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[H][D] Can 'anyone' be Masters? - Page 3

Forum Index > StarCraft 2 Strategy
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Tal0n
Profile Joined April 2010
United States175 Posts
February 15 2012 20:31 GMT
#41
just as a general comment: anyone who is willing to adept their mindset towards what seems to be "good" (listen to artosis!) will be able to get into masters eventually as long as you play consistently. there is no need to play 3 hours a day. that merely speeds up the process. if you gradually improve and don't needlessly rage (or anything alike) but instead look for ways to get better, you can be masters.
abefroman
Profile Joined December 2010
70 Posts
February 15 2012 20:31 GMT
#42
On February 16 2012 05:23 Sianos wrote:
Everyone can be Masters if they focus on important things. I have seen Master Players which were really bad -> A lot of Supply Blocks -> A lot of overres -> no minimap awarenes. But he was Masters and i´m Diamond. Even on a bad day, my macro would be way more better then his, but i really suck at engagements and i think that´s what holds me down.

You have to improve step by step. The first thing is to have a gameplan, which contains the unit composition in the lategame, the unit composition in the midgame and the way you get there. You don´t need exact BOs for it, but you should thing in terms of tech. In which order do i get my unit composition to the midgame and in which order do i transition into my lategame composition. That´s the first step to do. This is really easy done, by just copying a Standard build from a programer.

The next step is to improve your Macro and your Mechanics. Use hotkeys for your units and your production buildings and try to keep your money low -> no supply block -> no idle production facilities -> no overres. Then you look at the things you die to until reaching the lategame and try to find ways for scouting and adapting correctly.

Alone with doing this things well, you can easily get into Diamond. That´s how i got there and i´m in a similar position as you. No RTS before SC2 release and i just play max 3-5 Games a day. Then it´s time to focus on engagements and multiprogned herrass/attacks. At the beginning i had like 30 apm, but i´m able to have 120 EAPM and this is just the profit from macroing your stuff. At the beginning you can´t do all these apm intesive things, so you have to focus on the basics and stay there until you can do this second nature. Your APM will also improve through this and you will be able to do additional things.

GL HF in your SC2 tourney.


I think you underestimate the difficulty of coming up with a gameplan...which I believe to be my biggest problem in my zvt and zvz.

I can watch pro games, or look on the forums, and see that everyone, for example does and/or should go muta/ling/baneling. However...i don't know why I'm getting those units, or what to use them for....because they seem to always die without killing anything. So every game I'm sitting there wondering...should I make more of this? Maybe the lings aren't going to be good if he has a lot of tnaks? More mutas? Maybe it's all crap and I should just make drones and get a hive!! Then I look up and realize I've missed injects, I'm down 30 supply, and have 1500 banked because I don't understand the matchup at all.

Contrast that with my zvp....where I actually do understand things in a basic sense. Protoss FFE. Ok i take a 3rd. Drone like crazy. get roaches and lair. Lots of roaches. Throw down hydra den to reinforce against a push. Make spire in preparation. Pressure toss 3rd. Make a bunch of corrupters if i see colossis. Win.
Glurkenspurk
Profile Joined November 2010
United States1915 Posts
February 15 2012 20:36 GMT
#43
Master league is not particularly high level play. People act like it's remotely close to being a progamer. It isn't. Find a build for each matchup, gain a little bit of game knowledge> boom, masters.
ThePlayer33
Profile Joined October 2011
Australia2378 Posts
February 15 2012 20:40 GMT
#44
On February 16 2012 03:59 CrtBalorda wrote:
1. Anyone can be masters
2. Masters still sucks


ya agreed. awful, some might say.
| Idra | YuGiOh | Leenock | Coca |
black3200
Profile Joined August 2010
Canada74 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-02-15 20:43:29
February 15 2012 20:40 GMT
#45
I never played a RTS untill sc2 and i started in gold, to get to master isnt that hard, if you are willing to do what it takes to get there.. however once you hit mid master.. That is when Casual and competitive Split IMO. As you know just like with anything as you get better you have to work harder to become even better. So

I think you can make it to masters, i feel almost anyone can. If you cant do it it prob because you are not putting the time you need to get there.. some people ( koreans ) are born with 200 apm and 1000pts in master. But us mortals need many many hours of time.

