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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
![[image loading]](http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/images/c/c7/Ticon.png) Guide: Blazinghand's Thorship TvZ
For those special occasions in TvZ when you want to
get all up in his grill
Table of Contents
>Introduction
Background
General Theory I: Larvae Harassment
General Theory II: Distinctive Traits and Thor Preservation
>Build Order
>Execution
Phase 1: Viking
Phase 2: Thorship
Phase 3: All In
>Map-Specific Information and Vetoes
>Q&A
>Replays & VoDs
>Acknowledgements
Introduction [Top]
So, gentlemen, it's finally come to that point. I've decided to rid myself of this demon. At first it was nice, but after a long time, this build has begun to hold me back. I've decided that it's time to share it-- the secret behind my 85% TvZ win rate. Anyone who's watched my stream has seen me execute this build countless times, and effortlessly crush Zerg players who are substantially better than me. It is the Thorship into Thor all-in TvZ. It is a brutal 1 base all-in, and probably the most successful of its kind. It will only work once against a good player, and it requires a lot of apm. Properly executed without failures of drop micro or marine splitting, I have never lost with it. That being said, I'm bad and will occasionally derp up a split, but even so, it wins 85% of the time in low-mid Master League, according to sc2gears. This build does not function in high master league, as your typical skilled zerg opponent will react appropriately to a slow 1 base all-in. Do not use this build for high level play-- it relies on your opponent being bad (mid master or lower) for it to win.
This guide is long. It contains within it all my knowledge from the 100+ TvZ games I've played with this build, 96 of them in Master League. If you read this and understand it, and you have the mechanics, you will be able to execute the build as well as I can. You will achieve the winrate I have. You will become a god.
Without any further ado, I present Blazinghand's Thorship into Thor-allin TvZ.
Background [Top]
My Thorship build began, as so many builds, as an adaptation of something I saw a better player do. It must have been over a year ago that I was watching sPsDEBO's stream as he Thor dropped on maps like Blistering Sands, Lost Temple, pre-fix Delta Quadrant and Jungle Basin, making use of some unfortunate map topography to really abuse the mobility of the Medivac and the strength of the Thor. Although queens were appreciably faster off of creep, the Thorship was still pretty effective-- you could 1-shot drones and crap all over queens.
It's always been pretty easy to slip a Thorship harass in before lair tech, and assuming you microed carefully, you could preserve the Thor, deal some damage, cover for your expo, and on certain maps (DQ and LT) dance all over his head. Zerg players had to specifically make Spine Crawlers and float overlords to deal with the Thorship cliff drop threat. This was overall pretty bad.
With time, maps became more balanced, and Thorship became a riskier and smaller-windowed harass. You still needed to get out of there before lair tech, but with Zerg players getting 3rd (and in the case of Ice Fisher, 4th) queens quickly coupled with a sudden dearth of truly abusable cliffs, even flying near the Zerg base at all meant putting yourself in great danger.
I'd finally gotten enough effective APM (you need ~80) to perform Thorship harass, but the window in the Sc2 metagame in which Thorship was effective had closed. It's pretty obvious if you're Thorshipping; fast double gas, tech lab Factory with nothing researching, fast Medivac (even an armory if you can find that) all together mean it must be Thorship. Although there's a possibility in these scenarios of tank drop or red flame hellion drop, the response to any of these is to get an extra queen and some crawlers or roaches to kill the dropped unit.
I realized that Thorship would need to acquire a new flavor and set of goals to remain relevant in the new TvZ meta. Thorship traditionally targeted down stray lings, and drones in the mineral line. I had begun using a Thor/marine all-in against Zerg, and I realized that although it was unrealistic to deal severe income damage with Thorship, careful control might let me deal larvae damage.
Rarely would a Zerg player be able to hold the follow-up attack.
General Theory I: Larvae Harassment [Top]
A fundamental difference between Zerg and Terran (and there are many, no doubt) is that of production facilities. How many marines, marauders, tanks etc a Terran player can make is determined mostly by his production facilities. Except insofar as it affects his ability to afford SCVs, Terran can produce as much as he wants and still economically develop optimally. Expansion timing plays into this, as an earlier CC means you'll have less minerals to dump into, say, more Rax and marines, but note Zerg's choice is still harder than Terran's.
