of that time.

I started in copper with no previous RTS experience. After a year I got into Masters, good luck with you!
ლ(ಠ益ಠლ) APM, Why u make me spam?
nanoscorp
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
United States1237 Posts
February 15 2012 22:05 GMT
#60
I read the forums: many people just seem to ‘be’ Masters.


There's a pretty big sampling bias going on here. First off, if you're reading TL, you're dealing with hardcore SC2 fans, with dedication to the game higher than most. Second, if you're going through threads about Master league specifically, you're running into a lot of people who drop in to say how Masters is no big deal because they can. The 2/100 guys in Masters league are MUCH more likely to pop in and make a post about their league status than the 80/100 guys in Bronze through Plat.

Keep improving your play and spend less time worrying about your league. When you look at your replays and say, "There's nothing I could have done better but I still lost" consistently, then maybe you've hit your peak. Until then though, I wouldn't worry about stalling out in your league progression.
Pelirrojo
Profile Joined April 2010
United States98 Posts
February 15 2012 22:05 GMT
#61
On February 16 2012 05:24 abefroman wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 16 2012 05:21 bugabinga wrote:
Check out the "sc2improve" channel on the EU server.

Its a dedicated group of players from gold to masters set on improving ^^.

Anyone know of anything similar to this on NA?


Join the channel "MN8" on NA. It's a "low level" group but there are a handful of masters players who are sometimes there and like to help people out. Typically 30 or so people online. I'm sure there are others, I'd check out the "looking for team" and "practice partners" threads.
Shirolol
Profile Joined April 2010
England504 Posts
February 15 2012 22:05 GMT
#62
Hi there, just thought i'd let you know that yes you can in fact 100% reach masters. I've been masters since it was implemented and i've played a grand total of 100 or so 1v1 games since RELEASE. (Not since a ladder reset!) SC2 is my first rts that i've played even remotely serious, I mean laddering etc, I played a lot of Wc3 but only dota/tds etc and similar for my broodwar experience, only TDs/marine arena/zergling blood/golems etc etc.

I have a lot of other genre experience though, so it's not like i've got no where to start from but still it's a different game entirely.

To directly address your questions though:

1. Could be for a myriad of reasons, how you're trying to improve, what strategies you're using, what race you're playing etc etc.. Impossible to tell you why just from that information you've given i'm afraid.

2. Not at all, i've seen my APM increase from when I first started playing sc2 in the beta (it was something like 30) to now where it's nearer to 100 average. I generally have very low average APM though as I don't spam for spams sake ever, I just do how many actions I need to do, as fast as I can! APM comes with practice usually, knowing EXACTLY what to do and how it feels doing it is when your APM will get higher. Muscle memory is a huge factor in being able to do your in game "to-do list" much quicker than in the past aswell.

3. My practice consists of watching some tournaments like GSL, as I hardly ever play. I don't watch replays of myself or others or try and iron out build orders or anything of the like. I actually wing it in every game I have ever played (I played terran in the past now I play zerg - but I am considering going back to Terran soon as I kind of miss my drops..).

Hope that gives you some drive to go play now as 3 hours a day is more than enough time to make your goal of hitting masters! Good luck.

Korean Netizen wrote: My ears died from the static and the music and my eyes died from the depressing gameplay and bad observer.
SlackerSC
Profile Joined January 2012
Australia41 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-02-15 23:50:25
February 15 2012 22:09 GMT
#63
Your story sounds a lot like mine. When I bought SC2 back in beta it was my first real RTS (I played the campaign of C&C:Generals but thats about it). I placed into bronze and was generally pretty noob. I watched some pro grames and videos and through lots of ladder games I'm now #1 in my SEA plat division as well. I've also got a full time job and lots of other stuff going on.

I think the biggest thing is just to be consistent with your practice. If your anything like me you'll go on a big SC2 kick for two weeks, playing heaps and learning new builds, get way better than you were at the start of the two weeks.. Then maybe something will come up and I won't touch the game for another 2 weeks and end up back where I started.

If I was going to make a conscious push into diamond/masters I'd have to really set out consistent and focused time to practice my starcraft. I still get supply blocked, my macro still slips if anything unexpected happens, my macro slips every time I move my army out of my natural (etc etc).

Your age doesn't matter. Just the amount of time you have to dedicate to the game.
ODKStevez
Profile Joined February 2011
Ireland1225 Posts
February 15 2012 22:09 GMT
#64
On February 16 2012 04:01 Berailfor wrote:
I wouldn't necessarily recommend coaching. Master league isn't extremely difficult to obtain. Just master your mechanics and that alone should get your there or pretty close. Know what builds are viable against what races, and if you execute those strategies properly then you will make it to master league fairly easily. You just gotta keep winning that's all.


It may not have been hard for you but for thousands of us in top Diamond like myself, we just feel like the skill gap between Diamond and Masters is so big.
Luppa <3
Bommes
Profile Joined June 2010
Germany1226 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-02-15 22:22:21
February 15 2012 22:11 GMT
#65
Leagues are really overrated, its not like you suddenly play different people when you are in masters league. Its a steady ELO system.

edit:
By the way I do think that everyone can make it into masters league. Many people including myself have played a lot of video games before (many would say too much), so it feels easy to be in the best 2% of SC2. For others its not a practiced thing, so they have to put a lot more effort into it. This is the same reason that we don't see any progamers yet who play SC2 as their first RTS. The vast majority of them was already among the very best players in other RTS games, so the transition to SC2 is easier than for players with less experience.
I think the most important thing is to just get comfortable using your mouse, be aware of how accurate and fast you can select things, don't look at your APM it doesn't say anything about that, just try to do the little things as fast and as accurate as possible and don't focus too much on the ingame strategy or the mindgames. Its all about the execution and that includes being aware of what is going on around you. You should always make sure that you know why you lost and that you don't analyze your losses wrong.
3D-Swifty
Profile Joined July 2011
England69 Posts
February 15 2012 22:38 GMT
#66
Yeah i went from bronze to masters in about a 6 month period. Anyone is capable of achieving masters its just a question of time and effort. Time is dependent on the person's ability and methods of training, Just watch tournaments, replays and streams to help you get a feel for the game. Its important to watch replays and see your mistakes in order to improve upon them next game. Good Luck.
jinorazi
Profile Joined October 2004
Korea (South)4948 Posts
February 15 2012 22:40 GMT
#67
i took me 10 years of bw for me to get to diamond then to master when it released, i'm sure anyone can be master if they play long enough.
age: 84 | location: california | sex: 잘함
Alisera
Profile Joined June 2011
United States71 Posts
February 15 2012 22:52 GMT
#68
I'm surprised how many people think anyone can be Masters (even those people with no previous RTS experience). I'm also surprised at the amount of people who play a low amount of games (1-5 a night) and still made it to Masters (even people starting in bronze-gold). It seems like just a matter of time spent and "keep at it"-ness? This thread is encouraging!!
Mesha
Profile Blog Joined January 2010
Bosnia-Herzegovina439 Posts
February 15 2012 22:53 GMT
#69
Yes. Problem with sc2 is that you can't see progress in a few days, so people thing that their practice doesn't work, or if they loose a few games they think they are worse than before. Just practice the right way and the right stuff and then compare your play in two months period. The progress will be more than obvious. Anyone that puts some effort, some thought, watch replays, works on most often mistakes and plays the game regularly can get masters easily. I am the living proof.
Reality hits you hard bro.
phiinix
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
United States1169 Posts
February 16 2012 00:07 GMT
#70
If you want it enough, and are willing to learn and lose, I say yes. In my opinion the reason why people cap out at plat or diamond is that they aren't willing to admit the faults in their play. Things become "stupid" and "imbalanced" and then the game isn't worth playing anymore. With good attitude and persistence, it's very do-able
ishyishy
Profile Joined February 2011
United States826 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-02-16 00:20:43
February 16 2012 00:19 GMT
#71
The last RTS game I played was Dawn of War, and I only played the single player modes at that; I never played it online.

I usually just played WoW; I've played that for 8 years. I played some single player games like Crysis too.

Then Sc2 came out. I bought it on release. The only reason I bought it was because it was a Blizzard game and I knew that it would have millions of dollars behind it.

As any other new player to RTS, I started out in low Bronze. I think the highest was plat, maybe diamond just came out? I cant remember. I remained in bronze for about 3 weeks. After that, I started going up in rank. THe only thing I did was go to Youtube and search Protoss guides. I found some for proxy 2 gating and 4 gating, so I tried those builds. I'd say it was no longer than another 3 weeks later and I was in diamond.

Fast forward.

I hit Master league 2 seasons ago, and was able to maintain it. I never got past rank 50 or so, but I never got demoted either. I was winning less than half my games, and I wasnt having fun anymore. Some people enjoy challenge and like to improve at things, but I generally dont. I'm now using another account that I bought for my friend (that he doesnt use anymore because he hates this game lol) which goes from bronze-plat and back again, depending on what league I want to troll.

As for the OP: Yes it is possible, anyone can hit master league. I come from the opposite of RTS background and I did it without TOO much trouble. I only play 2 or 3 games a day, if that.

Side opinion: I hate the ladder. I dont like ladder systems in general. I dont like competition when it isnt in the most casual of formats. Leagues and ranks mean absolutely nothing to me, and they shouldnt mean anything for you either. If you want headaches, lose sleep, and increase your risk of stroke, then get mad at losing lol.
terrantosaur
Profile Joined August 2011
42 Posts
February 16 2012 00:58 GMT
#72
Wow. Thanks everyone for responding, I am a bit overwhelmed. Also encouraged though. The consensus seems to be that I can do it and I am going to do my very best to achieve it. I had a good start today with my season 6 placement match where I got into Diamond - I can't tell you how good this felt (yes, I took a picture of the screen...). A few matches this evening and I'm (bizarrely) ranked 1 Diamond which I know won't last but I still take pride in.

BTW I totally agree with the couple of comments about not downplaying Masters status. As someone who really does try to improve, I really really admire anyone who can get there. THose that get there with no apparent effort are just freaky good IMO.

So here is my plan:

1. I will watch DeMuslim's stream whenever I can. He is a fellow Brit and I really enjoy his honest comments in-game (like when he's against Protoss and says "I've no idea what build they're doing"... which is exactly how I feel :-))

2. I will think about getting some coaching. I'm only on the EU server so if anyone could recommend someone I'd appreciate it.

3. I'm going to join the group mentioned above for people who want to get better and see how that goes.

4. I'm going to stick to the following builds:

Vs Terran: Reaper expand
Vs Protoss: 1/1/1. Sorry but I've tried the macro style and well....
Vs Zerg: 1 rax FE into mass drops.

And thanks again everyone for commenting. I will report back on my progress!

I've posted an example of my 'style' in each of the match-ups below just in case anyone wants to watch (and then probably explain at great length why there is no conceivable way that someone like me will ever make it to Masters!).

Simon
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replay-videos/17956
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replay-videos/17957
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replay-videos/17958


NoisyNinja
Profile Joined February 2011
United States991 Posts
February 16 2012 01:48 GMT
#73
Impossible says "I'm possible". Focus and go.
Drowsy
Profile Blog Joined November 2005
United States4876 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-02-16 01:58:06
February 16 2012 01:57 GMT
#74
Yes. In fact I strongly believe anyone below diamond (who is actively trying to be placed in a higher league, people who don't give a fuck are exempt) must have some mental handicap or be missing an arm.
Our Protoss, Who art in Aiur HongUn be Thy name; Thy stalker come, Thy will be blunk, on ladder as it is in Micro Tourny. Give us this win in our daily ladder, and forgive us our cheeses, As we forgive those who play zerg against us.
scarper65
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
1560 Posts
February 16 2012 02:01 GMT
#75
The only thing that stops people from getting into masters league is that some people have to put in more time than other people.
Belial88
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States5217 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-02-16 02:08:54
February 16 2012 02:01 GMT
#76
Any gamer can with any race. Anyone can if they play deathball Protoss (not a balance whine, i'm just stating that if you turtle a deathball, you need less skill to pull it off to get to masters, especially since lower level people can't pull off the macro or aggression to 'counter' it and low masters is low level, and mech isn't really viable in all of the 3 match-ups and not as hard to deal with as zerg, you might actually need skill to do it in tvz).

For the average person, yea. If you play 2,000 games (not even sure on the exact number, probably less, whatever) you will definitely be masters though, provided you are at least like 17 years old.

So here is my plan:...


Dude... your plan is horrible. You aren't getting it.

1. Yes, demuslim is a beast, but you are nowhere near his level, 99% of masters players are seriously like bronze to a diamond compared to him, and you are better off PLAYING.

In fact, when I was diamond, and first realized I 'could' hit masters, I made a vow to stop watching tournaments, stop watching streams, stop posting on TL, stop posting on any forum, stop watching VODs, stop watching day9. Suffice to say, i hit masters almost within a week.

You just have to PLAY. How much time have you spent on just in this thread alone? An hour already? That's easily 2 games. All the time you waste watching stuff, yea you may learn stuff, but you would've learned a LOT more playing. Not to mention, anyone below high masters is at a level of play where you'd just learn way more by playing the game, and learning it for yourself. Plus, you can't do what Demuslim does, he's 'above ladder', he could do some serious troll stuff and get away with it because he's that good. So maybe some of his play is trolling, maybe he does it but doesn't realize it's not viable against an MVP caliber opponent, maybe he does, but either way you are better off PLAYING.

2. You are way too low level to get coaching. All a coach will do is say "yea man just do this build ezpz get masters pay me $20" or "build probes, build pylons". Get a coach once you hit high masters. Or I mean go for it, it's your money, it's only a bit of time. But you really don't need a coach. You just need to know how to be critical of yourself, and understand you macro like total shit. Because unless you are high masters, it's true that you actually macro like total shit. Myself included (mid masters).

3. You want to play. Maybe join a chat channel and ask to play better people than you, but focus more on playing, not joining social groups.

4. You can do whatever builds you want. It's your macro that's a problem.

In short, you need to PLAY more. Get off the forums. Completely disassociate from every tournament, every vod, every pro, every stream. I strongly recommend, that if you want to hit masters, you should not watch any tournaments or anything or even visit reddit or TL (especially reddit).

Just get out there and play dude. Masters really isn't high level at all, and even if it was, you are just holding yourself back by not playing. I guarentee you, you play 2,000 games, you'll easily be masters.
How to build a $500 i7-3770K Ultimate Computer:http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?topic_id=392709 ******** 100% Safe Razorless Delid Method! http://www.overclock.net/t/1376206/how-to-delid-your-ivy-bridge-cpu-with-out-a-razor-blade/0_100
Fencar
Profile Blog Joined August 2011
United States2694 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-02-16 02:26:48
February 16 2012 02:15 GMT
#77
You never really know if you can or can't get to masters until you try.

I didn't know that in less than a year, I could go straight from bronze>masters.

Background doesn't matter too much if you're focused on improving, though it will give you a boost.

I actually did play RTS games before SC2, though none quite like this one. They were Majesty, Majesty Gold Edition, Star Wars Empire at War, and the Empire at War Forces of Corruption expansion.

Oh yeah, I also did cheeze from Bronze>Platinum; the 6-rax all-in. After that, I started doing more standard builds, usually macro oriented.

So lets see, Season 1: Bronze. Mostly played Custom games, didn't know about the pro scene or teamliquid.

Season 2: Started playing a lot more most of the way through the season. Managed to make Top 2 gold. I have discovered HuskyStarcraft and Liquid TLO's 6 rax.

Season 3: Top 1 Platinum. Discovered Day9 and his awesomeness.

Season 4: Diamond. Started watching Day9 a lot more, rather than HuskyStarcraft.

Season 5: Top 2 Diamond. Switched hotkey setups from Standard to Optimus 1.3, had a slight tilt period because of that.

Season 6 so far: Master league, refining builds and attempting to not get supply blocked.

I also didn't play very many games during all this; only a few hundred total.

EDIT:

On February 16 2012 07:52 Alisera wrote:
I'm surprised how many people think anyone can be Masters (even those people with no previous RTS experience). I'm also surprised at the amount of people who play a low amount of games (1-5 a night) and still made it to Masters (even people starting in bronze-gold). It seems like just a matter of time spent and "keep at it"-ness? This thread is encouraging!!

This is actually what happened to me. Though, I did spend a lot of time reading forums and watching VOD's. I did notice that you improve faster if you do a mix between the two, and sometimes after having a tilt, playing or doing something else and then coming back for a few games worked wonders.

Double Edit:

On February 16 2012 11:01 Belial88 wrote:
Any gamer can with any race. Anyone can if they play deathball Protoss (not a balance whine, i'm just stating that if you turtle a deathball, you need less skill to pull it off to get to masters, especially since lower level people can't pull off the macro or aggression to 'counter' it and low masters is low level, and mech isn't really viable in all of the 3 match-ups and not as hard to deal with as zerg, you might actually need skill to do it in tvz).

For the average person, yea. If you play 2,000 games (not even sure on the exact number, probably less, whatever) you will definitely be masters though, provided you are at least like 17 years old.

Show nested quote +
So here is my plan:...


Dude... your plan is horrible. You aren't getting it.

1. Yes, demuslim is a beast, but you are nowhere near his level, 99% of masters players are seriously like bronze to a diamond compared to him, and you are better off PLAYING.

In fact, when I was diamond, and first realized I 'could' hit masters, I made a vow to stop watching tournaments, stop watching streams, stop posting on TL, stop posting on any forum, stop watching VODs, stop watching day9. Suffice to say, i hit masters almost within a week.

You just have to PLAY. How much time have you spent on just in this thread alone? An hour already? That's easily 2 games. All the time you waste watching stuff, yea you may learn stuff, but you would've learned a LOT more playing. Not to mention, anyone below high masters is at a level of play where you'd just learn way more by playing the game, and learning it for yourself. Plus, you can't do what Demuslim does, he's 'above ladder', he could do some serious troll stuff and get away with it because he's that good. So maybe some of his play is trolling, maybe he does it but doesn't realize it's not viable against an MVP caliber opponent, maybe he does, but either way you are better off PLAYING.

2. You are way too low level to get coaching. All a coach will do is say "yea man just do this build ezpz get masters pay me $20" or "build probes, build pylons". Get a coach once you hit high masters. Or I mean go for it, it's your money, it's only a bit of time. But you really don't need a coach. You just need to know how to be critical of yourself, and understand you macro like total shit. Because unless you are high masters, it's true that you actually macro like total shit. Myself included (mid masters).

3. You want to play. Maybe join a chat channel and ask to play better people than you, but focus more on playing, not joining social groups.

4. You can do whatever builds you want. It's your macro that's a problem.

In short, you need to PLAY more. Get off the forums. Completely disassociate from every tournament, every vod, every pro, every stream. I strongly recommend, that if you want to hit masters, you should not watch any tournaments or anything or even visit reddit or TL (especially reddit).

Just get out there and play dude. Masters really isn't high level at all, and even if it was, you are just holding yourself back by not playing. I guarentee you, you play 2,000 games, you'll easily be masters.

I wish I could do this, but I get 'fatigued' if I play too many games, or a longer (20 minutes+) intense game.

I know it's strictly on the mind, but I can't seem to play more than a few games a session without getting tired. It's getting better slowly, since I'm pushing myself to play slightly more each session (usually), but it's still a problem that I hope I can fix.
This is my signature. There are many like it, but this one is mine.
Blazinghand *
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
United States25551 Posts
February 16 2012 02:21 GMT
#78
On February 16 2012 11:15 Fencer710 wrote:
You never really know if you can or can't get to masters until you try.

I didn't know that in less than a year, I could go straight from bronze>masters.

Background doesn't matter too much if you're focused on improving, though it will give you a boost.

I actually did play RTS games before SC2, though none quite like this one. They were Majesty, Majesty Gold Edition, Star Wars Empire at War, and the Empire at War Forces of Corruption expansion.

Oh yeah, I also did cheeze from Bronze>Platinum; the 6-rax all-in. After that, I started doing more standard builds, usually macro oriented.

So lets see, Season 1: Bronze. Mostly played Custom games, didn't know about the pro scene or teamliquid.

Season 2: Top 2 gold. I have discovered HuskyStarcraft and Liquid TLO's 6 rax.

Season 3: Top 1 Platinum. Discovered Day9 and his awesomeness.

Season 4: Diamond. Started watching Day9 a lot more, rather than HuskyStarcraft.

Season 5: Top 2 Diamond. Switched hotkey setups from Standard to Optimus 1.3, had a slight tilt period because of that.

Season 6 so far: Master league, refining builds and attempting to not get supply blocked.

I also didn't play very many games during all this; only a few hundred total.


Fencer you're my bro but I think it's worth noting that breaking this stuff down by season isn't helpful. I haven't really improved in Season 5 but I only played like 20 games!

In fact, I think that's a flaw in the OP as well. Look at it this way, lets say from seasons 5 through 8 you play:

S5: 300 games
S6: 300 games
S7: 50 games
S8: 50 games

And in season 5 you go from Gold to Plat, and in Season 6 you go from Plat to Diamond. Then in Seasons 7 and 8 you get stuck in diamond. Have you peaked? No, you're playing way less now (though still like playing a game every day), it'll take a long time to get better like that. You could like go a week without playing a TvZ without even noticing!

These things take times and tons of games. Don't watch streams. Pick some standard builds and play like a beast. Macro like a mofo and crush your opponents under the weight of your massive armies! Make their women cry and their children ophans! Nobody became a tennis champ by sitting at home and watching wimbledon
When you stare into the iCCup, the iCCup stares back.
TL+ Member
CluEleSs_UK
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United Kingdom583 Posts
February 16 2012 02:23 GMT
#79
I think just like anything, some people have a natural taking to it (not necessarily naturally talented, but perhaps their cognitive workings make them better at something), and some people have to work hard to get it. I had to work super hard to get to Masters, but I have plenty of friends who did it easy.
"If it turns out he is leaving the ESL to focus on cooking crystal meth I'll agree that it is somewhat disgraceful, but I'll hold off judgement until then."
Blazinghand *
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
United States25551 Posts
February 16 2012 02:27 GMT
#80
On February 16 2012 11:15 Fencer710 wrote:
EDIT:

Show nested quote +
On February 16 2012 07:52 Alisera wrote:
I'm surprised how many people think anyone can be Masters (even those people with no previous RTS experience). I'm also surprised at the amount of people who play a low amount of games (1-5 a night) and still made it to Masters (even people starting in bronze-gold). It seems like just a matter of time spent and "keep at it"-ness? This thread is encouraging!!

