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On January 12 2012 03:34 Alejandrisha wrote:
i think those cb's that end in probe cuts must be efficient somehow, as i regularly see hero use a 3rd cb after his pylon before core that end in a probe cut after core.. if he does it i figure it must be ok :D
HerO is an absolutely fantastic player, but I wouldn't use him as an authority on theoretical build order optimisation.. he keeps doing things like putting down his first pylon at like 160 minerals in pvz >_< IMO he just makes up for any little mistakes like that early on with doing everything else really well.
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On January 12 2012 03:52 Fenneth wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2012 03:34 Alejandrisha wrote:
i think those cb's that end in probe cuts must be efficient somehow, as i regularly see hero use a 3rd cb after his pylon before core that end in a probe cut after core.. if he does it i figure it must be ok :D
HerO is an absolutely fantastic player, but I wouldn't use him as an authority on theoretical build order optimisation.. he keeps doing things like putting down his first pylon at like 160 minerals in pvz >_< IMO he just makes up for any little mistakes like that early on with doing everything else really well.
Placing a pylon at that time doesn't mean he doesn't know how to use chronoboost. So I'd probably copy HerO's chronoboost (which I actually saw and was thinking about too from his stream) over taking your word on his credibility :/
Just pointless to bring up points like that imo.
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On January 12 2012 03:52 Fenneth wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2012 03:34 Alejandrisha wrote:
i think those cb's that end in probe cuts must be efficient somehow, as i regularly see hero use a 3rd cb after his pylon before core that end in a probe cut after core.. if he does it i figure it must be ok :D
HerO is an absolutely fantastic player, but I wouldn't use him as an authority on theoretical build order optimisation.. he keeps doing things like putting down his first pylon at like 160 minerals in pvz >_< IMO he just makes up for any little mistakes like that early on with doing everything else really well.
haha i've seen him do that quite a bit :D
while he sometimes gets lazy on ladder when he's streaming, i still learn a lot from his decision making. it's funny because when you watch hero, it's really easy to see what he is thinking as he is playing. often you catch him while he's in the middle of making a decision on building placement or tech path or WG unit choice and it's cool to watch him solve problems.
that being said, i haven't adopted this 3rd cb on nexus before core as i feel it is a tad wonky ^^
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How do these openers fare against your earlier 3-gate pressure build? Obviously, this one's ahead on tech - but how many probes can you lose without being behind?
Edit: I ask because it looks like you'll probably have to pull some probes if you run into the early 3-gate since this doesn't get out 2nd and 3rd sentries until well after 5:32 (which is, according to your other thread http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=273465 , when you'd need them). I assume the stalker timing is still sufficient to block out high ground pylons, no?
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The cut length should be a little longer on maps with only 2 close patches on on annoying maps like Shakuras where mineral stacking doesn't work well on the close patches. But that chrono is generally worth maybe 4-8 seconds of probe production.
I want the extra gas partially so that it's easier to build phoenixes while getting 4-gated, but also in the case where I'm not getting 4-gated, I want to have enough gas to afford a sentry, chronoboosted phoenixes, and a timely robo. Gas on 14 and 20 seems to make me slow my phoenix production in order to get a robo after my 2nd phoenix (in order to be safe against DT's and blink), but maybe I'm just doing something wrong.
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On January 12 2012 03:58 kcdc wrote:
The cut length should be a little longer on maps with only 2 close patches on on annoying maps like Shakuras where mineral stacking doesn't work well on the close patches. But that chrono is generally worth maybe 4-8 seconds of probe production.
I want the extra gas partially so that it's easier to build phoenixes while getting 4-gated, but also in the case where I'm not getting 4-gated, I want to have enough gas to afford a sentry, chronoboosted phoenixes, and a timely robo. Gas on 14 and 20 seems to make me slow my phoenix production in order to get a robo after my 2nd phoenix (in order to be safe against DT's and blink), but maybe I'm just doing something wrong.
14/20 gas is pretty good for pvp in my eyes. i feel like gassing on 18 really slows down my infrastructure and would obviously screw up the 17 zeal - stalker - cb'd stalker - sentry chain that the opener is based around. when i'm not getting 4gated, the robo after 3rd phoenix seems quick enough and the phoenix timing doesn't feel sluggish at all. maybe you're not doing anything wrong, but just asking for too much :D
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after looking closely at the ideal timings, I am confident this build would have serious trouble with a well executed 10 or 11 3 gate pressure with 5 chrono on WG.
- With the late scout (after cyber?), his stalker would likely be out before you reached his base, so you'd be in the dark.
- your 3rd stalker pops at the same time as his, so you won't have a very big window to shut down pylons.