A rather obvious observation is that every larvae becomes either an Overlord, a Drone, or a combat unit. Which combat unit it becomes varies from Zerglings to expensive units like Ultralisks. Still, in the early game, the larva’s flexibility is sharply limited; before Lair tech, common Larvae uses are:
Drone: 50 Minerals
Drone -> Spine Crawler: 150 Minerals
Drone -> Spore Crawler: 125 Minerals
Zergling Pair: 50 Minerals
1 Baneling, 1 Zergling: 75 Minerals, 25 Gas
1 Roach: 75 Minerals, 25 Gas
Now granted, the Roach costs effectively 25 more minerals due to supply costs, and the Zergling Pair or 1 Bane 1 Zergling costs 12.5 more minerals due to supply costs, but we still note that units are resource-cheap and larvae-expensive, whereas statics are larvae-cheap but resource-expensive.
Ultimately, the flexibility and strength of Zerg comes from efficient and effective allocation of Larvae. Any harass seeks ultimately not to control the Zerg income economy, but rather, the Zerg Larva economy, since a Zerg can drone very quickly to replace his mineral line.
Example: You harass a Zerg player who has the optimal saturation of 22 drones on each base (16 minerals, 6 vespene) with some hellions. You kill a total of 8 drones, and bleed 3 hellions before you extract the last one, pulling it out and flying it away from his nasty roaches. You've traded 300 minerals of hellions for 400 minerals of drones. Not bad. The Zerg player's 2 larvae injects pop (or maybe just popped) and he either slaps down 8 drones to recover from the harassment, or, having scouted that you're all-inning him, slaps down a bunch of roaches or ling/bane instead of rebuilding his economy.
As you can see there is a certain amount of flexibility from the Zerg player, but it is a Sophie's Choice situation if his larvae are limited. Let's imagine another situation.
Example: You harass a Zerg player who has the optimal saturation of 22 drones on each base (16 minerals, 6 vespene) with 2 banshees. You kill a total of 6 drones and a queen, and lose 1 banshee on the way out. You've traded 150/100 for 450 minerals. Not bad. The Zerg player's 1 larvae inject pops (he only has 1 because he lost a queen) and he either slaps down 4 drones to partially recover from the harassment, or, having scouted that you're all-inning him, uses his larvae to make roaches or ling/bane instead of rebuilding his economy.
You can see that, deprived of larvae, the Zerg player is in a much tighter corner. It takes 17 seconds to make a round of drones, and so a Zerg player would gladly trade 100 minerals of drones for 100 minerals of hellions (plus 17 seconds mining time for 2 drones), since making economy and army are the same thing for him. He'd much rather trade Zerglings, but only because they'd trade more efficiently; a larva is a larva.
It's for this reason that any sort of larvae-based harass struggles against the influences of Spanishiwa's legendary Ice Fisher ZvX opening (http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=207017).
Spanishiwa is part of a small and elite group of people who wrote build orders on TL that demonstrated or revealed great insight into the game. For Spanishiwa, this meant realizing the chief limitation on Zerg production early on is larvae-- and that overcoming this meant using larvae-efficient crawlers and queens. For this reason, any sort of larvae-targeted harass (sniping queens, etc) is ineffective against Spanishiwa's build, and I'd consider his build to be build order win against any sort of Thor harass, simply due to the fact that killing queens with a Thor will not slow down his larva production, and his AA damage output will usually drop the Medivac
General Theory II: Distinctive Traits & Thor Preservation [Top]
When we talk about Thor harass and the "Thorship" concept, we must first begin by asking what it is that distinguishes a Thor harass from other forms of harass (eg. banshees, hellions, reaper). Chiefly, what distinguishes these harasses from each other are the level of commitment required, the transitions available, and the potential damage output. That is to say, what does it cost you, and what can it give you?
Well, one notable thing is that the Thorship requires you have a Starport. It will necessarily put on the pressure more slowly than, say, a hellion or reaper opening. However, with a sufficiently early second gas, the Thor and the Medivac can both be produced and moving across the map in a timely fashion, not later than a cloak banshee attack. In terms of timing, this is comparable to any sort of Starport-based 1 base harass play, be it vikings, drop rush, or cloak rush.
