EPT[G] PvP - 4 Gate is Dead - Page 15
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etherealfall
Australia476 Posts
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Ea
United States121 Posts
On July 29 2012 00:57 Adonminus wrote: I feel that the 2 zealot 1 stalker variant of 4 gate still is pretty powerful and works. If I go 4 gate all my pvp match ups I win like 70-80% against high master/gms. If needed, I could provide some replays of me using it. This would be interesting to see. Is it just instead of zealot stalker stalker, you do zealot zealot stalker? I would imagine the 3 stalker rush would just crush this unless you CB the zealots and they arrive before the stalkers pop out? Also, these 1 gate/2 gate tech builds; how do they fair in comparison to mirror builds? These days I see 1 gate 26 tech builds that come out oh so much faster than 29, so wouldn't you fall behind using a 29 tech build? Or are these builds just to approach 4 gate? Thanks | ||
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LGStarcraft
United States40 Posts
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-MoOsE-
United States236 Posts
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Xanatoss
Germany539 Posts
On August 15 2012 02:25 -MoOsE- wrote: I have been doing the stargate build in here, but was having trouble against builds like 1 gate expo. I feel my nexus will be so late that I'm just behind. Is there anything I can do to counter this or build order change that will even it out. I played the Stargate builds adviced here for some time aswell. Their problem is beeing very passive and due to that giving you a hard time to figure out what your opponent is doing until phoenixes are out. The modification I did to adress that issue was going 1 Zealot 5 Stalker from 2 Gates with 2 Gas. Allows you to pressure really hard early on and thus revealing his Techpath. Phoenixes are delayed for a bit but this is made up by your strong army which forces him to warp in sentries to hold his ramp if he did some kind of 1 Gate Tech. Poorly executed example of mine doing this build:http://drop.sc/235475 If you have any questions feel free to ask. There is a lot more to write about this build but I am a bit in a hurry. | ||
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-MoOsE-
United States236 Posts
On August 15 2012 02:38 Xanatoss wrote: I played the Stargate builds adviced here for some time aswell. Their problem is beeing very passive and due to that giving you a hard time to figure out what your opponent is doing until phoenixes are out. The modification I did to adress that issue was going 1 Zealot 5 Stalker from 2 Gates with 2 Gas. Allows you to pressure really hard early on and thus revealing his Techpath. Phoenixes are delayed for a bit but this is made up by your strong army which forces him to warp in sentries to hold his ramp if he did some kind of 1 Gate Tech. Poorly executed example of mine doing this build:http://drop.sc/235475 If you have any questions feel free to ask. There is a lot more to write about this build but I am a bit in a hurry. I guess the main thing would be a blink attack would be harder to hold, at least I think. Also, do you do this against 2 gate builds or just 1 gate builds? | ||
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Xanatoss
Germany539 Posts
Against Blink/Obs it is oftentimes possible vs lesser Opponents to snipe their Observer with Obs/Phoenix and thus negating his ability to blink into my Main. I do this build irregardless of my opponents build because except scouting for Inbase-Proxies my first Probe leaves the Highground as late as 17 Food (Cycore). I think against 2 Gate Openings like 3 Stalker-Rush it is even better to do this because he loses the absolute safety through mapcontrol like he would have against an 1 Gate Build. Only two downsides of this is build is its vulnerability against 2 Gate Zealot (due to late scout; which diminishes partially by blind 2nd gate) and the fact that you cant end the game against non-greedy expand/tech-builds. Prime example of this is Blink-Expand off of a 3 Stalker Rush but for every Phoenix-Build it is impossible to kill that right away. Most of these games result in me falling back (after getting a pretty good impression what tech he choose) and both of us expanding (mostly faster by me because he has a really hard time to scout my followup and grade of commitment due to the high amount of stalkers on the map which negate even delayed Probesneaks). But I like 2 Base Games so that is no problem for me. | ||
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-MoOsE-
United States236 Posts
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Xanatoss
Germany539 Posts