- your first sentry doesn't pop until he is already pushing up your ramp with 5 stalkers and a zealot. FF will be too late to stop the second round of high ground warp ins
- your warpgate and 2nd and 3rd gateways are severely delayed compared to almost any other 3 gate I've seen. He will get 2 rounds of warp ins on you before your first finishes, assuming you haven't died already.
Obviously, this all assumes a very well executed aggressive build from the opponent, but I am dubious of a build made just to defeat 4 gate that can't hold up against other wg timing attacks, and intentionally declines to scout to boot.
there are lots of anti 4 gate builds for maps with ramps.
What I'm really interested in seeing is something to kill it on Tal Darim...
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It's really base on the map though. If it's on TDA, 4 gates is the only choice.
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On January 12 2012 05:30 quillian wrote:
after looking closely at the ideal timings, I am confident this build would have serious trouble with a well executed 10 or 11 3 gate pressure with 5 chrono on WG.
- With the late scout (after cyber?), his stalker would likely be out before you reached his base, so you'd be in the dark.
- your 3rd stalker pops at the same time as his, so you won't have a very big window to shut down pylons.
- your first sentry doesn't pop until he is already pushing up your ramp with 5 stalkers and a zealot. FF will be too late to stop the second round of high ground warp ins
- your warpgate and 2nd and 3rd gateways are severely delayed compared to almost any other 3 gate I've seen. He will get 2 rounds of warp ins on you before your first finishes, assuming you haven't died already.
Obviously, this all assumes a very well executed aggressive build from the opponent, but I am dubious of a build made just to defeat 4 gate that can't hold up against other wg timing attacks, and intentionally declines to scout to boot.
there are lots of anti 4 gate builds for maps with ramps.
What I'm really interested in seeing is something to kill it on Tal Darim...
well forget tda for the time being ^^
can you execute 10/11 gate builds 100%? i'd like to run this a few times against it if so
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The extinction of one of the legendary builds of old?  lol
Great guide!
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On January 12 2012 08:04 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:The extinction of one of the legendary builds of old? lol Great guide!
yep. i think all pressure builds are going to revolve around 11gate with 5 cb on wg. not the 11 gates you saw at hsc. those were not the kinds of builds that kill some one or even do damage whatsoever. the tin man, on the other hand, has no heart.
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I would like a replay of you holding a 4 gate please (I`m plat and that`s why I need one :D ) ty ty for guide.
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I know a gm player that 4 gates every game. If you send your first units (before warp in), to kill his sentry, he can't really stop you
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On January 12 2012 22:38 Fossa wrote:
I know a gm player that 4 gates every game. If you send your first units (before warp in), to kill his sentry, he can't really stop you
1. Kill probe
2. Kill zealot
3. Kill stalker
4. Kill next stalker
Do all this while keeping your sentry alive (his stalkers arent THAT fast)
5. Warp in next sentry if he is persistant
6. Repeat 5 until you win 
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United Kingdom36161 Posts
On January 12 2012 03:58 kcdc wrote:
The cut length should be a little longer on maps with only 2 close patches on on annoying maps like Shakuras where mineral stacking doesn't work well on the close patches. But that chrono is generally worth maybe 4-8 seconds of probe production.
Made me chuckle, Shakuras patches always piss me off too.
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On January 12 2012 21:03 Rainofpain wrote:
I would like a replay of you holding a 4 gate please (I`m plat and that`s why I need one :D ) ty ty for guide.
1st two replays in replay section of OP one of the is 4g other is wp 4g gogo
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On January 13 2012 06:21 Alejandrisha wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2012 21:03 Rainofpain wrote:
I would like a replay of you holding a 4 gate please (I`m plat and that`s why I need one :D ) ty ty for guide. 1st to replays in replay section of OP one of the is 4g other is wp 4g gogo
The replay where you held the 4 gate was very educational, I was shocked it`s as simple as FFs at your ramp :D
This guide was vital in getting me to stop 4 gating and killing 4 gates, thanks so much. Have some of my happiness :D :D :D :D :D :D :D <3 <3 ♥ ♥ ♥ :D
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On January 13 2012 07:08 Rainofpain wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2012 06:21 Alejandrisha wrote:On January 12 2012 21:03 Rainofpain wrote:
I would like a replay of you holding a 4 gate please (I`m plat and that`s why I need one :D ) ty ty for guide. 1st to replays in replay section of OP one of the is 4g other is wp 4g gogo The replay where you held the 4 gate was very educational, I was shocked it`s as simple as FFs at your ramp :D This guide was vital in getting me to stop 4 gating and killing 4 gates, thanks so much. Have some of my happiness :D :D :D :D :D :D :D <3 <3 ♥ ♥ ♥ :D
thank you, i will take that happiness with me ^^
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EPT