This is actually what happened to me. Though, I did spend a lot of time reading forums and watching VOD's. I did notice that you improve faster if you do a mix between the two, and sometimes after having a tilt, playing or doing something else and then coming back for a few games worked wonders.


I got all the way into gold league by doing the following build every matchup, every map:
9 supply depot
10 barracks
Add 3 more barracks as you get minerals (my reasoning is by delaying my OC I get an "extra" barracks)
make your CC into an OC
make 30 marines
do not cut any scvs except by accident
attack-move with your marines, do not pull scvs or anything

I was on a track-pad at the time, and it was a macbook track-pad, so it didn't have right-click functionality. There was gonna be no splitting, no stutter stepping, nothing. My computer had about a full second of latency due to how underpowered it was. I had never heard of TL, or watched any professional streams, or anything like that. My entire build is based on the idea that with constant production of marines i could have a bigger army than my opponent who would be trying to manage complicated things like "vespene gas"-- by doing a minerals only build, I can make my army stronger than his more easily even though his strategy might be better. I'd be ahead in food and have a larger army, large enough to overwhelm the defender's advantage more often than not, just because all I did was focus on making marines, scvs, and supply depots.

In a very specific sense, this was a macrostomp.

The point I'm trying to get across is that macro is important
When you stare into the iCCup, the iCCup stares back.
TL+ Member
Fencar
Profile Blog Joined August 2011
United States2694 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-02-16 02:30:03
February 16 2012 02:28 GMT
#81
On February 16 2012 11:21 Blazinghand wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 16 2012 11:15 Fencer710 wrote:
You never really know if you can or can't get to masters until you try.

I didn't know that in less than a year, I could go straight from bronze>masters.

Background doesn't matter too much if you're focused on improving, though it will give you a boost.

I actually did play RTS games before SC2, though none quite like this one. They were Majesty, Majesty Gold Edition, Star Wars Empire at War, and the Empire at War Forces of Corruption expansion.

Oh yeah, I also did cheeze from Bronze>Platinum; the 6-rax all-in. After that, I started doing more standard builds, usually macro oriented.

So lets see, Season 1: Bronze. Mostly played Custom games, didn't know about the pro scene or teamliquid.

Season 2: Top 2 gold. I have discovered HuskyStarcraft and Liquid TLO's 6 rax.

Season 3: Top 1 Platinum. Discovered Day9 and his awesomeness.

Season 4: Diamond. Started watching Day9 a lot more, rather than HuskyStarcraft.

Season 5: Top 2 Diamond. Switched hotkey setups from Standard to Optimus 1.3, had a slight tilt period because of that.

Season 6 so far: Master league, refining builds and attempting to not get supply blocked.

I also didn't play very many games during all this; only a few hundred total.


Fencer you're my bro but I think it's worth noting that breaking this stuff down by season isn't helpful. I haven't really improved in Season 5 but I only played like 20 games!

In fact, I think that's a flaw in the OP as well. Look at it this way, lets say from seasons 5 through 8 you play:

S5: 300 games
S6: 300 games
S7: 50 games
S8: 50 games

And in season 5 you go from Gold to Plat, and in Season 6 you go from Plat to Diamond. Then in Seasons 7 and 8 you get stuck in diamond. Have you peaked? No, you're playing way less now (though still like playing a game every day), it'll take a long time to get better like that. You could like go a week without playing a TvZ without even noticing!

These things take times and tons of games. Don't watch streams. Pick some standard builds and play like a beast. Macro like a mofo and crush your opponents under the weight of your massive armies! Make their women cry and their children ophans! Nobody became a tennis champ by sitting at home and watching wimbledon

whoops, I play slightly more each season, but there's not that much of a difference between seasons as far as amount of games goes until extremely recently. Aside from -maybe- season 2 and season 3.
This is my signature. There are many like it, but this one is mine.
HexSCII
Profile Blog Joined October 2011
Canada115 Posts
February 16 2012 02:31 GMT
#82
I think that it isn't about getting to Masters league. Sure you get boosting rights but if you want to play competitive, I would say that the basics are the most important. Proper decision making and good observation as well as learning from your mistakes makes a good player. Not some rank based on how well you can execute your 6 pool
Nexus first or die trying. partinG/MC/oz/Squirtle/Nani/ HerO
Trinion
Profile Joined June 2011
New Zealand48 Posts
February 16 2012 03:11 GMT
#83
On February 16 2012 11:31 HexSCII wrote:
I think that it isn't about getting to Masters league. Sure you get boosting rights but if you want to play competitive, I would say that the basics are the most important. Proper decision making and good observation as well as learning from your mistakes makes a good player. Not some rank based on how well you can execute your 6 pool

^ This haha.

I got from bronze to top 8 masters by doing nothing but 4 gate against all 3 races before the WG nerf.

After the nerf it no longer worked, or at least, didn't work as well. I immediately dropped to low diamond and had to work from there. Now I am at best a solid mid masters player. At least no more 4 gates!

Much more important IMO, to not be a one trick pony but be able to do a variety of builds and composition and react accordingly.
DarKcS
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
Australia1237 Posts
February 16 2012 03:49 GMT
#84
Once I got to diamond and started vsing 10% masters then 90% and 100%, I only had to force myself to play 4-5 games a day (less than 3 hrs) to make it to masters.
Die tomorrow - Live today
Belial88
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States5217 Posts
February 16 2012 03:59 GMT
#85
I wish I could do this, but I get 'fatigued' if I play too many games, or a longer (20 minutes+) intense game.

I know it's strictly on the mind, but I can't seem to play more than a few games a session without getting tired. It's getting better slowly, since I'm pushing myself to play slightly more each session (usually), but it's still a problem that I hope I can fix.


Force yourself to do it.

I mean I take a lot of breaks too, and that's fine. But make sure those breaks are smoke breaks, bio breaks, eating. Not time spent posting on forums or watching tournaments.

Like if I'm eating, sure, I'll watch the GSL. But if I have free time to play, I never post on the forums or watch games. I don't keep very up to date with tournaments, but I know my game is always improving by a lot (my win rate usually sits around 60% according to sc2gears).
How to build a $500 i7-3770K Ultimate Computer:http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?topic_id=392709 ******** 100% Safe Razorless Delid Method! http://www.overclock.net/t/1376206/how-to-delid-your-ivy-bridge-cpu-with-out-a-razor-blade/0_100
Genome852
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States979 Posts
February 16 2012 04:04 GMT
#86
I'd say everyone is capable of getting masters. You do not need very high APM to do well in this game. If you can have a consistent 60 APM with no spam actions that is more than enough for perfect macro. Micro can be trained with a variety of maps.

I never played RTS competitively before SC2, but got into diamond from bronze in the second week of release and have been in master since the league was opened. I used to read TL more than I played the game as well, you don't need to "mass game" to get better if your mechanics are already solid.
JiYan
Profile Blog Joined February 2009
United States3668 Posts
February 16 2012 04:12 GMT
#87
when i made the switch from casual fastest map possible (custom bw game) games to melee 1v1s, my apm was around 40 and i was absolutely terrible. Now I am High Masters with ~150apm.

I believe anyone can obtain masters.
Chutoro
Profile Joined January 2011
New Zealand95 Posts
February 16 2012 04:14 GMT
#88
On February 16 2012 11:01 Belial88 wrote:
Any gamer can with any race. Anyone can if they play deathball Protoss (not a balance whine, i'm just stating that if you turtle a deathball, you need less skill to pull it off to get to masters, especially since lower level people can't pull off the macro or aggression to 'counter' it and low masters is low level, and mech isn't really viable in all of the 3 match-ups and not as hard to deal with as zerg, you might actually need skill to do it in tvz).

For the average person, yea. If you play 2,000 games (not even sure on the exact number, probably less, whatever) you will definitely be masters though, provided you are at least like 17 years old.

Show nested quote +
So here is my plan:...


Dude... your plan is horrible. You aren't getting it.

1. Yes, demuslim is a beast, but you are nowhere near his level, 99% of masters players are seriously like bronze to a diamond compared to him, and you are better off PLAYING.

In fact, when I was diamond, and first realized I 'could' hit masters, I made a vow to stop watching tournaments, stop watching streams, stop posting on TL, stop posting on any forum, stop watching VODs, stop watching day9. Suffice to say, i hit masters almost within a week.

You just have to PLAY. How much time have you spent on just in this thread alone? An hour already? That's easily 2 games. All the time you waste watching stuff, yea you may learn stuff, but you would've learned a LOT more playing. Not to mention, anyone below high masters is at a level of play where you'd just learn way more by playing the game, and learning it for yourself. Plus, you can't do what Demuslim does, he's 'above ladder', he could do some serious troll stuff and get away with it because he's that good. So maybe some of his play is trolling, maybe he does it but doesn't realize it's not viable against an MVP caliber opponent, maybe he does, but either way you are better off PLAYING.

2. You are way too low level to get coaching. All a coach will do is say "yea man just do this build ezpz get masters pay me $20" or "build probes, build pylons". Get a coach once you hit high masters. Or I mean go for it, it's your money, it's only a bit of time. But you really don't need a coach. You just need to know how to be critical of yourself, and understand you macro like total shit. Because unless you are high masters, it's true that you actually macro like total shit. Myself included (mid masters).

3. You want to play. Maybe join a chat channel and ask to play better people than you, but focus more on playing, not joining social groups.

4. You can do whatever builds you want. It's your macro that's a problem.

In short, you need to PLAY more. Get off the forums. Completely disassociate from every tournament, every vod, every pro, every stream. I strongly recommend, that if you want to hit masters, you should not watch any tournaments or anything or even visit reddit or TL (especially reddit).

Just get out there and play dude. Masters really isn't high level at all, and even if it was, you are just holding yourself back by not playing. I guarentee you, you play 2,000 games, you'll easily be masters.


I don't agree with this.

I watch pro streams and tournaments once in a while, but probably 95% of my SC2 time is spent laddering. I have a touch over 700 ladder wins lifetime in 1v1, which (if we assume 50% win rate) probably puts me at around 1450 games played.

I am in Platinum. I would like to say I'm high Platinum, but realistically I think low-mid is more accurate, since I usually struggle to stay consistently in the top 8 in my division. It may be that if I play another 550 games I'll be in Masters, but I very much doubt it. 550 games ago I was in Platinum, around the same level I am now.

Coincidentally(?) I am about the same age as the OP.

While I think all the encouragement the OP has received on this thread has been great, if anything I think posts like this just confirm the OP's point about skill levels. In my experience, reaching Masters is nowhere near as simple as just playing 2000 games. Belial88 says that it was that simple for him, and I have no reason to doubt him (plenty of others on this thread have expressed similar sentiments) so I conclude that his experience of learning SC2 and my experience have been quite different in some fundamental ways, and there are things that came naturally to him that don't to me.
Angel_
Profile Blog Joined December 2011
United States1617 Posts
February 16 2012 04:17 GMT
#89
I believe yes, if you are dedicated enough and put enough effort into learning and practice, you can get into masters. Especially because consistency and mechanics, along with a dedication to just grinding even when you don't want to, are what get you into masters.
Atreides
Profile Joined October 2010
United States2393 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-02-16 04:21:09
February 16 2012 04:17 GMT
#90
Yeah, I think pretty much anyone willing to put in the effort can get Masters. Just some people take more effort than others. One thing is, if getting to masters is your goal I think its easier to get to a certain point (mid-masters) or so by improving game knowledge, decision making, build orders and responses than to just try and brute force improve mechanics/multitasking/speed. Allthough obviously to reach the very top you have to do the latter.

Do no worry or focus about apm at ALL. I am a fairly consistent mid-masters T player and have lower apm than you. 80APM is not keeping you in platinum. 50 effective and efficient average apm is plenty to get to masters in SC2. You just need to have a well thought out game plan where you know exactly what to do in every situation and then just practice execution. For the sake of it being less draining and tiring and to get more games in, I do recommend having a couple very smooth well executed all-ins that you do in certain maps/matchups/situations. (Not every game if you want to keep getting better actually) For example something like:

1-1-1 or 2port banshee all-in (your choice) vs P on Shattered or Metalopolis
Marauder Hellion vs Z on (map of choice)
Reactive all-in off your standard build vs Nexus first.
etc.

At the most 1 "standard" build per map per matchup (probably multiple maps for each build actually)

For a lot of people I think this makes laddering easier and breaks up the intensity. The truth is, after getting my main account to masters more or less legit I got an account to Masters by doing a 2-port all-in every TvP and either marauder hellion or gas first banshee all-in every TvZ. (Also did some shitty hellion marine junk every TvT but its pretty bad I just couldn't bring myself to leave every TvT, had a very low winrate tho)

I have about 1000 wins as T total across two accounts so for what is worth
Janders
Profile Joined June 2011
Mexico222 Posts
February 16 2012 04:22 GMT
#91
the only way to get higher APM is to use more hotkeys and F keys and just FORCE yourself to play faster than usual but try to not forget fundamentals like probes and pylons and keeping money low.(giving your army a thousand move commands is not playing faster) do this a lot and then it will become natural.
started using F keys and rebinded a whole lot of things to make everything faster and now my apm is around 130 from 90ish
:D
citi.zen
Profile Joined April 2009
2509 Posts
February 16 2012 04:39 GMT
#92
On February 16 2012 13:14 Chutoro wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 16 2012 11:01 Belial88 wrote:
Any gamer can with any race. Anyone can if they play deathball Protoss (not a balance whine, i'm just stating that if you turtle a deathball, you need less skill to pull it off to get to masters, especially since lower level people can't pull off the macro or aggression to 'counter' it and low masters is low level, and mech isn't really viable in all of the 3 match-ups and not as hard to deal with as zerg, you might actually need skill to do it in tvz).

For the average person, yea. If you play 2,000 games (not even sure on the exact number, probably less, whatever) you will definitely be masters though, provided you are at least like 17 years old.

So here is my plan:...


Dude... your plan is horrible. You aren't getting it.

1. Yes, demuslim is a beast, but you are nowhere near his level, 99% of masters players are seriously like bronze to a diamond compared to him, and you are better off PLAYING.

In fact, when I was diamond, and first realized I 'could' hit masters, I made a vow to stop watching tournaments, stop watching streams, stop posting on TL, stop posting on any forum, stop watching VODs, stop watching day9. Suffice to say, i hit masters almost within a week.

You just have to PLAY. How much time have you spent on just in this thread alone? An hour already? That's easily 2 games. All the time you waste watching stuff, yea you may learn stuff, but you would've learned a LOT more playing. Not to mention, anyone below high masters is at a level of play where you'd just learn way more by playing the game, and learning it for yourself. Plus, you can't do what Demuslim does, he's 'above ladder', he could do some serious troll stuff and get away with it because he's that good. So maybe some of his play is trolling, maybe he does it but doesn't realize it's not viable against an MVP caliber opponent, maybe he does, but either way you are better off PLAYING.

2. You are way too low level to get coaching. All a coach will do is say "yea man just do this build ezpz get masters pay me $20" or "build probes, build pylons". Get a coach once you hit high masters. Or I mean go for it, it's your money, it's only a bit of time. But you really don't need a coach. You just need to know how to be critical of yourself, and understand you macro like total shit. Because unless you are high masters, it's true that you actually macro like total shit. Myself included (mid masters).

3. You want to play. Maybe join a chat channel and ask to play better people than you, but focus more on playing, not joining social groups.

4. You can do whatever builds you want. It's your macro that's a problem.

In short, you need to PLAY more. Get off the forums. Completely disassociate from every tournament, every vod, every pro, every stream. I strongly recommend, that if you want to hit masters, you should not watch any tournaments or anything or even visit reddit or TL (especially reddit).

Just get out there and play dude. Masters really isn't high level at all, and even if it was, you are just holding yourself back by not playing. I guarentee you, you play 2,000 games, you'll easily be masters.


I don't agree with this.

I watch pro streams and tournaments once in a while, but probably 95% of my SC2 time is spent laddering. I have a touch over 700 ladder wins lifetime in 1v1, which (if we assume 50% win rate) probably puts me at around 1450 games played.

I am in Platinum. I would like to say I'm high Platinum, but realistically I think low-mid is more accurate, since I usually struggle to stay consistently in the top 8 in my division. It may be that if I play another 550 games I'll be in Masters, but I very much doubt it. 550 games ago I was in Platinum, around the same level I am now.

Coincidentally(?) I am about the same age as the OP.

While I think all the encouragement the OP has received on this thread has been great, if anything I think posts like this just confirm the OP's point about skill levels. In my experience, reaching Masters is nowhere near as simple as just playing 2000 games. Belial88 says that it was that simple for him, and I have no reason to doubt him (plenty of others on this thread have expressed similar sentiments) so I conclude that his experience of learning SC2 and my experience have been quite different in some fundamental ways, and there are things that came naturally to him that don't to me.

I agree, people can certainly get "stuck" at any level. Remember, it's not whether you get better in the absolute, but whether you get better relative to other players at your rank. The higher you go the tougher that gets. Eventually you settle at the "appropriate" level, given your reflexes and time to spend on SC2. There is nothing inevitable that this is Master's level. Everyone has different constraints in their life.
Aut viam inveniam, aut faciam.
Belial88
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States5217 Posts
February 16 2012 04:41 GMT
#93
On February 16 2012 13:14 Chutoro wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 16 2012 11:01 Belial88 wrote:
Any gamer can with any race. Anyone can if they play deathball Protoss (not a balance whine, i'm just stating that if you turtle a deathball, you need less skill to pull it off to get to masters, especially since lower level people can't pull off the macro or aggression to 'counter' it and low masters is low level, and mech isn't really viable in all of the 3 match-ups and not as hard to deal with as zerg, you might actually need skill to do it in tvz).

For the average person, yea. If you play 2,000 games (not even sure on the exact number, probably less, whatever) you will definitely be masters though, provided you are at least like 17 years old.

So here is my plan:...


Dude... your plan is horrible. You aren't getting it.

1. Yes, demuslim is a beast, but you are nowhere near his level, 99% of masters players are seriously like bronze to a diamond compared to him, and you are better off PLAYING.

In fact, when I was diamond, and first realized I 'could' hit masters, I made a vow to stop watching tournaments, stop watching streams, stop posting on TL, stop posting on any forum, stop watching VODs, stop watching day9. Suffice to say, i hit masters almost within a week.

You just have to PLAY. How much time have you spent on just in this thread alone? An hour already? That's easily 2 games. All the time you waste watching stuff, yea you may learn stuff, but you would've learned a LOT more playing. Not to mention, anyone below high masters is at a level of play where you'd just learn way more by playing the game, and learning it for yourself. Plus, you can't do what Demuslim does, he's 'above ladder', he could do some serious troll stuff and get away with it because he's that good. So maybe some of his play is trolling, maybe he does it but doesn't realize it's not viable against an MVP caliber opponent, maybe he does, but either way you are better off PLAYING.

2. You are way too low level to get coaching. All a coach will do is say "yea man just do this build ezpz get masters pay me $20" or "build probes, build pylons". Get a coach once you hit high masters. Or I mean go for it, it's your money, it's only a bit of time. But you really don't need a coach. You just need to know how to be critical of yourself, and understand you macro like total shit. Because unless you are high masters, it's true that you actually macro like total shit. Myself included (mid masters).

3. You want to play. Maybe join a chat channel and ask to play better people than you, but focus more on playing, not joining social groups.

4. You can do whatever builds you want. It's your macro that's a problem.

In short, you need to PLAY more. Get off the forums. Completely disassociate from every tournament, every vod, every pro, every stream. I strongly recommend, that if you want to hit masters, you should not watch any tournaments or anything or even visit reddit or TL (especially reddit).

Just get out there and play dude. Masters really isn't high level at all, and even if it was, you are just holding yourself back by not playing. I guarentee you, you play 2,000 games, you'll easily be masters.


I don't agree with this.

I watch pro streams and tournaments once in a while, but probably 95% of my SC2 time is spent laddering. I have a touch over 700 ladder wins lifetime in 1v1, which (if we assume 50% win rate) probably puts me at around 1450 games played.

I am in Platinum. I would like to say I'm high Platinum, but realistically I think low-mid is more accurate, since I usually struggle to stay consistently in the top 8 in my division. It may be that if I play another 550 games I'll be in Masters, but I very much doubt it. 550 games ago I was in Platinum, around the same level I am now.

Coincidentally(?) I am about the same age as the OP.

While I think all the encouragement the OP has received on this thread has been great, if anything I think posts like this just confirm the OP's point about skill levels. In my experience, reaching Masters is nowhere near as simple as just playing 2000 games. Belial88 says that it was that simple for him, and I have no reason to doubt him (plenty of others on this thread have expressed similar sentiments) so I conclude that his experience of learning SC2 and my experience have been quite different in some fundamental ways, and there are things that came naturally to him that don't to me.


There's no such thing as high or low Platinum, due to how the ranking system works. Only the 'top' rank is where points/ranking mean anything, since low level people can be stuck in Plat due to inaccurate MMR, or and 'high' people just being promoted.

I would also argue that if you played instead of watching pros and streams, you would be higher ranked.

It's not exactly a convincing argument when you are saying "Look how successful I am! I a pizza delivery driver!"

Also, I'm pretty sure everyone who's played 2,000 games and is somewhat matured (ie not 13 years old, no handicap) is masters. If the number is wrong, the number is wrong, but you play 10,000 games, you WILL be masters. Someone else can say more accurately what the number is that 99% of people hit masters once having played that many games, but you get my point, and it's not exactly that many games. I'd also hazard that, besides BW experience and such, like 90% of people hit masters in roughly the same number of games.

I also think that over 99% of the people who played BW ICCUP, are at least Masters. That just goes to show that Masters ain't no thing. I'm not saying BW pros, I'm just saying anyone who even played BW. I mean I was bronze at one point, zero RTS history.

Diamond, is definitely something that ANYONE can achieve, even non-gamers. If you are in Plat, that's just lack of games put under your belt. I'm not trying to be insulting, but play a good 1,000 games, you'll be diamond. You aren't far from it as it is anyways.
How to build a $500 i7-3770K Ultimate Computer:http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?topic_id=392709 ******** 100% Safe Razorless Delid Method! http://www.overclock.net/t/1376206/how-to-delid-your-ivy-bridge-cpu-with-out-a-razor-blade/0_100
Quochobao
Profile Joined October 2010
United States350 Posts
February 16 2012 04:43 GMT
#94
As many have pointed out, the key is to ACTIVELY learning.

