EPT[G] PvP - 4 Gate is Dead - Page 2
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caradoc
Canada3022 Posts
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TheExodus
293 Posts
On January 11 2012 03:17 caradoc wrote: What about losing to an apparent but not-all-in 4gate in the long term via spending too much money on gas for sentries? I'm thinking of cases where your opponent takes the low ground, warps enough stuff in to make it look like he's being all-in aggressive, and techs behind it, forcing you to spend a lot on sentries to keep a constant ff up. Hopefully you're not idle between sentries, but builds units enough to break the part of his army that's outside your base... | ||
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kcdc
United States2311 Posts
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BoggieMan
520 Posts
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iamke55
United States2806 Posts
On January 11 2012 01:59 BronzeKnee wrote: Nice guide. One small mistake though with FF or the build and the 4 Gate still has a chance sadly. Also, if your opponent fakes a 4 Gate and goes without a Sentry, you are behind as mentioned by Mark. I lost twice to a Korean who opened 2 Gate straight into Colossus simply because he had more gas units (he only built a single Stalker until his Colossus were paid for) when I opened Sentry first. He would have died easily to a 4 Gate though. If you run out of ideas for another guide, please make one explaining how to stop a cannon rush on Metalopolis effectively. I've tested so many things and still have not been able to figure it out. The easiest way is to make a wall at your ramp with your first pylon and gateway. Then if you see a cannon rush or proxy gates, you just finish the wall with a second pylon. This can also be good against 4 gate later. The wall can be picked off by stalkers and an observer, though, so you have to be prepared for defending that. | ||
Zealously
East Gorteau22261 Posts
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las91
United States5080 Posts
On January 11 2012 04:08 kcdc wrote: Good work. Blink and robo complete. Now optimize for me the thinnest possible stargate opening that's safe against 4 gate. Please? http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=296637 EGAxlav's phoenix opening is incredibly thin, I've been working on it in some practice games against no one and the timings feel relatively safe. It's similar to both of the builds Alej posted here in the fact it gets a sentry in time for a balls to the wall 4gate (you can start the sentry as early as 5:10 or so if you're optimized and can chrono boost it as well). | ||
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tehemperorer
United States2183 Posts
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Yokoblue
Canada594 Posts
On January 11 2012 04:08 kcdc wrote: Good work. Blink and robo complete. Now optimize for me the thinnest possible stargate opening that's safe against 4 gate. Please? It was already done in the PvP Phoenix build, its 2 gates mass sentry, only drop stargate when you see no attack at 6-6:30. You can get 3 gates for an easier hold if you see a "obvious 4 gates". Thats what I used with my phoenix Build. Axslav 2 gates and I hold it most of the time (miss FF kill you  ) | ||
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kcdc
United States2311 Posts
On January 11 2012 04:44 las91 wrote: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=296637 EGAxlav's phoenix opening is incredibly thin, I've been working on it in some practice games against no one and the timings feel relatively safe. It's similar to both of the builds Alej posted here in the fact it gets a sentry in time for a balls to the wall 4gate (you can start the sentry as early as 5:10 or so if you're optimized and can chrono boost it as well). Yeah, I'm not sure I like that opening. I don't know why it gets 3 stalkers before the sentry when 2 is enough, and I don't really love chronoboosting my gate since speeding resources spent in your gateway slows your extra buildings. I like Alej's 1 gate twilight opening better, and I'll probably try to adapt it to get a stargate instead of a twilight. That is, unless Alej has a perfectly fine-tuned build order for me to just copy. | ||
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Alejandrisha
United States6565 Posts
On January 11 2012 04:08 kcdc wrote: Good work. Blink and robo complete. Now optimize for me the thinnest possible stargate opening that's safe against 4 gate. Please? yeah it's like done. i had to pass out after i finished the builds this morning haha | ||
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Geiko
France1939 Posts
On January 11 2012 05:08 kcdc wrote: Yeah, I'm not sure I like that opening. I don't know why it gets 3 stalkers before the sentry when 2 is enough, and I don't really love chronoboosting my gate since speeding resources spent in your gateway slows your extra buildings. I like Alej's 1 gate twilight opening better, and I'll probably try to adapt it to get a stargate instead of a twilight. That is, unless Alej has a perfectly fine-tuned build order for me to just copy. The thing with stargate openings is that you need to defend with only 2 gates as 3 gate stargate is not optimal compared to 2 gate Stargate. This means that you can't just adapt this 3 gate defense for phoenix play. | ||
