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On February 08 2012 15:04 mvtaylor wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2012 14:42 SoulWager wrote:
A browser with your opponent's stream in it isn't considered a bannable offense by blizzard. The only third party programs blizzard cares about are those that read or modify sc2 memory, network data, or game files. Would any of the examples I mentioned though be allowed in any tournament be it either online or offline? No. People need to stop trying to find "semi-legal" loopholes to make up for deficiencies in their play and just get better. It doesn't matter if any of the examples you mentioned would be allowed in tournaments, none of those examples are in any way relevant to the techniques in this thread. Yes people that rebind their scroll wheel have an advantage over those that don't, but the same is true for people that extensively customize and individualize their hotkeys and mouse speed/acceleration/polling rate(by the way, i've never heard of an event prohibiting the use of third party mouse drivers). The question is whether or not the technique breaks the game balance, and if it does, how best to fix it. I am not convinced snipe or infested terran is THAT much stronger with the scroll technique(you could already burst snipe or burst out infesteds with waypoints), however the amount of time and and risk to execute is significantly reduced.
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i believe this is not a problem for infested terrans
however, it does seem slightly overpowered for ghosts only because right now in pro games the max rate of snipe fire is maybe 10-15 a second, which is kinda overpowered but whatever if zerg 200food swarms enough with broodlords while also keeping 20 overlords surrounding his broodlords to make it hard to snipe to target, zerg can sort of deal with it with that tactic
sure snipe seems sort of overpowered but you gotta realize fungal growth is extremely powerful against clumped units too in low caster numbers and 2 full energy infestors with 4 nice fungals can deal loads of damage to an army much more than 2ghosts. the problem is in a perfect world 20 infestors cannot stack their damage the way 20ghosts can.
with micro-bot level APM, 20ghosts can unload all their energy in a second and obliterate 80food worth of zerg army in a second, but 20infestors cannot do that with fungal growth because fungal growth is damage over time, and snipe is instant
so infestors compared to ghosts are not able to be culmulatively more powerful. 2 infestors will be almost as effective as 15 infestors in a massive battle when it comes to fungalling (assuming they arent sniped. im just talking pure energy effectiveness)
one fungal growth can deal 300 damage for 75 energy. very effective against vikings/marines (broodlords main counter). 4-1 ratio.
Snipe does 45 damage for 25 energy, roughly 2-1 ratio
so infestors in low amounts are better than ghosts in low amounts. but 20ghosts in perfect world can unload all their energy instantly for loads of damage while infestors only do Damager-Over-Time with fungal so infestors cannot do that
I think presently mass ghosts lategame as zerg is completely beatable, you just have to be smart about it and do the following tactic
Step 1) have about 12 broodlords clumped up and stacked which is possible with micro. you have to keep re-stacking them while a-moving. a-move them over the ground so they can have ling/infestor support when needed
Step 3) have 20 overlords with a bunch of overseers also clumped up and have them in the same group as the broodlords. when broodlords attack overlords are there to provide cover and make it hard for ghosts to snipe the broods
Step 3) have 10 infestors ready, 2 behind the broodlord army and 8 even further behind burrowed and ready to have 2 replacements whenever needed. if your front 2 infestors get EMP'ed, pull them back and bring in 2 fresh infestors to hopefully try again
Step 4) as you A-move the broodlords over the ground, they should be on top of overseers which have sight range greater than snipe. broodlord attackrange is greater than snipe, so when ghosts come in the broodlords should automatically start shredding them before they can get off too many snipes. also since a cloud of overlords is over the broodlords its even harder to snipe the broods (since overlords take target priority).
