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On March 18 2012 03:01 Sergio1992 wrote:
Lyyna, I watched one of your replay,"nice three factory push". strong in that game, but 15 minutes and the protoss didn't tech to ht, neither colossi, he scouted your composition but didn't answer properly...
took a look to mech nice macro game.. the one against flaitropic... Problem is that this guy didn't counter what he saw, if he had Void rays, your doom ball would have been trash, but he got stalkers, that are hardcountered by your huge ball ;=)
I know that a lot of players in these replays aren't that good,especially old ones. got to say that i was like 600th in the EU ladder at that time (and at this lvl, i got to say that most protoss are like REALLY terrible), ended up like 60th 2 weeks ago (so the most recent replay show much better opponent).
And due to the first fact, most of my replays usually designate what is done from my side (the 'nice' is here mostly because i was just starting to work on it at that time, and i was thinking my push in this replay was good, and i usually dont talk about the opponent reaction or only in brief terms).
Also , this isn't that uncommon to not tech to colossus vs it : as this lvl ( and yes, there is a HUGE difference between ranks 500-1000 toss and 50-200 ones . . probably the biggest difference in skill i've ever seen in such a little interval of points) protoss scout the 3 fact and usually think "Lololololol go immortal zealot" . . . Versus a colossus tech , basically you can just focus fire with tanks and banshees (enjoy OS'ing colossus). Versus HT it's a bit harder but focus fire, leapfrog and spread is ok in most cases
And void rays get wrecked by the mass marines and a reactor starport switch
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Can you provide more up to date replays? Watching old replays on battle.net is a giant hassle.
Could you also name them something along the lines of "TVP Mech Replay 1", and upload drop.sc instead of 2shared?
Thanks in advance!
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look at the ones in the zip pack. the 'XX to YY' format indicates the date (french format though, so it's Day/Month)
i use mediafire mainly to allow people to download without having to sign up, and because it allows lots of management for me
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On March 17 2012 14:37 DontLoseSightOfIt wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2012 04:49 Lyyna wrote:On March 17 2012 04:41 Gyro_SC2 wrote:
How do you stop blink harass. For exemple: collosus+blink stalker attack the main. After they blink away and attack your third ...? Sensor towers, and try to intercept his army when he's getting in your main. He'll have to choose between fighting you while you're in a better position, or back with his main force and sacrifice his stalkers in your main. Yeah,i'm thinking about making a guide. but i'm afraid of the kind of reactions we saw on this thread . . . Not really a good source of motivation LYNNA, MAKE THE GUIDE! Go please do it!!! I would love to see another mech guide!!!
Seconded
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Well, then i have to work on it then x)
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On March 17 2012 05:50 Gyro_SC2 wrote:Does someone here think thors drop can be a good harass? http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Thorhttp://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/MarauderThors cost = Minerals300 Vespene200 4marauders cost= Minerals400 Vespene100 4marauders stim DPS= 93,6 (on building) 1 thors DPS= 45,9 1 thors with strike canon DPS= (500 on 6 sec) 83.3 !!! Conclusion: a thors drop cost the same than a marauder drop, have a decent DPS and with strike canon its has more DPS than the normal marauder drop. Its too easy for the protoss to make canons and feel safe again the standard helion-banshee harass. Thors drop can be a new way to make pressure and you can always recycle your medivac for helion drop.
I just needed to say, Strike Cannon's DPS is 500 dmg / 10 seconds = 50 dps. The whole animation (which detracts from normal attacking and so it has to be included) takes 10 seconds. Getting the +1 mech attack upgrade makes a thor just attacking do more dps than strike cannon.
Also I wish I had looked at this thread earlier when there weren't pages upon pages of posts to read through.  I'm a master league always-meching terran player as well. I've personally been doing variations on mech where you open cloak banshees and expand while reactoring out marines and making thors with +1 armor first. As I take my third, that's when I transition into full mech with siege tanks and blue flame, and prepare to run by.
Something I do which I think is really really important is just make TONS of sensor towers once I take my third/fourth. It lets you deal with drops from protoss and always get good positioning. I also surround my bases in turrets LOL.