The difficulty, though, is that not everyone is able to spot their flaws, or do so inefficiently. I am stuck at high diamond, and being able to play only on weekends, I am making the same mistakes over and over without really a clear awareness of what they are and how to fix them.

Hence the importance of a mentor.
Best or nothing.
Belial88
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States5217 Posts
February 16 2012 04:46 GMT
#95
^ Mentor isn't going to help as much as just grinding out 10 hour game days for 2 weeks straight. You'll be masters.
How to build a $500 i7-3770K Ultimate Computer:http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?topic_id=392709 ******** 100% Safe Razorless Delid Method! http://www.overclock.net/t/1376206/how-to-delid-your-ivy-bridge-cpu-with-out-a-razor-blade/0_100
Raambo11
Profile Joined April 2011
United States828 Posts
February 16 2012 04:56 GMT
#96
On February 16 2012 13:46 Belial88 wrote:
^ Mentor isn't going to help as much as just grinding out 10 hour game days for 2 weeks straight. You'll be masters.


Yeah, this is basically it, when I first started I didn't even know what a marine was, and I had played almost no RTS before sc2. Obviously since I knew absolutely nothing, and didn't know about TL, I had to play a ton of games. IMO even if you can do things like watch top koreans which you could not do before, the best way is just grinding a TON of games. I mean just go on ladder and play as much as you can. Try switching up your hotkeys and try to multitask as much as you can and your APM will go up.

TBH Terran is going to require more APM than other races as you go up the leagues, but as long as your playing a decent amount of games it should improve, and its not much of a limiting factor anyways.
Quochobao
Profile Joined October 2010
United States350 Posts
February 16 2012 04:58 GMT
#97
On February 16 2012 13:46 Belial88 wrote:
^ Mentor isn't going to help as much as just grinding out 10 hour game days for 2 weeks straight. You'll be masters.


I may, but it will be an inefficient way of improving.

Best or nothing.
Thaniri
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
1264 Posts
February 16 2012 05:02 GMT
#98
3) Look at Stephano around IPL 3 time. 4 Hours a day, wins IPL 3 over many code s koreans,
Belial88
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States5217 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-02-16 05:06:37
February 16 2012 05:04 GMT
#99
^^ Not really. You aren't going to hit masters significantly quicker in any other way. You're too low level to really be mentored anything better than 'macro better' (not to be offensive, i mean myself included in anyone below high masters).

You just need to grind out some games. The idea that watching hours and hours of starcraft or posting on a low level forum will improve your game significantly is ridiculous.

There's a reason why you never see pros post on forums (even most high masters avoid prolific posting), and you can't argue with someone who's played 5,000 games (as in they will be extremely fucking good).


3) Look at Stephano around IPL 3 time. 4 Hours a day, wins IPL 3 over many code s koreans,


Didn't stephano play wc3 10 hours a day for a few years?

Oh yea... and he plays a lot more than 4 hours a day when practicing.

But even then, yea. 4 hours of actual game time a day on Sc2, every day, you will DEFINITELY be at least high masters within a year. Even if we are going to ignore that Stephano has 1 in a million talent, he just puts in enough hours on ladder, and has put on enough hours (wc3). That, and he's got a teamhouse.

I mean, if you were to say "Hey, should I ladder, or should I play in a competitive team house?" the answer is obvious. But that's not exactly a realistic choice here.
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Fencar
Profile Blog Joined August 2011
United States2694 Posts
February 16 2012 05:27 GMT
#100
On February 16 2012 14:04 Belial88 wrote:
^^ Not really. You aren't going to hit masters significantly quicker in any other way. You're too low level to really be mentored anything better than 'macro better' (not to be offensive, i mean myself included in anyone below high masters).

You just need to grind out some games. The idea that watching hours and hours of starcraft or posting on a low level forum will improve your game significantly is ridiculous.

There's a reason why you never see pros post on forums (even most high masters avoid prolific posting), and you can't argue with someone who's played 5,000 games (as in they will be extremely fucking good).

Show nested quote +

3) Look at Stephano around IPL 3 time. 4 Hours a day, wins IPL 3 over many code s koreans,


Didn't stephano play wc3 10 hours a day for a few years?

Oh yea... and he plays a lot more than 4 hours a day when practicing.

But even then, yea. 4 hours of actual game time a day on Sc2, every day, you will DEFINITELY be at least high masters within a year. Even if we are going to ignore that Stephano has 1 in a million talent, he just puts in enough hours on ladder, and has put on enough hours (wc3). That, and he's got a teamhouse.

I mean, if you were to say "Hey, should I ladder, or should I play in a competitive team house?" the answer is obvious. But that's not exactly a realistic choice here.

I agree that if you grind out a ton of ladder games you will go up in rank faster than if you watch a lot of VOD's and streams, but it won't be as efficient.

The reason for this is, by watching people that have a similar play style, you can learn how to defeat all sorts of all-in's, how to play in a long macro game, and, to a lesser extent, how you can deal with crazy situations in that one in one hundred base race.
This is my signature. There are many like it, but this one is mine.
LeakyBucket
Profile Joined June 2011
Canada76 Posts
February 16 2012 05:39 GMT
#101
This thread makes me feel bad, I have roughly 1300 1v1 wins and i'm diamond
Belial88
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States5217 Posts
February 16 2012 05:40 GMT
#102
I don't know why you keep harping on 'efficient'. The fastest way to get better up to high masters is to hash out more games. Playing custom games with people better than you that you can talk to is helpful, and posting the games you can't understand your loss on the forums is helpful, but the most 'efficient' way to get better is to, quite simply, play more.

Really, anyone who's played 3k games is just going to be a beast, and at least mid-masters.

I assure you, if you play a bunch of games, you will figure out on your own how to beat all-ins, how to play a macro game, and how to deal with crazy situations. Watching VODs and tournaments and posting on the forum, only slows you down. You need to play.

There's a reason why bronzes who have watched every pro game can't get out of bronze. It's strictly and only because they don't play enough. In the big picture, watching tournament games won't help your game.
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trias_e
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States520 Posts
February 16 2012 05:47 GMT
#103

Really, anyone who's played 3k games is just going to be a beast, and at least mid-masters.


I have 1.5k wins, 3k played, and played a shitton in the beta (1k games played or so in total). Peaked at top diamond and could never break through. I try hard when I play, put effort into my builds and understanding the game, and don't have any handicaps that I know of. I am older and have zero RTS experience before SC2. Top of diamond has been an absolute brick wall for me. Players that I used to beat easily got into masters with less games played. I just stopped improving for some reason. Just playing games doesn't work for everyone.
SgtCoDFish
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
United Kingdom1520 Posts
February 16 2012 05:55 GMT
#104
I've managed to coach a RL friend of mine from bronze to plat with just a couple hours of instruction every week by me standing behind him and telling him what is important to focus on. E.g. I'll say "have you injected?" or "you didn't hotkey your army" or "is it time to expand?" and he responds. He improved (and is improving) really quickly. I'm not good (diamond from season 1, got masters this season) and I'm not a very good teacher. My point?

I think any given person who is able-bodied and able-minded can reach masters if they invest enough time into the game. The thing is, the amount of time you need to invest varies massively from person to person, and depends on lots of things like whether you have help from a friend or coach, "natural talent", age, the time you put into studying replays and streams, etc. This is where the problem lies I think for some people: some 40yo guy who's completely new to rts and is going at it alone might take a very long time to even get out of bronze (and he might not have the free time available to actually ever get to masters), whereas a 19yo university student with a real life coach and who watches a lot of pro streams can get there much quicker.

In other words: anyone can get masters given enough time, but not everyone has enough time to get masters.
GhostFall
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
United States830 Posts
February 16 2012 06:01 GMT
#105
Plateau's are actually really common.

The way to break past is pretty unintuitive and you have to fight against risk/reward.

Basically, if you ever plateau its because you're getting too comfortable doing your thing. You need to do some other style of play. Most likely you will lose tons of a games and you might even drop a division. But then you will improve with that style again, and as you approach your goal, you'll be able to break past it easier.
caneras
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
433 Posts
February 16 2012 06:13 GMT
#106
I started out in Bronze and reached Diamond playing out on a touchpad in Season 1 and reached Masters going into Season 3. That being said, I don't think I could do the same now.

I do think that anyone can get to Master League eventually. Some people are naturally better at the game than others, but I think with time, any player can climb the ladder and reach the higher leagues. Especially with numerous games a day and a good mind set and work ethic going into play sessions, a player can improve rapidly.

The biggest problem with players that are just starting to play or just started to play seriously with the goal of reaching Diamond or Master League is that they have to improve more rapidly than anyone. As I said before, I started playing on release day, and I was awful. I started out in Bronze, but my skill at Starcraft 2 was not that far from the majority of players. To reach Silver, I only had to improve slightly, which came with playing a lot of games. To reach Diamond, I only had to become decent mechanically and know a few builds.

For a player to climb the ranks today, he has to improve much more quickly than I did when I started climbing the ladder. He, or she, has to make up for lost time. The game is old enough to where a lot of players are established in their leagues and are slowly, but steadily improving. A new player has to work harder and improve at a quicker rate than the much larger number of players that have been playing for awhile.

Reading your OP, I know you've played since Season 1. Regardless of when you start, the best way to climb the ranks in Starcraft 2, or any similar system, requires you to improve at a faster rate than the general trend. The best way to do that is to make effective use of play time. That being said, good luck with whatever your ambitions end up being in SC2!

Hopefully my explanation made sense.
Chairman Ray
Profile Blog Joined December 2009
United States11903 Posts
February 16 2012 06:29 GMT
#107
Always look for something to improve in every game you play, win or lose. If you are just playing without reviewing your game, you may be improving your proficiency and muscle memory, but that's about it. Try to mix up your play as well. This will make you lose a lot more games when compared to doing the same build every single game, but in the end, you'll learn a lot better.
Drowsy
Profile Blog Joined November 2005
United States4876 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-02-16 07:34:41
February 16 2012 07:32 GMT
#108
On February 16 2012 11:01 Belial88 wrote:

Just get out there and play dude. Masters really isn't high level at all, and even if it was, you are just holding yourself back by not playing. I guarentee you, you play 2,000 games, you'll easily be masters.


This is the best way to get to masters. Pick 1 good standard build for each matchup and do it exclusively, adjusting if there's a big balance patch or meta shift.
And if you do manage to play 2000 games and find yourself still short of masters, I would try another game, the strategic thinking required by sc2 is too much. Try tic tac toe or something.
Our Protoss, Who art in Aiur HongUn be Thy name; Thy stalker come, Thy will be blunk, on ladder as it is in Micro Tourny. Give us this win in our daily ladder, and forgive us our cheeses, As we forgive those who play zerg against us.
KimJongChill
Profile Joined January 2011
United States6429 Posts
February 16 2012 07:43 GMT
#109
I started bronze and got to diamond pretty quickly. Then I stayed in diamond for five seasons, and got promoted 40 games into season 6, so I think that with enough dedication, anyone can be masters. I've never been good at video-games, and before the only stuff I played were mmos or like shooting games. Good luck man, try to find some practice groups online, makes it a lot more fun!
MMA: U realise MMA: Most of my army EgIdra: fuck off MMA: Killed my orbital MMA: LOL MMA: just saying MMA: u werent loss
jayaiwhy
Profile Blog Joined February 2012
Australia88 Posts
February 16 2012 07:47 GMT
#110
I had no previous RTS experience, and I started off as Bronze, now I'm in Masters ^^

I think if you put some effort, it's possible...
Nihilnovi
Profile Joined May 2010
Sweden696 Posts
February 16 2012 08:21 GMT
#111
I would definetely say there is natural sc2 talent, Im masters on two accounts playing toss and terran respectively and always been master on both since the get-go. Apm is hardly a limiting factor as long as you are above 50 you can go on the verge of gm level.
ZaplinG
Profile Blog Joined February 2005
United States3818 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-02-16 08:33:11
February 16 2012 08:32 GMT
#112
more apm only means you have more opportunities to make plays. if you waste those opportunities, then having more APM doesnt matter.

that being said, I still think there is a threshold that you have to peak before you can compete competitively. For sc/bw, that peak was 150-200 or so. For sc2, its much lower since everything is automated... something like 100-120 is completely acceptable
Don't believe the florist when he tells you that the roses are free
Rowrin
Profile Joined September 2011
United States280 Posts
February 16 2012 08:33 GMT
#113
Before starcraft I had played rts's, but I was always that terrible person who thought an rts was sim city with tanks and I'd just make static D until i felt safe, then mass units etc. . . .

Aaaanyway, started playing starcraft broodwar 2 months before starcraft 2 was released cause my friends shunned me for not knowing what starcraft was. (prior to that I only remember seeing starcraft when my cousin would babysit me when i was little).

Placed into silver, was there for like 30 games, learned some strategies online, youtube videos, stuff like that, was gold for like 8 games, then plat for like 100 games. Ended up making diamond a few weeks before master's league was opened for the first time and that was the end of season one. Didn't make masters till midway through season 2.

so now directly responding to the OP:

When I was in diamond / early masters my apm wasn't great, I was basically 40-50 average apm diamond, 50-60 average apm masters. Currently I'm around 90-100 average apm. I think that most ppl try to hit a weird goal of 100+ apm as soon as possible, when really you need just enough to macro constantly and to watch your army. If you are able to keep producing units, build depots/pylons/lords while looking at your army 90% of the time you should be in diamond. This takes about 40-50 average actions per minute. Where all the other #'s come from is how well you control your army while you macro. Droping, maintaining map control, denying creep, harassing, etc. Most of this I think is just practice and getting your figures to move simply at a thought. For example, when someone types a word like "this" I dont think many ppl think "ok. . . T, then H, then I then S . . . " I just think that this is the word i want to type and instictivly, after much experience of typing, words just flow. Same in starcraft. If you practice enough, some actions that require several steps should become merged into one thought that your hands just carry out and eventually you get faster.

now can anyone get to masters? It isn't easy, but if you have the right motivation it isn't too hard. You have to want to challenge yourself and I think have the right mindset. For example, when you lose you cant say things like "oh what my opponent did was just stupid" You have to accept each lose as your fault (witihout being overly critical) and correct mistakes.
Belial88
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States5217 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-02-16 08:35:54
February 16 2012 08:34 GMT
#114
I don't think people realize that low masters is just like diamond. The difference between mid masters and high masters is like diamond to silver, literally high masters can offrace against mid masters and crush them 5 out of 5. Low masters, they can't even touch high masters. That's like catz or destiny or tyler or tlo or any number of foreigner pros, competing against the likes of people who didn't play bw and started in bronze.

If you can get diamond, masters is just a matter of games played.

Of course every non-masters will say masters is impossible, and every masters will tell you it's easy, but a lot of TL staff and pros and such have said masters is basic macro and quite attainable.

Just have some patience. If you've ever been promoted, with 2k games or so you'll be masters.
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Sergio1992
Profile Blog Joined October 2011
Italy522 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-02-16 09:01:10
February 16 2012 09:00 GMT
#115
On February 16 2012 17:34 Belial88 wrote:
I don't think people realize that low masters is just like diamond. The difference between mid masters and high masters is like diamond to silver, literally high masters can offrace against mid masters and crush them 5 out of 5. Low masters, they can't even touch high masters. That's like catz or destiny or tyler or tlo or any number of foreigner pros, competing against the likes of people who didn't play bw and started in bronze.

If you can get diamond, masters is just a matter of games played.

Of course every non-masters will say masters is impossible, and every masters will tell you it's easy, but a lot of TL staff and pros and such have said masters is basic macro and quite attainable.

Just have some patience. If you've ever been promoted, with 2k games or so you'll be masters.

thanks, you kinda relieved me with your words. A shame that I could not reach master within 60 games and I quit sc2, because of my really bad connection.
Lasbike
Profile Joined January 2011
France2888 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-02-16 09:15:55
February 16 2012 09:12 GMT
#116
On February 16 2012 14:47 trias_e wrote:
I have 1.5k wins, 3k played, and played a shitton in the beta (1k games played or so in total). Peaked at top diamond and could never break through. I try hard when I play, put effort into my builds and understanding the game, and don't have any handicaps that I know of. I am older and have zero RTS experience before SC2. Top of diamond has been an absolute brick wall for me. Players that I used to beat easily got into masters with less games played. I just stopped improving for some reason. Just playing games doesn't work for everyone.


Thank god, exactly like me.

I just can't get into master league. (PS : I'm EU, high diamond 4 times in a row)
Jumonji
Profile Joined May 2011
France60 Posts
February 16 2012 09:13 GMT
#117
http://eu.battle.net/sc2/en/profile/267391/1/uTsJumonji/

That's my profile, never played rts before (except of some casually played with only mouse games) took me five season to get to master. Don't lost hope, keep playing at your rate. I'm sure everyone can be master , believe me i'm a console player since like 18 y and Pc player since 5 ^^
Kanaz
Profile Joined May 2010
Denmark658 Posts
February 16 2012 09:18 GMT
#118
I started playinc sc2 back in the beta, never played any RTS on any 'high' level.
Basicly after 2 months of grinding games i got to the highest league (Plat, back then) and then diamond came and i got insta promoted. Same goes when masters come. Basicly i havent been playing much the last 6 months. Maybe 100 games in total - which leads to my acc got reset and i had to play 5 placement games again.
I won all of them, even tho i was really rusty, and got placed in diamond.
I got all back that i lost in those 6 months in 4 days and got promoted to masters again right before ladder lock.
So to sum up, it's possible for everybody to get in masters i'd say, it's really about basic skills - Macro, scout, builds.
I used 3 builds in those 3 days, one for each race. Master a build against every race and you will hammer through the ladder eventually.
Crakalaka
Profile Joined January 2012
United States31 Posts
February 16 2012 09:21 GMT
#119
Games played(average game:10 minutes) maximum is 6 per hour, so that means you can only achieve 12 games per 2 hous, 18 per 3(if you're practicing).

If you've played 2000+ games, that means you've invested about 2000x10,0=20,000 hours if I did the math correctly.
If you've invested 20,000 hours in playing, you must be aware of your surroundings by now. If not, you will forever stay a bad player because that many hours invested in playing is just insane and should make any gamer golden. You must take advantage of the time you're apparently wasting.
Oboeman
Profile Joined January 2011
Canada3980 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-02-16 09:24:22
February 16 2012 09:22 GMT
#120
With hard work and a positive attitude I feel like anyone should be able to make it.

I'm in masters with pretty damn low apm. I'm slow. I don't move fast. I hear a lot of gold to plat players saying they can't advance because they are too slow, yet they have higher apm than I do. You have to be reasonably quick, but it's still mostly a game of the brain, and usually it's your thoughts that are slowing you down, not your hands. If you can internalize most of your decisions, your hands perform the actions themselves, and your brainpower is free to think about other things.

It's important to try to learn, not just grind games blindly, and you'll get there a lot faster if more of your focus is on macro rather than unit composition. Instead of thinking about whether you should have made roaches or baneling, think about when you get that next overlord, or how quickly you can spend your larva.

The strategy stuff kind of comes into place on its own, but the macro needs work.

Most importantly, there is no such thing as imbalance. If you think about imbalance you are admitting defeat, rather than searching for a way to move forward.
Jumonji
Profile Joined May 2011
France60 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-02-16 09:27:10
February 16 2012 09:24 GMT
#121
Not 20 000 hours its 20 000 minute so 20 000/60 something like 333 hours you divide by 1.30 for sc seconds, that is like 250 hours so 10 complete day playing starcraft = 30 complete afternoon playing intensive.
Suikakuju
Profile Joined July 2010
Germany238 Posts
February 16 2012 09:28 GMT
#122
Hey,

I have like 2678 League wins and I am still in Diamond. Started with season 1 (Good old times when Diamond was the best league) and is still the same in season 6. I really feel like hittin a wall aswell, I mean being in the same league for so long makes you think you reached the end of the line

But for your part I would say that there is still room to improve, I mean if you started in bronze and are now high plat. You see your progress in carrier window and should know that you can do it.
Laugh and the world laughs with you. Weep and you weep alone.
Host-
Profile Joined December 2010
New Zealand459 Posts
February 16 2012 09:41 GMT
#123
I think it comes down to how much time you can put into playing sc2 or really any game. Some people will have a natural talent, which will allow them to fly up the ladder, where as others will have to put in hours and hours of practice to get to where they want to be.

There are some scenarios where someone won't be able to get masters, assuming that theres nothing "wrong" with them, anyone should be able to.
dream-_-
Profile Blog Joined April 2006
United States1857 Posts
February 16 2012 09:42 GMT
#124
Here is a little bit of quick information from 10 years of serious BW play.

First of all, don't listen to what anyone says is the "normal" amount of time to advance in the ranks. The amount of variables that come into play here is just too absurd to even begin to name. If you still feel like you are progressing slowly, try to evaluate the way you are training. Chances are, it is not because of your lack of natural talent.

Second, yes ability does have something to do with your overall skill, just as ability has something to do with your overall ability in anything you do. However, I am quite confident in saying that almost anyone can make grand master, and if you are here on the forums having an intelligent conversation, you are one of those people.

Anything after that is just how much time and effort you want to put into this game, and how serious you want to take it.
LF9
Profile Joined November 2009
United States537 Posts
February 16 2012 09:44 GMT
#125
It's a LOT easier to be Masters if you were masters when it was first introduced, and kept playing. Starting and moving up to Masters is insanely harder because the skill level keeps increasing, so the people who are in platinum are at the same level the people who are in masters now were at when they got to masters most likely, and dont realize that the lower leagues are getting better as the overall skill keeps increasing. I have a GM account on the korea server, and I have an alternate in NA and it's a struggle for me to even get it to masters. The playstyle is different on every server, and different in every league. You might be in a league where everyone all ins, then get promoted and almost every game the opponent wants to play a macro game, then you get promoted again and everyone all ins, but with 10x more refinement and efficiency, and then get promoted again and its back to facing all macro players, etc. And this also depends on what server you are on. On TW/KR, I would say no, not just anyone can get to masters. On NA, I would say the same also, because in general it is the most populous server and it's just too hard to learn to play on because the way people play on NA varies SO much that you'll never really learn how to play each matchup properly since you'll never run into two people of the same race who play the matchup the same. Other servers it's a lot easier (in my personal experience), except for China, I don't have an account on CN so I don't know.

