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On January 14 2012 09:21 KalWarkov wrote:
nice writeup.
But: really hard 4 gates played by high gm players are still amazingly hard to hold with 2 gate tech-builds. with 3 gates you are on the safer site.
PvP will always be a bit problematic, since: greedy build > safe build > 4 gate > greedy build if everything goes "normal"
the first two replays in the op are a WP 4gate from rank #3 gm in NA and a 4gate from rank #49 gm in NA; both were held with 1g variation. this build is made to hold ideal timing for the 4gate. doesn't matter who is pressing the buttons
edit: im not one to bring rank skill or w/e into the equation but... your comment made me cringe just slightly
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On January 14 2012 03:12 Alejandrisha wrote:Show nested quote +On January 14 2012 03:09 Dauntless wrote:
I only want to thank you for an amazing guide. I read it all while watching the replays and trying to understand the reasoning behind it all. Gonna try to practice out the build orders when I have time.
Also, it'd be nice to see some replays with 1g SG and 2g SG =) BAM!1g sg vs 1g robo - robo blink on maps where you're forced to scout earlier (12), don't be afraid to use the information you get and be a little more greedy when appropriate. here, he cb'd his nexus a third time so i felt fine moving out without worrying about a probe sneaking behind the front lines. then, i see a sentry so i feel free to cut mine, and cut my 3rd gate as well.
Wow, amazing reaction time 
You rock, Alej!
Edit:
Regarding the last 11 4gate replay:
+ Show Spoiler +On January 14 2012 04:29 Alejandrisha wrote:Emyndri was kind enough to play some games. I lost a few games to 4gate from supply blocking my 2nd sentry, but held when I got the 2nd sentry out timely. It's very easy to make these kinds of mistakes under pressure, so make sure you prioritize your actions. microing stalkers might seem very important, but as long as no probe is sneaking through and your stalkers are hitting pylons, focus on executing the build. here was a pretty good example http://drop.sc/91204his 4gate is off of an 11 gate so it wg comes a few seconds faster than usual. however, this means his approach is a bit weaker because he needs to cut the zealot to get the gateways up in time. to account for this, he brings 2 probes. so long as you timely take down the probes and cancel any above ground pylons (shouldn't be hard because the approach cuts units), the safe build should beat it 100% of the time. also note: you'll see I don't scout as early as I ought to on xel'naga. the only reason we used xel'naga was because it is the hardest to map on which to effectively zone the approach edit: leave your char code here or pm me with it if you feel confident in your 4gate and you'd like to do this with me. i'd be glad to play some games with you
Couldn't he have busted up your ramp while you were waiting for your 3rd Sentry to warp in there? If he'd had a proxy pylon that wasn't beneath the ramp he could have had two more stalkers at that time.
Or was your 3rd Sentry late? It comes out of your second WG, which seems to be timed right. You do CB your 1st WG instead of WG research though, but that shouldn't matter..
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Really great post. I have been doing all sorts of robo builds in PvP and my opponents just can't 4 gate me and kill me. It usually ends up in a situation where my army is a little better (because of immortals) and he pulls back to his base to work on economy. However, I already have a better economy, so I expand and push on his base and deny his expo as long as possible. It pulls the game into a longer, macro game, but my opponent is WAY too far behind to make a comeback.
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On January 14 2012 09:21 KalWarkov wrote:
PvP will always be a bit problematic, since: greedy build > safe build > 4 gate > greedy build if everything goes "normal"
While it is technically "right" that a build which is built to guard against 4-gate has categorically more freedom than one built to hold it (and therefore, is stronger than or equal in strength to all other builds, by some logical theorem I'm not going to look up). But if they're more or less a 50-50 split against each other and one guards against 4-gate - well, I guess what I'm saying is that you're missing the point with this comment by glossing over the details, which is that you can get an anti-4-gate build really really close to just a pure tech build. That's why this is a big deal - don't gloss it over with logic that is technically true, but reads in an incredibly misleading way.