Step 5) keep the 2 infestors near the broodlords so When vikings try to use 9range to snipe broodlords nopefully you can get off a good fungal. a good fungal will take out a bunch of vikings with followup fungals
Step 6) also keep a few queens underneath the broodlords to provide anti air damage with range7. almost better to use queens than corrupters but of course you will also have a few corrupters. when you can try to use overlords to poop creep for queens
Step 7) keep your massive swarm of ling/baneling right near your broodlords. as your broodlords a-move across the map eventually you will reach the terrans siegetank line. broodlords are the counter to siegetanks and the terran will be forced to unsiege or be destroyed. do not engage with ling/bane unless the siegetanks are unsieged which the broodlords should force
Step 8) group things however you wish, but ill just brainstorm i think the best way to group would be broodlords+overlords+overseers+queens as one group and you constantly clump up this group and a-move slowly across the map. Next your 10infestors will be one group however in battle you just select 2 infestors and have them follow the broodlords, then you select them manually and try to spellcast fungals if you need, and if the front 2 get emp'ed you pull them back and select 2 more infestors to follow the broods. Then banelings/lings/roaches/whatever else you have is your third group that you constantly command to be by the broodlords. so thats 3 groups needed for your main lategame army, and then you have whatever forces around the map defending your expansions you can group those to wahtever you want
The 8step plan above should allow zerg to deal with ghosts okay, because ghosts snipe is only roughly the same range as broodlords, and if the broodlords are STACKED/CLUMPED (which is possible with micro) then by the time a group of ghosts come in to try and snipe they will have already been under heavy fire by the 12 broodlords. So in this scenario, broodlords vs ghosts/snipe becomes a fairly even battle or actually it goes into the broodlords favor
I would call the trade off between infestors being stronger than ghosts in low numbers even and balanced, however i just realized, terran also has hunter seeker missile. i swear to god that thing shouldnt have been buffed. hunter seeker missile is actually in many ways more powerful than fungal every time ive seen that thing dish out damage its seemed to be insanely overpowered.
and i think my 8step plan would perfectly counter ghosts, if hunter seeker missile didnt exist. However sadly, hunter seeker missile does exist, and god is that thing overpowered. If you try to use my clumping/stacking strategy against hunter seeker missile you will could lose your entire army to 4 ravens and those missiles travel about as fast as mutalisks now.
so yeah, just when i thought snipe would be balanced even with this tactic, im reminded of hunter seeker missile which counters the only zerg counter to mass ghosts endgame
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How does this work exactly? Do I shift+r+mouse wheel? Referring to the snipe.
There is more balance talk than the actual instructions to execute this.
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How about dropping on the move with this trick? Does it work instantly? :D
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On February 08 2012 18:23 roymarthyup wrote:
i believe this is not a problem for infested terrans
however, it does seem slightly overpowered for ghosts only because right now in pro games the max rate of snipe fire is maybe 10-15 a second, which is kinda overpowered but whatever if zerg 200food swarms enough with broodlords while also keeping 20 overlords surrounding his broodlords to make it hard to snipe to target, zerg can sort of deal with it with that tactic
sure snipe seems sort of overpowered but you gotta realize fungal growth is extremely powerful against clumped units too in low caster numbers and 2 full energy infestors with 4 nice fungals can deal loads of damage to an army much more than 2ghosts. the problem is in a perfect world 20 infestors cannot stack their damage the way 20ghosts can.
with micro-bot level APM, 20ghosts can unload all their energy in a second and obliterate 80food worth of zerg army in a second, but 20infestors cannot do that with fungal growth because fungal growth is damage over time, and snipe is instant
so infestors compared to ghosts are not able to be culmulatively more powerful. 2 infestors will be almost as effective as 15 infestors in a massive battle when it comes to fungalling (assuming they arent sniped. im just talking pure energy effectiveness)
one fungal growth can deal 300 damage for 75 energy. very effective against vikings/marines (broodlords main counter). 4-1 ratio.