The other thing the Thorship requires you to do is, well, build a quick Thor. This large investiture of minerals and vespene gas delays any potential expansion a great deal, and represents a significant early-game investment into tech. The armory itself provides little value, basically adding to the cost of the Thor. Unlike reaper and hellion harasses, this sort of opening will necessarily delay any expansions significantly. Unlike 2 Rax, and drop rushes, this sort of opening also produces units that are not part of the standard TvZ composition, further hindering transitions into a standard midgame. Although a Thor is indeed a common element of a late Terran army, it is traditionally not incorporated into the marine/tank/Medivac composition unless there are a large number of Mutalisks being brought to bear.
We have therefore established that the Thorship is essentially the most costly harasses a Terran player can execute against a Zerg Although it's conceivable a Terran may rush for Battlecruiser and attempt to harass with that (a more costly harass, indeed), it would be enormously unlikely to succeed and profoundly unwise to attempt. Given these costs, we must certainly anticipate a strong benefit for such a build to be worthwhile.
The benefit of the Thor harass is twofold, and both are contingent on strength of the Thor. Whereas reapers, hellions, and banshees each suffer numerous drawbacks and counters from the hatch-tech Zerg's arsenal (speedlings, crawlers, roaches, and queens), the Thorship harass is largely immune to or able to circumvent traditional Zerg anti-harass tools. The first of these tools is the noble crawler. Spine Crawlers are effective against marines and hellions, and due to the fact that these harasses attack by ground, there is little else to say about it-- spine crawlers are good. Banshees, Reapers, and Thorship all posses to tools needed to mitigate crawlers and simcities. Although spore crawlers are nominally able to beat Banshees, banshees are mobile and choose not to engage them. Thors don't care about crawlers and can beat them in direct fights relatively easily. The next tool is the Queen. Thors crap all over queens. The final tools, which I will lump together in the case of the Thor, are lings and roaches. A good number of lings and roaches can take down an unsupported Thor with minimal losses. However, no number of lings and roaches can take down a Medivac, and that is where the Thorship shines-- there is no set of Zerg defenses against which a Thorship cannot deal some damage. It is only against a large number of queens (3 with quick reactions and connected creep) on conjunction with a strong land army that the Thorship is forced to back off without engaging inside the Zerg base-- the mobile AA of the queens prevents the sort of drop micro necessary to mitigate the ground damage output of lings and roaches. The Thor drop is, therefore, capable of enormous damage output even against a relatively prepared opponent.
The other benefit of a Thor drop rush is that it provides you with a Thor. Assuming your micro is careful, there's no reason you should lose the Thor in the Thor drop build. Zerg will not have mutalisks or fungal, and with the mobility of the Medivac and the quick loading and unloading of the Thor, you will be able to disengage at will. Although an early-game Thor is of sharply limited use in regular situations, it's still a valuable tool fighting against roaches and banelings in the event of an early attack from either player following the harassment. Whereas reapers, banshees, and hellions all are not represented in standard TvZ (though hellions have a place in Mech), the Thor, if preserved, can eventually become a seamless part of a standard army, and is an invaluable asset in all-in situations.
The Thorship is thus distinguished from other harasses. It is costly in the extreme, but is capable of overwhelming common defenses and if handled properly provides you a powerful unit during early all-in situations and standard unit later on. Due to the high cost of this harass, however, the follow-up is most effective as an all-in as opposed to an expansion. Taking two gasses, making a Starport, an armory, and a Thor, all before expanding, will obviate the ability of the Terran to enter into a macro game in a reasonable fashion. The high early-game effectiveness of the Thor, however, will make him strong.
The Build Order [Top]
10 Supply Depot
12 Barracks
13 Refinery
17 Orbital Command (16 food of scvs)
17 Supply depot
at this point you should be walled in. from this point forwards, don't build anything else at your wall unless you anticipate baneling aggression.
18 Factory (can be 19 or 17 depending on losing scouting scv, how well you xferred workers to geyser)
20 Refinery
22 Supply Depot
23 Starport (basically whenever your Factory finishes)
At this point you have 4 marines. Unless you scouted an all-in from the Zerg, you now cut marines to afford your viking, thor, and medivac.
25 Armory
Use your first 100 gas after beginning Starport. hide this, it's the biggest tell of a thor drop. I patrol my marines to keep an eye open for scoutverlords.