Also, there are some myths about Starcraft2 that are NOT true. "Anyone can get to x level if you just keep playing". This just isn't true. There IS a level of natural talent involved. I would say RTS games are 50% natural talent, and 50% practice/dedication. Both are necessary. If you don't have "it", you will never get to the highest level. But if you are a very talented RTS player, you still won't be any good without mass games and practice, dedication, and understanding. You have to know the game to know what to do and how to win, and you have to understand the game very well to be fast. Speed comes from having played a lot of games. If you've played 20k games of a particular RTS, you are likely going to be very used to the interface and very quick to get the necessary things done without actually being "fast". You just know what needs to be done and when and you do it. As for the whole "if you aren't masters, your mechanics are bad". Also not true. Learning timings is a VERY big thing. So many players, probably half of the players in Diamond and Platinum, have master level macro and mechanics, and simply have NO idea when they are supposed to attack. I've seen it. I've beaten SO many people at that level and watched to replay to find that they were ahead for a pretty good sized window, but just didn't attack or pressure, instead just kept macroing and I ended up beating them after a big battle and remaxing. You have to play a lot and learn when people can have certain things and in what amount, and have an idea of when you are strong vs when you are weak. I win plenty of PvZs with 2 bases to the Zerg's 4 just because I stayed on 2 saturated base for a bit and massed up an army, and hit right as their 4th was finishing. If you have good mechanics and aren't improving, watch all of your loss replays and look for windows where you could have attacked, or where you could have stopped making workers and not expanded and added an extra rax or gate etc. and massed up for a minute or so and attacked for the kill. If you have good macro and keep getting killed by timing attacks, same thing. Watch loss replays and look at when you got killed and realize that you gotta keep an eye on what they have while macroing so you don't get killed just because you weren't building units while you were droning up.

My 2 cents.
MannerMan
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
371 Posts
February 16 2012 09:50 GMT
#126
I started at gold in August and got promoted to Masters at the beginning of the latest season after about 700 games.

I'd say anybody with 10 hours/wk toward sc2 and an IQ over 120 can be masters.
robih
Profile Joined September 2010
Austria1086 Posts
February 16 2012 09:52 GMT
#127
Also, there are some myths about Starcraft2 that are NOT true. "Anyone can get to x level if you just keep playing". This just isn't true. There IS a level of natural talent involved. I would say RTS games are 50% natural talent, and 50% practice/dedication.


i agree to some extent, but masters really isnt something special.
there is such a huuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuge difference between low master and high master.
and tbh low master is nothing special and the players are still terrible.
i'm like rank 25-50 master on EU and i'm nowhere near good.
MelodyBW
Profile Joined November 2011
Ukraine154 Posts
February 16 2012 09:53 GMT
#128
play using your brain, 2-3 hours a day, get out, do sports. develop your body along your mind
Douillos
Profile Joined May 2010
France3195 Posts
February 16 2012 09:53 GMT
#129
On February 16 2012 03:34 terrantosaur wrote:
I have questions about what is realistically achievable in terms of improving at SC2.

I’d never played RTS games before SC2 was released so came to the game as a genuine noob. I am 38 years old and have a full time job + other responsibilities that mean I cannot play nearly as much SC2 as I’d like. I work in finance (boo) and I have never actually met anyone who plays SC2! This means that I can’t swap war stories/strategies with mates. Essentially I have to improve in isolation (and with the invaluable help of TL). I do have a track record of being ok at things when I can devote time to them. I have represented my country in two different sports (neither of which involved a computer alas..) so I am not without coordination (although I'd like more please :-)). My experience with other pursuits suggests that, with enough application and a little bit of ability, you can achieve your goals. However my experience in terms of ‘rate of improvement’ with SC2 suggests that my view may be wrong.

I’d like to get really good at SC2 (by this I mean I’d like to be competitive at Masters level) BUT, although I do try to devote all my spare time to it, I just don’t have time to spend more than say 3 hours a day (some of which will be spent watching pro games as opposed to playing). Here is my history:

Season 1 – started in bronze, got to Rank 1 Silver.

Seasons 2&3 – high Gold.

Seasons 4&5 – high Platinum.

I am now ranked 1 in my Platinum league. I play Terran on the EU server and my APM is maybe 80 average (but is very variable – there are moments when it hits 300 and moments when it is 0). I read the forums: many people just seem to ‘be’ Masters. Ie they just play the game and instantly achieve this sort of level (don’t ask me how). Almost all of the top players in the world are under 30 – let alone nearer 40 – so perhaps age also acts as a barrier to improvement, especially if you come to RTS gaming ‘late’.

So to my questions:

1) Does this (slow) rate of progress indicate that I have roughly ‘found my level’? Ie I will be high Plat/low Diamond maybe but not much better.

2) Will I be naturally capped by my low APM? Is APM like IQ ie it doesn’t really change that much over time. Or can anyone provide examples of how there APM has improved markedly?

3) Are there people in the Masters league who don’t have to practise that much to be that good? Ie is there such a thing as ‘natural talent’ in SC2 or is it basically application?

My practice at the moment consists of laddering and watching professional games. I do not have partners to play with and I’ve never had coaching. I am sure it is fair to say that both would benefit me but can anyone say they’ve improved dramatically as a result of either/both? If so, are these people who actually have a sh*tload more time to play than I do? Ie might I be better just carrying on laddering until I win the lottery and can play full time?

I wasn't sure a 'replay' was necessary for these sorts of questions. Happy to provide if necessary.

Simon



First things first, don't let yourself get demotivated by the slow learning curve of the game. Im 25 and also have a lot of obligations, and have felt very undermined being 5 seasons in diamond (same objective as you, but never seeming to get closer was hard when you put a lot of effort in it). But the feeling i got yesterday at 7 am (before going to work ^^) of finally getting into masters was so fucking worth it!

I will answer your questions gladly:
1) I dont believe that you have no progress ahead of you. As everyone you hit skill barriers or plateau's that are very hard to overcome. I have tried a lot of different things to overcome them, stop playing for a few days often helps, watching you replays to determine your main problem and then working on that only for the 10 + next games. the truth is, it's a little bit of everything that gets you past it, and realistically it can take some time...

2) APM requires practice, but i do believe that it is the only thing that can really differ between people. My opinion is there is an APM cap that you cant overcome. You can train micro, lean the game like you would chess, but the handicap factor is always APM.

3) First of all there a lot of people in masters who are in masters and who really just got there by cheesing/all in-ing. But if you want to have a real masters macro/micro skill, with proper game decisions etc. then you better keep your game up to pace, and always be aware of the meta game etc. Or maybe I think to highly of masters? Really it's like in all domains, you have players who have no need to train and have a natural talent at sc2, but if they are not training then they are stupid coz they could be top masters and being competetive in tourney's etc. But for most people, keeping your masters lvl if you ladder actively is definitily training worth.

As for my advice to get better, I think a lot has been said in a lot of threads but here are the bottom line:
- If you have trouble boosting your APM, play MECH. It gets the game into a a different feeling which is really interesting and less hectic.
- Learn one Build order and perfect it: get those timings down, get those supply depots at the right time. Do it 10000000 times and then you will be ready to start moving around with it. As your terran id say 1 rax FE is a good way to go (it works in all match ups). It will help your scouting a lot as you will be exposed to cheese.
- Find training partners: I really recommend you search for a training partner/ team / gaming channel . go on the teamliquid channel, try other ones depending on your country. And play with other people! Do BoX games instead of single games will help ask yourself questions like " what kind of opponent is this?" etc. which will come in handy and give you that READ-ing skill that you need in tourneys.
- Watch your replays, and analyze them! there is a whole thread about that, and even a day 9 if I recall... So check those out!

hope i could help out,

All the best and remember, no gg no skill!

GL HF !!
Look a giraffe! Look a fist!!
VoO
Profile Blog Joined June 2011
Germany278 Posts
February 16 2012 10:05 GMT
#130
Learn macro, get Master. Never even analyzed one of my replays, just played, so easy. Took me 3 months, though I'm a hardcore gamer and had experience in BW. SC2 has no difficult mechanics, so everyone can be Master or even Grandmaster if he have enough time at hand.
♥ 김택용 ♥Casual Dwarf Fortress Progamer
Micket
Profile Joined April 2011
United Kingdom2163 Posts
February 16 2012 10:08 GMT
#131
Theoretically no, realistically yes. Why no? If only 5% of people can be in masters, and that 5% are all better than you, and are more talented and improve faster, you won't reach masters.

Realistically, this won't happen, so you can.
Operations
Profile Joined February 2012
115 Posts
February 16 2012 10:08 GMT
#132
There are a lot of masters who were d+ or c- in iccup. so yea anyone can do it IMO
gplayer
Profile Joined March 2011
Romania106 Posts
February 16 2012 10:13 GMT
#133
I would say that anyone with a passion for PC games can be in masters.
OP, I believe you can get into masters by doing some simple things:
- keep playing
- keep watching vods, try to do the standard builds that the pros do
- when you loose watch the replay, see what was really going on/what you thought was going on
- mix in some all ins/cheese every now and then to spice things up (even if they don't work out); playing just standard is pretty boring after a while
It takes time, as there are a lot of things you have to learn, the brain must process them at night, but it's not like it's only fun when you get there, it's fun all the way there too.
I would avoid coaching as you know... $.
I couldn't give any advice about being in a team or having someone to talk to about sc2 as I'm in the same position as you.
galzohar
Profile Joined November 2010
Israel100 Posts
February 16 2012 10:35 GMT
#134
I think one who has basic motor skills and hand-eye coordination and is not stupid should be able to make it given enough practice. Granted, some would take a lot more practice than others - For example, I'm pretty decent with a mouse and keyboard, way above the average person and probably even gamer, and am definitely not stupid, but have been diamond since I started playing (after the few games it took to get from plat to diamond, since you couldn't start at diamond). I just don't practice enough to get to master's.

However, if someone just can't deal with a mouse and keyboard the way a Starcraft 2 master player needs to be able to, or just can't for the life of him understand the game no matter how much he plays and how much it is explained to him, he'll simply never be master's. Just like when I watch a progamer play and say I'll never be able to reach these speeds no matter how much I play, some friends of mine would watch me play with my 60-80 APM and say they could never reach those speeds (though for them, they might actually be able to if they actually try, since let's face it, 60-80 APM is very low).
Jumonji
Profile Joined May 2011
France60 Posts
February 16 2012 10:53 GMT
#135
I agree with the guy saying that Low Master and High Master are really different level. As a Low Master you are just like a top diamond macro player, you just make less mistake, and have some of the master micro tricks.

But when i'm playing with top master of my team, or GM (utsmesh) i'm feeling like a child football team playing against Fc Barcelone.

You begin really have the level of you league when , no matter what , you just can't loose against the league above. Even against a cheese or anything
cutler
Profile Joined March 2010
Germany609 Posts
February 16 2012 10:58 GMT
#136
its difficult to get into Masters on EU as a Terran unless you have pretty good build picks and luck.
I got into Gold this season and get crushed pretty hard cause everone has well shaped builds.

I used 3 Rax build to get out of bronze and silver. Now i do an aggressive 1-1-1 Build. I play 3 hours daily at least. Competition got a lot harder on ladder.

Just enjoy Starcraft2...getting into an higher league shouldnt be your main goal.

And to all the people saying that it is totally easy. Do me a favor and try it again nowadays. Post me your replays please.
Wrathsc2
Profile Joined March 2011
United States2025 Posts
February 16 2012 11:06 GMT
#137
Anyone can make it with dedication. That talent talk is bullshit. Talent can sure help, but dedication is all that matters.
A marine walks into a bar and asks, "Wheres the counter?"
padfoota
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
Taiwan1571 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-02-16 11:13:56
February 16 2012 11:13 GMT
#138
not the korean masters no.... T_T
Stop procrastinating
Oshuy
Profile Joined September 2011
Netherlands529 Posts
February 16 2012 11:14 GMT
#139
I'd say anybody with 10 hours/wk toward sc2 and an IQ over 120 can be masters.


Anyone can, but if everyone tries only 2% will succeed.

I would agree though, that as long as there are people (like quite a few in this thread) who entered and stay in master with only 2/3 games a day, your statement holds. Those will probably drop out of masters if the number of people "really trying" increases
Coooot
D4V3Z02
Profile Joined April 2011
Germany693 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-02-16 11:17:36
February 16 2012 11:17 GMT
#140
No, only 2%-200 of a ladderregion can be masters.
http://www.twitch.tv/d4v3z02 all your base are belong to overlord
MVTaylor
Profile Blog Joined October 2011
United Kingdom2893 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-02-16 11:24:52
February 16 2012 11:18 GMT
#141
As someone who has never played a competitive RTS until buying SC2 six months ago then yes, yes you can.

Got placed in Silver, ended first season top of gold, ended second season top of diamond, ended third season top of diamond, fourth season placement match loss -> in to masters.

And I am fucking TERRIBLE at this game.

As a Terran player here's my advice...

Get a build for each match up that works, is fairly decent, has some room for variation, has economy and hits a STRONG mid game timing push, maybe with some earlier harrasment that isn't terrible to transition out of.

Once you work out how to react based on scouting info and still manage to hit your timing and steamroll them you feel like a god.

As an example in every TvP I'll go 1 rax reaper expo and then hit a timing with first two medivacs and stim. Easily transitions to taking a third, getting upgrades and then grabbing ghosts or vikings depending on their tech path.

EDIT: And your APM is higher than mine
@followMVT
Douillos
Profile Joined May 2010
France3195 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-02-16 11:25:45
February 16 2012 11:24 GMT
#142
On February 16 2012 12:41 NA.Tiberius wrote:
Table of Contents



Learning Barriers

The first thing I would like to touch upon is the concept of learning barriers. During the learning process, it is imperative that you have the knowledge necessary to identify and remove any barriers that are blocking your path to progression.

This may sound simple, but believe it or not, many people have hit a learning barrier without even knowing that it is there. A common misconception is that when you stop progressing, it means you have reached your peak performance. This is absolutely not the case.

There are a few things you can do to avoid hitting learning blocks, but it is most important to understand that they are there. As soon as you are aware of what is hindering your progress, you can easily kick its ass out of your path to excellence.

A commonly heard of learning barrier is called ‘ladder anxiety.’ I can attest to the existence of this because I used to get it. I’m no psychologist, but my guess is that it is caused by the competitive nature of laddering combined with preexisting anxiety. Your brain simply uses any excuse it can to convince you out of clicking that button.

There are much more subtle barriers that one can encounter, though. Maybe someone gave you advice that isn’t actually helpful for you personally. This can happen by following generalized advice such as, “just play a lot of ladder games and you will eventually get better.” You can take this advice, play four hours a day for two weeks, and not experience a large amount of progress at all.

This is because learning optimally is never that simple. A rule of thumb is to never follow simple or generalized advice. There is much more to be said on this topic, but for the sake of convenience I will end by reiterating the most important point.

The key to continuous improvement is to identify and eliminate potential learning barriers.

Just a disclaimer: It is a basic fact that you won’t improve without playing a lot. My point is that knowing how to maximize your practice while playing is equally as important as just numbly grinding out games.




Check out this thread in the strategy forum.

link: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=312416
Look a giraffe! Look a fist!!
ElPeque.fogata
Profile Joined May 2010
Uruguay462 Posts
February 16 2012 12:56 GMT
#143
You should be able to get to masters .

Masters still counts as "casual" gaming.

No need for crisp timmings.
No need for very consistent macro. You can still forget injects or get supply blocked and win.
No need to have too good control. You can still put your whole army in a single hotkey.

gl!
GribStream.com - Historical Weather Forecast API - https://gribstream.com/
Douillos
Profile Joined May 2010
France3195 Posts
February 16 2012 13:03 GMT
#144
On February 16 2012 21:56 ElPeque.fogata wrote:
You should be able to get to masters .

Masters still counts as "casual" gaming.

No need for crisp timmings.
No need for very consistent macro. You can still forget injects or get supply blocked and win.
No need to have too good control. You can still put your whole army in a single hotkey.

gl!


Masters casual? NA Server huh?
Look a giraffe! Look a fist!!
human_ko
Profile Joined July 2010
Russian Federation676 Posts
February 16 2012 13:04 GMT
#145
low-mid masters is not good players, high masters like 1200 pts is smth not anyone can achieve. so its not hard to get low masters
WOrd, yo.
Magus.421
Profile Joined November 2011
France159 Posts
February 16 2012 13:13 GMT
#146
I'm master on EU serveur (800 points at season 5). I play only 1 or 2 hours in the week, and more the week end. But i play a lot in 2v2 with a friend. I got 162 games for the season 5 in 1v1.

You don't have to be a very big gamer to reach the master league. But you have to be clever and you have to known what aspect of your game you must improve.
No whine, just play.
Shizanu
Profile Joined September 2010
Germany44 Posts
February 16 2012 13:26 GMT
#147
Most people that "are just masters" are 16+, have played computer games for 10+ years of their lives (at least some of those online, even if not competitive) and played a lot of strategy games for even longer (this also includes boardgames!).

This means they are used to thinking strategically and used to thinking fast. Thats actually the part, that is imo most difficult to catch up on. The physical part necessary to get into master (<100 apm as non-zerg) is probably the least problem.

If you have not been into strategy in your live so far, your slow learning curve is probably pretty normal. Dont compare yourself to people, who just have to apply their strategic thinking to starcraft (+ learn the physical part).
MoooN1
Profile Joined December 2007
Germany128 Posts
February 16 2012 13:33 GMT
#148
On February 16 2012 03:34 terrantosaur wrote:

3) Are there people in the Masters league who don’t have to practise that much to be that good? Ie is there such a thing as ‘natural talent’ in SC2 or is it basically application?



im mainly watching streams for now ... not playing that much
when i play i mostly play teamgames

but its very easy to sustain am mid master rank after playing sc1 & 2 for over 12 years
Maggost
Profile Joined August 2011
Venezuela296 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-02-16 13:42:24
February 16 2012 13:40 GMT
#149
On February 16 2012 03:40 Josh_rakoons wrote:
I was bronze about 3 months ago, now masters, i could and can only play every 2 weeks on the weekends, if you put in the work you can do it.
I'd recommend coaching but i wouldnt go with anyone super expensive, such as incontrol... or destiny, go with people like apollo.


*Also, no previous RTS experience, just fps and MMORPG.


That's almost impossible to believe imo.

I think you have a grammar error, "you play every 2 weeks on the weekends" so i think you are saying that you play on weekends only? Maybe you have a pretty good intellect to get Masters from Bronze in 3 months.

I am playing since release and i am in medium gold plus i think that i am a casual player, just playing at night and weekends. This is my first RTS too like you said i played FPS and MMORPGS's since so many years ago.
Quote
MaFFGeeK
Profile Joined January 2011
United States47 Posts
February 16 2012 13:41 GMT
#150
I finished last season at over 900 points in masters and I still have hundreds of holes in my play. I started off in season 1 as bronze with no RTS experience, and I reached master by season 3. If you just work on macro and general unit composition, I think anyone can get to master.
http://sc2ranks.com/us/456806/MaFFGeeK
Ambre
Profile Joined July 2011
France416 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-02-16 14:06:35
February 16 2012 13:55 GMT
#151
Hi there,

You probably already got your answers by now. But I do like your mindset. Maybe you would appreciate free coaching ?
I'm a mid master terran in EU.

PM me if you need some information :-)

Edit / Might as well introduce myself.


I am a student in Information and communication, and I would like to improve my talking, and educational skills in english. What a better way to do it than coaching a british guy ?^^

Regarding SC II, I consider myself beeing a pretty "serious" gamer. I don't play more than 30-45 min a day (my goad since 2012 is 3 ladder games each day, no matter what), but I want to be consistent, keeping improving.
I have a pretty damn good analytic mind (in SC like in life in general), and people always tell me how much I explain things clearly, so..

I watch Day[9] and the GSL.

Anyway, hf with your goals
"There is only one corner of the universe you can be certain of improving, and that's your own self." - Aldous Huxley
Wasihasi
Profile Joined November 2011
Germany36 Posts
February 16 2012 14:02 GMT
#152
At 38 your potential for motorical improvment is all but gone, so your advantage may come only in form of better understanding of the game, be it reaction to certain stuff or overall "feel" for the game. You will plateau at a given level and with high probability you will stay there for ever.

So

1. Yes, you are capped at Diamond level. You can as well fit the exponential curve through your progress It's not that only you will get better - the higher you go, the more people you play against will improve as well.

2. You can try to train micro (APM) but the age factor will play here the most part. It actuall comes down to dedication, but the cap there is also not as high as young people. Prolly will not push you over the diamond anyway.

3. As everywhere there is this "natural talent" in SC2 as well. I mean every profession or sport has it. Still at 38 even if you had a natural talent for SC2 - it is gone. Old dog can't learn new tricks.

4. "Everyone can be master" is just an elitist bulltalk. Not every one can be masters, not everyone will be winning player in poker and not every one will score highest mark in exams. It is a combined mixture of different abilities which define your result and not all of them are learnable/grindable. If you are not prolific in math you can push yourself to some level with work and dedication, but you will never achieve what some people just can without any effort. If your overall coordination is not good you will not achieve best micro possible in SC2 etc.
kcdc
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States2311 Posts
February 16 2012 15:29 GMT
#153
I''m pretty sure you can hit Masters in NA with just good decision making and minimal mechanical skill. 80 APM should be more than enough to expand at the right times, keep your money low, get some stim kiting in, and unload dropships for multipronged attacks.
Blazinghand *
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
United States25551 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-02-16 15:57:32
February 16 2012 15:53 GMT
#154
On February 16 2012 23:02 Wasihasi wrote:
4. "Everyone can be master" is just an elitist bulltalk. Not every one can be masters, not everyone will be winning player in poker and not every one will score highest mark in exams. It is a combined mixture of different abilities which define your result and not all of them are learnable/grindable. If you are not prolific in math you can push yourself to some level with work and dedication, but you will never achieve what some people just can without any effort. If your overall coordination is not good you will not achieve best micro possible in SC2 etc.


I honestly think that if you're willing to sit down and do work, you can get master league, which represents the top 3% of ladderers on NA server. I plateaued in diamond and stayed there for nearly a year before sitting down and looking at how I play and working my way into master league. Don't let the little hurdles along the way get you down-- everyone has their dry spells, improvement-wise.