Snipe does 45 damage for 25 energy, roughly 2-1 ratio
so infestors in low amounts are better than ghosts in low amounts. but 20ghosts in perfect world can unload all their energy instantly for loads of damage while infestors only do Damager-Over-Time with fungal so infestors cannot do that
I think presently mass ghosts lategame as zerg is completely beatable, you just have to be smart about it and do the following tactic
Step 1) have about 12 broodlords clumped up and stacked which is possible with micro. you have to keep re-stacking them while a-moving. a-move them over the ground so they can have ling/infestor support when needed
Step 3) have 20 overlords with a bunch of overseers also clumped up and have them in the same group as the broodlords. when broodlords attack overlords are there to provide cover and make it hard for ghosts to snipe the broods
Step 3) have 10 infestors ready, 2 behind the broodlord army and 8 even further behind burrowed and ready to have 2 replacements whenever needed. if your front 2 infestors get EMP'ed, pull them back and bring in 2 fresh infestors to hopefully try again
Step 4) as you A-move the broodlords over the ground, they should be on top of overseers which have sight range greater than snipe. broodlord attackrange is greater than snipe, so when ghosts come in the broodlords should automatically start shredding them before they can get off too many snipes. also since a cloud of overlords is over the broodlords its even harder to snipe the broods (since overlords take target priority).
Step 5) keep the 2 infestors near the broodlords so When vikings try to use 9range to snipe broodlords nopefully you can get off a good fungal. a good fungal will take out a bunch of vikings with followup fungals
Step 6) also keep a few queens underneath the broodlords to provide anti air damage with range7. almost better to use queens than corrupters but of course you will also have a few corrupters. when you can try to use overlords to poop creep for queens
Step 7) keep your massive swarm of ling/baneling right near your broodlords. as your broodlords a-move across the map eventually you will reach the terrans siegetank line. broodlords are the counter to siegetanks and the terran will be forced to unsiege or be destroyed. do not engage with ling/bane unless the siegetanks are unsieged which the broodlords should force
Step 8) group things however you wish, but ill just brainstorm i think the best way to group would be broodlords+overlords+overseers+queens as one group and you constantly clump up this group and a-move slowly across the map. Next your 10infestors will be one group however in battle you just select 2 infestors and have them follow the broodlords, then you select them manually and try to spellcast fungals if you need, and if the front 2 get emp'ed you pull them back and select 2 more infestors to follow the broods. Then banelings/lings/roaches/whatever else you have is your third group that you constantly command to be by the broodlords. so thats 3 groups needed for your main lategame army, and then you have whatever forces around the map defending your expansions you can group those to wahtever you want
The 8step plan above should allow zerg to deal with ghosts okay, because ghosts snipe is only roughly the same range as broodlords, and if the broodlords are STACKED/CLUMPED (which is possible with micro) then by the time a group of ghosts come in to try and snipe they will have already been under heavy fire by the 12 broodlords. So in this scenario, broodlords vs ghosts/snipe becomes a fairly even battle or actually it goes into the broodlords favor
I would call the trade off between infestors being stronger than ghosts in low numbers even and balanced, however i just realized, terran also has hunter seeker missile. i swear to god that thing shouldnt have been buffed. hunter seeker missile is actually in many ways more powerful than fungal every time ive seen that thing dish out damage its seemed to be insanely overpowered.
and i think my 8step plan would perfectly counter ghosts, if hunter seeker missile didnt exist. However sadly, hunter seeker missile does exist, and god is that thing overpowered. If you try to use my clumping/stacking strategy against hunter seeker missile you will could lose your entire army to 4 ravens and those missiles travel about as fast as mutalisks now.
so yeah, just when i thought snipe would be balanced even with this tactic, im reminded of hunter seeker missile which counters the only zerg counter to mass ghosts endgame
Having to do ALL of this when the terran simply scrolls his mouse wheel isn't exactly equal micro on both fronts, the amount of effort it takes to negate/lessen how strong snipe is with this scroll wheel thing isn't at all balanced, the damage output is stupid with this.