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I've been trying out Mech on ladder the last couple of days and having mixed success with it. I had one particularly satisfying game where my army felt so damn efficient against my Protoss opponent! He kept bashing hordes of units into my impenetrable Mech army, and my Battlecruiser transition sealed the deal. However, I've had other games where my army just could not trade efficiently, and the first engagement with the Protoss goes horribly one-sidedly and I get rolled by their remax.
Anyway I'm having trouble knowing if/when to add Ghosts to my composition, and also when to attack to get some use out of the Marines I made to survive the Protoss early game pressure. I usually open with a Reactor Barracks expand (get gas normal timing, take scvs off after 50 to make reactor after 1 marine, plant expo and bunker, put scvs back on gas to make other tech), following up with Cloak Banshees and continuing Banshee production while getting 3 Factories with 2 Reactors 1 Tech Lab. Going so Hellion heavy is useful against Tosses who like heavy Chargelot play vs Mech, or to roast Probes.
I think a good follow up is to do a timing attack around 150 food (many pro gamers like 150 food biomech timing attacks and I think they're very strong), while taking a 3rd, double armory, adding Thors, and switching to viking production if they've gone for colossus, then adding BCs and more Starports when we get to 4 base+. I will continue working on this, but does anyone else knows better solutions to the above mentioned issues (getting rid of dead weight marines, when to take a 3rd, ghosts, etc)?
Also, I'd like to recommend that Reactor barracks opener for mech play. It's very economical, very safe, and makes it so you don't have to add extra barracks to remain safe in the early game (unlike gasless 1 rax expand), while also scaring many Protoss into thinking you're 2 Raxing.
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On March 18 2012 03:29 Lyyna wrote:Show nested quote +On March 18 2012 03:01 Sergio1992 wrote:
Lyyna, I watched one of your replay,"nice three factory push". strong in that game, but 15 minutes and the protoss didn't tech to ht, neither colossi, he scouted your composition but didn't answer properly...
took a look to mech nice macro game.. the one against flaitropic... Problem is that this guy didn't counter what he saw, if he had Void rays, your doom ball would have been trash, but he got stalkers, that are hardcountered by your huge ball ;=) I know that a lot of players in these replays aren't that good,especially old ones. got to say that i was like 600th in the EU ladder at that time (and at this lvl, i got to say that most protoss are like REALLY terrible), ended up like 60th 2 weeks ago (so the most recent replay show much better opponent). And due to the first fact, most of my replays usually designate what is done from my side (the 'nice' is here mostly because i was just starting to work on it at that time, and i was thinking my push in this replay was good, and i usually dont talk about the opponent reaction or only in brief terms). Also , this isn't that uncommon to not tech to colossus vs it : as this lvl ( and yes, there is a HUGE difference between ranks 500-1000 toss and 50-200 ones . . probably the biggest difference in skill i've ever seen in such a little interval of points) protoss scout the 3 fact and usually think "Lololololol go immortal zealot" . . . Versus a colossus tech , basically you can just focus fire with tanks and banshees (enjoy OS'ing colossus). Versus HT it's a bit harder but focus fire, leapfrog and spread is ok in most cases And void rays get wrecked by the mass marines and a reactor starport switch
Thanks! Will take a look to other replays!
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Would love to see someone in high masters pull this off.
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On March 18 2012 03:29 Lyyna wrote:Show nested quote +On March 18 2012 03:01 Sergio1992 wrote:
Lyyna, I watched one of your replay,"nice three factory push". strong in that game, but 15 minutes and the protoss didn't tech to ht, neither colossi, he scouted your composition but didn't answer properly...