26 Supply depot
~26 Viking when Starport completes
~30 Thor when Armory completes
~38 Medivac when you can afford it.
Start producing marines again. Constantly produce Thors out of your Factory. When the Medivac finishes, add a tech lab to the Starport and constantly produce banshees. Add 2 more barracks as you bank up minerals and constantly produce marines.
Your thor should pop at about 7:20, with your medivac popping a few seconds later.
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/NsvC7l.jpg)
Execution [Top]
The execution of this build is broken into three portions. First, you begin by harassing with your viking-- you clear away overlords, stray zerglings, and try to make the zerg player very sad. Secondly, you execute the thorship harass itself-- killing queens, drones, whatever you can afford to. Lastly, you all-in with your thor-based army, and hopefully crush the puny zerg beneath your heel. I'm now going to describe how exactly you should go about doing this.
Phase 1: Viking Harass [Top]
So let's talk for a moment about decision-making. The goals of your viking harassment, in order of importance, are:
A) Clear an Overlord- and Zergling- free path for the thorship to travel
B) Kill Overlords
C) Be a dick
So here's how the average zerg player responds to the viking poking around-- he retracts his overlords, makes an extra queen (if he's not supply blocked), and sometimes makes a spore crawler if he's anticipating banshees. He pulls his overlords back from the map, abdicating the ability to see the thorship coming.
Your viking has enough time to make a couple of diversions to kill lone lings or ovies, but then will have to fly the flight path your thorship will take, to clear out any ovies in that area so that you can get into his base without him knowing.
You will almost always get 1 overlord kill this way, but on some maps you can get upwards of 3.
VoD of Viking Harass: http://www.twitch.tv/blazinghand/b/305024074
Phase 2: Thorship [Top]
This is the fun part. This is why you're here. A little after your viking pops, your thor does, then your medivac pops a few seconds later. Load the thor into the medivac and fly along the route your viking has cleared. Your goal is to not let the zerg see your thorship until you are basically in his base. Remember that the thor is visible beneath the medivac, so he will know exactly what's coming if he sees it.
Phase 2 Subsection 1: Target Priority and Thor AI
The targets for your thor, in order of importance, are
A) Queens
B) Drones
C) Army
E) Overlords
Your thor's target priority AI works like this:
A) Enemy ground units attacking the thor within 7 range.
B) Overlords, any overlords, anywhere within like a screen length.
C) Stuff you actually want to kill.
Phase 2 Subsection 2: Decisionmaking
As you enter the enemy base you need to quickly determine how many roaches he has nearby, and the presence/absence of spine crawlers, queens, and speedlings. Your goal is to drop your thor basically on top of his Queen, then focus it down. Putting the thor in melee with the queen will reduce the surface area for lings. However, avoid entering the AA envelope of a spore crawler or several queens, as you will be unable to fly in and pick up your Thor. The only time it is ok to do so is if his ground forces are weak enough the Thor can fight its way to the edge of the AA envelope for extraction, or kill the AA units itself.
One trick to attack an overlord with a viking to pull the queens off creep to get killed. Remember, the Thor will gladly disengage from major ground battles to fire at overlords within 10 range, putting its attack on cooldown for several crucial seconds. Also, a thor near a mineral line and an overlord will spend several years killing the overlord unless you manually tell him to kill drones. You can also sometimes find lone queens at the edge of the creep planting tumors. Remember, engage only when you're sure you can win.
It's okay to drop the thor into zerglings to snipe a queen, and if you can drop him in melee with the queen or up against a hatchery (or both), you can vastly reduce the damage he takes from the lings. It's less okay to drop a thor into roaches or roach/ling, but if it's a small number of roaches, the thor can afford to tank it to kill the queen.
Your medivac should under no circumstances be shot by a spore crawler. Any situation where you're thinking about flying into the AA envelope of a spore crawler, ask yourself if it's really worth losing your medivac, because spore crawlers hit like trucks. I can count on my two hands the number of times I've flown into a spore crawler's AA envelope when thorshipping. I can count on my right hand the number of times it turned out to actually be a good idea in my hundred games.
Never fly near 3 queens. Be careful flying up to 2 queens-- don't drop the thor in melee, your Medivac will take too much damage going in and out. Flying up to 1 queen is acceptable.