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On February 08 2012 20:37 BigProstate wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2012 18:23 roymarthyup wrote:
i believe this is not a problem for infested terrans
however, it does seem slightly overpowered for ghosts only because right now in pro games the max rate of snipe fire is maybe 10-15 a second, which is kinda overpowered but whatever if zerg 200food swarms enough with broodlords while also keeping 20 overlords surrounding his broodlords to make it hard to snipe to target, zerg can sort of deal with it with that tactic
sure snipe seems sort of overpowered but you gotta realize fungal growth is extremely powerful against clumped units too in low caster numbers and 2 full energy infestors with 4 nice fungals can deal loads of damage to an army much more than 2ghosts. the problem is in a perfect world 20 infestors cannot stack their damage the way 20ghosts can.
with micro-bot level APM, 20ghosts can unload all their energy in a second and obliterate 80food worth of zerg army in a second, but 20infestors cannot do that with fungal growth because fungal growth is damage over time, and snipe is instant
so infestors compared to ghosts are not able to be culmulatively more powerful. 2 infestors will be almost as effective as 15 infestors in a massive battle when it comes to fungalling (assuming they arent sniped. im just talking pure energy effectiveness)
one fungal growth can deal 300 damage for 75 energy. very effective against vikings/marines (broodlords main counter). 4-1 ratio.
Snipe does 45 damage for 25 energy, roughly 2-1 ratio
so infestors in low amounts are better than ghosts in low amounts. but 20ghosts in perfect world can unload all their energy instantly for loads of damage while infestors only do Damager-Over-Time with fungal so infestors cannot do that
I think presently mass ghosts lategame as zerg is completely beatable, you just have to be smart about it and do the following tactic
Step 1) have about 12 broodlords clumped up and stacked which is possible with micro. you have to keep re-stacking them while a-moving. a-move them over the ground so they can have ling/infestor support when needed
Step 3) have 20 overlords with a bunch of overseers also clumped up and have them in the same group as the broodlords. when broodlords attack overlords are there to provide cover and make it hard for ghosts to snipe the broods
Step 3) have 10 infestors ready, 2 behind the broodlord army and 8 even further behind burrowed and ready to have 2 replacements whenever needed. if your front 2 infestors get EMP'ed, pull them back and bring in 2 fresh infestors to hopefully try again
Step 4) as you A-move the broodlords over the ground, they should be on top of overseers which have sight range greater than snipe. broodlord attackrange is greater than snipe, so when ghosts come in the broodlords should automatically start shredding them before they can get off too many snipes. also since a cloud of overlords is over the broodlords its even harder to snipe the broods (since overlords take target priority).
Step 5) keep the 2 infestors near the broodlords so When vikings try to use 9range to snipe broodlords nopefully you can get off a good fungal. a good fungal will take out a bunch of vikings with followup fungals
Step 6) also keep a few queens underneath the broodlords to provide anti air damage with range7. almost better to use queens than corrupters but of course you will also have a few corrupters. when you can try to use overlords to poop creep for queens
Step 7) keep your massive swarm of ling/baneling right near your broodlords. as your broodlords a-move across the map eventually you will reach the terrans siegetank line. broodlords are the counter to siegetanks and the terran will be forced to unsiege or be destroyed. do not engage with ling/bane unless the siegetanks are unsieged which the broodlords should force
Step 8) group things however you wish, but ill just brainstorm i think the best way to group would be broodlords+overlords+overseers+queens as one group and you constantly clump up this group and a-move slowly across the map. Next your 10infestors will be one group however in battle you just select 2 infestors and have them follow the broodlords, then you select them manually and try to spellcast fungals if you need, and if the front 2 get emp'ed you pull them back and select 2 more infestors to follow the broods. Then banelings/lings/roaches/whatever else you have is your third group that you constantly command to be by the broodlords. so thats 3 groups needed for your main lategame army, and then you have whatever forces around the map defending your expansions you can group those to wahtever you want
The 8step plan above should allow zerg to deal with ghosts okay, because ghosts snipe is only roughly the same range as broodlords, and if the broodlords are STACKED/CLUMPED (which is possible with micro) then by the time a group of ghosts come in to try and snipe they will have already been under heavy fire by the 12 broodlords. So in this scenario, broodlords vs ghosts/snipe becomes a fairly even battle or actually it goes into the broodlords favor
I would call the trade off between infestors being stronger than ghosts in low numbers even and balanced, however i just realized, terran also has hunter seeker missile. i swear to god that thing shouldnt have been buffed. hunter seeker missile is actually in many ways more powerful than fungal every time ive seen that thing dish out damage its seemed to be insanely overpowered.