APM wise it was said many times you just get faster as you get more comfortable with the game. For example i have a avg of about 90 apm.. ( im low master now ). But when i was plat i had a very hard time keeping that apm when shit started getting "Real" .. or Crisis management then my apm drops to 20.. and i kinda fall apart. After being cheesed/rushed/ Naniwaed countless times you start to stay calm during that cloak banshee or w/e and end up doing better...


I also do poorly when i have a bad day at work or i want to kill my wife <-- ( I AM KIDDING ) so i just avoid playing sc2 all together or i call those the days where i watch streams/pros read forum ( like today ) and post in /r/starcraft.

Alot of people say you have Natural talent to be good.. I dont feel that is accurate at all, unless you are mentally restricted then anyone can at least get to master.. to be more then that takes a level of dedication that us nubs dont have or not willing to do so.

IMO there is no "Skill Wall" just at that point which is different for all you have to "step your game up" And put more effort, you should talk to some pro ( which ever you can get a hold of and will talk back.) and just ask him how much time he puts into sc2.

My cousin is a Bronze toss ( hahah i know right Toss Bronze?!) but when he plays hes rages about imba ect.. so one day i told him i will help you improve. I suggest some simple like a 3 gate robo off 1 base ect.. if i tell him what to do he does well and can win... but once he is left to his own devices all the sudden Mother ship rush /cannon every game / dt / Vr.. im sure you know since he is bronze they are not done well at all and he losses.. so i tell him to stop doing that and he wont listen .. thus he stays in bronze.

TL:DR - You can do anything and get anywhere, just are you willing to sacrifice IRL for more SC2,
Give them nothing,But take from them..... everything!
hunts
Profile Joined September 2010
United States2113 Posts
February 15 2012 20:48 GMT
#46
I started out in copper in beta, made my way up thru every league over time and got into masters a few weeks after it opened up. I've been stuck in about mid masters since. I honnestly think anyone can get to masters, and anyone can get to GM by all inning or playing gimmicky if they spam enough games. Not everyone can get into GM by playing standard and improving their way into it rather than cheesing/all inning/spamming games, and definitely not everyone can go pro. But that's just my opinion based on my experience and that of people I know.
twitch.tv/huntstv 7x legend streamer
chip789
Profile Joined June 2010
Canada199 Posts
February 15 2012 20:50 GMT
#47
Becoming masters in season 6 is different then becoming masters in season 1. Back then not everyone on ladder was dedicated starcraft player. If you still play this game, it's cause you are dedicated and love starcraft. WHich means you are generally good.
Dude....I love Starcraft.
SupLilSon
Profile Joined October 2011
Malaysia4123 Posts
February 15 2012 20:53 GMT
#48
Yea, I truly believe anyone can get to masters. I've been playing RTS games since I can remember (Red Alert was one of my earliest gaming memories) but never ever until SC2 did I try to be competitive. Season 1 I started in silver and worked my way up to diamond through practice and watching Day9 Daily's. It took me until this season to hit masters but I did. Those people who seemed to just magically or naturally be master quality probably played a lot of BW or WC3 at a semi serious level.

APM will not limit how high on the ladder you can climb. There are a few pro players with very average APM. However, you should probably model your builds and gameplay with your APM in mind. Don't try to emmulate fOrGG's super harrassment style builds if you know you can't play above 100 APM, you simply won't be able to pull it off.

That brings me to what I believe is the most important bit of information. At least in my opinion, to get better you need to get simple. For me, the turning point from being high diamond to beating masters players was picking a very few select builds and playing those builds almost exclusively. Pick 1-2 builds for each matchup that you like playing and practice them over and over and over. With time, these builds will become very reliable for you as you learn how to adapt and transition with them. I think many aspiring players try to get good at too many builds and realistically become mediocre at a handful of strategies but not a master in any.

Overall, anyone can get to masters if they set their mind to it (outside of KR, masters really isn't that high of a skill level). But IMO, the fastest way to improve is to standardize your gameplay and really focus on becomming super good at a few select builds.
tUUTZ
Profile Joined July 2011
Finland122 Posts
February 15 2012 20:53 GMT
#49
I'm master and I'm fucking awful, so yes everyone can be in Master league.
Reason.SC2
Profile Joined April 2010
Canada1047 Posts
February 15 2012 21:10 GMT
#50
On February 16 2012 03:34 terrantosaur wrote:
So to my questions:

1) Does this (slow) rate of progress indicate that I have roughly ‘found my level’? Ie I will be high Plat/low Diamond maybe but not much better.