If you fly into a base and see 3 queens and connected creep, probe for areas where his queens can't reach easily and you can shoot the mineral line, buildings, etc. If there's no opportunities, just bail. The chief goal of Thorship is to preserve the Thor and the medivac during the thor drop. If your opponent has like 4 queens and a pile of roaches, that's damage done already to his economy. Bail.
Always clear Xel'Naga Towers on your way home. If your thor and medivac are relatively high-health, have them camp there and keep them cleared, or rove around denying creep tumors.
Phase 2 Subsection 3: Micro
How to unload a Thor
Setup: Medivac is in motion, and you have it selected. A Thor is loaded inside.
1) Right-click to move the Medivac PAST the target landing zone.
2) As the Medivac flies the landing zone, click on the wireframe of the Thor to unload it.
3) Right-click to turn the Medivac around and send it to safety without losing momentum. During this time, the thor is going through it's abominably slow “unload” animation.
4) Select the Thor and order it to attack the target.
How to pick up a Thor
Setup: Medivac is in motion, and your Thor is on the ground.
1) Right-click to move the Medivac PAST the target loading zone.
2) [2 methods]
A) Just as the Thor is about to be under the medivac, select the thor and right-click the medivac. The medivac will not change course or lose acceleration and will continue on its original course, giving you plenty of time to alter the course without losing momentum.
B) Just as the Thor is about to be under the Medivac, select the medivac and right-click the thor. The Medivac will immediately start deceleration, so you must proceed to step 3 ASAP.
3) Right-click to turn the Medivac around and send it to safety without losing momentum.
What to do with your Medivac
While your thor is on the ground, your medivac should constantly be in motion at full speed near the Thor. Ideally, out of range of any queens, or constantly turning just above the thor if there are no queens about, for maximim speed extraction.
What to do with your Viking
If your viking took significant damage during the initial harass phase, look for easy overlords or scout around the map for unprotected overlords. If your viking took little damage, or his queens are all dead, kill overlords in his base.
Extracting Surrounded Thors from inside AA Envelopes
This is only to be used in the direst of circumstances-- if, for example, your opponent surprises you after your Thor is on the ground with several queens or mobile spore crawlers, grounding it, and also surrounds it with enough lings that an escape by walking out of the AA envelope is unlikely. If your Thor can't kill his AA, is trapped, and your Medivac won't survive an extraction, the final act of desperation is to extract anyways, but lead with the viking to tank the queen and spore crawlers shots on the way in.
Against a slow opponent you can lead a fair amount with the viking, but a canny adversary will focus down the medivac.IT may make all the difference though to have the viking tank a few shots.
When the Medivac is over the thor, pick it up and get out of there as soon as you can. Your viking will die. I have tried this 3-4 times and it has never really worked, but it COULD.
What to do if he rushed mutalisk really really hard.
If your opponent has mutalisks before 8:30 (which is possible, mind you), you probably should have been able to scout the lair with your scv scout. In the event you are being chased by a small pack of mutas, pick up your thor. Every 3 in-game seconds, drop the thor to fire its rockets. Keep on doing this until you're outside the zerg base and only have to worry about the mutalisks. Fly the Medivac far enough away it won't get splashed by glaives, and hurt the mutalisks until the thor is at about 1/3rd hp. Then pick it up while its shots are on cooldown to give it a little extra tanking in the form of the Medivac's hull. If you can fend off the mutalisks you can make it home and win with the marine/thor all-in-- he won't have roaches or banelings.
Phase 3: All In [Top]
This is the easy part. When your first banshee pops, send it to clear out the xel naga towers (if your thorship isn't doing so already). When your 3rd thor pops, grab your thors, all your air units, all your marines, and 10-15 auto-repairing scvs, and move out. You will have a scanner sweep come up as you arrive at the zerg player's natural.
Your goal is to destroy his army, crush his spirit, and devour his soul with your unstoppable allin. Thors tank and get repaired, and destroy high-hp units with their ranged shots. Marines provide filler dps. Banshees target down high priority units and provide damage against roaches. Scvs repair, and coupled with the medivac forces the zerg to engage you basically all in one go, or else you'll heal up in between fights. Your viking here will be important for picking off overlords, providing a little range and "finishing power" (after 2 thor shots, to avoid overkilling) on mutas.