took a look to mech nice macro game.. the one against flaitropic... Problem is that this guy didn't counter what he saw, if he had Void rays, your doom ball would have been trash, but he got stalkers, that are hardcountered by your huge ball ;=) I know that a lot of players in these replays aren't that good,especially old ones. got to say that i was like 600th in the EU ladder at that time (and at this lvl, i got to say that most protoss are like REALLY terrible), ended up like 60th 2 weeks ago (so the most recent replay show much better opponent). And due to the first fact, most of my replays usually designate what is done from my side (the 'nice' is here mostly because i was just starting to work on it at that time, and i was thinking my push in this replay was good, and i usually dont talk about the opponent reaction or only in brief terms). Also , this isn't that uncommon to not tech to colossus vs it : as this lvl ( and yes, there is a HUGE difference between ranks 500-1000 toss and 50-200 ones . . probably the biggest difference in skill i've ever seen in such a little interval of points) protoss scout the 3 fact and usually think "Lololololol go immortal zealot" . . . Versus a colossus tech , basically you can just focus fire with tanks and banshees (enjoy OS'ing colossus). Versus HT it's a bit harder but focus fire, leapfrog and spread is ok in most cases And void rays get wrecked by the mass marines and a reactor starport switch
Also: are you saying you stay on Banshee production out of your Starports even if you see the opponent going for Colossus? I haven't tried it, but I would love it if Tank/Banshee teamwork is enough to keep you safe vs Colossi, so that I don't have to go switching my Starport addons around, especially since I love a lategame BC transition. I don't know though, so if you don't tell me otherwise I'll be trying it tonight 
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On March 19 2012 03:01 Cycle wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2012 05:50 Gyro_SC2 wrote:Does someone here think thors drop can be a good harass? http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Thorhttp://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/MarauderThors cost = Minerals300 Vespene200 4marauders cost= Minerals400 Vespene100 4marauders stim DPS= 93,6 (on building) 1 thors DPS= 45,9 1 thors with strike canon DPS= (500 on 6 sec) 83.3 !!! Conclusion: a thors drop cost the same than a marauder drop, have a decent DPS and with strike canon its has more DPS than the normal marauder drop. Its too easy for the protoss to make canons and feel safe again the standard helion-banshee harass. Thors drop can be a new way to make pressure and you can always recycle your medivac for helion drop. I just needed to say, Strike Cannon's DPS is 500 dmg / 10 seconds = 50 dps. The whole animation (which detracts from normal attacking and so it has to be included) takes 10 seconds. Getting the +1 mech attack upgrade makes a thor just attacking do more dps than strike cannon. Also I wish I had looked at this thread earlier when there weren't pages upon pages of posts to read through. I'm a master league always-meching terran player as well. I've personally been doing variations on mech where you open cloak banshees and expand while reactoring out marines and making thors with +1 armor first. As I take my third, that's when I transition into full mech with siege tanks and blue flame, and prepare to run by. Something I do which I think is really really important is just make TONS of sensor towers once I take my third/fourth. It lets you deal with drops from protoss and always get good positioning. I also surround my bases in turrets LOL.
the only important thing about strike cannon is that vs immortals it rapes, because of the way spell damage works. i dont think its been changed, but maybe im wrong, i dont play terran.
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@Crocodile : yes, i do use banshees even vs colossus. One thing i hate with vikings to counter colossus is that they ends up in 'dead supply' if there is no colossus or if they're dead . . . and banshee with bio isn't good. But cloack shee are REALLY good with mech (harass,forcing obs from robo, forcing stalkers,etc) . . .
@Halfies : a mix of banshee thor tank and banshee already deals OK with immortals. And ghosts just seal the deal
well,anyway, starting to work on the guide. will take a long time though . .
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Does someone know when I should try a 2base push (15min)? which protoss build is weak vs 2thors+6tank+somehelion ?
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On March 19 2012 15:07 Gyro_SC2 wrote:
Does someone know when I should try a 2base push (15min)? which protoss build is weak vs 2thors+6tank+somehelion ?
Search for a few latest TvPs of Goody, I saw him doing very strong 2base mech push.. Anyway, I'm pretty sure that 15min is too late.. .More like 12-13 min. If I recall correctly, you should hit at about 100-120 supply.
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The colossus production will kick in at about 12:00 if he does the standard 1 gate expand
Hence, protoss are weakest before then.
There is a strong 4 factory push (1 tech 3 reactor) where you hit at ~11:10 with about 4 tanks, about 30 marines, and 4 BFH, with 6 BFH constantly being pumped out every 30 seconds to reinforce. This is actually a three base push, but you don't get your third until a bit before you start the last 3 factories. It should finish a bit before the 3 reactors finish.