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I disagree, 250+ gas to hold off a potential 4wg, that precludes making an expansion, is absolutely going to be behind someone that takes a risk or scouts that there won't be a 4wg coming, and plays greedy. You might be able to get a window where you have better tech than a 4wg player, but you're looking at like, a window where you have a +1 upgrade advantage, or one more collossus than he does, advantages that force you to make use of a timing to make the best of it. A long term tech or economy advantage needs to be larger.
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I used the robo alternative in most of my recent pvp games. on a side note: I only met one 4 gate which was very late, but i am pretty sure i would be able to hold a perfect 4 gate most of the times. (sometimes i messed up the build a little)
I think the build is very nice but i have one big problem with it.
The lack of scouting for rushes (2 gate, canon rush, wierd other cheese). At least at my level (mid-high master EU) i get rushed very often in PvP. I am terrible at defending 2 gates and canon rushes so i was always scouting after pylon to be save against those before i started doing this build.
The thing is the only map where u can't get rushed imho is Tal'darim Altar which i have vetoed anyways.^^
We have left
Arid Plateau (2)
Xel'Naga Caverns (2)
Antiga Shipyard (4)
Entombed Valley (4)
Metalopolis (4)*
Shakuras Plateau (4)
The Shattered Temple (4)
where u can at least proxy gate at the xel naga tower. So in my opinion it does not make sense to not scout early. As a result of the lack of scouting you will die to rushes. All this just to be save against 4 gate which is not that common anymore anyways.
So i was thinking about scouting after gate and keep doing this build. I rather speculate on the 4 gate beeing late or the possibility of me delaying it by some seconds than dying to rushes.
Like i said i do not have too much experience with that build against 4 gate, but souldn't it be possible to deny him high ground vision, if you just position yourself at the bottom of your ramp, until he warpted in his first wave? If that would be possible you need the sentry some secondes later when he tries to walk up the ramp. That would solve the whole early scouting and then delayed sentry problem.
Edit: sry i must have missed some comments. this was already mentioned some pages before.
Not sure how the timing works out with the scout after gateway. Has someone already tested that?
Maybe its better to change the BO slightly (get 13 gate instead maybe?).
Another problem i was confronted with when i tested it on ladder is the gas steal. Even with the gas steal there is the possibility of an incoming 4 gate (even so its does not make that much sense imho). Maybe just get 3 gates and a lot of stuff and transition then?^^
@dtmwerks
did u read the guide?
Are you sure?
This is like the most economic+most tech greedy build which does not die to 4 gate. And you are asking why u dont 4 gate yourself? that makes absolutely no sense at all.
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On January 15 2012 17:15 GoldenH wrote:
I disagree, 250+ gas to hold off a potential 4wg, that precludes making an expansion, is absolutely going to be behind someone that takes a risk or scouts that there won't be a 4wg coming, and plays greedy. You might be able to get a window where you have better tech than a 4wg player, but you're looking at like, a window where you have a +1 upgrade advantage, or one more collossus than he does, advantages that force you to make use of a timing to make the best of it. A long term tech or economy advantage needs to be larger.
Are most of your games really so close that the oppotunity cost between 2 sentries and whatever else they have is the deciding factor? I mean - don't get me wrong, I'm bad at this game - but it seems to me that most of the pro games I watch are won and lost due to reaction to harassment, angles of attack, positioning of power units, and the like and not something like "well I made 3 more stalkers and you used those resources on zealots and sentries so you're boned".
Do keep in mind that if you don't have sentries when a 4-gate hits and you didn't also 4-gate there's nothing you can really do.
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On January 15 2012 17:15 GoldenH wrote:
I disagree, 250+ gas to hold off a potential 4wg, that precludes making an expansion, is absolutely going to be behind someone that takes a risk or scouts that there won't be a 4wg coming, and plays greedy. You might be able to get a window where you have better tech than a 4wg player, but you're looking at like, a window where you have a +1 upgrade advantage, or one more collossus than he does, advantages that force you to make use of a timing to make the best of it. A long term tech or economy advantage needs to be larger.
I dont get your point at all.
250 gas? You get 1 sentry which u need anyways for guardian shield.
Play more greedy? how? you getting your tech quite fast.
You can always play greedy but then in the end and you will get punished for it because people blindly will hit timings where you are not save or even notice that you are not save and attack you.