Even if zerg has a natural expansion, unless it's directly along your attack route, go for his natural then head into his main.
Zerg has a small number of options for defense at this point in the game. Here are the defenses I've seen:
Countering Zerg Defenses to the Thor All-in
Lair/Mutalisk Rush:
Mutalisk Rush off 2 base is build order loss. Even with perfect baneling hits, you can't stop 3 thors from crushing the ~5 magic-boxed mutalisks a zerg will have at this time. He simply won't have the roaches and banes to pose a credible threat:
http://www.twitch.tv/blazinghand/b/305031558
Ling/Bane Defense
This defense forgoes roaches for ling/bane, and is one of the deadliest ways a zerg can defend the all-in. You need to split well, and not lose too many marines. Ideally you want to keep all your scvs alive to repair your units after the fight. His goal is to clear out your light units the clean up your thors with lings or his second wave.
1) split
2) focus fire units onto banelings
3) in the final defense of your vital repairing scvs, jump them into your medivac just at the moment of impact
4) use drop micro and repair micro to clean up afterwards
How to micro shittily and win: http://www.twitch.tv/blazinghand/b/305032013
How to micro well and win: http://www.twitch.tv/blazinghand/b/305032650
Roach or Ling/Roach Defense:
This is the most common kind of defense. Usually supplemented with a few extra queens. The zerg player, knowing you are making thors, makes roaches. The important elements of micro in these engagement are repair micro, pulling back targetted marines, and pulling back focused-down thors using your medivac. Gradually cycle your way backwards, picking up weak thors and pulling them a few squares back to be safely healed while continuing to fight. This drop micro vastly increases the damage output of your thors and their overall survivability. It also looks sweet and demoralizes your opponent.
Drop Micro In Action: http://www.twitch.tv/blazinghand/b/305026328
Hybrid (Roach/Bane) Defense:
This is the most technical defense. It combines the ability fight thors of a Roach defense with the ability to clear out scvs of a ling/bane defense. It's also the most gas-intensive, and it's what a smart Zerg will do if he realizes ano all-in of this kind is coming. You need to split, and you also need to drop micro, and you also need to repair micro and pull scvs into medivacs as necessary. This is the only kind of defense that has ever successfully defended a Thor all-in in which I didn't derp the thor harass. It's what a zerg player uses if you play him twice in a row with this build.
It is the best defense. To fight this, you have to use every trick in the book. He will have the burst damage of banelings plus the staying power of roaches. There will be queens. Brace yourself. Split your marines, pull back your scvs, and do your best to weather the baneling storm. If there are too many banelings, save 8 scvs in the medivac, then drop them back down to repair the thors in the ensuing fight with the roaches. Afterwards, focus on drop micro the save your thors. Remember that thors 3-shot roaches, so 3 thors, properly coordinated, will 1-shot a roach so he can't micro it back.
Roach/Bane Defense: http://www.twitch.tv/blazinghand/b/305030217
Clip: Thorship vs Roach/Bane
+ Show Spoiler +
Following this execution, the thor allin should crumble the zergs before you, and the ground shall be stained with their tiny, tiny zerg tears.
Map-specific Information and Vetoes [Top]
An illustrated guide to the S7 Map Pool!
Daybreak
+ Show Spoiler +![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/D67tV.png) Red boxes represent typical Overlord areas. Green lines represent Thorship routes.
Pros: Some Airspace, Ramped Main, Forward Main Ramp
Cons: Ramped Natural, Choked Natural
Verdict: No Veto
Cloud Kingdom
+ Show Spoiler +![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/jb0JH.jpg) Red boxes represent typical Overlord areas. Green lines represent Thorship routes.
Pros: Large Main, Ramped Main
Cons: Ramped Natural, Choked Natural, Recessed Main Ramp
Verdict: Veto
Korhal Compound
+ Show Spoiler +![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/ZWOdn.png) Red boxes represent typical Overlord areas. Green lines represent Thorship routes.
Pros: Some Airspace, Large Main, Ramped Main, Unramped Natural, Short Rush Distance
Cons: Recessed Main Ramp
Verdict: No Veto
Ohana
+ Show Spoiler +![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/vvIyd.jpg) Red boxes represent typical Overlord areas. Green lines represent Thorship routes.