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jaminski
England84 Posts
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kcdc
United States2311 Posts
On January 11 2012 05:43 Geiko wrote: The thing with stargate openings is that you need to defend with only 2 gates as 3 gate stargate is not optimal compared to 2 gate Stargate. This means that you can't just adapt this 3 gate defense for phoenix play. Yeah, I'd cut out the 3rd gateway which doesn't seem to be used for 4-gate defense (since it won't be done in time), but rather is used later for stalker aggression. Compared to Axslav's BO, cutting out the third stalker should make it easier to afford the robo while producing phoenixes. | ||
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Trusty
New Zealand520 Posts
Silly question, but does this mean the TinMan is also dead? I notice the success of my TinMan's drops hugely if there is no above-ramp pylon... | ||
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hzflank
United Kingdom2991 Posts
Put your second pylon on the low ground, 1 tile from the wall? | ||
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hzflank
United Kingdom2991 Posts
The Sentry needs to be out before the Pylons are going up, if not the Probe (or Probes if you are a baller like me) can run up the ramp and plant down pylons on the high ground and the only thing left for you to do is type gg. This is assuming, as you did in the OP, that you aren't opening 3 Stalker or whatever in an attempt to pick off the Probe(s) before they reach your ramp. I don't see how 2 Stalkers could pick off 2 Probes coming up a ramp to build pylons, and even if they did, you have a Zealot and Stalker in your base too (who probably did a lot of damage to your Stalkers), and if your opponent micros them correctly, once the low ground pylons finish, he can use them for vision. You wall in the top of the ramp in the same way that you would with a gateway opening vs zerg. As I do that noobie-pylon-scouting thing, I will always scout my opponent before I make my second pylon. If I scout a standard 12 gateway opening then my second pylon goes at the top of the ramp and my next two buildings complete the wall. Any probe coming up will get hit by the zealot and stalker (even if it comes before the second stalker is out), and wont make it far enough to make a pylon. Two probes would be a problem, but I suppose if you scout it then you just complete the wall. | ||
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Alejandrisha
United States6565 Posts
on metal you want to get the most vision possible with your pylon. with your gate you want to seal off the space between mins and the side of your base so the probe can't zip through for vision/building + Show Spoiler + ![[image loading]](http://i1138.photobucket.com/albums/n536/alej15/Screenshot2012-01-0917_05_45.jpg) this is the tricky one: + Show Spoiler + ![[image loading]](http://i1138.photobucket.com/albums/n536/alej15/Screenshot2012-01-0917_05_56.jpg) this pylon sees the cannon rushes that kill you when you put your pylon farther to the left. for the 9 oclock spawn, you will probably have to run your probe through there regardless just because there's so much area. for antigua, you can wall the space between the geyser and the side of your base with a pylon in every position while getting good vision where the cannon rush would come from. however, many people will start the first pylon out of sight of even these pylons, so I recommend scouting with a probe anyway. + Show Spoiler + ![[image loading]](http://i1138.photobucket.com/albums/n536/alej15/Screenshot2012-01-0917_09_28.jpg) ![[image loading]](http://i1138.photobucket.com/albums/n536/alej15/Screenshot2012-01-0917_09_26.jpg) ![[image loading]](http://i1138.photobucket.com/albums/n536/alej15/Screenshot2012-01-0917_09_20.jpg) hopefully this will hold you over til a more comprehensive one drops ^^ | ||
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gdalam
104 Posts
Being as aggressive as possible with your first Zealot and Stalker (ie. rallied to his base) will force a fight before your opponent's second Stalker is out (on most map distances). If your micro is even half decent and your opponent wasn't watching his ramp at that exact moment, you should be able to win the fight or at least trade evenly. This will allow you to easily get your Probe into his main and build your Pylons, nullifying the fast Sentry. | ||
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Mattchew
United States5684 Posts
On January 11 2012 09:12 gdalam wrote: Am I the only person who walks up the ramp immediately with my first Zealot and Stalker when I 4 Gate? This build doesn't seem to have anything to address that. Being as aggressive as possible with your first Zealot and Stalker (ie. rallied to his base) will force a fight before your opponent's second Stalker is out (on most map distances). If your micro is even half decent and your opponent wasn't watching his ramp at that exact moment, you should be able to win the fight or at least trade evenly. This will allow you to easily get your Probe into his main and build your Pylons, nullifying the fast Sentry. If the other players gamesense is halfway decent they can pull probes + have the next unit popping out in their own base | ||
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