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Flonomenalz
Nigeria3519 Posts
The only way you can go muta against this is if you rush to burrow. He only has 1 orbital, so at most he'll have 1 scan to use, and if you burrow banes in two separate locations that can't be hit by one scan, you can either delay the push, or just kill all his marines. Then your 9-10 muta pop magic boxed can beat the Thors and whatever else with Queens/Lings/maybe drones. It's a really interesting all in, it's an interesting dynamic sniping queens instead of going for drones. | ||
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
On January 11 2012 03:59 Tunzi wrote: Tunzi's Guide to Countering Blazinghand's Thorship TvZ 1. Overlord scout 2. Make extra queens upon confirming 1 base terran 3. Make roaches for hellion based all in, or ling/bane for marine/scv based all in. This actually summarizes what all my opponents do against me. Everyone does an overlord scout, or a ling scout. My opponents may make mistakes, but they are in Master League, and you don't get into Master League as zerg without learning some basic scouting- Zerg is a reactive race. I build my barracks, factory, AND starport at the ramp, and they see that. They scout two gas. Sometimes they even scout the armory. Most of them make roaches and an extra queen, sometimes two. Some of them make a baneling nest as well, anticipating a fight against repairing scvs. Several of them make crawlers. I think the important thing to bear in mind here is that you need to know when to stop droning. If you've hit like 40 drones and the terran is 1-basing, it's okay to stop droning and just make units-- taking a quick third like normal is a bad idea. Droning harder than that is also a bad idea-- making as many units as possible off of like 40-45 drones is what you want to do, since any further income from more drones will be much worse than having a standing army. EDIT: In fact, in most of my allins, my thor harass itself deals minimal damage, and my opponent is ~20 food ahead of me when I knock on his front door. It's just that most of that is in drones ;_; | ||
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Flonomenalz
Nigeria3519 Posts
On January 11 2012 04:05 Blazinghand wrote: This actually summarizes what all my opponents do against me. Everyone does an overlord scout, or a ling scout. My opponents may make mistakes, but they are in Master League, and you don't get into Master League as zerg without learning some basic scouting- Zerg is a reactive race. I build my barracks, factory, AND starport at the ramp, and they see that. They scout two gas. Sometimes they even scout the armory. Most of them make roaches and an extra queen, sometimes two. Some of them make a baneling nest as well, anticipating a fight against repairing scvs. Several of them make crawlers. I think the important thing to bear in mind here is that you need to know when to stop droning. If you've hit like 40 drones and the terran is 1-basing, it's okay to stop droning and just make units-- taking a quick third like normal is a bad idea. Droning harder than that is also a bad idea-- making as many units as possible off of like 40-45 drones is what you want to do, since any further income from more drones will be much worse than having a standing army. EDIT: In fact, in most of my allins, my thor harass itself deals minimal damage, and my opponent is ~20 food ahead of me when I knock on his front door. It's just that most of that is in drones ;_; Actually, you can get into master league without scouting well. 98% of Zerg players up to low-mid masters just make units at random times and hope it works, especially in ZvZ/T. Like, the guys you were playing were trying to go Stephano style against Thors when they had ALREADY SEEN A THOR DROP. They are stuck on one minded builds, because a lot of Terrans in low masters actually don't know how to beat the turtle/fast hive/3/3 ultra/crackling/infestor style off of 3-4 base because you can get into masters without ever making a single ghost. | ||
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
On January 11 2012 04:17 Flonomenalz wrote: Actually, you can get into master league without scouting well. 98% of Zerg players up to low-mid masters just make units at random times and hope it works, especially in ZvZ/T. Like, the guys you were playing were trying to go Stephano style against Thors when they had ALREADY SEEN A THOR DROP. They are stuck on one minded builds, because a lot of Terrans in low masters actually don't know how to beat the turtle/fast hive/3/3 ultra/crackling/infestor style off of 3-4 base because you can get into masters without ever making a single ghost. *cough*ImighthavegottenintoMasterwithoutusingghosts*cough* I guess when it comes down to it, people have like straight-up 7-pooled into Master League so maybe I shouldn't get too impressed with my own skill level ;_; EDIT: I did use ghosts in TvP though. I just didn't use them in TvZ. I've only started doing so recently, and not on the ladder. | ||
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dmg7
101 Posts
...on the note of ghosts, masters and never built a ghost in tvz  does that mean I'm terrible? | ||
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lac29
United States1485 Posts
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statikg
Canada930 Posts
You didn't emphasis if you do this but I think it would be great to show your banshees as soon as possible to try to get the zerg to panic and build a ton of spores/queens that won't help him too much against your coming attack. Also since this is kind of the underlying theme of the build I think it would be really leet if after drones your 3rd priority target was actually larva rather then army. | ||
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secretary bird
447 Posts
Anyway the strategy looks interesting I've heard that thor banshee is a good 1 base build and this seems like a nice variation will try it sometime. | ||