By doing that he has to delay Phoenix production which allows you to catch up in the count even though your stargate has started later. I would say whatever you do, dont cancel the Stargate. Even though Phoenix-Mirror Games can snowball really fast, going Phoenix yourself if he does is imho the best situation but that may be influenced by my averseness to stalkers in the midgame. | ||
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Vanimar
220 Posts
The upside still being that it's a fairly simple build which everyone has trained enough to do it blind while sleeping in a coma, while most of the new builds do not yet have this advantage (especially mid-low master and below). Essentially I would say that 4 Gate has moved far away from being your "go to" build when entering the game, but depending on your scouting it still is a powerful tool in the protoss arsenal. | ||
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TheDougler
Canada8324 Posts
On August 15 2012 22:13 Vanimar wrote: I don't feel like 4Gate is dead. It merely has moved away from being the only option you have. It has receded even more as different build started to become viable, but against greedy opponents I still use it to somewhat great effect. The upside still being that it's a fairly simple build which everyone has trained enough to do it blind while sleeping in a coma, while most of the new builds do not yet have this advantage (especially mid-low master and below). Essentially I would say that 4 Gate has moved far away from being your "go to" build when entering the game, but depending on your scouting it still is a powerful tool in the protoss arsenal. Eh... I dunno. I've been using these builds for the past several months and haven't lost to a four gate with them in weeks. I always just feel the need to bump this thread though as it is just so essential to getting into PvP. | ||
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StarGalaxy
Germany744 Posts
If i didn't scout an early 2nd gate and an early 2nd gas i went for a fake 2nd gas 13 gate 4 gate. You get some free wins against super greedy builds but it's still a big gamble and not worth it overall imho. The higher you get in the ladder the people get good enough to defend 4 gate pretty easily even if they don't see it coming in the first place. | ||
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xHadoken
United States171 Posts
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kcdc
United States2311 Posts
PvP plays like poker where you make a read on your opponent and run with it. If you're much better than your opponent, you can gain a lead by executing better than them, but for the most part, out-guessing your opponent is the key to victory. | ||
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fireforce7
United States334 Posts
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DashedHopes
Canada414 Posts
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StarGalaxy
Germany744 Posts
On September 27 2012 04:13 kcdc wrote: ..., and while this build is safe against a 4 gate, it loses pretty hard to a 1 gate expand on most maps. I disagree. I use a lot of one gate expand builds and i win a lot with it but only because most players are not used to playing against it. If you use the OP blink stalker build with 4 gates it's nearly impossible to defend an early nexus. If you open with the OP robo you just have to build a warpprism and ff the opponent's ramp. If you play it out correctly there isn't much the opponent can do. I don't have a lot of experience with stargate play but with an immortal expand it's also very hard to defend. 1 gate expand is just a big gamble. You are ahead against late expands, late all ins but you die to any kind of 3-4 gate pressure, blink stalker all in. With the op build you are slightly ahead or slightly behind depending on the situation. Even so you don't get as much free wins the advantage is that you don't die to anything straight up. | ||
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webby01
Czech Republic22 Posts
 youll see more kind of it though, like 2 gas to fool oponent, or eco 4 gate  4G FOR GG ! 4G WILL PREVAIL ! User was warned for this post | ||
Teoita
Italy12248 Posts
Besides, it's not that 4gate is dead. Simply, people are figuring out how to be more and more greedy against it, which makes it far less effective overall. If you compare this build to, say, Geiko's old defensive 3gate, you get your tech going a full 40 seconds faster at minimum, which is a huge deal. That said yeah if you know you are playing someone who is really greedy, by all means 4gate the hell out of him. | ||
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Yushike
United States44 Posts
It says: 29 (2nd) Gateway 30 Sentry 32 (2nd) Gateway (Cut probes at 32 food) What's up with that? At first I thought it meant 3rd Gateway, but that doesn't make sense since it's before the Twilight Council gets built, so it wouldn't really be right. Is this an either/or situation or something? | ||
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