and i think my 8step plan would perfectly counter ghosts, if hunter seeker missile didnt exist. However sadly, hunter seeker missile does exist, and god is that thing overpowered. If you try to use my clumping/stacking strategy against hunter seeker missile you will could lose your entire army to 4 ravens and those missiles travel about as fast as mutalisks now.
so yeah, just when i thought snipe would be balanced even with this tactic, im reminded of hunter seeker missile which counters the only zerg counter to mass ghosts endgame Having to do ALL of this when the terran simply scrolls his mouse wheel isn't exactly equal micro on both fronts, the amount of effort it takes to negate/lessen how strong snipe is with this scroll wheel thing isn't at all balanced, the damage output is stupid with this.
while i see what your saying, i actually was talking about the game and counter ideas WITHOUT this wheelscroll stuff
right now at the master level, ghosts are sniping at about 10-15 snipes a second, 15 being what i see in pro GSL code S games but i see what seems like 10 per second in normal playhem tournament games
so pretty much, i was trying to say that RIGHT NOW ghosts are already sniping at about 10-15 times a second. with this it would increase to essentially 50 snipes a second limited only by how accurately you scroll your mouse over screen units. but regardless, i was saying that 10-15 snipes per second is still super strong and i was brainstorming ideas on how to counter the current level of 10-15 that zergs have to deal with
but, the problem is, as i stated, that my proposed counter idea doesnt even work because i forgot to include hunter seeker missiles. hunter seeker missiles are in many way the most overpowered thing terran has. 4 of those destroys almost your whole army or brings it into the red. clumping up broodlords to counter snipe is just a dream, because hunter seeker missiles now pretty much fly as fast as than mutas and basically 1shot your whole army
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Played vs my friend on Shakuras, was at a 60 supply lead with 8 broodlords and his 9 ghosts killed ALL of them in 1.5 seconds, with 8 broodlings seeing the light of day. It was not a fun experience.
I'm not gonna go rage mode over this, as it is hard to prevent, but yeh it is ridiculously strong for ghosts, and i imagine in ZvZ it may be troublesome.
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I have to say, I've been using this for warp ins as protoss, and especially endgame its extremely useful. I actually mapped it to double click so its even faster and it saves me a good two seconds on each warp in. As to the snipe situation it does seem rather imbalanced, but I hope they keep it just for protoss's sake 
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Very good idea
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On February 06 2012 15:20 Kaitlin wrote:There's fast and then there's fast. Below is a screenshot from a game I played long ago. I don't use the mousewheel. Instead I have my 'm' button on my keyboard set to 'Mouse Left Click', so I just hold it down and away it goes. I don't know if it's legal for 'offline' tournaments, but I play at home and since it's equivalent to holding down 'Z' to make Zerglings, which Blizzard offers as a game tip, I'm not concerned about it being illegal. edit: As far as tournaments, if they allow you to bring your own keyboards, and the related drivers, this is nothing more than changing what a single key on your keyboard means. It's not a macro - it's a single keystroke change. If that's allowed in tourneys, then ... It also helps for Protoss warp-ins. I've warped in quite a few Zealots quite quickly. Generally spiking at about 5k apm. The 20k was a result of a lot of infestors ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/1Dsf3.jpg)
I dont think enough attention has been given to this post.
Just tried it out, it's fucking ridiculous yo.
On February 08 2012 15:04 mvtaylor wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2012 14:42 SoulWager wrote:
A browser with your opponent's stream in it isn't considered a bannable offense by blizzard. The only third party programs blizzard cares about are those that read or modify sc2 memory, network data, or game files. Would any of the examples I mentioned though be allowed in any tournament be it either online or offline? No. People need to stop trying to find "semi-legal" loopholes to make up for deficiencies in their play and just get better.
