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United States8476 Posts
On January 17 2012 13:37 GoldenH wrote:Show nested quote +On January 16 2012 12:13 Treehead wrote:On January 15 2012 17:15 GoldenH wrote:
I disagree, 250+ gas to hold off a potential 4wg, that precludes making an expansion, is absolutely going to be behind someone that takes a risk or scouts that there won't be a 4wg coming, and plays greedy. You might be able to get a window where you have better tech than a 4wg player, but you're looking at like, a window where you have a +1 upgrade advantage, or one more collossus than he does, advantages that force you to make use of a timing to make the best of it. A long term tech or economy advantage needs to be larger. Are most of your games really so close that the oppotunity cost between 2 sentries and whatever else they have is the deciding factor? I mean - don't get me wrong, I'm bad at this game - but it seems to me that most of the pro games I watch are won and lost due to reaction to harassment, angles of attack, positioning of power units, and the like and not something like "well I made 3 more stalkers and you used those resources on zealots and sentries so you're boned". Do keep in mind that if you don't have sentries when a 4-gate hits and you didn't also 4-gate there's nothing you can really do. Pretty much, yes. 250 gas that early is simply enormous. A tech build where you hold your ramp with zealots and cannons while spending all your gas on tech, will give you a significant late game advantage. My games are very tight because I try and get by on the bare minimum so that I have the biggest advantage later possible. If I am playing against terran or zerg losing more than 2 sentries will lose me the game, and in PVP 250 gas is basically a free nexus. If you invest that much gas defending a 4 gate, he can just expand and catch up - and having the army advantage, you can do nothing to stop him. You absolutely must make a timing attack to make any advantage of your teching, and that makes you predictable which imo is more a handicap than the extra tech is worth.
Don't see where you're getting the 250 gas number from. The proposed set of builds in this thread are THE greediest builds I've seen to defend 4 gates with.
Pretty much every single relatively safe PvP build gets at least one sentry. You really want that early sentry building up energy to defend from 3 gate aggression or blink pokes.
You don't seem to understand that you don't make the 2nd sentry if you can rule out the possibility of 4 gates. For example, if your opponent hasn't run in with a probe plopping pylons at your ramp by 5:20-5:30, there's no need for a 2nd sentry.
Next, with the relatively drop in popularity of colossi openings, sentries have become very useful in the mid-game.
Gas also isn't everything in PvP anymore, especially minute differences in gas.
In contrast with these builds, a forge plus cannons puts you very far behind in the early game, making it impossible to punish greed. You're basically arguing for a build that no one has EVER used in top level PvP: 1 base forge play. 1 cannon plus mass zealots doesn't even stop a 4 gate, considering you're trying to save gas anyways. At some point, you're going to warp in sentries.
Your point about counter expanding doesn't even make any sense given that your suggestion is cannons to defend 4 gate. 1-2 sentries can punish an expanding player much more than forge + cannons can.
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I don't know how tight the chrono boosts/build times are for holding a 4 gate but I find that getting the 2nd assimilator first and then cutting a probe to start the zealot makes twilight and stargate openings feel smoother overall and safer against fast DTs.
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Your point seems to say that sentries are amazing offensively. This is only true if you use your opponents sim city against him AND he has zealots. The sad truth is FF don't do very much at all vs. ranged units of equal range. However, that's not my biggest point with responding to your post.
You say that gas isn't everything in PvP. I agree, it is not EVERYTHING, but it is the MAJORITY of what PvP is. Why do you think you steal gas in PvP more than any other matchup? It has much more to do with annoying the other player or forcing him to do a less gas-heavy build. It's because in a protoss composition, every key unit or upgrade costs a substantial number of gas (with chargelots being the exception I guess) A faster blink, a faster obs, more immortals, more colossus, more blink stalkers, hell even DT tech or more archons / upgrades all depend on the faster gas, which is really the point of doing a 4 gate defense with TWO gas. If it wasn't that important, you might as well 4 gate him back and call it even from there...
That being said, I also don't think 250 gas is a "minute difference" in gas. Especially early game, that's a full on minutes worth of gas from 2 geysers with 6 probes mining. In a 7 minute long early game, you really only have both of your assimilators saturated for a minute or two.