There is also a variant where you don't get a third (at least, not until the push) and it hits at ~10:30 but with 3 factories (1 tech, 2 reactor, due to less income). But because of delaying the third, the build is smoother and you can get that stuff out faster and thus hit earlier.
This is the one MKP used vs Genius in GSL 2012 Season 1, game 1 of the 2nd group stage.
Basically the builds for both are this:
Rax, gas, OC, depot, CC, reactor, bunker, gas, factory, tech on fact, siege tank + siege mode, then at 8:10 or 7:30 you throw down 3 or 2 factories respectively, and move out at 10:30 or 9:50 respectively.
There may be some variation, especially with the CC/depot/reactor/bunker/2ndgas/factory timing, it doesn't matter tooo much. Of course if you want to have it super tight it matters, but find a style that you like. I've seen many different variants on this, like pulling some guys out of the first gas to get the CC faster, then getting the 2nd gas earlier, some make 2 Marines then cut a bit so they can get bunker on time instead, some make 3 marines at the ramp and skip the bunker, etc. etc.
I don't know of a thor/tank/hellion push that is strong. I don't think there can be one, because thors are unnecessary at this time without banshees' synergy. Tanks do well vs Stalkers, and hellions do well vs chargelots. The armory would be a waste of gas and you wouldn't have enough anti-chargelot without many hellions. If you push after 12:00 you'll start to need EMP. And with thor, armory, and 6 ish tanks, you won't have enough gas unless you delay past 11:30 timing which would be weak without ghosts and viking/banshee for colossus.
15:00 is too late of a timing for 2 base anyways, and if you're on 3 base, then you should have just keep turtling to 200/200.
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@Lyyna
Awesome games sir, wp.. :-) You definitely need to write guide, as your style (in all 3 matchups) has very "Terran feel" to it and I think a lot of Terrans that are stressed out and feel like playing against clock don't even know you can play like this..
Also, I don't give a shit about all those players that flame you as "abuser", it's the only way to play other than throwing bio all game long only to lose at 15min mark..
How tweaked is your build, can it hold most common allins from P? How does it fare against 3g void? Also, where are you currently sitting like league/rank? I really love how you completly fuck with the idea "Terran is supposed to apply pressure or die TvP/TvZ" lol.. Gonna steal a lot of stuff.. :-)
edit: Also, big thanks to tom_baburger, the OP for being such a badass not giving up until this thread finally produced very good discussion, replays and hopefully can open eyes for a lot of Terrans out there..
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Thanks for this message Everlong. Always nice to read it.
Well, if i open 111 expo, it's really safe versus everything as you can do wathever needed to defend the attack (viking or banshees, tanks or hellions,marines,etc). With the 1 rax double gas expo,it's a bit harder, but what i've been trying vs somebody who tried to 4 gate VR me is to just cancel the expo, and get 2 rax while my factory is coming,and 311 > most toss allin
my rank is : http://sc2ranks.com/eu/760298/IvDLyyna (the name isn't good, renamed to PhX‡Lyyna). Didn't ladder for last 4 days so i get a bit down in the ladder, and my best 'peak' is ~~50ish master
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Better keep working on your guide Lynna!
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My opening: I open with a early thors push. Its very safe. If the protoss expo before me, I push with my 2 thors and I try to make the protoss freak out and cancel his expo, so my CC is before him.
I fellow this guide: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=169602
I feel the only safe opening to mech is to 1-1-1 or early thors.
If not you have to build unnecessary barrack to defend the natural.(unnecessary in the logic of :I don't like making rax when I want to MECH)
The build of MKP with reator-rax + early tank seen vulnerable to 3gate+VR, or blink stalker.
Am I right??
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In my opinion, there is a lot of ways to be safe for mech.
Getting thors allows you to hold 2 bases stuff (basically immo sentry bust). For 1 base you can't get thors AND expo fast enough so. . well, 111 getting marines, tanks and banshees OR vikings is really good, but expo is kind of delayed . . .
1 rax reactor expo is OK in most cases (only have some problem vs drops . . . as you need bunker to defend :/) as you get a huge number of marines . My 1 rax double gas expo can hold most things too due to early reactor and fast banshee after expo ,but can also requires to cancel the CC and go 311 to counter allin him
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EPT
