Just tried it out in 3 games and won every vs high master and GM players even though I messed up a the build order a few times. I added a medivac as reinforcement to the push to heal scvs and any marines alive, but primarily you can use it to pick up thors that are getting targeted by roaches and drop them behind the frontline to get repaired.
Also the genius of lifting your barracks to hide all the tech, really everyone should do this in TvZ especially since there is a small window of time after marine 2 is built until you can afford the reactor. To help hide everything even better I keep just 1 marine behind the supply depots at the ramp and the second one on patrol in the back of the base to stop overlord scouting. With the 4 thor push I believe its most important to snipe queens first, once they are dead you can leave the banshees on hold position which really helps out against the roaches.
On January 27 2012 01:43 saaaa wrote: does a reactor hellion expand delay this build?
i think you have the same banshee+cloak timings with a hellion expand.
The expansion will be delayed by quite a bit because you need to build the 2nd reactor once you put the factory down. Going straight into expo and then banshees will also probably outright die to fast roaches.
However it might still be good!
I think you should try it out and note the timings of of when you have 2 cloaked banshees and the 4 -thor push with blue flame hellions and compare it to the original build.
I saw this build quite a few times on Specialist's stream last night. It catches most zerg players off guard, interestingly the immobility of the 4 thor push results in a LOT of base trade scenarios...
If your opponent is going pure roach, no spire do you suggest continuing banshee production for the thor all in and cutting some hellion?
Also i find a medivac is invaluable during the 4 thor push since it allows for thor micro and scv micro in case they have banes.
It's funny because i've also been stealing this build from forgg. Whenever you push out with your thors, it just feels so weak, but somehow you get the win. Then upon watching the replay you realize hey had like 20 drones the whole game or just got up to 40 but no units.
Hey i kinda ran into a bit of trouble while using this build. I use this build almost every tvz i play now and crush very zerg that decides to go muta. I so far have lost all my games when the zerg goes infestors am i suppose to play the style out the same way vs infestors?
On January 27 2012 14:24 Protossrush wrote: Hey i kinda ran into a bit of trouble while using this build. I use this build almost every tvz i play now and crush very zerg that decides to go muta. I so far have lost all my games when the zerg goes infestors am i suppose to play the style out the same way vs infestors?
This also works well vs Stephano style. The few games I've played using this build against infestor-upgraded ling is by mixing in more banshees to snipe infestors,and getting siege tanks. If i'm not mistaken, pure mech play is pretty good against Stephano style.
On January 27 2012 01:43 saaaa wrote: does a reactor hellion expand delay this build?
i think you have the same banshee+cloak timings with a hellion expand.
The expansion will be delayed by quite a bit because you need to build the 2nd reactor once you put the factory down. Going straight into expo and then banshees will also probably outright die to fast roaches.
However it might still be good!
I think you should try it out and note the timings of of when you have 2 cloaked banshees and the 4 -thor push with blue flame hellions and compare it to the original build.
i checked it..
i'm wrong you can not afford to build a CC between this.. i tried every single option..
it works decent if you go for 1rax FE and then Reactor Hellion and you get the same timings of cloak (5-10s later maybe) and banshee but no way with a "normal" reactor hellion expand.
On January 26 2012 05:42 spbelky wrote: OK so after the banshee harass, your main production is going to be 2 tech factories and a reactor factory off 2base... sounds good.
More newbie questions: When do you get upgrades, and do you get armor or weapon? or 2 armory and get both? O_o
whenever you have money left while running all 3 factories... and always get weapon upgrade for every terran upgrades
"always" is pretty strong, a lot of Thor rushes prefer +1armor against zerg because it makes zerglings less effective especially in combination with scv repair. Tanks definitely benefit from the weapons which is clearly the right upgrade in almost every instance for other mech units too but there are times where armor can work as well.
In unit Testing, Thors benefit more from +1 armor vs Zerglings/Roach more.. but thats not including hellions.
+1 attack does not help kill roaches faster with thors, But Hellions benefit from the +1 attack vs roach. +1 Armor will not help hellion vs roach because going from 16 to 15 doesn't change the # of hits to kill, its 6 hits with or without the armor upgrade..
Thor cant outrun roach, and 5 roaches beat a +0 armor thor. Hellions will end up tanking for thors and get to maximize their splash with the +1 attack.
So it is probably wise to get +1 attack first vs this type of composition.
If there primarliy zerglings, then +1 Armor is the better choice, since +1 attack does nothing for thor/ hellion with blue flame vs zerglings.
how do you beat this as zerg? There's no way you can scout what he's doing. This build is extremely strong and the timing is super powerful. I lost to diamond terran today using this and that normally don't happen.
I feel one of the stronger point of this build is banshee forces zerg to bundle up into a sim-city, along with hellions. As a result when the thor comes if you're caught off-guard there's no way you can flank it, and it's insta gg.
On January 29 2012 17:38 evanthebouncy! wrote: how do you beat this as zerg? There's no way you can scout what he's doing. This build is extremely strong and the timing is super powerful. I lost to diamond terran today using this and that normally don't happen.
I feel one of the stronger point of this build is banshee forces zerg to bundle up into a sim-city, along with hellions. As a result when the thor comes if you're caught off-guard there's no way you can flank it, and it's insta gg.
As someone who plays a very similiar style regularly I can give my opinion on this. There is a set of circumstances that occur very rarely, but when they do I almost always lose.
1.) MOST IMPORTANT - Minimize the hellion damage. I know it sounds simple, but I'm amazed by how many times a Zerg will scout my front, see a reactored factory on the wall, and have next to no response in their base. Put a spine crawler in each mineral line, use some simcity with evo chambers and your pool, and block the ramp with queens.