Another problem I see is that on a map like Antiga or Shakuras, if your opponent takes a gas that is 30 seconds later than yours and fakes a 4 gate and expands, their sentries will FF you off the ramp all day if you try to "punish him with sentries" I can see the justification for 1 sentry as guardian shield is necessary in any matchup in almost any phase of the game, but more sentries don't justify their heavy gas cost compared to their usefulness.
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United States8476 Posts
On January 17 2012 14:11 SaroVati wrote:
Your point seems to say that sentries are amazing offensively. This is only true if you use your opponents sim city against him AND he has zealots. The sad truth is FF don't do very much at all vs. ranged units of equal range. However, that's not my biggest point with responding to your post.
You say that gas isn't everything in PvP. I agree, it is not EVERYTHING, but it is the MAJORITY of what PvP is. Why do you think you steal gas in PvP more than any other matchup? It has much more to do with annoying the other player or forcing him to do a less gas-heavy build. It's because in a protoss composition, every key unit or upgrade costs a substantial number of gas (with chargelots being the exception I guess) A faster blink, a faster obs, more immortals, more colossus, more blink stalkers, hell even DT tech or more archons / upgrades all depend on the faster gas, which is really the point of doing a 4 gate defense with TWO gas. If it wasn't that important, you might as well 4 gate him back and call it even from there...
That being said, I also don't think 250 gas is a "minute difference" in gas. Especially early game, that's a full on minutes worth of gas from 2 geysers with 6 probes mining. In a 7 minute long early game, you really only have both of your assimilators saturated for a minute or two.
Another problem I see is that on a map like Antiga or Shakuras, if your opponent takes a gas that is 30 seconds later than yours and fakes a 4 gate and expands, their sentries will FF you off the ramp all day if you try to "punish him with sentries" I can see the justification for 1 sentry as guardian shield is necessary in any matchup in almost any phase of the game, but more sentries don't justify their heavy gas cost compared to their usefulness.
I don't know if you're responding to me, but if you are I think you're missing what I'm trying to say. I agree with what you said, but my main point was questioning this "250 gas count" this poster was referring to. And in most of my lines, I was contrasting a sentry defense with a forge defense. Obviously, I do think gas matters a lot in PvP, and 250 is a lot for PvP, but the builds the OP suggest don't sink 250 gas into nowhere. From my best guess, his 250 gas figure comes from 2 sentries and an extra stalker. And if i'm correct on that, I'll break it down like this:
1st sentry-100 gas: Every "safe" PvP build wants at least 1 sentry in the midgame for emergency forcefields.
2nd stalker-50 gas: Almost every PvP build gets at least 2 stalkers in the early game.
2nd sentry-100 gas: You don't even need this 2nd sentry unless you're being pressured.
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On January 17 2012 14:22 NrGmonk wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2012 14:11 SaroVati wrote:
Your point seems to say that sentries are amazing offensively. This is only true if you use your opponents sim city against him AND he has zealots. The sad truth is FF don't do very much at all vs. ranged units of equal range. However, that's not my biggest point with responding to your post.
You say that gas isn't everything in PvP. I agree, it is not EVERYTHING, but it is the MAJORITY of what PvP is. Why do you think you steal gas in PvP more than any other matchup? It has much more to do with annoying the other player or forcing him to do a less gas-heavy build. It's because in a protoss composition, every key unit or upgrade costs a substantial number of gas (with chargelots being the exception I guess) A faster blink, a faster obs, more immortals, more colossus, more blink stalkers, hell even DT tech or more archons / upgrades all depend on the faster gas, which is really the point of doing a 4 gate defense with TWO gas. If it wasn't that important, you might as well 4 gate him back and call it even from there...
That being said, I also don't think 250 gas is a "minute difference" in gas. Especially early game, that's a full on minutes worth of gas from 2 geysers with 6 probes mining. In a 7 minute long early game, you really only have both of your assimilators saturated for a minute or two.