I wonder how you scout 4 gate or not 4 gate 100%? There are so many possiblities with gas cancel etc or 3 gate pressure with 2 gas that you can't scout and say "ah well lets don't build units at all"...
So i dont see whats your problem.
Worst case scenario your oppononent plays greedy like a noob and just builds one stalker to chase your probe away. So what? His tech will be some seconds earlier and then? its not like you loose your game because of that...
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On January 16 2012 12:13 Treehead wrote:
Do keep in mind that if you don't have sentries when a 4-gate hits and you didn't also 4-gate there's nothing you can really do.
Wrong. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=292003
Although there can be an arguement about which build is stronger and gets you in a more advantageous position in a PvP after holding off a 4 gate, he is just stating a fact. And that fact is you are using a LOT of your gas gained by your second assimilator into extra sentries that don't justify a 100-gas investment in a gas-intensive game (PvP, where everything is gas-related)
And I'm just curious, but have you tested your builds against IoRemark's 4 gate yet? I want to see if it can withstand a pressured early-game with pylons up in your face etc. etc. Thanks again for the guide :D
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Sorry but i will still roflstomp you with 4 gate, mb that works on american ladder but as i read through here an agressive first zelot into stalker push will punish this very hard.
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less 4gate on ladder... yay!!!
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On January 16 2012 19:10 MooLen wrote:
Sorry but i will still roflstomp you with 4 gate, mb that works on american ladder but as i read through here an agressive first zelot into stalker push will punish this very hard.
Although I agree that multiple sentry defenses might be cracked by early pressure, I don't see the point in bringing in ladder differences. Personally I've played on the korean servers with lag and still beating mid-high masters with a 90%+ ratio over 20 or so games. I doubt European is AS strong as you make it out to be in comparison to NA (unless of course EU is harder than KR, in which case I apologize) That being said, 4 gate still isn't the most viable strat nowadays, but again, no one so far has been able to punish alej's strategies.
That's why I encourage him to play a GM-level protoss and see if his build still survives versus a super aggressive four gate, any word on that yet? T.T If it is still safe, I'll look at bit more into these builds just to vary up my style.
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On January 16 2012 13:24 SaroVati wrote:Show nested quote +On January 16 2012 12:13 Treehead wrote:
Do keep in mind that if you don't have sentries when a 4-gate hits and you didn't also 4-gate there's nothing you can really do. Wrong. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=292003Although there can be an arguement about which build is stronger and gets you in a more advantageous position in a PvP after holding off a 4 gate, he is just stating a fact. And that fact is you are using a LOT of your gas gained by your second assimilator into extra sentries that don't justify a 100-gas investment in a gas-intensive game (PvP, where everything is gas-related) And I'm just curious, but have you tested your builds against IoRemark's 4 gate yet? I want to see if it can withstand a pressured early-game with pylons up in your face etc. etc. Thanks again for the guide :D
I meant my statement with regards to how you can react to a 4-gate. Obviously if your rush hits first and is stronger, that's another story. I was commenting on greedier builds and 4-gates, not other rushes.
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actually, by considering it as dead you're bringing it to life again. Cuz then people will play builds that aren't safe vs 4gate and suddenly its viable again.
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On January 17 2012 04:25 Treehead wrote:Show nested quote +On January 16 2012 13:24 SaroVati wrote:On January 16 2012 12:13 Treehead wrote:
Do keep in mind that if you don't have sentries when a 4-gate hits and you didn't also 4-gate there's nothing you can really do. Wrong. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=292003Although there can be an arguement about which build is stronger and gets you in a more advantageous position in a PvP after holding off a 4 gate, he is just stating a fact. And that fact is you are using a LOT of your gas gained by your second assimilator into extra sentries that don't justify a 100-gas investment in a gas-intensive game (PvP, where everything is gas-related) And I'm just curious, but have you tested your builds against IoRemark's 4 gate yet? I want to see if it can withstand a pressured early-game with pylons up in your face etc. etc. Thanks again for the guide :D I meant my statement with regards to how you can react to a 4-gate. Obviously if your rush hits first and is stronger, that's another story. I was commenting on greedier builds and 4-gates, not other rushes.