2.) You defended the hellion strike with managable losses (You'll rarely ever be able to stop them from killing any drones, don't worry about that.). Immediately send zerglings to the front of the Terran's base. (4-8 lings). You should notice some red flags: no tank fire, only mass marines defending, maybe a handful of other hellions. Nothing to explain where the rest of the gas is going. With nothing to explain where the gas is going you should immediately sac an overlord and see what's going on. You'll either see the techlab startport or a lack of other production facilities and know banshees are coming.
Two spores at each base (1 in mineral line, 1 on other side by queen) shuts down banshees with ease.
3.) Now that you've minimized the damage from the hellions, brushed away the banshee followup, you can focus on the big push you know is coming. Immediately take a 3rd and pump roaches. These builds don't usually allow for many tanks, if any, and thors fall fairly easily to large roach numbers.
In my experience, when the above happens, there's not much left for me to do.
It's so fun to watch forgg do this. I've always wanted to give this a shot, but been too lazy to actually figure the build out for myself. I've seen him do a couple variations on his stream before: in to bio instead of 4 thor push, mass hellion folowup, 4-6 banshee followup, etc. This looks quite in depth though, thanks.
On January 29 2012 17:38 evanthebouncy! wrote: how do you beat this as zerg? There's no way you can scout what he's doing. This build is extremely strong and the timing is super powerful. I lost to diamond terran today using this and that normally don't happen.
I feel one of the stronger point of this build is banshee forces zerg to bundle up into a sim-city, along with hellions. As a result when the thor comes if you're caught off-guard there's no way you can flank it, and it's insta gg.
As someone who plays a very similiar style regularly I can give my opinion on this. There is a set of circumstances that occur very rarely, but when they do I almost always lose.
1.) MOST IMPORTANT - Minimize the hellion damage. I know it sounds simple, but I'm amazed by how many times a Zerg will scout my front, see a reactored factory on the wall, and have next to no response in their base. Put a spine crawler in each mineral line, use some simcity with evo chambers and your pool, and block the ramp with queens.
2.) You defended the hellion strike with managable losses (You'll rarely ever be able to stop them from killing any drones, don't worry about that.). Immediately send zerglings to the front of the Terran's base. (4-8 lings). You should notice some red flags: no tank fire, only mass marines defending, maybe a handful of other hellions. Nothing to explain where the rest of the gas is going. With nothing to explain where the gas is going you should immediately sac an overlord and see what's going on. You'll either see the techlab startport or a lack of other production facilities and know banshees are coming.
Two spores at each base (1 in mineral line, 1 on other side by queen) shuts down banshees with ease.
3.) Now that you've minimized the damage from the hellions, brushed away the banshee followup, you can focus on the big push you know is coming. Immediately take a 3rd and pump roaches. These builds don't usually allow for many tanks, if any, and thors fall fairly easily to large roach numbers.
In my experience, when the above happens, there's not much left for me to do.
Thank you, rarely i see such detailed answer. Even if its not me asking.
reminds me of TLO's build, only that he got less hellions and double banshee of starport without cloak and a raven. But from there it was pretty much the same push I think, with ~4Thors. But I also think he played it less allinish, so maybe not really TLO's build
On January 29 2012 17:38 evanthebouncy! wrote: how do you beat this as zerg? There's no way you can scout what he's doing. This build is extremely strong and the timing is super powerful. I lost to diamond terran today using this and that normally don't happen.
I feel one of the stronger point of this build is banshee forces zerg to bundle up into a sim-city, along with hellions. As a result when the thor comes if you're caught off-guard there's no way you can flank it, and it's insta gg.
As someone who plays a very similiar style regularly I can give my opinion on this. There is a set of circumstances that occur very rarely, but when they do I almost always lose.
1.) MOST IMPORTANT - Minimize the hellion damage. I know it sounds simple, but I'm amazed by how many times a Zerg will scout my front, see a reactored factory on the wall, and have next to no response in their base. Put a spine crawler in each mineral line, use some simcity with evo chambers and your pool, and block the ramp with queens.
2.) You defended the hellion strike with managable losses (You'll rarely ever be able to stop them from killing any drones, don't worry about that.). Immediately send zerglings to the front of the Terran's base. (4-8 lings). You should notice some red flags: no tank fire, only mass marines defending, maybe a handful of other hellions. Nothing to explain where the rest of the gas is going. With nothing to explain where the gas is going you should immediately sac an overlord and see what's going on. You'll either see the techlab startport or a lack of other production facilities and know banshees are coming.
Two spores at each base (1 in mineral line, 1 on other side by queen) shuts down banshees with ease.
3.) Now that you've minimized the damage from the hellions, brushed away the banshee followup, you can focus on the big push you know is coming. Immediately take a 3rd and pump roaches. These builds don't usually allow for many tanks, if any, and thors fall fairly easily to large roach numbers.
In my experience, when the above happens, there's not much left for me to do.
I like this build. It's often that the hellion harass is so annoying that they forget detection, and you autowin. I've noticed that sometimes he waits until two banshees to harass. What are your thoughts on this?
I usually wait for 2 banshee unless my hellions don't do much damage.
As soon as one banshee moves in you can bet a pair of queens are being made, one from each base, or they go for spores right away.
If your hellions roast more than 6-8 drones wait until you have two banshee and spring it on them to surprise them. Cloak will be done and you can easily double team the queens, then focus fire any spores before they can pop.
Thanks for the guide dude. I watch ForGGs stream all the time and wanted to try some of the strategys he does. I think he says that he specifically does certain strats on ladder to work on his timings and micro.
I also saw you play probably the two funniest games against QXC where he rushed you two games in a row and BMed about being the new Allinking
EPT