Another problem I see is that on a map like Antiga or Shakuras, if your opponent takes a gas that is 30 seconds later than yours and fakes a 4 gate and expands, their sentries will FF you off the ramp all day if you try to "punish him with sentries" I can see the justification for 1 sentry as guardian shield is necessary in any matchup in almost any phase of the game, but more sentries don't justify their heavy gas cost compared to their usefulness. I don't know if you're responding to me, but if you are I think you're missing what I'm trying to say. I agree with what you said, but my main point was questioning this "250 gas count" this poster was referring to. And in most of my lines, I was contrasting a sentry defense with a forge defense. Obviously, I do think gas matters a lot in PvP, and 250 is a lot for PvP, but the builds the OP suggest don't sink 250 gas into nowhere. From my best guess, his 250 gas figure comes from 2 sentries and an extra stalker. And if i'm correct on that, I'll break it down like this: 1st sentry-100 gas: Every "safe" PvP build wants at least 1 sentry in the midgame for emergency forcefields. 2nd stalker-50 gas: Almost every PvP build gets at least 2 stalkers in the early game. 2nd sentry-100 gas: You don't even need this 2nd sentry unless you're being pressured.
yeah I was a bit confused as to the 250 exact count as well, but I believe in most of all the builds alej has (the extremes being the 1 gate stargate), he gets 3, and FOUR for the extremely "safe" version. That in my opinion is early gas that should NEVER be allocated to pure sentry use unless it's PvZ where the opponent only has melee and short-ranged units for their early-mid game. That's really my only concern with these sentry-heavy builds.
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1 sentry + 2 stalkers + warp gate = 250 gas. plus maybe another sentry? As another poster noted, that is yes, a full minute of gas production; it also means things like having a nexus a full minute earlier, having an extra collosus, or being up by 2 upgrades instead of one. But everyone gets sentry + warp gate?
Sure, but this 'safe' spending of resources adds up, compare the economic advantage of a FFE against zerg or the tech advantage of double upgrades against terran; the sort of 'middle of the road' strategy advocated by the OP may allow you to tech somewhat while still defending a 4 gate; but if you do that, you have less of an advantage than simply risking that he may 4 gate you without your scouting it; so much less that I don't feel it's really an advantage at all.
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United States8476 Posts
On January 18 2012 01:36 GoldenH wrote:
1 sentry + 2 stalkers + warp gate = 250 gas. plus maybe another sentry? As another poster noted, that is yes, a full minute of gas production; it also means things like having a nexus a full minute earlier, having an extra collosus, or being up by 2 upgrades instead of one. But everyone gets sentry + warp gate?
Sure, but this 'safe' spending of resources adds up, compare the economic advantage of a FFE against zerg or the tech advantage of double upgrades against terran; the sort of 'middle of the road' strategy advocated by the OP may allow you to tech somewhat while still defending a 4 gate; but if you do that, you have less of an advantage than simply risking that he may 4 gate you without your scouting it; so much less that I don't feel it's really an advantage at all.
So you suggest playing PvP without warpgates, sentries, or stalkers?
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United Kingdom36161 Posts
On January 18 2012 03:17 NrGmonk wrote:Show nested quote +On January 18 2012 01:36 GoldenH wrote:
1 sentry + 2 stalkers + warp gate = 250 gas. plus maybe another sentry? As another poster noted, that is yes, a full minute of gas production; it also means things like having a nexus a full minute earlier, having an extra collosus, or being up by 2 upgrades instead of one. But everyone gets sentry + warp gate?
Sure, but this 'safe' spending of resources adds up, compare the economic advantage of a FFE against zerg or the tech advantage of double upgrades against terran; the sort of 'middle of the road' strategy advocated by the OP may allow you to tech somewhat while still defending a 4 gate; but if you do that, you have less of an advantage than simply risking that he may 4 gate you without your scouting it; so much less that I don't feel it's really an advantage at all. So you suggest playing PvP without warpgates, sentries, or stalkers?
It's called 2 gate proxy 
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On January 17 2012 14:40 SaroVati wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2012 14:22 NrGmonk wrote:On January 17 2012 14:11 SaroVati wrote:
Your point seems to say that sentries are amazing offensively. This is only true if you use your opponents sim city against him AND he has zealots. The sad truth is FF don't do very much at all vs. ranged units of equal range. However, that's not my biggest point with responding to your post.
You say that gas isn't everything in PvP. I agree, it is not EVERYTHING, but it is the MAJORITY of what PvP is. Why do you think you steal gas in PvP more than any other matchup? It has much more to do with annoying the other player or forcing him to do a less gas-heavy build. It's because in a protoss composition, every key unit or upgrade costs a substantial number of gas (with chargelots being the exception I guess) A faster blink, a faster obs, more immortals, more colossus, more blink stalkers, hell even DT tech or more archons / upgrades all depend on the faster gas, which is really the point of doing a 4 gate defense with TWO gas. If it wasn't that important, you might as well 4 gate him back and call it even from there...