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Yoshi Kirishima
United States10292 Posts
 Thanks for making! | ||
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Gelenn
United States87 Posts
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Tal0n
United States175 Posts
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theshrabster
United States19 Posts
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iAmJeffReY
United States4262 Posts
Good guide, although as some have said, I do question the responses from many of these zergs, and their scouting timing and patterns. I picked up a few replays from the season 5...and god I think you could've just SCV raven viking mass and win against them lol. Again though, the guide is very well done. Completely off topic, but still related, I do appreciate and actually read through every post I see you make in a thread I'm in. You rarely, if ever, disappoint. Also, by no means does this still NOT work. It reminds me of pookies pincer mojlner or whatever it was called. Thor and scv poke front with hellion marine drop in main. And random to whoever commented on masters TvZ without ghosts. I can beat some of the lower GM zergs with basic just marine tank medic, and not all inning. Ghosts just make the matchup feel so much less dependent on a great control move and tactical attack timings. I'm just recently cutting at 175 supply, and no matter where in the game, starting 2-3 ghost academies, their upgrades, and a nuke and getting maxed on ghosts. The issue is microing them is difficult for me. Infantry medics on 1, tanks on 2. Hard to use 3 for me >_< I like the part where you snipe the Queens it's a smart strategy. Limiting the Larvae many Terrans will avoid targeting Queens but it's really important to kill them its basically like killing a production building. (From below me) Really...? Most terrans won't go for queens first...? That's the first thing I'd think anyone would go for... | ||
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XRaDiiX
Canada1730 Posts
You can make a few spine crawlers too and/or spores because they usually make banshees always when they are doing this. Rule #1 when facing a 1-base Terran over-make units and never drone too much because once his one base -all-in fails the game is pretty much over because you can deny him expanding forever and even when he gets on two base; if his 1-base all-in does little damage you will be 3-4 base Zerg vs a 1-2base Terran and pretty much just roll -over him. 3-4 Queens some Roaches banelings/spines and spores is all you need to deal with most Terran 1-base cheese. That composition will even work well vs marauder hellion all-ins. | ||
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XRaDiiX
Canada1730 Posts
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Blezza
United Kingdom191 Posts
Normally i would be happy for new strats, but this is just depressing. I just hate gimmicky builds... | ||
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AmericanUmlaut
Germany2574 Posts
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dementrio
678 Posts
The reason #1 it works is map control. The zerg sees terran 1 basing and prepares (at the time 1basing terrans were really common, right now you might even get an advantage because it is not anymore); then holds the harass, and finds himself not knowing what to do because of absolutely no map vision. Of course you will find poor reactions in the replays, because those were blind reactions. Terran has every tech option available, and you don't even know if he has taken his natural. | ||
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dementrio
678 Posts
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=208960 I wonder if he is still around? | ||
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
On January 11 2012 04:40 lac29 wrote: I really appreciate extra section on micro ... I'm pretty clueless on how some players do certain moves. No problem! When I first started trying to thorship down in like plat league or whatever, I had no idea how to do any of the micro for picking up and dropping thors, and I lost many a game to thor mismicro, or, conversly, to my macro slipping during thor micro. if you can think of anything else I could add to that section, let me know-- I had to do some serious thinking to convert what was for me a mechanical/muscle memory knowledge into the written form, and I easily could have missed something. On January 11 2012 06:13 Blezza wrote: Yet another terran allin... Normally i would be happy for new strats, but this is just depressing. I just hate gimmicky builds...Technically this is a very, very old strat. I just added in the viking first and the banshee followup-- but the idea of "thorship" has been around since beta due to the way maps were laid out. But yeah this is admittedly a gimmick build. On January 11 2012 05:38 theshrabster wrote: I give this guide a 5/5 for structuring and clarity, easily the best guide I've read thus far. the only thing I would have added is putting in a few more pictures, showing ranges and good thor/medivac placement against queen positions, so you can easily demonstrate to people that you've accounted for things like multiple queens, and show them how to deal with them. This actually sounds like a good idea. when I get home I'll add some screenshots to the micro and decisionmaking sections as a visual aid for the actual "thorship harass" part of the build. EDIT: As a note, this is by no means an "unbeatable" build. Any zerg player who watches a few replays of this will know how to scout it and beat it. That's the reason I've written this guide. Hopefully, if nothing else, a certain percentage of trran players will learn about this build and execute it, or some zerg players will be like "oh, whose this ladder opponent, 'Blazinghand'? I remember he's that tool with the thor all-in" and either way I won't be able to win a lot with it anymore :D | ||
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