Pros: Large Main, Ramped Main
Cons: Minimal Airspace, Ramped Natural, Recessed Main Ramp
Verdict: Veto
Entombed Valley
+ Show Spoiler +![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/ASaqw.png) Red boxes represent typical Overlord areas. Green lines represent Thorship routes.
Pros: Some Airspace, Ramped Main, Forward Main Ramp
Cons: Ramped Natural, Long Rush Distance, Long Drop Distance
Verdict: Veto
Antiga Shipyard
+ Show Spoiler +![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/exgUg.png) Red boxes represent typical Overlord areas. Green lines represent Thorship routes.
Pros: Large Main, Ramped Main, Wide Natural, Close Air Spawns
Cons: Recessed Main Ramp, Ramped Natural, Cross Spawns
Verdict: Preference
Metalopolis
+ Show Spoiler +![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/kttyj.jpg) Red boxes represent typical Overlord areas. Green lines represent Thorship routes.
Pros: Massive Airspace, Large Main, Ramped Main, Unramped Natural, Wide Natural, Short Rush Distance, Close Air Spawns
Cons: Thorship Too Stronk
Verdict: No Veto
Metropolis
+ Show Spoiler +![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/1bSPS.png) Red boxes represent typical Overlord areas. Green lines represent Thorship routes.
Pros: Good Airspace, Ramped Main, Unramped Natural, Close Air Spawns
Cons: Recessed Main Ramp, Choked Natural
Verdict: No Veto
Shakuras Plateau
+ Show Spoiler +![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/ecX3J.jpg) Red boxes represent typical Overlord areas. Green lines represent Thorship routes.
Pros: Some Airspace, Large Main, Ramped Main, Close Air Spawns
Cons: Recessed Main Ramp, Ramped Natural, Choked Natural
Verdict: Preference
Tal'Darim Altar
+ Show Spoiler +![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/IMLcI.png) Red boxes represent typical Overlord areas. Green lines represent Thorship routes.
Pros: Some Airspace, Large Mai
Cons: Ramped Natural, Choked Natural, Unramped Main, Massive Rush Distance
Verdict: Veto
Questions and Answers [Top]
Q: Why did you write this guide? Won't people figure out how to counter this and you'll lose your 85% winrate in TvZ?
A: That's exactly the point. This build has been holding me back. Due to my TvZ, my MMR is too high-- I can't find TvT or TvP matches at my level, so I lose 30% of my TvT and 40% of my TvP. Furthermore, my ability to play standard in TvZ has become incredibly bad. This build has been poison for me. I made a pact with the devil when I made this build-- it brought me MMR and promotions and opponents of skill beyond measure, but I paid a dear price for it. I have become it. I am the gimmick. This is the only way I can free myself, the only way to absolve my skills. Come, friend, and learn this build. Use it. Let people learn how to fight it. Partake from it, that I may become free of it.
Q: How long is this guide?
A: This guide is 5000 words, 7000 with Q&A.
Q: Blazinghand how did you come to be so sexy?
A: It's not easy, my friend. I go to the gym several times a week, and sometimes I even jog and stuff. Maybe someday you could be as sexy as me, or if you really try, as sexy as iNcontrol. He gets all the hot babes. The man has trouble moving through crowded areas because chicks are trying to get all up on him. I heard this on the internet so it must be true.
Q: On January 10 2012 19:43 peppilepew wrote:
im just wondering blaze , wat time does your thor land at? most zergs make a big round of lings at roughly6.30 7.00 mins, (wen playing ling festor atleast) is it before that or? if not i dont understand how this does alot of dmg A: Thor leaves base at 7:20. No number of lings (no matter how numerous!) can actually save a queen. If you drop a thor into melee with a queen, you can get off the 4 shots to kill it before it can escape or the lings can kill it, even if the lings are right there. You use drop micro the preserve the thor and pick your engagement. I've never flown into a zerg base and not encountered extreme resistance-- the medivac gives you the micro flexibility to overcome that resistance or circumvent it.