2) Will I be naturally capped by my low APM? Is APM like IQ ie it doesn’t really change that much over time. Or can anyone provide examples of how there APM has improved markedly?

3) Are there people in the Masters league who don’t have to practise that much to be that good? Ie is there such a thing as ‘natural talent’ in SC2 or is it basically application?

My practice at the moment consists of laddering and watching professional games. I do not have partners to play with and I’ve never had coaching. I am sure it is fair to say that both would benefit me but can anyone say they’ve improved dramatically as a result of either/both? If so, are these people who actually have a sh*tload more time to play than I do? Ie might I be better just carrying on laddering until I win the lottery and can play full time?

I wasn't sure a 'replay' was necessary for these sorts of questions. Happy to provide if necessary.

Simon


Starcraft 2 is my first RTS game that I actually tried playing online vs other people. I started at age 25. I am in master league and have been since it was first introduced way back when. I also work full time and do not have time for more than an average of 2-3 games per day.

To your questions:
1) Slow rate of progress doesn't mean you've plateaued for good. It could be that your practice regime isn't suited to learning play at a higher level, or that you have developed some bad habits along the way... habits you can get by with in plat but will be punished for at higher leagues. Or perhaps you need to try new things in the way that you approach the game - sometimes it can be very helpful to spend a week or two playing the other races to get a better feel for how they think in your matchup. Maybe you need to do some replay analysis, or perhaps you've been doing too much. It's hard to tell... but if you're not improving, just try something different and keep at it.

2) You will be naturally capped by your low APM, but there are grandmaster players with sub 100 eAPM. So yeah, but the cap is much higher than where you're at. And APM *can* change drastically over time. When I first started playing during beta (diamond league was the highest then), my apm was 60-90. Through playing more, and not even by focusing on apm as a point of improvement, my apm has gone up to 150-200. Same race, similar builds, just having played more games has made much of the game muscle memory, so instead of spending a split second thinking of what needs to be done next, it is done automatically. This drastically will improve your apm.

Think of it this way, if you can type at lets say even just 60 words per minute (which afaik isn't even considered fast), that's 300 apm if the average word is 4 characters + a space. You are probably easily physically capable of a lot faster play, you just need to 'get into the rhythm' by knowing exactly what to do next at all times and staying active during the entirety of the game.

3) Some people are more predisposed than others to perform well at rts games. It is a fact of life, but this doesn't necessarily have an effect on your personal skill cap. I'd say that much of the 'predisposition to being good at starcraft' has to do with the fact that some people are more driven to put in time to practice and get better. Natural talent is a factor, but not a very significant one imo.

As for coaching, given that you are probably short on time, but decent on money, I would actually recommend having a few sessions. It will likely be extremely helpful and you will probably notice immediate results. Of course, the coaching won't be useful unless you apply what you learn in the sessions to a bunch of ladder/practice games, so try to do both!


Improving at sc is much tougher when you have a limited amount of time... but believe me it isn't impossible. So long as the competitive fire burns within you, keep playing. You will improve, and you will get that master league logo soon enough
Ruscour
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
5233 Posts
February 15 2012 21:17 GMT
#51
Masters is nothing special, not even GM. If you play often enough you can get there. Masters is the top 2%, imagine one in 50 people who play this game are in Masters. That's a pretty high number. It's really not hard, you certainly don't have to be talented...I did it, and I have the multitasking of a brick wall.
VashTS
Profile Joined September 2010
United States1675 Posts
February 15 2012 21:30 GMT
#52
IMO, anybody able to put time and even slight effort into this game can become Masters.
VashTS; 330; Random -- Ranked #9 Pokemon Video Game Player in the World in 2009
PandaMonk
Profile Joined June 2011
United States300 Posts
February 15 2012 21:35 GMT
#53
I feel like playing in isolation is only a problem if you have ladder anxiety, having a buddy near your level helps you motivate you click the find battle button. I think as long as you play smart you could definetly get to masters with good time investment. Axeslav used to only have like 80 apm and was a PRO. Most def. possible. GOGO, YOU CAN DO IT
Alfalfa
Profile Joined November 2010
Canada26 Posts
February 15 2012 21:40 GMT
#54
Well, from my experience, I started bronze league in season 1 and finished the season in plat and I'm stuck there since the end of season 1... I think that it is possible to cap mainly because of the dexterity (APM) required to play the game. I do not have enough skills to be better than plat so I'll probably stay there until SC3 is released XD. This is the only rts game I ever played, so it could be one of the reason I am not good at the game because I am fairly good in other types of games such as DOTA-genre or FPS, but SC2 is way too hard for me. But it is probably different from one person to another so if your goal is to become master, just keep working hard!!
Arterial
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
Australia1039 Posts
February 15 2012 21:53 GMT
#55
I had previous RTS experience in BW, WC3, DoW and CoH and when I started playing SC2 in beta, I was put in copper league. Come release and I got put into bronze. I spent a fair amount of time practicing and now im mid-masters.