On February 17 2012 00:29 kcdc wrote:
I''m pretty sure you can hit Masters in NA with just good decision making and minimal mechanical skill. 80 APM should be more than enough to expand at the right times, keep your money low, get some stim kiting in, and unload dropships for multipronged attacks.


I am 100% sure this is the case. I have an average APM my games of 78, and I got into Master League. Having more than that would be really nice, but 80 should be enough for good macro and basic micro.
When you stare into the iCCup, the iCCup stares back.
TL+ Member
Makuly
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
Taiwan54 Posts
February 16 2012 16:11 GMT
#155
1) how many games are you playing each season? If you're only platinum after a year of starcraft 2 it means you're not playing efficiently, i.e. you're not making the most of your games. You're not thinking why you lose or how to improve, you're just playing blindly. Atm there are a HUGE number of master league players, there are too many of them imo. The game is not hard to learn, you just have to learn it, which is a problem for all players who are in the lower leagues.

2)APM is not as relevant as people say. There are several pros with lowish apm (axslav, elfi, goody, etc) as long as you make the important movements it's all good

3) There are natural talents..like Stephano, but even he plays quite a bit. RTS games demand alot from the players so you need to be prepared to dump alot of thought and time into this game to get good. Everyone can get masters league imo, it is not that difficult. There are alot of free learning tools for sc2, day9, husky, hd, and all those commentators, streamers who provide commentary, and replay analysis. You need to take advantage of these free resources then you will be masters eventually with practice
Fierytycoon
Profile Joined October 2010
United States85 Posts
February 16 2012 16:12 GMT
#156
heres my experience and advice

i am 17, currently top GM in NA protoss....when i first started out sc2(my first ever rts game) i was placed into plat for first 3 days of having the game, then diamon within first week, rank 1 diamond in 2 weeks...i played around 1-2 hours for 6 days a week

i have friends/teammates(i own a css team) who all have the game and have achieved different levels in a certain period of time

how well u succeed in sc2 is determined alll very heavily by alllllll of these factors people talk about, such as apm, individual talent, amount of time u play, the way to spend your time
and
to reach the masters levels at least for NA, you dont need to have "mastered" all of these factors or master many, and the point of saying this isnt to give u an idea of how hard it is to make masters, but that it is possible to at least reach a level in each of these factors to reach masters, with some of these factors not being natural talent based
ZeromuS
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
Canada13389 Posts
February 16 2012 16:14 GMT
#157
Anyone can achieve masters league sure but technically because of the way ladder is set up not everyone can actually get into and stay in masters *technically* though this situation probably won't come about until well into the LotV expansion's life (or HotS if players decide LotV is not as good for whatever reason competitively).

Reason being that eventually only the hardcore serious players will remain and very few people will just pick up the game to play or play casually so that masters is a very high level of play and something like platinum or diamond may be where most people wish they could be. Speaking based on the current ladder system and assuming that fewer and fewer people play with time and more and more the people who remain are trying to be the best they can. The day may come where the mid master players become diamond or lower because the top 3% is just a smaller number of people who are all that much better.
StrategyRTS forever | @ZeromuS_plays | www.twitch.tv/Zeromus_
Talin
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
Montenegro10532 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-02-16 16:29:20
February 16 2012 16:24 GMT
#158
On February 16 2012 21:56 ElPeque.fogata wrote:
You should be able to get to masters .

Masters still counts as "casual" gaming.

No need for crisp timmings.
No need for very consistent macro. You can still forget injects or get supply blocked and win.
No need to have too good control. You can still put your whole army in a single hotkey.

gl!


Masters certainly doesn't count as casual gaming. Even playing SC2 multiplayer 2 years after release is hardly casual. Casual gaming is hopping into an account every once in a while in between playing all kinds of other games and maybe playing 4 or 5 games on a Silver/Gold level account.

Everyone in Masters has put in a massive amount of time into SC2 and effort to get there, whether they are aware of it or not - not just playing the games to actively improve, but also watching the related content like pro tournaments, dailies, reading TL (or put the equivalent amount of time back in Brood War to learn the fundamentals). There is nothing casual about that.

As for no need for crisp timings, getting supply blocked often, and having a one-hotkey army, these things happen regularly on a professional level (and when I say regularly, I really mean all the freaking time). So obviously you don't need to get those anywhere near perfect to hit Masters, arguably you don't even need it to win tournaments.
phodacbiet
Profile Joined August 2010
United States1740 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-02-16 16:35:49
February 16 2012 16:25 GMT
#159
Yes, especially if you are in NA. The way blizzard makes the game, its very easy to become master. If you didnt make master via promotion mid season, then you can always reach the "pts needed" and get promoted next season through 1 placement match. You wont believe how bad most masters are yet they still brag about being "master". If you talk about mechanics, watch most master level players, they get supply block more often than Kim Kardashian switch boyfriend/husband. The difference comes from High Master/low gm -> high gm -> semi pro -> pro. From normal master, meaning below top 5, the difference isnt that big just knowledge of build orders, few timings here and there, but that's about it. About hotkeys, you can get away with everything on one key (as long as your production buildings are on separate of course). You can look at most high master toss streamers and they only use 1-2 keys for army while stephano himself only uses 2 for army (4 total). SC2 is not that mechanically demanding until you reach the top level then every little edge counts, but for now it's more like knowing what to do at what time and build orders. Just my opinion.
Sated
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
England4983 Posts
February 16 2012 16:35 GMT
#160
--- Nuked ---
Nairi
Profile Joined September 2010
Finland75 Posts
February 16 2012 17:07 GMT
#161
No, not everyone can be masters. But I do believe that everyone with enough dedication can be masters.
In some cases that will require more than others, but that should not stop anyone from trying.

1.Regarding your progress so far, I think its great that you can see so clearly where you've been and where you are now.
Just remember that the better you get, the longer it takes to improve. (just compare first three weeks vs the last three weeks.)
You also has to remember that while you may get better, others too get better, which will slow down your league progress.

2. Will your apm be capped? I dont know. Does it matter? no.

Apm is something that really only matters when
a) you are at grandmaster level
b) you are at very low apm say 30-40ish, at 80 apm, you are fine up until at least high masters.

High apm is a matter of focus: How many different operations can you juggle in your head at the same time?
The best way to improve apm is imo to do a little more than you are comfortable doing. For instance
keeping your scouting worker alive vs a marine and not missing anything in your own main. Focusing not only
on what your need to do right now, and also on what you need to do next and even on stuff that you will need to do
10 minutes from now.

3. this article:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=285603
claims that Stephano only practises 4 hours/day, and as you know he is pretty good at this game.
Probably not something just anyone can do however, also note that stephano was already good in warcraft 3,
and who knows what he played before that game came out.
So yes, I think its pretty safe to assume that some people just have the natural talent for starcraft 2. But as with anything else in sports:
hard work> talent.

I really dont think age is a barrier, many "older" players have families and other obligations which makes them play less,
therefore you do not see so many "up there". Starcraft 2 is also a new game. Most "older" already had a job,
quitting to maybe get good enough to become pro and make less money than currently, dont see many doing that.
Whereas if you are say 20, you can easily take a year and try to become pro, and I believe there are quite a few
trying to do that right now.

Where should you go from here?
Getting practice partners would not hurt, thats for sure.
However, at your level I think you can still improve a huge deal just playing vs the computer (on very easy).
Its alot easier if you only have to learn one thing at one time, instead of trying to learn everything at once.
When playing on the ladder you not only need to focus on what you are doing, but also on what your opponent is doing.
But vs the computer you are only really playing against yourself and discovering supply blocks and when you are not
making scv:s is much easier to do.
Live long and prosper -Han Solo. Twitter: @Nairisc
Arghnews
Profile Joined June 2011
United Kingdom169 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-02-16 17:11:03
February 16 2012 17:09 GMT
#162
I think some practice fairly regularly, even if only 10 games a week, not much of a commitment, that's perhaps 2-3hours on Saturday.
Watching all forms of SC2 - tournaments, streams, your replays, and even pro replays. This way you get a sense of the metagame and it's builds and timings, timings timings timings, one thing that it is very hard to teach, save this way. My bronze friend always asking, I don't know what to do next, so I say you must go watch and learn.
Macro better. This is key. As a brilliant thread about how people spend their money in SC2 said a while back, most leagues above spend their money better.
I do not believe APM affects your SC2 gameplay to the extent of defining whether or not you can be masters. I've faced enough terran turtlemechs and protoss turtle to max to know that you can be beaten by someone with 60 APM if you have double or more.
Genome852
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States979 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-02-16 17:23:36
February 16 2012 17:18 GMT
#163
On February 16 2012 21:56 ElPeque.fogata wrote:
No need to have too good control. You can still put your whole army in a single hotkey.

gl!


Hey man, MKP puts everything in one hotkey. At least I think he does. A lot of the times I've seen him put tanks and marines in one hotkey... the tanks siege and then the marines are trapped inside them and get stuck. Even pro players aren't perfect.
Skyro
Profile Joined May 2010
United States1823 Posts
February 16 2012 17:43 GMT
#164
I think the best way to improve is to first identify your weaknesses. The best way to do that as an individual (e.g. no one else to coach you or something like that) is by analyzing your games via SC2Gears. Isolate which match-ups and maps you are doing poorly on and then focus 100% on shoring up that match-up and/or map.

Of course to focus on a specific match-up/map you have to do customs and to do that you need practice partners, so the 2nd step is really to either find individual practice partners or try to join a clan. If possible, it is also better to practice with players who are slightly better than you and this will also increase the rate of your improvement.
romelako
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
United States373 Posts
February 16 2012 18:03 GMT
#165
anybody can be masters. just requires the time and effort.
Tictock
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
United States6052 Posts
February 16 2012 18:42 GMT
#166
On February 17 2012 02:18 Genome852 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 16 2012 21:56 ElPeque.fogata wrote:
No need to have too good control. You can still put your whole army in a single hotkey.

gl!


Hey man, MKP puts everything in one hotkey. At least I think he does. A lot of the times I've seen him put tanks and marines in one hotkey... the tanks siege and then the marines are trapped inside them and get stuck. Even pro players aren't perfect.


But since he is Pro we have to assume that is actually intentional to leave support for those tanks ^.^

But realistically I think yes, anyone can be masters but it does take the effort to get there. How much effort will be different for each person depending on alot of factors, probably most importantly RTS experience.

As for your questions:
1) Possibly, but it might be more the limit of where you can go given the time you can put in, not because of some arbitrary skill cap.

2) No, sounds like your APM is pretty good and really APM is overrated. Sure it's useful, but unless you are High masters/GM low APM is probably the least of your worries.

3) Yes and no. I know people who are either consistently in Masters or could be if they actually laddered yet don't play all that much. However these people tend to have quite a lot of previous RTS experience before SC2 so I think it's fair to say they have already put in their time to get that good. I think there is such a thing as natural talent for something like SC2 but consistent practice will trump some upstart gosu who hardly plays anytime.
I can take that responsibility.
Servius_Fulvius
Profile Joined August 2009
United States947 Posts
February 16 2012 18:43 GMT
#167
On February 16 2012 03:34 terrantosaur wrote:
1) Does this (slow) rate of progress indicate that I have roughly ‘found my level’? Ie I will be high Plat/low Diamond maybe but not much better.

2) Will I be naturally capped by my low APM? Is APM like IQ ie it doesn’t really change that much over time. Or can anyone provide examples of how there APM has improved markedly?

3) Are there people in the Masters league who don’t have to practise that much to be that good? Ie is there such a thing as ‘natural talent’ in SC2 or is it basically application?


1). The overall level of skill in SC2 is increasing as time passes. Also, the amount of people in the mid to higher leagues have probably been around longer than those in the lower leagues. The fact your level is around the same means that your skill is improving (if it wasn't then you'd be going down). Have you tried practicing with higher level opponents? It may be hard to see the deficiencies in our play when all are games are against people around our level, but holes become glaringly obvious when a mid-masters pummels us good!

2). APM can increase as practice and skill increases. When I played BW I kept track of my APM and EAPM and watched it change over time. Here's what the earliest graph looked like when I started:
[image loading]

Over summer 2010 it evened out at about 135. You can see that constant play produced a constant increase and then when I stopped playing a while for school it went down. For SC2 my APM is consistently about 140 (85-95 outside SC2gears) but as I play more it goes up to about 160. I feel as though APM levels off at a speed where we feel comfortable with our strategy, so for most people it will level off and only increase when practicing different techniques.

The only situation I can think of right now where a player is capped by APM are situations where Goody (a pro with slower APM) is getting harassed at every angle and something slips. Since you're in platinum (as am I) macro, scouting, and adapting our strategy are probably keeping us down the most.

3). I'll put it this way: when I was in grade school I joined band. I practiced my butt off and became an accomplished trombonist. My little brother rarely touched his instrument, but he had a very high base level of skill.

I work my butt off in my engineering courses and consistently score lower than those who studied an hour or two.

Base level of skill can take you into masters league, especially if you've games a lot in the past. However, hard work is necessary by all to be the top!
Monkeyballs25
Profile Joined October 2010
531 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-02-16 18:52:43
February 16 2012 18:52 GMT
#168
I think there's a lot of very modest Masters players in this thread
It is something only about 2% of the active SC2 population can achieve after all, it can't be all that easy to just do.
If you're not either more talented or more dedicated or both than the 2% that are already there, then obviously you won't be able to make it to masters yourself.

If you're older then that is an extra handicap due to slower reflexes that you have to compensate for with yet more dedication and practice, or a natural flair for good strategies.

So in theory yes. In practice, probably not, due to the existing competition for those roughly 12k spots in Masters from people who are better equipped physically, and in terms of the time they can dedicate. All you can do is try and use your time as efficiently as possible. Which includes not bothering to read this post
ant-1
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
Canada149 Posts
February 16 2012 19:06 GMT
#169
Hey, you're me on the EU server! ^^
I'm same age, same background (gamer but no RTSes), same APM, same achievements (bronze -> plat in season 3, stuck high plat since then, but about to break the diamond barrier). Except I'm on NA and do not work in finance but programming

So I can relate. I've worked quite hard at SC2 (since launch) on my free time too, but it is not a student free time. Kids, whatever you say, being in masters require a LOT of ladder grinding or custom practice. And I remember being in your position, you have waaayyy more free time than the OP and I do.

So I honestly don't know if I'll be masters any day. In the meantime I'm having fun and also love to watch the pro streaming or fighting in tourneys.
The Days Run Away Like Wild Horses Over the Hills
MafiaCheese
Profile Joined April 2010
United States87 Posts
February 16 2012 19:12 GMT
#170
You dont really need a High apm to be masters, its just one of a few factors that influence your ability to play the game optimally. Id recommend shifting your focus towards scouting information at key points in the game, solid build knowledge and timings, and hitting those timings when it counts based on the information you have gained in the game.

What good will apm do if you didnt scout and prepare for an incoming cheese/all-in/2base?

Id recommend learning some other key pieces of information that seperate diamond players from master players such as when to attack and what you should aim to achieve while doing so? Is it to hault an expansion, distract their attention while you snuck medivacs into their base??

So yeah id say its definately possible for most people to reach masters with the proper knowledge of the game and a very modest amount of apm to put it in action.
ant-1
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
Canada149 Posts
February 16 2012 19:24 GMT
#171
I also wanted to talk about something that really hindered my progression: LADDER FEAR. It took me 6 months to overcome it a little, and more than one year to get over it. And even then, it still happens that I'm nervous after a series of victories to the point of switching to something else until the next day.

I have no idea where it comes from. It was not the first game I played online. It was not the first time I played something competitively (played squash, although I must admit to being nervous during competitions, but nothing like the ladder fear).

I overcame it with a mixture of playing a lot, having a secondary account to throw away games (in the end it's this account that's the highest ^^) and a bit of alcohol. Oh and also playing 2v2 with a friend. I dunno why but I'm not stressed in the least when playing 2v2.
The Days Run Away Like Wild Horses Over the Hills
DemonDeacon
Profile Joined February 2012
United States158 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-02-16 20:05:49
February 16 2012 19:58 GMT
#172
if you want some free coaching i might be willing to help you out.. pm me and send me a replay and i'll see if there are some specific pointers i can give you..

i think there are a few basic aspects of the game that every player should consider:

1. general understanding of the gameplay (units, match-ups, tech routes, unit/building costs, hot keys, maps) - every player should know (and use) every hot key for their race and should know every unit and tech route each race can take as well as the related costs. this is a simple and easy way to help you: read what your opponent is doing, estimate how much money they have spent, and predict where they are going in the game. A lot of this becomes intuitive the more you play but if you actively think about these things during games it will drastically help you to reach that intuition. It is also important to know all the maps and know what builds are good for a certain map, if it is a two player map with an open expansion you probably don't want to go command center first. if it is a wide open map with no choke points or cliffs, you probably don't want to go mech.
2. macro
3. micro
4. mechanics/multitasking - the ability to keep on top of your macro WHILE scouting/harassing/engaging is incredibly important. Have you ever been in the middle of a game and just glanced up at your minerals/gas to see they are +500? if so, it means you are lacking in mechanics and multitasking. This is probably the hardest part of the game for older players to master because multi tasking can be very tiring on the brain and younger players have much better speed/stamina.

If you can master just 2 or 3 of these areas, you can become masters on the NA server IMO.

gg
celeryman
Profile Joined January 2011
United States54 Posts
February 16 2012 21:11 GMT
#173
On February 16 2012 03:52 SoulWager wrote:
If you have two functioning limbs, one functioning eye, and a functioning brain, you can be masters at sc2.


Posts like this are toxic. If there's something holding back the gaming community right now it's the notion that gamers are all teenagers trolling on x-box. Posts like this only reinforce that notion. And not only that, so do non-trolling statements like "masters is easy," or its more subtle twin which is occasionally on display in this thread. The idea that the top 2% of any skill are "bad" at it or getting there is "ez" to accomplish strikes most adults as, at best, naive. Gaming will never become a serious spectator event if it's seen as a child's pursuit.

And the irony is that it's not a child's pursuit. As the OP shows, there are plenty of people out of school, working real, quality jobs, who want to get better at this game. The gaming community has to embrace this perception.

I suspect this kind of elitism comes largely from a subset of younger players who found something they're good at. And instead of focusing on how hard it was or how unique their accomplishment, they use it to denigrate those below them. "It's not that I'm good, it's that you're bad."

This is a bad instinct. Sure you can improve, but not acknowledging statistical outliers for what they are is willful ignorance. It creates an environment that outsiders see as negative and immature. It drives out new potential players, new potential viewers, and new potential sponsors.

On February 17 2012 03:52 Monkeyballs25 wrote:
I think there's a lot of very modest Masters players in this thread
It is something only about 2% of the active SC2 population can achieve after all, it can't be all that easy to just do.
If you're not either more talented or more dedicated or both than the 2% that are already there, then obviously you won't be able to make it to masters yourself.


Exactly.

I suspect the actual masters population is less than 2%, because a disproportionate number of Masters players have 2nd or 3rd accounts. In other words, most people in masters represent the top 1% of people who've played this game.

Before you say "masters is ez" ask yourself this question: Did you score a 2140* on your SATs? Was it easy?

Like all populations, the bell curve gets a lot steeper at the top. Of course you can always get better, and no, don't ever think you've stopped growing, but acknowledge that your accomplishments are meaningful. The sooner this community realizes that, the quicker it will grow.

* Note: 1450 if you took the pre2006 test
Blazinghand *
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
United States25551 Posts
February 16 2012 21:18 GMT
#174
On February 17 2012 06:11 celeryman wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 17 2012 03:52 Monkeyballs25 wrote:
I think there's a lot of very modest Masters players in this thread
It is something only about 2% of the active SC2 population can achieve after all, it can't be all that easy to just do.
If you're not either more talented or more dedicated or both than the 2% that are already there, then obviously you won't be able to make it to masters yourself.


Exactly.

I suspect the actual masters population is less than 2%, because a disproportionate number of Masters players have 2nd or 3rd accounts. In other words, most people in masters represent the top 1% of people who've played this game.

Before you say "masters is ez" ask yourself this question: Did you score a 2140* on your SATs? Was it easy?

Like all populations, the bell curve gets a lot steeper at the top. Of course you can always get better, and no, don't ever think you've stopped growing, but acknowledge that your accomplishments are meaningful. The sooner this community realizes that, the quicker it will grow.

* Note: 1450 if you took the pre2006 test


It's the top 3% in NA that are in master, actually. And the idea that every single Master player has a smurf account that is in master is preposterous. If, say, half of them did, it'd still be 2/3rds legit players, and we're back at 2%.

I'm not sure your SAT question is a good one though, since everyone who takes the SAT is trying to get into college. Not everyone who plays Sc2 does so in a competitive fashion. I have friends all the way up through Diamond League who basically just dick around. A better question would be: Did you take the SATs? since most people do not.
When you stare into the iCCup, the iCCup stares back.
TL+ Member
celeryman
Profile Joined January 2011
United States54 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-02-16 21:50:46
February 16 2012 21:49 GMT
#175


It's the top 3% in NA that are in master, actually. And the idea that every single Master player has a smurf account that is in master is preposterous. If, say, half of them did, it'd still be 2/3rds legit players, and we're back at 2%.

I'm not sure your SAT question is a good one though, since everyone who takes the SAT is trying to get into college. Not everyone who plays Sc2 does so in a competitive fashion. I have friends all the way up through Diamond League who basically just dick around. A better question would be: Did you take the SATs? since most people do not.


I never said "every single Master player has a smurf." But there are likely some that have more than 2. At the very least the active masters players are better than 98% of all other active players. My 2140/1450 numbers also represent the 98% anyway. I was being conservative in my estimates.

And the SAT comparison itself is apt. There were about 2.6 million college freshman in 2004 and about 1.4 million took the SATs in 2006 (rough comparisons here). So if 50% of the population on SC2 are at least nominally trying, it would be a great comparison.

Your unstated point is that if nobody's trying very hard, then for the few that do the statistics inflate the degree of accomplishment. A few points, first the league percentages are calculated on active players, so the non competitive (this would include your 3% numbers too) players are accounted for to some extent. Second, you refer to "competitive fashion" but what does that matter. The fact still stands that masters skill represents the top 2% of active players. You can't restrict the subset of meaningful data to a factor you've created called "competitive" play as opposed to "dick[ing] around" play. I could do a similar treatment to the SAT data and with the same result.