That being said, I also don't think 250 gas is a "minute difference" in gas. Especially early game, that's a full on minutes worth of gas from 2 geysers with 6 probes mining. In a 7 minute long early game, you really only have both of your assimilators saturated for a minute or two.
Another problem I see is that on a map like Antiga or Shakuras, if your opponent takes a gas that is 30 seconds later than yours and fakes a 4 gate and expands, their sentries will FF you off the ramp all day if you try to "punish him with sentries" I can see the justification for 1 sentry as guardian shield is necessary in any matchup in almost any phase of the game, but more sentries don't justify their heavy gas cost compared to their usefulness. I don't know if you're responding to me, but if you are I think you're missing what I'm trying to say. I agree with what you said, but my main point was questioning this "250 gas count" this poster was referring to. And in most of my lines, I was contrasting a sentry defense with a forge defense. Obviously, I do think gas matters a lot in PvP, and 250 is a lot for PvP, but the builds the OP suggest don't sink 250 gas into nowhere. From my best guess, his 250 gas figure comes from 2 sentries and an extra stalker. And if i'm correct on that, I'll break it down like this: 1st sentry-100 gas: Every "safe" PvP build wants at least 1 sentry in the midgame for emergency forcefields. 2nd stalker-50 gas: Almost every PvP build gets at least 2 stalkers in the early game. 2nd sentry-100 gas: You don't even need this 2nd sentry unless you're being pressured. yeah I was a bit confused as to the 250 exact count as well, but I believe in most of all the builds alej has (the extremes being the 1 gate stargate), he gets 3, and FOUR for the extremely "safe" version. That in my opinion is early gas that should NEVER be allocated to pure sentry use unless it's PvZ where the opponent only has melee and short-ranged units for their early-mid game. That's really my only concern with these sentry-heavy builds.
for the last time, you only go over 1 sentry if you see pylons. you only go over 2 if you need the 3rd ff, ie he is 4gating with those pylons.
i've never been in a situation where, if my opponent opens 4gate and i use this build to shut it down, that i cannot immediately go kill him once my blink has finished. thus to you who says that using sentries to hold 4gate will put you behind against a 4gater--whose name i will not say to save the embarrassment-- how exactly do you figure? what can some one who has been on 1 gas up until the 7 minute mark do against me when i have blink finishing off of a 1 gate twilight opener?
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On January 16 2012 19:10 MooLen wrote:
Sorry but i will still roflstomp you with 4 gate, mb that works on american ladder but as i read through here an agressive first zelot into stalker push will punish this very hard.
lol
thanks for your input. i'll go adapt a European version that works against better players brb
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Care to play a few games some time? Id like to personally test your builds out if you don't mind . It'll clear a lot of questions quickly for me 
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sure leave char code here or pm me
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On January 18 2012 03:17 NrGmonk wrote:Show nested quote +On January 18 2012 01:36 GoldenH wrote:
1 sentry + 2 stalkers + warp gate = 250 gas. plus maybe another sentry? As another poster noted, that is yes, a full minute of gas production; it also means things like having a nexus a full minute earlier, having an extra collosus, or being up by 2 upgrades instead of one. But everyone gets sentry + warp gate?
Sure, but this 'safe' spending of resources adds up, compare the economic advantage of a FFE against zerg or the tech advantage of double upgrades against terran; the sort of 'middle of the road' strategy advocated by the OP may allow you to tech somewhat while still defending a 4 gate; but if you do that, you have less of an advantage than simply risking that he may 4 gate you without your scouting it; so much less that I don't feel it's really an advantage at all. So you suggest playing PvP without warpgates, sentries, or stalkers?
I'll bend over backwards not to build stalkers (and got to masters on this mindset), though I normally do get warpgate and a couple sentries late midgame. But sure, if you have a blink stalker build or whatever, fine, my point is more that resigning to it is the difference between accepting a timing advantage when you could have a material one.
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RevSaroVati.500 add me look forward to the games
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Why would you do this on for example metalpolis? (just based on your screenshot)
Ever since blizzard removed close spawns on Shattered and Metal (which is good) 2gate proxy is actually not uncommon. If you scout on 17 at the earliest you'd get crushed.