Honestly, it's ALL about practice and playing a lot. I rarely ever watched replays and my macro was atrocious up until when I hit masters. Not to say that you should have bad macro too though.

Masters is not impossible to achieve. Keep playing. If you ever lose a game on ladder, and you REALIZE what you did wrong, you'll keep progressing.
savior & jaedong
Shmu
Profile Joined February 2011
Canada27 Posts
February 15 2012 21:54 GMT
#56
from one Simon to another - I believe you can do it.

I'm 27, with only casual experience in RTS, and a (more than) full time job; I can only manage to play maybe 10-15 games a week - usually just enough to use up my bonus pool. Through playing consistantly and balancing my time between watching pros, studying builds, and laddering I've been able to make it from silver (at release) up to Platinum (Just placed this season).

I know by focusing on solid play, and learning from my mistakes, I will make it to Masters - and you can too!
fighter2_40
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
United States420 Posts
February 15 2012 21:57 GMT
#57
I think anyone can make masters as long as the have a consistent strategy for training. If you play 3 games a day and make deep analysis of your replays right after you lose a game, you'll learn more about your weaknesses and what you need to improve than if you just massed games.

Also, it's important to focus on one build per matchup and perfecting it, not just having a wide variety of builds until you've reached at least high diamond proficiency. (that being said the build you are trying to perfect should be a standard build in order to learn more about how the game is currently)

As for apm, it's not like iq where it's very hard to increase. I started playing at around 70 apm but moved up to 100 after getting used to the interface. After that by playing the ums map multitasking trainer, i was able to increase my apm to around 115-140 prepatch. Now it's sitting at around 100-110 post patch. Case in point, apm can be increased dramatically.
unix04
Profile Joined November 2011
United States89 Posts
February 15 2012 22:00 GMT
#58
I know people who will never get outta silver. I know some people who will make it to masters in no time. That said, it really depends on the person. Some people just have a greater capacity to adapt and adjust as difficulty arises. Some people just dont. This is not to say a person cannot gain the ability to learn, but people have tendencies to stray from focusing on what's important in order to improve.

As you move up the ladder, the questions you ask yourself are different. For instance, in bronze/silver, you will ask whether you've been producing constant scv's and army units. In diamond level, you no longer have to ask the same question, because you'll never get there with poor macro. Rather, you'll ask yourself whether you made the right engagement, or if you scouted at the right times. You just need to ask the right questions
i am the captain of my fate, the master of my soul
XiGua
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Sweden3085 Posts
February 15 2012 22:01 GMT
#59
All it takes is time and effective usage of that time.

I started in copper with no previous RTS experience. After a year I got into Masters, good luck with you!
ლ(ಠ益ಠლ) APM, Why u make me spam?
nanoscorp
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
United States1237 Posts
February 15 2012 22:05 GMT
#60
I read the forums: many people just seem to ‘be’ Masters.


There's a pretty big sampling bias going on here. First off, if you're reading TL, you're dealing with hardcore SC2 fans, with dedication to the game higher than most. Second, if you're going through threads about Master league specifically, you're running into a lot of people who drop in to say how Masters is no big deal because they can. The 2/100 guys in Masters league are MUCH more likely to pop in and make a post about their league status than the 80/100 guys in Bronze through Plat.

Keep improving your play and spend less time worrying about your league. When you look at your replays and say, "There's nothing I could have done better but I still lost" consistently, then maybe you've hit your peak. Until then though, I wouldn't worry about stalling out in your league progression.
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