It's a handy yardstick to demonstrate what top 2% actually means, and to have some perspective.
Blazinghand *
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
United States25551 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-02-16 21:59:01
February 16 2012 21:57 GMT
#176
On February 17 2012 06:49 celeryman wrote:
Show nested quote +


It's the top 3% in NA that are in master, actually. And the idea that every single Master player has a smurf account that is in master is preposterous. If, say, half of them did, it'd still be 2/3rds legit players, and we're back at 2%.

I'm not sure your SAT question is a good one though, since everyone who takes the SAT is trying to get into college. Not everyone who plays Sc2 does so in a competitive fashion. I have friends all the way up through Diamond League who basically just dick around. A better question would be: Did you take the SATs? since most people do not.


I never said "every single Master player has a smurf." But there are likely some that have more than 2. At the very least the active masters players are better than 98% of all other active players. My 2140/1450 numbers also represent the 98% anyway. I was being conservative in my estimates.

And the SAT comparison itself is apt. There were about 2.6 million college freshman in 2004 and about 1.4 million took the SATs in 2006 (rough comparisons here). So if 50% of the population on SC2 are at least nominally trying, it would be a great comparison.


The idea that 50% of the population of Sc2 is trying to actively compete and get better is preposterous to me. Most people just play this game to dick around and have fun-- TL is a unique group of tryhard players, a subset of people who are striving to be the best at a higher rate than the general populace.


Your unstated point is that if nobody's trying very hard, then for the few that do the statistics inflate the degree of accomplishment. A few points, first the league percentages are calculated on active players, so the non competitive (this would include your 3% numbers too) players are accounted for to some extent. Second, you refer to "competitive fashion" but what does that matter. The fact still stands that masters skill represents the top 2% of active players. You can't restrict the subset of meaningful data to a factor you've created called "competitive" play as opposed to "dick[ing] around" play. I could do a similar treatment to the SAT data and with the same result.

It's a handy yardstick to demonstrate what top 2% actually means, and to have some perspective.


Again, it's the top 3% on NA, not the top 2%. Furthermore, "Active players" is just "someone who has played 1 ladder game during the 8-week season" so there are tons of inactive players.


EDIT: even my master division for last season, 25 of the 100 players had fewer than 10 wins because there are casuals all the way up here. I only had like 25 because I haven't been laddering as competitively this year. Most people play this game casually...
When you stare into the iCCup, the iCCup stares back.
TL+ Member
LaM
Profile Blog Joined September 2011
United States1321 Posts
February 16 2012 21:59 GMT
#177
On February 16 2012 03:59 CrtBalorda wrote:
1. Anyone can be masters
2. Masters still sucks


So you're in GM? Or are you in Gold and talking shit about masters players because you are a godly macro king who is stuck in Gold because of the all-inning n00bs?
Anything is Possible
Blazinghand *
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
United States25551 Posts
February 16 2012 22:00 GMT
#178
On February 17 2012 06:59 hunger wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 16 2012 03:59 CrtBalorda wrote:
1. Anyone can be masters
2. Masters still sucks


So you're in GM? Or are you in Gold and talking shit about masters players because you are a godly macro king who is stuck in Gold because of the all-inning n00bs?


I think what he's saying is "Starcraft 2 is a game with a high skill cap. As such, there's a lot of room to improve, even if you're in Master league already."
When you stare into the iCCup, the iCCup stares back.
TL+ Member
Terranist
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
United States2496 Posts
February 16 2012 22:02 GMT
#179
On February 17 2012 06:59 hunger wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 16 2012 03:59 CrtBalorda wrote:
1. Anyone can be masters
2. Masters still sucks


So you're in GM? Or are you in Gold and talking shit about masters players because you are a godly macro king who is stuck in Gold because of the all-inning n00bs?


or perhaps he is gold but he tells everyone his mmr is master level if he plays more than four games a season.
The Show of a Lifetime
architecture
Profile Blog Joined May 2008
United States643 Posts
February 16 2012 22:02 GMT
#180
On February 17 2012 07:00 Blazinghand wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 17 2012 06:59 hunger wrote:
On February 16 2012 03:59 CrtBalorda wrote:
1. Anyone can be masters
2. Masters still sucks


So you're in GM? Or are you in Gold and talking shit about masters players because you are a godly macro king who is stuck in Gold because of the all-inning n00bs?


I think what he's saying is "Starcraft 2 is a game with a high skill cap. As such, there's a lot of room to improve, even if you're in Master league already."


No, what he's saying is that Masters represents a huge range in skill level, essentially everything from D to A+ in ICCUP (though probably not D-). It doesn't mean anything.
tpfkan
Blazinghand *
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
United States25551 Posts
February 16 2012 22:04 GMT
#181
On February 17 2012 07:02 architecture wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 17 2012 07:00 Blazinghand wrote:
On February 17 2012 06:59 hunger wrote:
On February 16 2012 03:59 CrtBalorda wrote:
1. Anyone can be masters
2. Masters still sucks


So you're in GM? Or are you in Gold and talking shit about masters players because you are a godly macro king who is stuck in Gold because of the all-inning n00bs?


I think what he's saying is "Starcraft 2 is a game with a high skill cap. As such, there's a lot of room to improve, even if you're in Master league already."


No, what he's saying is that Masters represents a huge range in skill level, essentially everything from D to A+ in ICCUP (though probably not D-). It doesn't mean anything.


Oh yeah. There's definitely an enormous diversity of skill in Master League. Like, just within the league there are people who could 100% crush people who could 100% crush people who could crush me horribly. There's an enormous height of skill in Master, even not including GM.
When you stare into the iCCup, the iCCup stares back.
TL+ Member
architecture
Profile Blog Joined May 2008
United States643 Posts
February 16 2012 22:05 GMT
#182
As for the OP, have you heard the idea that it takes 10000 hours to master something?

You list out your league progression, but there is no mention of how many games, or how many hours you've spent. Does that make sense to you?

Can you imagine for anything else, saying "how come I'm progressing so slowly learning piano, 3 months ago I was this, now I'm that", when you don't mention how many hours you've practiced?

There's no way to judge your performance because you haven't even analyzed it in the right dimensions.
tpfkan
BearStorm
Profile Joined September 2010
United States795 Posts
February 16 2012 22:17 GMT
#183
A lot of people in the Master League are not very good . . . AT ALL. Half a year ago I was able to reach masters with a new race with minimal effirt. So yes I believe given enough time anyone, except for some rare exceptions, can reach masters.However in order to reach it in a reasonable amount of time it helps to have good mechanics or spend time actually analyzing replays in depth. By doing so you learn how to improve faster unlike the thousands of terrible players that plague TL who will always be terrible so long as they convince themselves that they "get it" and the only thing holding them back is mechanics. This game is incredibly complex and for anyone to just say they "get it" is lying to themselves. If you are planning on getting better please make an effort to do it in an efficient way. You will enjoy the game a lot more. Best of luck.
"Anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that 'my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."
Blazinghand *
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
United States25551 Posts
February 16 2012 22:19 GMT
#184
On February 17 2012 07:17 BearStorm wrote:
A lot of people in the Master League are not very good . . . AT ALL. Half a year ago I was able to reach masters with a new race with minimal effirt. So yes I believe given enough time anyone, except for some rare exceptions, can reach masters.However in order to reach it in a reasonable amount of time it helps to have good mechanics or spend time actually analyzing replays in depth. By doing so you learn how to improve faster unlike the thousands of terrible players that plague TL who will always be terrible so long as they convince themselves that they "get it" and the only thing holding them back is mechanics. This game is incredibly complex and for anyone to just say they "get it" is lying to themselves. If you are planning on getting better please make an effort to do it in an efficient way. You will enjoy the game a lot more. Best of luck.


If you claim your mechanics are fine and you just don't "get it" you're gonna be in trouble too. A critical look at all the stuff that causes you trouble is the best way to improve. Mechanics hold a lot of people back, honestly.
When you stare into the iCCup, the iCCup stares back.
TL+ Member
dreamsmasher
Profile Joined November 2010
816 Posts
February 16 2012 22:27 GMT
#185
if you mean by the if any one individual can practice their way into have the skill level to compete with a master's league player? yes.

can everyone make it into master league (by virtue of statistics) no.
Nightshade_
Profile Blog Joined August 2011
United States549 Posts
February 16 2012 22:27 GMT
#186
On February 16 2012 03:59 CrtBalorda wrote:
1. Anyone can be masters
2. Masters still sucks

This sadly is true. Masters is the top 2%, unfortunately, only the top .75% can be considered good.
Lil' Joey, Master of the A-Move Stalker Strike Force
celeryman
Profile Joined January 2011
United States54 Posts
February 16 2012 22:30 GMT
#187
On February 17 2012 06:57 Blazinghand wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 17 2012 06:49 celeryman wrote:


It's the top 3% in NA that are in master, actually. And the idea that every single Master player has a smurf account that is in master is preposterous. If, say, half of them did, it'd still be 2/3rds legit players, and we're back at 2%.

I'm not sure your SAT question is a good one though, since everyone who takes the SAT is trying to get into college. Not everyone who plays Sc2 does so in a competitive fashion. I have friends all the way up through Diamond League who basically just dick around. A better question would be: Did you take the SATs? since most people do not.


I never said "every single Master player has a smurf." But there are likely some that have more than 2. At the very least the active masters players are better than 98% of all other active players. My 2140/1450 numbers also represent the 98% anyway. I was being conservative in my estimates.

And the SAT comparison itself is apt. There were about 2.6 million college freshman in 2004 and about 1.4 million took the SATs in 2006 (rough comparisons here). So if 50% of the population on SC2 are at least nominally trying, it would be a great comparison.


The idea that 50% of the population of Sc2 is trying to actively compete and get better is preposterous to me. Most people just play this game to dick around and have fun-- TL is a unique group of tryhard players, a subset of people who are striving to be the best at a higher rate than the general populace.

Show nested quote +

Your unstated point is that if nobody's trying very hard, then for the few that do the statistics inflate the degree of accomplishment. A few points, first the league percentages are calculated on active players, so the non competitive (this would include your 3% numbers too) players are accounted for to some extent. Second, you refer to "competitive fashion" but what does that matter. The fact still stands that masters skill represents the top 2% of active players. You can't restrict the subset of meaningful data to a factor you've created called "competitive" play as opposed to "dick[ing] around" play. I could do a similar treatment to the SAT data and with the same result.

It's a handy yardstick to demonstrate what top 2% actually means, and to have some perspective.


Again, it's the top 3% on NA, not the top 2%. Furthermore, "Active players" is just "someone who has played 1 ladder game during the 8-week season" so there are tons of inactive players.


EDIT: even my master division for last season, 25 of the 100 players had fewer than 10 wins because there are casuals all the way up here. I only had like 25 because I haven't been laddering as competitively this year. Most people play this game casually...


You're overusing the word "preposterous". Where are you getting this 3% number? http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/blog/2053471 still says 2%. Perhaps you're drawing it out of sc2ranks distribution? I've heard discussions about how those numbers aren't the best to use for evaluating MMR populations. Even if "active" means played just 1 game a season (I was under the assumption it was a higher burden but I don't see anything detailed about it in Excalibur's guide), my statistical points remain.
Bonneyi
Profile Joined February 2012
Ireland29 Posts
February 16 2012 22:37 GMT
#188
On February 17 2012 07:27 Nightshade_ wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 16 2012 03:59 CrtBalorda wrote:
1. Anyone can be masters
2. Masters still sucks

This sadly is true. Masters is the top 2%, unfortunately, only the top .75% can be considered good.


I heard that this also depends on the region , for example KR is tougher than NA and so on .

I feel like just playing a lot is not helping me , i played 1500 games and im heading to diamond soon , im kindoff worried and feel like im doing something wrong , ust not sure what .
Terran up - Terrans all over the world
Kaitokid
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
Germany1327 Posts
February 16 2012 22:39 GMT
#189
3h a day is actually a lot. Best use of those 3h would probably be watching like 1 Terran replay/stream game of a player whos good and you like and then spam laddergames without interruption. Watch replays of yourself losing when you don't know what your opponent did, but in my opinion the statistics after the game already tell a lot...

Achieving average masters level is extremely easy and I am certain anyone can do it even without a lot of effort.
willyallthewei
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
United States265 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-02-16 23:01:32
February 16 2012 22:41 GMT
#190
The master players today that can play actively and stay in masters, I'd say are significantly better than Masters players 1 year or even 6 months ago.

There is a huge gap in skill between even the bottom and the middle of masters for the reason that some players are hinging off old MMRs, and then there is a big gap in skill again between mid masters and high masters where you've got people that are really good but arent quite active or consistent enough to be GM.

Its all about context - if you only deem professional and tournament level players as "good" then only a few dozen people in all of North America are "good", if you deem only Korean tournament competitors or even korean high masters/GM level players as "good" then you would have a hard time finding more than 3 people in the western hemisphere that are "good".

At what point is the standard for "good" too harsh?
"never give up, never surrender"
celeryman
Profile Joined January 2011
United States54 Posts
February 16 2012 22:51 GMT
#191
On February 17 2012 07:41 willyallthewei wrote:
The master players today that can play actively and stay in masters, I'd say are significantly better than Masters players 1 year or even 6 months ago.

There is a huge gap in skill between even the bottom and the middle of masters for the reason that some players are hinging off old MMRs, and then there is a big gap in skill again between mid masters and high masters where you've got people that are really good but arent quite active or consistent enough to be GM.

Its all about context - if you only deem professional and tournament level players as "good" then only a few dozen people in all of North America are "good", if you deem only Korean tournament competitors or even korean high masters/GM level players as "good" then you would have a hard time finding more than 3 people in the western hemisphere that are "good".

At what point is the standard for "good" too harsh?

This is a very good point. My earlier post is that if we get so embroiled in the idea that nobody's "good," let alone great, we seem out-of-touch and immature. And that has the real potential to hinder e-sport's broader acceptance.
Blazinghand *
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
United States25551 Posts
February 16 2012 23:05 GMT
#192
On February 17 2012 07:30 celeryman wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 17 2012 06:57 Blazinghand wrote:
On February 17 2012 06:49 celeryman wrote:


It's the top 3% in NA that are in master, actually. And the idea that every single Master player has a smurf account that is in master is preposterous. If, say, half of them did, it'd still be 2/3rds legit players, and we're back at 2%.

I'm not sure your SAT question is a good one though, since everyone who takes the SAT is trying to get into college. Not everyone who plays Sc2 does so in a competitive fashion. I have friends all the way up through Diamond League who basically just dick around. A better question would be: Did you take the SATs? since most people do not.


I never said "every single Master player has a smurf." But there are likely some that have more than 2. At the very least the active masters players are better than 98% of all other active players. My 2140/1450 numbers also represent the 98% anyway. I was being conservative in my estimates.

And the SAT comparison itself is apt. There were about 2.6 million college freshman in 2004 and about 1.4 million took the SATs in 2006 (rough comparisons here). So if 50% of the population on SC2 are at least nominally trying, it would be a great comparison.


The idea that 50% of the population of Sc2 is trying to actively compete and get better is preposterous to me. Most people just play this game to dick around and have fun-- TL is a unique group of tryhard players, a subset of people who are striving to be the best at a higher rate than the general populace.


Your unstated point is that if nobody's trying very hard, then for the few that do the statistics inflate the degree of accomplishment. A few points, first the league percentages are calculated on active players, so the non competitive (this would include your 3% numbers too) players are accounted for to some extent. Second, you refer to "competitive fashion" but what does that matter. The fact still stands that masters skill represents the top 2% of active players. You can't restrict the subset of meaningful data to a factor you've created called "competitive" play as opposed to "dick[ing] around" play. I could do a similar treatment to the SAT data and with the same result.

It's a handy yardstick to demonstrate what top 2% actually means, and to have some perspective.


Again, it's the top 3% on NA, not the top 2%. Furthermore, "Active players" is just "someone who has played 1 ladder game during the 8-week season" so there are tons of inactive players.


EDIT: even my master division for last season, 25 of the 100 players had fewer than 10 wins because there are casuals all the way up here. I only had like 25 because I haven't been laddering as competitively this year. Most people play this game casually...


You're overusing the word "preposterous". Where are you getting this 3% number? http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/blog/2053471 still says 2%. Perhaps you're drawing it out of sc2ranks distribution? I've heard discussions about how those numbers aren't the best to use for evaluating MMR populations. Even if "active" means played just 1 game a season (I was under the assumption it was a higher burden but I don't see anything detailed about it in Excalibur's guide), my statistical points remain.


Oh yes that's a good point the blog from january 2011 is more up to date than current statistics on who's in master league. I concede defeat.
When you stare into the iCCup, the iCCup stares back.
TL+ Member
Banchan
Profile Joined May 2011
United States179 Posts
February 16 2012 23:08 GMT
#193
I think anyone can get into masters if they try hard enough.

I started in S1 as bronze and went through all of the leagues, eventually reaching masters in S3 or something. It just takes a good attitude and some dedication. I don't think it's possible to get to masters off 3 games a week, but even if you play 20 ladder games every day you won't get to masters if you refuse to put effort into improving.
willyallthewei
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
United States265 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-02-16 23:27:06
February 16 2012 23:11 GMT
#194
Think about it this way, if you are rank 49 masters, you are in the top 1% of the active 1v1 laddering community.

That 1v1 laddering group is probably around a quarter of the active multiplayer community, once you factor in all the players playing marine arena, 2v2s, spin offs and custom games.

The multiplayer communities for even the most multiplayer focused games like Unreal tournament often adds up to less than half of the total game install base. That total game install base happens to be even a fraction of the people that have ever tried or played Starcraft, of which many do not own a copy (such as players in china and people in korea who play on internet cafe's)

That brings us to a number closer to the area of .1% of the Starcraft install base.

Lets say WOL gets around 9 million in install base, then there are roughly 9,000 masters players worldwide.

Lets say that 200 KR players outside of GSL are good, then that means we have 264 high level pros in Korea before we factor in the rest of the world. If we say that the rest of the world provides even 1 third of that number in high level pro players, we are looking at a overall "high level professional" roster of roughly 350 players worldwide. That's roughly 3.33% to 4% of all masters players being "high level pros". That's impressive to me, masters players are as rare in the active Sc2 community as pros are amongst masters players worldwide...

My point is, masters players are REALLY FREAKING GOOD compared to your average Joe, for comparisons I scored in the top 1% in the LSAT coming out of college, I was a competitive candidate for Harvard Law, statistically, I was 1/3 as rare compared to my peers applying to law school as a masters player is compared to the SC2 install base. Even counting only active laddering players, i was only equally as rare amongst my peers.

Would you say that a Harvard Law student is "good" at school? I would...

The thought process that its not hard because you know someone who did it when they tried hard enough is common amongst just about all competitive activities... think about all your friends who said "its not that hard" about something someone else did, but only 1 guy did it.

Yeah its kind of hard, and no, if you worked all day at it without sleep, you still probably wont' be as good as idra, not because you aren't smart or fast enough, but because you likely don't have the discipline and neurotic need to win that he has.

If you start the conversation with - only Koreans are good, everyone else sucks and its not that hard if you just work hours at it and read strategies, adjust your mindset and study replays - then all you're doing is marginalizing the hardwork that other people put into getting to masters.

How many hobbies can you think of where proper practice for 2-3 hours per day every day for 6 months was necessary to be really "good" at?

Masters are "good" in my opinion and getting to it is "hard" compared to most of the other hobbies you can take up.

Sure, there are sports and careers significantly harder, but there's always something harder. For some real perspective, the game considered by all websites as the hardest game ever made is "I wanna be the guy." The game is made for only its difficulty. Now if you took every minute you ever spent reading/learning/watching and playing starcraft into "I wanna be the guy," do you really think you would have trouble not only beating it, but putting up a video of a perfect run on it?

Most masters players put more energy, focus, and dedication into Sc2 than they realize.
"never give up, never surrender"
SwirlQ
Profile Joined February 2011
United States148 Posts
February 16 2012 23:13 GMT
#195
Yes, you can be masters at SC2, because decision making outweighs mechanics by a good bit atleast at the higher levels.
ScareCrow`
Profile Joined June 2011
Canada88 Posts
February 16 2012 23:31 GMT
#196
I would say yes and no for a mix of reasoning.

Yes in the sense that anyone is able achieve masters given the effort and time. However, I also believe that being able to put in the effort and time is a skill in itself. I've seen many threads both here and on reddit of people 'plagued' with the inability to hit that find match button, or sheer inability to play after a few games and relegate their limited time and resources to watching streams or various other agendas. Half of me believes this can boil down a lot of the time to "man up", but there's the odd legitimate reason.

Long story short, if you put in the time and effort, yes.
scarper65
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
1560 Posts
February 16 2012 23:37 GMT
#197
I got into master league on the NA server within 3 months of player about 1 hour a day, with my only prior gaming experience being starcraft 1 fastest maps with my friends. I would say that absolutely anyone can get into masters, the only thing that differs is the amount of time different people might need to put in.
celeryman
Profile Joined January 2011
United States54 Posts
February 16 2012 23:40 GMT
#198
On February 17 2012 08:05 Blazinghand wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 17 2012 07:30 celeryman wrote:
On February 17 2012 06:57 Blazinghand wrote:
On February 17 2012 06:49 celeryman wrote:


It's the top 3% in NA that are in master, actually. And the idea that every single Master player has a smurf account that is in master is preposterous. If, say, half of them did, it'd still be 2/3rds legit players, and we're back at 2%.

I'm not sure your SAT question is a good one though, since everyone who takes the SAT is trying to get into college. Not everyone who plays Sc2 does so in a competitive fashion. I have friends all the way up through Diamond League who basically just dick around. A better question would be: Did you take the SATs? since most people do not.


I never said "every single Master player has a smurf." But there are likely some that have more than 2. At the very least the active masters players are better than 98% of all other active players. My 2140/1450 numbers also represent the 98% anyway. I was being conservative in my estimates.

And the SAT comparison itself is apt. There were about 2.6 million college freshman in 2004 and about 1.4 million took the SATs in 2006 (rough comparisons here). So if 50% of the population on SC2 are at least nominally trying, it would be a great comparison.


The idea that 50% of the population of Sc2 is trying to actively compete and get better is preposterous to me. Most people just play this game to dick around and have fun-- TL is a unique group of tryhard players, a subset of people who are striving to be the best at a higher rate than the general populace.