Er it's a 3 chrono on nexus with 2 gas that get fully saturated. How is that a rush? It actually chrono's more probes out than any of the listed 1 gate tech builds for this thread, but that's something off topic I guess. Thanks for clarifying that you meant a REACTION to four-gate though, that actually means quite a bit lol 
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Thanks alej, I think this is my favourite of your pvp writeups so far. =)
How important is it to have your gates close to the ramp, so your sentries spawn close enough to FF? I like to put my pylon/gates back away from the cliffs/ramp so that I am out of range of the first wave of cannons that would go up in the base. I dunno if this really matters but it makes me feel safer against cannons, and even 2gate proxy. (The strategic target of your pylon/gate is farther from their entry point/vision).
Anyway, do you think your build suffers too much from having your gates far away from the ramp? It seems like the first sentry spawn is the important one, and should be out in time.
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Alej - you make defending 4Gate so easy!
I watched a couple of your replays and notice that you dont seem to scout much of their base. In the Antiga replay, you basically see the typical Gate/Core opening with 1 Gas, which to me could be 4Gate but could easily be anything else afterwards (3stalker, 2Gas tech build etc.). But meanwhile you were just scouting around your base with your 1zealot/1stalker for proxies, and notice their probe/1zealot/1stalker approach. So my question is, how do you work out if they are 4gating or not? Are you happy to just position your units at the ramp, and if they approach with the 1probe/1zealot/1stalker then its probably 4gate, but otherwise, happy days continue on teching.
Also in your OP, you say don't scout until 2nd pylon or Core, but how come in your Shakuras Plateau games (actually think this replay was in your other 4Gate guide, but anyhow same author ) you scout on 12Gate still?
So will all these builds work on maps with 1 ramp but no secondary ramp (e.g. Metal)?
Sorry for the billions of questions!
Edit: Don't answer my last question - just realised you already mentioned this in the guide that it works on all maps with a ramp
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On January 11 2012 02:11 Alejandrisha wrote:Show nested quote +On January 11 2012 02:07 qwertzi wrote:
am I missing something, why do you build the second gate twice?
once at 29 and again at 32? the 2 gate builds get the 2nd gate on 29, tech structure on 32 and 3rd gate on 32. 1 gate builds will get tech structure on 29, gates (2) and (3) and 32 edit: oh i saw what you were talking about and fixed it. thank you!
hey Alej, I think this same mistake is on the 2Gate Robo build as well??
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On January 16 2012 12:13 Treehead wrote:Show nested quote +On January 15 2012 17:15 GoldenH wrote:
I disagree, 250+ gas to hold off a potential 4wg, that precludes making an expansion, is absolutely going to be behind someone that takes a risk or scouts that there won't be a 4wg coming, and plays greedy. You might be able to get a window where you have better tech than a 4wg player, but you're looking at like, a window where you have a +1 upgrade advantage, or one more collossus than he does, advantages that force you to make use of a timing to make the best of it. A long term tech or economy advantage needs to be larger. Are most of your games really so close that the oppotunity cost between 2 sentries and whatever else they have is the deciding factor? I mean - don't get me wrong, I'm bad at this game - but it seems to me that most of the pro games I watch are won and lost due to reaction to harassment, angles of attack, positioning of power units, and the like and not something like "well I made 3 more stalkers and you used those resources on zealots and sentries so you're boned". Do keep in mind that if you don't have sentries when a 4-gate hits and you didn't also 4-gate there's nothing you can really do.
Pretty much, yes. 250 gas that early is simply enormous. A tech build where you hold your ramp with zealots and cannons while spending all your gas on tech, will give you a significant late game advantage. My games are very tight because I try and get by on the bare minimum so that I have the biggest advantage later possible. If I am playing against terran or zerg losing more than 2 sentries will lose me the game, and in PVP 250 gas is basically a free nexus.
If you invest that much gas defending a 4 gate, he can just expand and catch up - and having the army advantage, you can do nothing to stop him. You absolutely must make a timing attack to make any advantage of your teching, and that makes you predictable which imo is more a handicap than the extra tech is worth.
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EPT