People have been using fancy tricks that may be considered "semi-legal" since Brood War to improve their play. Even pros.
Hell, a lot of the most notorious shit done by pros in BW were/are considered "bugs"
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On February 08 2012 19:56 gplayer wrote:
How about dropping on the move with this trick? Does it work instantly? :D
Nope. If you click on the unit in the medivac to be dropped, it gets queued up to be dropped (turns grey), but there's a timed drop animation for each one.
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Don't think it breaks the game... Just makes some counters (ie Ghosts vs Zt3) stronger.
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I hope this gets removed. I tried this with my G50 and It's quite ridiculous really. (for those that don't know a G50 mouse allows you to remove the break on a scroll making a simple flick enough to drop down all your infested terrans).
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On February 08 2012 22:37 TSBspartacus wrote:I have to say, I've been using this for warp ins as protoss, and especially endgame its extremely useful. I actually mapped it to double click so its even faster and it saves me a good two seconds on each warp in. As to the snipe situation it does seem rather imbalanced, but I hope they keep it just for protoss's sake
Double click is not allowed in blizzard ToS, as you are doing two actions in game with 1 action on your mouse. Might as well just use normal click if you don't want to get your account suspended.
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On February 08 2012 22:48 Candadar wrote:Show nested quote +On February 06 2012 15:20 Kaitlin wrote:There's fast and then there's fast. Below is a screenshot from a game I played long ago. I don't use the mousewheel. Instead I have my 'm' button on my keyboard set to 'Mouse Left Click', so I just hold it down and away it goes. I don't know if it's legal for 'offline' tournaments, but I play at home and since it's equivalent to holding down 'Z' to make Zerglings, which Blizzard offers as a game tip, I'm not concerned about it being illegal. edit: As far as tournaments, if they allow you to bring your own keyboards, and the related drivers, this is nothing more than changing what a single key on your keyboard means. It's not a macro - it's a single keystroke change. If that's allowed in tourneys, then ... It also helps for Protoss warp-ins. I've warped in quite a few Zealots quite quickly. Generally spiking at about 5k apm. The 20k was a result of a lot of infestors I dont think enough attention has been given to this post. Just tried it out, it's fucking ridiculous yo. Show nested quote +On February 08 2012 15:04 mvtaylor wrote:On February 08 2012 14:42 SoulWager wrote:
A browser with your opponent's stream in it isn't considered a bannable offense by blizzard. The only third party programs blizzard cares about are those that read or modify sc2 memory, network data, or game files. Would any of the examples I mentioned though be allowed in any tournament be it either online or offline? No. People need to stop trying to find "semi-legal" loopholes to make up for deficiencies in their play and just get better. People have been using fancy tricks that may be considered "semi-legal" since Brood War to improve their play. Even pros. Hell, a lot of the most notorious shit done by pros in BW were/are considered "bugs"
This keyboard re-map method does give you more control over your mouse movement while mass casting spells, I feel - It's more comfortable than using the scroll wheel. It might be slightly slower than the wheel, tho?, with the 31 actions limit, anyhow.
I use this code in Autohotkey for it:
''*<::
SetKeyDelay -1
Send {Blind}{Lbutton DownTemp}
return''
'<' being the key on the keyboard
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I expect that Blizzard is not going to tolerate this "enhancement".
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On February 09 2012 00:39 Barrin wrote:
make the snipe animation longer (if anything...?)
like, I mean.. they're sniping.
I don't know if you've ever tried to snipe something with a sniper rifle... well, I haven't either. But I do know that the aiming part takes quite a bit longer than any other kind of gun.
It's also the future and shit. We can argue all day about what's possible.
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On February 08 2012 16:12 xxpack09 wrote:
So if people can agree that this is an issue, then why have smartcasting in the first place? That's the bigger issue.
Cause it makes the game better.
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In CS 1.6 you could use the scrollwheel to crouchwalk easier, this is however banned everywhere except in Swedish internettournaments ^^
I guess this will be banned aswell.
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EPT