Your unstated point is that if nobody's trying very hard, then for the few that do the statistics inflate the degree of accomplishment. A few points, first the league percentages are calculated on active players, so the non competitive (this would include your 3% numbers too) players are accounted for to some extent. Second, you refer to "competitive fashion" but what does that matter. The fact still stands that masters skill represents the top 2% of active players. You can't restrict the subset of meaningful data to a factor you've created called "competitive" play as opposed to "dick[ing] around" play. I could do a similar treatment to the SAT data and with the same result.

It's a handy yardstick to demonstrate what top 2% actually means, and to have some perspective.


Again, it's the top 3% on NA, not the top 2%. Furthermore, "Active players" is just "someone who has played 1 ladder game during the 8-week season" so there are tons of inactive players.


EDIT: even my master division for last season, 25 of the 100 players had fewer than 10 wins because there are casuals all the way up here. I only had like 25 because I haven't been laddering as competitively this year. Most people play this game casually...


You're overusing the word "preposterous". Where are you getting this 3% number? http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/blog/2053471 still says 2%. Perhaps you're drawing it out of sc2ranks distribution? I've heard discussions about how those numbers aren't the best to use for evaluating MMR populations. Even if "active" means played just 1 game a season (I was under the assumption it was a higher burden but I don't see anything detailed about it in Excalibur's guide), my statistical points remain.


Oh yes that's a good point the blog from january 2011 is more up to date than current statistics on who's in master league. I concede defeat.


Well I don't know where you're getting your statistics from. You just keep saying 3%.

You don't have to be snarky about it either.

Tbh I'm not sure it's possible to convince you, or what threshold of skill it'd take for you to deem someone "good."
Blazinghand *
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
United States25551 Posts
February 16 2012 23:43 GMT
#199
On February 17 2012 08:40 celeryman wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 17 2012 08:05 Blazinghand wrote:
On February 17 2012 07:30 celeryman wrote:
On February 17 2012 06:57 Blazinghand wrote:
On February 17 2012 06:49 celeryman wrote:


It's the top 3% in NA that are in master, actually. And the idea that every single Master player has a smurf account that is in master is preposterous. If, say, half of them did, it'd still be 2/3rds legit players, and we're back at 2%.

I'm not sure your SAT question is a good one though, since everyone who takes the SAT is trying to get into college. Not everyone who plays Sc2 does so in a competitive fashion. I have friends all the way up through Diamond League who basically just dick around. A better question would be: Did you take the SATs? since most people do not.


I never said "every single Master player has a smurf." But there are likely some that have more than 2. At the very least the active masters players are better than 98% of all other active players. My 2140/1450 numbers also represent the 98% anyway. I was being conservative in my estimates.

And the SAT comparison itself is apt. There were about 2.6 million college freshman in 2004 and about 1.4 million took the SATs in 2006 (rough comparisons here). So if 50% of the population on SC2 are at least nominally trying, it would be a great comparison.


The idea that 50% of the population of Sc2 is trying to actively compete and get better is preposterous to me. Most people just play this game to dick around and have fun-- TL is a unique group of tryhard players, a subset of people who are striving to be the best at a higher rate than the general populace.


Your unstated point is that if nobody's trying very hard, then for the few that do the statistics inflate the degree of accomplishment. A few points, first the league percentages are calculated on active players, so the non competitive (this would include your 3% numbers too) players are accounted for to some extent. Second, you refer to "competitive fashion" but what does that matter. The fact still stands that masters skill represents the top 2% of active players. You can't restrict the subset of meaningful data to a factor you've created called "competitive" play as opposed to "dick[ing] around" play. I could do a similar treatment to the SAT data and with the same result.

It's a handy yardstick to demonstrate what top 2% actually means, and to have some perspective.


Again, it's the top 3% on NA, not the top 2%. Furthermore, "Active players" is just "someone who has played 1 ladder game during the 8-week season" so there are tons of inactive players.


EDIT: even my master division for last season, 25 of the 100 players had fewer than 10 wins because there are casuals all the way up here. I only had like 25 because I haven't been laddering as competitively this year. Most people play this game casually...


You're overusing the word "preposterous". Where are you getting this 3% number? http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/blog/2053471 still says 2%. Perhaps you're drawing it out of sc2ranks distribution? I've heard discussions about how those numbers aren't the best to use for evaluating MMR populations. Even if "active" means played just 1 game a season (I was under the assumption it was a higher burden but I don't see anything detailed about it in Excalibur's guide), my statistical points remain.


Oh yes that's a good point the blog from january 2011 is more up to date than current statistics on who's in master league. I concede defeat.


Well I don't know where you're getting your statistics from. You just keep saying 3%.

You don't have to be snarky about it either.

Tbh I'm not sure it's possible to convince you, or what threshold of skill it'd take for you to deem someone "good."


It's fine, you've convinced me. Master League MMR is set so that the top 2% of players in any region fall into Master League, and you have to be pretty good. In fact, it's an incorrect to say "everyone" can get into Master League, since if everyone tried, only 2% could get in-- as the game gets more competitive, it will become harder and harder to get in as the less competitive players stop playing, also.
When you stare into the iCCup, the iCCup stares back.
TL+ Member
HellionDrop
Profile Blog Joined June 2011
281 Posts
February 16 2012 23:48 GMT
#200
the reason that you're stuck is simple, you don't learn much after each game you play. you need to think about the mistakes you make after every game, so you can avoid making the same mistakes over and over.
Nuclease
Profile Joined August 2011
United States1049 Posts
February 16 2012 23:52 GMT
#201
You can always, always improve. Never doubt that. I don't have that attitude about many things, but SC2 for sure.
Zealots, not zee-lots. | Never forget, KTViolet, Go)Space. | You will never be as good as By.Flash, and your drops will never be as sick as MMA.
Skyro
Profile Joined May 2010
United States1823 Posts
February 16 2012 23:58 GMT
#202
I think I remember idra saying something to the affect of everybody could even reach a pro or near-pro level of sc2 if you have the dedication, but that only near the very very top do things like natural talent or whatever make a difference.
LaM
Profile Blog Joined September 2011
United States1321 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-02-17 00:52:20
February 17 2012 00:51 GMT
#203
This is cool, I for one am thrilled. But I'm kinda sad about how excited I am. C'mon Blizz. At the very least give us a reasonable paid option to change our name more frequently. Or let's be real, a name change every season, every 3 months, every something.. ?

edit/ This is not the right thread. lmao.
Anything is Possible
Average Joe
Profile Joined November 2011
21 Posts
February 17 2012 00:59 GMT
#204
When people mention APM are they referring to the in-game counter or the SCgears one?
terrantosaur
Profile Joined August 2011
42 Posts
February 17 2012 01:08 GMT
#205
One question I have prompted by some of the comments in reply to my questions and also my experience the last two nights in the Diamond league... can anyone comment on the following: how easy is it to stay in a division with a very mediocre win/loss record? I ask because (as I've already revealed) I have had to grind so hard to get promoted... all the way from Bronze to now Diamond in what, for most people who've replied, is an inordinate amount of time :-)). But in the last 48 hours since becoming Diamond I've played a lot of people who were Diamond last season and even one Masters player (who I beat, yeah!). Sure there have been some games where I have been OWNED. Like horribly, demoralisingly, sickeningly OWNED. But, in the round, I've held my own. I'm currently ranked 1 in this Diamond league and while I'm sure I will fall lower as the leagues 'settle' in Season 6 - the difference between where I was (in high Plat) and now seems quite marginal.

So this got me thinking about whether there could be some sort of anamoly in the league system. Say someone had a bit of experience when the game was first released and immediately got into the top league at that time but didn't really play much thereafter. Could they still be ranked Diamond or even Master now? It would be fascinating to find such a person and get them to start a new account and see whether they couls immediately got back to their current league and level - or whether they could detect a massively better standard in some of the lower leagues than they were expecting...

Other than the outliers in general the differences feel 'manageable' which I wasn't expecting.

Another comment: people talk about learning from your losses... well I can say that when you get absolutely OWNED it is all the adjectives above but I also learnt more from those games than so many others when much more marginal things cost me. So, for those of you in a similar position to me, I do think that finding some way to play against a couple of say Masters level players will probably accelerate your development.

Thanks too for all the PMs I've had offering me help. This site is just awesome and I'm pretty stunned that so many people have been kind enough to offer me help.


Simon
MXfive
Profile Joined January 2012
United Kingdom19 Posts
February 17 2012 02:03 GMT
#206
Stephano is probably the best example of natural talent, he plays around 4-5 hours a day, if that, and spends the rest of his time doing other things.
"FFE and die"
Chutoro
Profile Joined January 2011
New Zealand95 Posts
February 17 2012 03:15 GMT
#207
On February 16 2012 13:41 Belial88 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 16 2012 13:14 Chutoro wrote:
On February 16 2012 11:01 Belial88 wrote:
Any gamer can with any race. Anyone can if they play deathball Protoss (not a balance whine, i'm just stating that if you turtle a deathball, you need less skill to pull it off to get to masters, especially since lower level people can't pull off the macro or aggression to 'counter' it and low masters is low level, and mech isn't really viable in all of the 3 match-ups and not as hard to deal with as zerg, you might actually need skill to do it in tvz).

For the average person, yea. If you play 2,000 games (not even sure on the exact number, probably less, whatever) you will definitely be masters though, provided you are at least like 17 years old.

So here is my plan:...


Dude... your plan is horrible. You aren't getting it.

1. Yes, demuslim is a beast, but you are nowhere near his level, 99% of masters players are seriously like bronze to a diamond compared to him, and you are better off PLAYING.

In fact, when I was diamond, and first realized I 'could' hit masters, I made a vow to stop watching tournaments, stop watching streams, stop posting on TL, stop posting on any forum, stop watching VODs, stop watching day9. Suffice to say, i hit masters almost within a week.

You just have to PLAY. How much time have you spent on just in this thread alone? An hour already? That's easily 2 games. All the time you waste watching stuff, yea you may learn stuff, but you would've learned a LOT more playing. Not to mention, anyone below high masters is at a level of play where you'd just learn way more by playing the game, and learning it for yourself. Plus, you can't do what Demuslim does, he's 'above ladder', he could do some serious troll stuff and get away with it because he's that good. So maybe some of his play is trolling, maybe he does it but doesn't realize it's not viable against an MVP caliber opponent, maybe he does, but either way you are better off PLAYING.

2. You are way too low level to get coaching. All a coach will do is say "yea man just do this build ezpz get masters pay me $20" or "build probes, build pylons". Get a coach once you hit high masters. Or I mean go for it, it's your money, it's only a bit of time. But you really don't need a coach. You just need to know how to be critical of yourself, and understand you macro like total shit. Because unless you are high masters, it's true that you actually macro like total shit. Myself included (mid masters).

3. You want to play. Maybe join a chat channel and ask to play better people than you, but focus more on playing, not joining social groups.

4. You can do whatever builds you want. It's your macro that's a problem.

In short, you need to PLAY more. Get off the forums. Completely disassociate from every tournament, every vod, every pro, every stream. I strongly recommend, that if you want to hit masters, you should not watch any tournaments or anything or even visit reddit or TL (especially reddit).

Just get out there and play dude. Masters really isn't high level at all, and even if it was, you are just holding yourself back by not playing. I guarentee you, you play 2,000 games, you'll easily be masters.


I don't agree with this.

I watch pro streams and tournaments once in a while, but probably 95% of my SC2 time is spent laddering. I have a touch over 700 ladder wins lifetime in 1v1, which (if we assume 50% win rate) probably puts me at around 1450 games played.

I am in Platinum. I would like to say I'm high Platinum, but realistically I think low-mid is more accurate, since I usually struggle to stay consistently in the top 8 in my division. It may be that if I play another 550 games I'll be in Masters, but I very much doubt it. 550 games ago I was in Platinum, around the same level I am now.

Coincidentally(?) I am about the same age as the OP.

While I think all the encouragement the OP has received on this thread has been great, if anything I think posts like this just confirm the OP's point about skill levels. In my experience, reaching Masters is nowhere near as simple as just playing 2000 games. Belial88 says that it was that simple for him, and I have no reason to doubt him (plenty of others on this thread have expressed similar sentiments) so I conclude that his experience of learning SC2 and my experience have been quite different in some fundamental ways, and there are things that came naturally to him that don't to me.


There's no such thing as high or low Platinum, due to how the ranking system works. Only the 'top' rank is where points/ranking mean anything, since low level people can be stuck in Plat due to inaccurate MMR, or and 'high' people just being promoted.

I would also argue that if you played instead of watching pros and streams, you would be higher ranked.


That's my whole point - I hardly ever watch pros and streams. 95% of my SC2 time is just playing. I am a perfect case study.

It's not exactly a convincing argument when you are saying "Look how successful I am! I a pizza delivery driver!"


I don't think you are understanding me. I'm saying nothing of the kind. I am saying that I am unsuccessful because I'm only Platinum after 1500 games. (At least by TL standards, which are my standards as well or I wouldn't be here).

Also, I'm pretty sure everyone who's played 2,000 games and is somewhat matured (ie not 13 years old, no handicap) is masters. If the number is wrong, the number is wrong, but you play 10,000 games, you WILL be masters. Someone else can say more accurately what the number is that 99% of people hit masters once having played that many games, but you get my point, and it's not exactly that many games. I'd also hazard that, besides BW experience and such, like 90% of people hit masters in roughly the same number of games.


It is hard to get a source for this stat, but we could look at the number of players who have won at least 300 games in the most recent season for example, which SC2Ranks can tell us. I suspect most of these would have >2000 games total overall, certainly if they've been playing at the same rate for a while.

There were:

33 players worldwide in GM with >300 wins last season (http://www.sc2ranks.com/ranks/all/grandmaster/1/all/wins)
154 players worldwide in Masters with >300 wins last season (http://www.sc2ranks.com/ranks/all/master/1/all/wins/100)
123 players in Diamond with >300 wins (http://www.sc2ranks.com/ranks/all/diamond/1/all/wins/100)
125 players in Platinum with >300 wins (http://www.sc2ranks.com/ranks/all/platinum/1/all/wins/100)
136 players in Gold with >300 wins (http://www.sc2ranks.com/ranks/all/gold/1/all/wins/100)
150 players in Silver with >300 wins (http://www.sc2ranks.com/ranks/all/silver/1/all/wins/100)
783 players in Bronze with >300 wins (http://www.sc2ranks.com/ranks/all/bronze/1/all/wins/700)

I wouldn't put too much stock in the Bronze number as I suspect most of them are portrait farmers, but even leaving them out, that means that 26% of the players with >300 wins above Silver are Masters or higher. Granted that's a much bigger number than 2% (total Masters population) but it's way short of the 99% figure you are talking about. I think there is definite evidence that playing a lot of games tends to improve people's rating on average, but (in my opinion) there is also pretty clear evidence that many SC2 players 'cap out' at a particular rating no matter how many games they play. Maybe you don't happen to be among them, but they are still a pretty significant percentage of the overall population.

Granted this isn't a perfect data set, but it is consistent with my own experience - maybe every 2nd or 3rd opponent I get on ladder in Platinum has 700 to 1000 total league wins, meaning they aren't far off your 2000 games number. There are a lot more of us out there than you think, and your experience of how easy it is to reach Masters is not typical.

I also think that over 99% of the people who played BW ICCUP, are at least Masters. That just goes to show that Masters ain't no thing. I'm not saying BW pros, I'm just saying anyone who even played BW. I mean I was bronze at one point, zero RTS history.

Diamond, is definitely something that ANYONE can achieve, even non-gamers. If you are in Plat, that's just lack of games put under your belt. I'm not trying to be insulting, but play a good 1,000 games, you'll be diamond. You aren't far from it as it is anyways.


I already told you in my first post that I had played around 1450 ladder games in total, and I'm nowhere near Diamond.

By the way, I am not disputing the premise that anyone CAN reach Diamond or Masters (if I didn't believe that, I probably wouldn't still be playing). I just don't think that most do in practice, and (for most people) I don't think that "just play more games" is the answer.
DreamChaser
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
1649 Posts
February 17 2012 03:23 GMT
#208
Yes, just because you may not get there as fast as others doesn't mean you wont get their with dedication and tenacity. No matter how difficult anything (in life too) is as long as you really want it theres nothing stopping you but yourself.
Plays against every MU with nexus first.
Charon1979
Profile Joined October 2010
Austria317 Posts
February 17 2012 10:43 GMT
#209
I for my part was promoted into Gold at S1, got to Platinum S2 and stuck there till now where i got demoted to Gold again (dint play 2 seasons)
But i feel i cant improve any more. I used to play often (got my 1000 wins in S3) but was unable to improve.
I still die to 2 base all-ins, i still have problems scouting, i still habe problems attacking, hellion expand literally kills me and drops/small zealot warpins make me fall apart.
I see them, in theory i know how to handle it but i lack the reaction.
shivver
Profile Joined June 2011
United States232 Posts
February 17 2012 15:21 GMT
#210
I can tell you that the difference for me since obtaining masters is simply knowing what to do.. that's it and as simple as it sounds, that's really what is holding everyone back for the most part.

I practice with a grandmaster and have been since I was platinum and just having the knowledge of what to do and what not to do is really what it all came down too. It doesn't matter if you don't miss a single scv up to 70, and never get supply blocked etc. etc. if you're doing small things you don't realize that are giving away your position, you're still going to lose.

I would advise lessons from someone that is very good at explaining the game, finding that person is the hard part.
Poopi
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
France12795 Posts
February 17 2012 15:37 GMT
#211
On February 17 2012 07:39 Kaitokid wrote:
3h a day is actually a lot. Best use of those 3h would probably be watching like 1 Terran replay/stream game of a player whos good and you like and then spam laddergames without interruption. Watch replays of yourself losing when you don't know what your opponent did, but in my opinion the statistics after the game already tell a lot...

Achieving average masters level is extremely easy and I am certain anyone can do it even without a lot of effort.

Yeah I always wondered why everyone wants to watch replays of lost games on ladder (Of course it would be necessary to watch it for pro in tourney play) despite the fact that graph + what you remember of the game and you know when and why you got behind :x
WriterMaru
Blazinghand *
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
United States25551 Posts
February 17 2012 15:41 GMT
#212
On February 18 2012 00:37 Poopi wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 17 2012 07:39 Kaitokid wrote:
3h a day is actually a lot. Best use of those 3h would probably be watching like 1 Terran replay/stream game of a player whos good and you like and then spam laddergames without interruption. Watch replays of yourself losing when you don't know what your opponent did, but in my opinion the statistics after the game already tell a lot...

Achieving average masters level is extremely easy and I am certain anyone can do it even without a lot of effort.

Yeah I always wondered why everyone wants to watch replays of lost games on ladder (Of course it would be necessary to watch it for pro in tourney play) despite the fact that graph + what you remember of the game and you know when and why you got behind :x


Watching a replay is a good tool imo if you don't know why you lost. Like, if you obviously didn't macro well or move-commanded your army then I could see how it's not necessary, but if you don't know how you lost, easiest way to find out and not make that mistake in the future is to go through the replay.
When you stare into the iCCup, the iCCup stares back.
TL+ Member
Heweree
Profile Joined July 2011
United Kingdom497 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-02-17 17:29:27
February 17 2012 17:28 GMT
#213
Hummm, I think it has a lot to do with your age and the lack of experience in RTS.

I was pretty good at wc3, I achieved Master in less than 150 wins in 1v1. Nowadays I can play only one month out of 4, and the month I can play I play like 2-3 games average. I'm still mid master level.

The experience in RTS allowed me to have some automatisms, and my relative young age makes it easier to "muscle" memorize.

It's like any sport, starting it late makes it way harder. But if you achieve master at 38 yo, gratz !

And even though the general TL mindset is : there is no such thing like talent, only hardwork. I don't believe it at all, they are things you are more or less gifted for. For example I can't fuckin draw, even when I was little. I'm a really bad bad musician as well. But for sc2, most of the guys at my level have something like 3-4 times my number games. And I don't watch all my replays like a mad man. Actually I just watch the replays when I win, to congratulate myself xD
Clazziquai10
Profile Blog Joined August 2011
Singapore1949 Posts
February 17 2012 17:47 GMT
#214
Lol I have 1.5k wins and abt 3k games played and im diamond
Forbidden17
Profile Joined December 2011
666 Posts
February 17 2012 20:21 GMT
#215
On February 18 2012 02:47 Clazziquai10 wrote:
Lol I have 1.5k wins and abt 3k games played and im diamond

which probably means you're making the same mistakes every game without knowing. Ask someone better than you to watch your replays! Or get a coach etc.
perser84
Profile Joined October 2010
Germany399 Posts
February 17 2012 20:31 GMT
#216
i was diamond last season and got masters before the season ended

all you need are for each match up
a good built
and you need to execute properly

my advice is pratice partners because they have intel of their races that you dont
so you will know what for example zerg or terran is afraid of what you should exploit and what not
your problem is you do something wrong

most of the time like macro or not execute your built well
watch stream from good players and learn from them
and i dont mean super pros gm/master level is enough
Drorctopus
Profile Joined October 2010
Netherlands135 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-02-17 20:35:09
February 17 2012 20:34 GMT
#217
I was diamond after about 400-450 games played, and probably 350 of those were with my main race which is zerg. I have no previous RTS experience.
Westman
Profile Joined March 2011
Sweden27 Posts
February 17 2012 20:52 GMT
#218
I used to play Age of Empires, but only at my friends place and we just thought that monks were cool and saw what they could do. That's basically my experience in RTS prior to Sc2. I had not even heard of brood war before starcraft 2 came out. I decided in march, april 2011 to start playing, and through my placement matches I was selected into Gold.

After some time, I was demoted to Silver. That's when I started watching streams/tournaments/shows about sc2.
I have been steadily improving since and just made it into Master this season. I play an average of 7games/week but it depends on school and such.


To answer your question: If you want to improve, and take it serious, there should be no problem of you making it into master!
Belial88
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States5217 Posts
February 17 2012 22:15 GMT
#219
On February 18 2012 02:47 Clazziquai10 wrote:
Lol I have 1.5k wins and abt 3k games played and im diamond


What area? How old are you? Do you get matched against masters at all?