Ofc I was just basing it on the fact that you do this on metal based on the screenshot, perhaps you do not intend for it to be used on metal/shattered
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On January 18 2012 07:58 GoldenH wrote:
I'll bend over backwards not to build stalkers (and got to masters on this mindset), though I normally do get warpgate and a couple sentries late midgame. But sure, if you have a blink stalker build or whatever, fine, my point is more that resigning to it is the difference between accepting a timing advantage when you could have a material one.
You dont build stalkers? you dont want to waste gas on sentrys? How do you chase away the probe? How do you defend any pressure?
Sentries late midgame? Are you kidding me? For what reason? To fight charglot archons or colosses?
Sometimes i wonder if some people that post here in the strategy forum play this game at all.
Some really capable members here are putting a lot of effort in helping the community out. Its really painful to see with what ignorant comments they have to deal sometimes.
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On January 18 2012 08:19 OrbitalPlane wrote:Show nested quote +On January 18 2012 07:58 GoldenH wrote:
I'll bend over backwards not to build stalkers (and got to masters on this mindset), though I normally do get warpgate and a couple sentries late midgame. But sure, if you have a blink stalker build or whatever, fine, my point is more that resigning to it is the difference between accepting a timing advantage when you could have a material one. You dont build stalkers? you dont want to waste gas on sentrys? How do you chase away the probe? How do you defend any pressure? Sentries late midgame? Are you kidding me? For what reason? To fight charglot archons or colosses? Sometimes i wonder if some people that post here in the strategy forum play this game at all. Some really capable members here are putting a lot of effort in helping the community out. Its really painful to see with what ignorant comments they have to deal sometimes.
I got no idea what this guy is talking about...maybe he is talking about a different game to starcraft.
Totally agree with you OrbitalPlane on the fantastic effort the experienced players put in to help others. They dont have to, they could keep their secrets to themselves and keep smashing the ladder, but they do.
Now ummm...on a completely unrelated topic Alej, could you please answer my previous questions in this thread? 
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Maybe i can help you with that.^^
If your opponent does a perfect 4 gate you will see his pylons warping in at the edge near your ramp. This is early enough because your build only deviates by 1 chrono on warpgate and warping in a sentry after that. If there are no pylons there is no need to react. Just go on with your build you will be able to hold delayed 4 gates.
In my opinion its not 100% save to scout later then after gate (except taldarim) and be save against rushes. (With the assumption that you dont have superior micro) So what you can do is the same buildorder but with an earlier scout. i think alej even mentioned that the first 2 sentry timing should not deviate with an earlier scout. I didn't had time to test the timings with an earlier scout but i think thats what i am going to do. Even if everything is delayed by some seconds you should still be able to defend 4 gates imho.
I am also thinking about not scouting the opponent at all on 2 or 3 player maps. Just watching out for proxies and then returning home. There is nothing interesting to scout in their base since you do your BO no matter what you scout.
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On January 18 2012 09:20 OrbitalPlane wrote:
Maybe i can help you with that, too.^^
If your opponent does a perfect 4 gate you will see his pylons warping in at the edge near your ramp. This is early enough because your build only deviates by 1 chrono on warpgate and warping in a sentry after that.
In my opinion its not 100% save to scout later then after gate (except taldarim) and be save against rushes. (With the assumption that you dont have superior micro) So what you can do his the same buildorder but with an earlier scout. i think alej even mentioned that the first 2 sentry timing should not deviate with an earlier scout. I didn't had time to test the timings with an earlier scout but i think thats what i am going to do. Even if everything is delayed by some seconds you should still be able to defend 4 gates imho.
I am also thinking about not scouting the opponent at all on 2 or 3 player maps. Just watching out for proxies and then returning home. There is nothing interesting to scout in their base since you do your BO no matter what you scout.
Thanks alot
So with these builds, we dont really deviate from it unless its for rushes, in which case just scouting around our base is enough? What about if someone does like an Adelscott 2-gate zealot build where the buildings are in his base, so you wont see any proxy pylons, but will see the relatively early zealot pressure still?
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I actually faced some sort of Adelscott 2-gate zealot build when i tested this build. But it was a crazy variant, he proxied his 2 gates. I dunno if you can hold it with better micro but i was not able to. Someone else has to help you out here.
That was like the first time i faced such a build in hundred of games. Probably because its kinda easy to stop if you scout it.
So i guess scout or speculate that you dont face it.^^
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EPT