I'm sure you'll be masters when you hit 2k.
How to build a $500 i7-3770K Ultimate Computer:http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?topic_id=392709 ******** 100% Safe Razorless Delid Method! http://www.overclock.net/t/1376206/how-to-delid-your-ivy-bridge-cpu-with-out-a-razor-blade/0_100
joyeaux
Profile Joined May 2005
United States169 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-02-18 04:14:16
February 18 2012 04:14 GMT
#220
On February 16 2012 03:52 SoulWager wrote:
If you have two functioning limbs, one functioning eye, and a functioning brain, you can be masters at sc2.


You forgot "practice"
EtherealDeath
Profile Blog Joined July 2007
United States8366 Posts
February 18 2012 04:22 GMT
#221
Yes and no. Outside of special circumstances it is simply time dependent unless one is simply dim witted, which you don't appear to be. For instance even a total noob should be masters within a couple months of focused, intense training of they had 6 hours a day to practice and also watched lots of to level games.
Powerstrike
Profile Joined July 2010
50 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-02-18 04:40:34
February 18 2012 04:39 GMT
#222
Well there are no set rules, I personally am always high masters yet i play 2-3 games 1v1 a day some days more, some days none. APM - you shouldn't even look at this until your grandmaster lol. APM is a stupid statistic, which can be used only during a perfect play, else you can have 5000 apm yet, get supply blocked, lose units, etc. If you "hit this wall" you should look at your play, your builds, what your replays, then watch some pro replays, acknowledge your mistakes and try to improve, also try to work on small things like scv spliting, rally. map vision doing all this will increase ur mechanics. Also consider the map you play on it's really important, some people just do a single thing w/o caring about the map. Also consider every unit a precious one, don't be like " Oh i killed 5 drones with those hellions, they can just die now ", try to understand the game, outsmart your opponent... And also look at whitera, i don't think age affects him

ps. work on macro and multitasking - most important, micro is when you reach rly high level of play.
LF9
Profile Joined November 2009
United States537 Posts
February 18 2012 04:42 GMT
#223
Honestly dedication is the most important thing. That, and not letting frustration/discouragement get in the way of playing as many games as your life will permit. And going on tilt because you lost a few in a row is also bad obviously. I would say the best way to improve is to not have the goal of getting promoted, but just having the goal of getting better. The best players are the ones who don't have to make themselves play. If you ever get so good you go pro, it can become a chore to actually "train" (practicing against a specific build order that is dominant in your matchup on a specific map that you have to play on 50 games in a row can get kind of frustrating) but otherwise just don't let losing, or even getting your ass kicked get you down. If you get your ass kicked, just tell yourself that the person has probably played 20x more games than you. Realize that if you had played 10,000 1v1 games of SC2 more than he had, you probably would have kicked his ass just as hard, if not harder. A good way to improve is to count the number of games you play, starting tomorrow or whenever. And every single subsequent day, make it your personal goal to play at least ONE MORE game than the previous day. If you keep doing this, you will eventually find out that you have more free time than you think, because you will start having to cut out a lot of time wasting and bullshitting on the internet that a lot of people do that cuts down significantly on their playtime. The main difference between the people in Grandmasters and the people posting on TL asking how to get promoted is that the GM players are playing instead of posting. Limit your browsing time to 30 minutes a day (google chrome even has a tool to let you do this) or whatever you know you do. A lot of people say they get ladder anxiety, I don't know what to tell you about that; why would you be afraid of losing, do you think people seriously judge you on your ladder rank, and your losses? You are anonymous on Battle.net unless you're a progamer using your main id, and there will always be room to grow and get ahead, so consider losing a good thing and let it motivate you. If you won every single game, you would start to get lazy and your play would slip. It happens when really good players are unable to get practice games vs equally good players, hence pros having teamhouses. Even MVP, MMA, DRG, etc. lose ladder games. No one wins all the time, this just isn't that kind of game. Just play, play, play, and have fucking fun.

I like to say, there's a reason people say "good luck, have fun": because there IS an element of luck to the game, no matter how good you are, and after all, it's supposed to be for fun, since again, no matter how good you are, you aren't going to be pro forever and support yourself for life playing a game!
lorkac
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
United States2297 Posts
February 18 2012 17:23 GMT
#224
Let's get to brass tacks.

Only the top 2% can be Masters.

Let's put it this way.

If only 100 people play SC2--only two of them are Masters.

Does everyone have the potential to be in the top 2%? Yes. Could this be done by improving/opponents deproving? Yes. But no matter your skill level, you still won't change the math. Only the top 2 of every 100 players get to be Masters.

Let's put it another way. Are you only slightly worse than the top 80% of the total player base of your region? Then you're Platinum.
By the truth we are undone. Life is a dream. Tis waking that kills us. He who robs us of our dreams robs us of our life --Orlando: A Biography
Bommes
Profile Joined June 2010
Germany1226 Posts
February 18 2012 17:54 GMT
#225
On February 19 2012 02:23 lorkac wrote:
Let's get to brass tacks.

Only the top 2% can be Masters.

Let's put it this way.

If only 100 people play SC2--only two of them are Masters.

Does everyone have the potential to be in the top 2%? Yes. Could this be done by improving/opponents deproving? Yes. But no matter your skill level, you still won't change the math. Only the top 2 of every 100 players get to be Masters.

Let's put it another way. Are you only slightly worse than the top 80% of the total player base of your region? Then you're Platinum.


I think thats a very underlooked point, you can also see this at ICCup in Broodwar, only the most dedicated people still played Broodwar so it was quite decent to be C-/C, even if it was not even near the Top 2% of ICCup.

I think the Master league will get better over time, in 4-5 years from now it will actually be worth something
K3Nyy
Profile Joined February 2010
United States1961 Posts
February 18 2012 17:59 GMT
#226
3 hours a day is enough to get you in GM. Even if age was somehow limited your APM and skill level, it would not affect anywhere near master's league. I think you're overthinking things, it's not that high a level.

APM isn't really about how fast you are, it's just how well you remember to do stuff. (at least APM without spam) When you get better and constantly macro and control your army, your APM will naturally increase.

If there are people with a natural talent in RTS games, it should show further than masters league. It's possible to not play much and still get to masters. As long as they have a basic understanding of the game, they can maintain masters league quite easily.

If you've been playing 3 hours a day since season 1 and have only reached plat, I think it's something fundamentally you're doing wrong. Try to understand why you're doing some things instead of just doing it. Don't practice without trying to improve in mind. If you still feel like you can't improve, just ask like a master player to obs a game or two or yours and tell you what you're doing wrong.
Monkeyballs25
Profile Joined October 2010
531 Posts
February 18 2012 19:18 GMT
#227
On February 19 2012 02:59 K3Nyy wrote:

APM isn't really about how fast you are, it's just how well you remember to do stuff. (at least APM without spam) When you get better and constantly macro and control your army, your APM will naturally increase.


This isn't true. I often encounter situations, especially in the lategame, when I remember and know exactly what I need to do, I just can't execute it quickly enough. I laugh when people say "oh all you need is 60 APM". 60 apm is me playing on a great night

Could I overcome this problem with enough practice? Possibly. But it'd require a *lot* of drilling and repetition, far more than the couple games a day some people here are suggesting.
NostalgiaTag
Profile Blog Joined August 2009
Canada508 Posts
February 18 2012 19:33 GMT
#228
technically not everyone can be masters....there has the be even distribution in leagues =) jkjk

But yeah I think some people have a better spacial control and are able to be better at these games than others.. i dont know if i would say that EVERYONE can be masters, but a large majority of people can become a m,asters player with dedication
Look for the flaw that lost the game not the flaw in the game.
Footler
Profile Joined January 2010
United States560 Posts
February 18 2012 19:33 GMT
#229
Really, you simply just need to be able to analyze your replays and recognize what exactly is holding you back and make concious efforts in game to fix it. Rinse and repeat.

I tried to outline a method that helped me in the spoiler below, obviously it's a lot easier said than done.

+ Show Spoiler +
One thing that really helped me develop as an RTS player back in my BW days was to basically do this - find a few different solid, aggressive (but not all in) opening builds and begin trying to execute them as perfectly as possible. And it needs to be aggressive because this is going to push you to keep track of all the different aspects of the game even if it is just 1-2 bases.

Eventually, you should start executing the builds pretty damn good - ie you are able to be effective with your opening army (not just attack moving) WHILE keeping up worker production, supply, tech/upgrades, chrono/mule/injects, expanding if your aggression permits, etc.

As you improve and fight tougher opponents you should start getting a better feel for when you can safely take that 3rd/4th base and subsequently be able to manage that much more.

Don't get in the mindset that you HAVE to play safe, macro games because this gets you comfortable just flipping between your bases and never really stretches your ability to manage multiple fronts. You need to develop this sort of game sense and multitask ability before you can really take advantage of the benefits the safe, macro builds provide.
I am The-Sink! Parting bandwagoner before it became a soul train.
Skyro
Profile Joined May 2010
United States1823 Posts
February 18 2012 20:44 GMT
#230
On February 19 2012 02:59 K3Nyy wrote:
3 hours a day is enough to get you in GM. Even if age was somehow limited your APM and skill level, it would not affect anywhere near master's league. I think you're overthinking things, it's not that high a level.

APM isn't really about how fast you are, it's just how well you remember to do stuff. (at least APM without spam) When you get better and constantly macro and control your army, your APM will naturally increase.

If there are people with a natural talent in RTS games, it should show further than masters league. It's possible to not play much and still get to masters. As long as they have a basic understanding of the game, they can maintain masters league quite easily.

If you've been playing 3 hours a day since season 1 and have only reached plat, I think it's something fundamentally you're doing wrong. Try to understand why you're doing some things instead of just doing it. Don't practice without trying to improve in mind. If you still feel like you can't improve, just ask like a master player to obs a game or two or yours and tell you what you're doing wrong.


Yeah I feel like people liken APM to something people just naturally have and either you have it or you don't. APM is the product of doing something so often it is hardwired into your brain and thus minimizes your reaction time to perform actions in-game. For example if you only had 1 build and got to the point you performed it perfectly, I guarantee your APM will be significantly higher doing any other build you are not as familiar with.

Although I do disagree with a lot of people in this thead saying grinding X amount of games is anywhere near an efficient way to improve. IMO once you get to the point where you are familiar with the build so you don't have to actively think about it anymore, if you want to improve further you have to consciously force yourself to multi-task above your current level, e.g. say previously you are only used to doing 1 action during the time you are waiting for a round of warp-ins to finish as protoss. As you attempt to improve, you should consciously force yourself to do 2 actions until it is comfortable for you to do so. It is similar to learning how to read faster, in that the trick is actually to just force yourself to read faster until it is comfortable.
Kajarn
Profile Joined September 2010
United States126 Posts
February 18 2012 21:03 GMT
#231
I feel like I was in a similar situation to you. I played 0 RTS games before Starcraft 2, only the occasional Wintermaul Wars in WC3 days. I mostly played World of Warcraft in the years before Starcraft 2s release.
However, I learned quickly, thankfully because the game was new, despite being a new player I was learning along with everyone else.

Today, I believe Masters is MUCH harder, especially with Terran. As a certain Poll thread showed, Terran's learning curve becomes steepest at around the masters level.
Now everyone always posts and says PLAY MORE, but I don't think people quite illustrate what that actually means.

PLAY MORE, requires a certain mentality. With Terran, you should have your first 10 minutes nailed down to a T. Every building, supply depot, and army movement. As you are Platinum, I belive this is the first step.

Next, do everything as fast as you can. make the 10 depot right when you have 100 minerals, get stim the second you have 100 gas, ect. Every second counts.

Lastly, keybind/control group/camera save as much as possible. Be concious to how much you control group every game(should be alot). Get in the habit of using camera saves.

The more you play the better aslong as you are making the concious effort to improve your mechanics.

Here is a tip to try next time you play:
Try constantly reminding yourself to build units out of a barracks as soon you press stim and get the chance. This way even while your attacking or being attacked youll remember to macro or multitask.
Fairwell
Profile Joined July 2011
Austria195 Posts
February 18 2012 21:07 GMT
#232
On February 16 2012 11:01 Belial88 wrote:
Just get out there and play dude. Masters really isn't high level at all, and even if it was, you are just holding yourself back by not playing. I guarentee you, you play 2,000 games, you'll easily be masters.


While this can certainly help it's not necessary. I personally never ever played an RTS game before sc2. I had no clue that I need to make more than 8-9 probes a base, was floating like 1k minerals on one base etc when I started ... when I hit masters I had played like 300-400games in total (right now I still don't have the 750 win portrait for my race yet but I'm doing custom games vs clanmates now ... joined a clan when I reached masters for clanwars etc). I guess it comes down to the person how quickly you can manage to get decent game mechanics. If you are used to play computer games and spend a ton of time on your pc you won't have issues remembering hotkeys etc at all. If you never played any computer games I bet that you start of as quite a terrible player. For me the biggest thing I needed to learn in order to get into masters was what the hell I am supposed to do in those matchups and I learned that by watching some streams and reading TL.

Btw terrantosaur, I'd be willing to help you out a bit for free. If you are interested pm me. I play masters on EU and NA servers. I did some free coaching already and I don't mind helping out. However there is one single thing I'm not willing to do which is repeating for about 100 times an hour that you need to make more workers and units (seems to be a common problem people have until low masters ...). :-)
Ainvar
Profile Joined January 2011
United States68 Posts
February 18 2012 21:42 GMT
#233
On February 19 2012 04:18 Monkeyballs25 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 19 2012 02:59 K3Nyy wrote:

APM isn't really about how fast you are, it's just how well you remember to do stuff. (at least APM without spam) When you get better and constantly macro and control your army, your APM will naturally increase.


This isn't true. I often encounter situations, especially in the lategame, when I remember and know exactly what I need to do, I just can't execute it quickly enough. I laugh when people say "oh all you need is 60 APM". 60 apm is me playing on a great night

Could I overcome this problem with enough practice? Possibly. But it'd require a *lot* of drilling and repetition, far more than the couple games a day some people here are suggesting.

I'm right there with you. What you need is specific repetition of the things you're slow at. Think about piano players. They don't just play through pieces, they practice scales, etc. So the sc2 equivalent is practice marine splitting, or not getting supply blocked, or defending muta harass or whatever. Focus your practice and you will get fast at those things.
RoboBob
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
United States798 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-02-18 22:32:49
February 18 2012 22:21 GMT
#234
I bet you could become masters. I mean look at your progress, you started in bronze, and now you're top platinum. There's no evidence to suggest that you COULDN'T become masters eventually. Even if you are "just" high platinum, that still means that you are equal to or better than 70-80% of the people who play SC2. I think being in the top 20-30% of any competitive event classifies you as "pretty good", unless you're an elitist.

Also consider that there's a LOT fewer people playing SC2 today compared to a year ago. The people who are really good tend to continue playing; the people who suck tend to stop playing. Which is why Silver players today are much better than Silver players from a year ago. So even if you weren't improving in leagues, you'd still be improving in skill.

Another important thing to remember is that TL is, by nature, a very elitist community. I would not be surprised if Masters players vastly outnumber Bronze players on this site. If you are a low league player who gets discouraged easily, then spending too much time on TL.net could actually make you feel like you are worse than you actually are.
zaradron
Profile Joined January 2012
Canada15 Posts
February 18 2012 23:05 GMT
#235
I think that anyone can make it to masters league if they put enough time and effort in. If someone plays a lot, and watches vods, they could make it to masters after a lot of effort. APM also doesn't mean much. I've played against people in masters who have under 60 APM, but have good macro an good mechanics and it's a close game. I started out at like 20ish APM, and have played since release an now my APM is 150ish, and I'm a high masters Zerg. There will always be people In masters, and top leagues in other games that don't put in much effort but have the skills to be there.
Belha
Profile Joined December 2010
Italy2850 Posts
February 19 2012 00:33 GMT
#236
No, not anyone.

But despite what many say, you do not need a lot of "hand skill" just to be a master, you need to be smart and have a faster brain than higher apm.
Helping some friends (i'm mid/top master in na) i find that their analysis of the game is pretty superficial, they usually can't see stuff that i find pretty obvious; and during the games that became much worse.
That's why some players can be in masters with just some games of practice, they are just smarter and can understand deeper stuff ni much faster and better way.
That's imo the big difference.
Chicken gank op
rOse_PedaL
Profile Blog Joined January 2012
Korea (South)450 Posts
February 19 2012 01:05 GMT
#237
if you believe you can achieve
¯\_(ツ)_/¯ ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ MKP HWAITING ಠ_ಠ ಠ_ಠ
DemonDeacon
Profile Joined February 2012
United States158 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-02-22 08:39:00
February 22 2012 08:34 GMT
#238
On February 17 2012 07:37 Bonneyi wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 17 2012 07:27 Nightshade_ wrote:
On February 16 2012 03:59 CrtBalorda wrote:
1. Anyone can be masters
2. Masters still sucks

This sadly is true. Masters is the top 2%, unfortunately, only the top .75% can be considered good.


I heard that this also depends on the region , for example KR is tougher than NA and so on .

I feel like just playing a lot is not helping me , i played 1500 games and im heading to diamond soon , im kindoff worried and feel like im doing something wrong , ust not sure what .


less than 400 games and got into masters league : / might be a mechanics/gameplay issue
gg
Hotshot_NA
Profile Joined May 2011
Australia12 Posts
February 22 2012 08:46 GMT
#239
yes you can be masters...a lot of people are talking about putting extended hours into it....but i think if you practice in a smart/productive way as opposed to slogging out countless hours you can get there too.

I had minimal RTS experience, playing a little bit of broodwar (off-line) and a little age of empires...i came into SC2 season 1 and qualified for bronze league 1v1....

i have a full time job (work 8-6pm monday to friday), travel overseas for about 3 months of the year (at seperate times where i dont have access to play the game) and was completeing my university degree up until last november..also play sport 4 times a week..basically what im saying is that i was able to play for an hour or so a day at BEST and a couple hours on the weekend here and there....

by watching pro-level games and getting some basic concepts down i was at diamond before the end of season 1. (i had played about 60 1v1 games total)

i had much more fun playing team games so i gave up on 1v1 for about 3-4 seasons and got my masters 2v2, 3v3 and 4v4 (random team and actual team).... anyway this season i decided to push for that 1v1 masters icon and since season 6 launch i have gone 38 wins from 48 games on my NA account to reach rank 8 masters..

anyway, the point is...i, like you have a full time job and lots of outside work activities that take up most of my time...i barely have any time for SC2 (as much as i love it and would spend all my time on it)....however if you pratice the right things you will get to masters eventually.. oh and by the way..my APM would sit below 100 average...

goodluck to you!
Dialogue
Profile Joined November 2010
Singapore125 Posts
February 22 2012 08:55 GMT
#240
On February 18 2012 13:42 LF9 wrote:
Honestly dedication is the most important thing. That, and not letting frustration/discouragement get in the way of playing as many games as your life will permit. And going on tilt because you lost a few in a row is also bad obviously. I would say the best way to improve is to not have the goal of getting promoted, but just having the goal of getting better. The best players are the ones who don't have to make themselves play. If you ever get so good you go pro, it can become a chore to actually "train" (practicing against a specific build order that is dominant in your matchup on a specific map that you have to play on 50 games in a row can get kind of frustrating) but otherwise just don't let losing, or even getting your ass kicked get you down. If you get your ass kicked, just tell yourself that the person has probably played 20x more games than you. Realize that if you had played 10,000 1v1 games of SC2 more than he had, you probably would have kicked his ass just as hard, if not harder. A good way to improve is to count the number of games you play, starting tomorrow or whenever. And every single subsequent day, make it your personal goal to play at least ONE MORE game than the previous day. If you keep doing this, you will eventually find out that you have more free time than you think, because you will start having to cut out a lot of time wasting and bullshitting on the internet that a lot of people do that cuts down significantly on their playtime. The main difference between the people in Grandmasters and the people posting on TL asking how to get promoted is that the GM players are playing instead of posting. Limit your browsing time to 30 minutes a day (google chrome even has a tool to let you do this) or whatever you know you do. A lot of people say they get ladder anxiety, I don't know what to tell you about that; why would you be afraid of losing, do you think people seriously judge you on your ladder rank, and your losses? You are anonymous on Battle.net unless you're a progamer using your main id, and there will always be room to grow and get ahead, so consider losing a good thing and let it motivate you. If you won every single game, you would start to get lazy and your play would slip. It happens when really good players are unable to get practice games vs equally good players, hence pros having teamhouses. Even MVP, MMA, DRG, etc. lose ladder games. No one wins all the time, this just isn't that kind of game. Just play, play, play, and have fucking fun.

I like to say, there's a reason people say "good luck, have fun": because there IS an element of luck to the game, no matter how good you are, and after all, it's supposed to be for fun, since again, no matter how good you are, you aren't going to be pro forever and support yourself for life playing a game!

You have changed my whole outlook on the game. Thanks for this. Awesome read.
ixi.genocide
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
United States981 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-02-22 09:29:53
February 22 2012 09:29 GMT
#241
It seems to me that a big problem for me (and I'm sure quite a bit of other people) is not knowing the proper build orders. I play Z at a Dia level and based on masters players watching me play and looking at masters lvl games I think that I have the mechanics and game knowledge to make it to masters but I really don't know where to pick up builds and meta information. I have a solid ZvP, used to have a good ZvT and ZvZ but now both of these mu's seem to be just different to me after not being able to play for a couple months.

ZvT I used to aim for 11 minute mutas while getting a strong 2 base eco and then getting my third as I get my first 7 or so mutas. Now the terrans (at least at Dia lvl) just make a ton of turrets blindly and go for heavy marine play instead of tank biomech. I don't want to do infester/ling and I want to focus on muta play but it seems that the terran can produce more marines/medivacs off of 2-3 base than I can produce ling/bane to stop it. They seem to just start attacking and continue for like 5 minutes while I slowly run out of larvae and thus lings/banes.

I do 14h, 16p, 18 double queen, 2 sets of lings, ovie, drone heavily while making ling/spines as appropriately. then I go for 4 gas at about 44 food and then go for lair>spire. This typically puts me in to the midgame ahead in eco and I go for heavy upgrades on my lings.

ZvZ I try to open 14g/14p and do baneling wars, but I really want to do 15h more. Every time I do though I lose horribly especially when he goes for a pool before hatch. I tend to win the late game if we go in even but typically I am so far behind it is a lost cause. this is also my least developed mu because I really don't know how to tell I am ahead unless it is blatantly obvious. if someone could help me I would appreciate it!!!

ZvT[http://drop.sc/117819

ZvZ[http://drop.sc/117820
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