Here's an example of why a bunch of lings can't save an otherwise-unsupported queen from a thorship: http://www.twitch.tv/blazinghand/b/305031558?t=90
Q:On February 12 2012 03:29 Brutaxilos wrote:
Hi, great thread got a quick question though. I am a high gold random player facing mid to high platinums 90% of the time. TvZ is my absolute worst matchup. Would my opponents be skilled enough that I can use this on? Also, when you extract your thor is it better to go back to your base for repair or attack another area? Thanks. A: If you're trying to get better at TvZ, This build will NOT help you. It is an all-in that uses micro that's unrelated to standard play, and the only macro that happens is one base. If you want to improve your TvZ as your weakest matchup, I'd recommend learning a  Reactor Hellion Expand or some other standard play.
Q:On February 12 2012 00:37 TangSC wrote:
Cool build, I may try this - although I feel like you're taking a big risk in hoping your zerg opponent doesn't attack. There's no way you can really scout with this build, so if Zerg opens hatch first into an eco-baneling bust, roach/ling, or even roach/ling/baneling I don't see much defensive potential. On February 12 2012 02:41 iAmJeffReY wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2012 21:32 Blazinghand wrote:OK guys, we get a fresh new batch of replays. As I scramble and try to clear my bonus pool for this season, I find myself all-inning in some of my TvZs... and for me that means thorship. http://drop.sc/packs/524Several gems for you connoisseurs this time around. In the replay against Marine (Z): He rushes for Infestor off 2 base and gets brutalized. The BM that began at the opening of the game only ramps up as he realizes his sad, doomed fate. It's hard to say what motivated his BM, but was strong indeed. He felt like the game was unfair, which, well, it is, if you rush lair. I particularly enjoyed this one. In the replay against Marineforger (Z): He goes for a 2 base roach bust, a profoundly unwise choice against a 1-basing terran. I bleed a few depots and some marines, and the thorship is able to terrorize his mineral line and queens unmolested. The followup all-in is basically a formality. As a fellow all-inner, he sends me a respectful "gg" before tapping out. Somehow, I think we understood each other. In the replay against lunar (Z): He goes for a 28-drone baneling bust with 8 banelings, 24 zerglings. He busts the wall but can't overwhelm thor #2. He loses a creep queen and a couple overlords. He rushes for lair afterwards. Realizing too late his folly, he begins a lair and powers up to 44 drones in an attempt to mass roaches. As a fellow all-inner, he "ggs" before leaving. I think we knew eachother well this game as well. In the replay against MohuRaN (Z): This is really the crowing achievement of my night. This guy held the all-in with a muta rush (lost all the mutas, but held it). So I made three more thors and allinned again ^^ and it worked. I can only imagine the horror when he realized the same all-in was coming and he didn't have any banelings this time around ^^ I even cut the VoD from my stream just so you can witness the miracle firsthand if you'd like: Twitch.tv: http://www.twitch.tv/blazinghand/b/308215602Embedded video (youtube): + Show Spoiler +Sometimes, when playing standard, I almost forget the pure joy that is utilizing this micro-heavy idiosyncratic all-in. Wtf up with that depot placement in that vod? And 2nd off, I think tang has a point. How do you scout a econ bust, or roach ling, or roach ling bane rushes? I feel you have no map control until that single viking comes out to clear the way for the thor. A: This is a good question! Thanks for asking. If you take a look at my most recent replay pack, two of the zergs all-in me-- one with banelings and one with roaches. If you look through the lifetime replay pack there are countless replays of zergs trying to all-in with some mixture of roaches, lings, and banes, and you can see how I deal with it. Unfortunately, a lot of how I deal with all-ins and the like is situational depending on how many depots etc he kills (and he WILL kill some depots) but I'll do my best to explain in detail what I do to fight these all-ins. In general, though, once you have a Thor out you're bulletproof, and if you're worried you just wall super hard. I'm talking every prod fac, every depot at the top of your ramp.
My scv scout's goal is to see his hatchery and gas timing. If I scout a 1-basing zerg, well, I just read the "Terran handbook" and make a bunker since he's also 1-basing. This is pretty rare. If he goes hatch-first and doesn't take any gasses before my scv is dead, any aggression will be so late I'll be able to defend it. If I scout a hatch-first that has a gas, I assume he's gonna have some sort of garbage coming so I wall the top of my ramp with every building but the armory.
This almost always buys enough time to get a thor and a dropship out, and then I just micro my way to victory. The wall won't stop the all-in, but it'll buy time. Expensive time, but valuable time:
+ Show Spoiler [The Great Wall] +
In terms of map control against the zerg, your viking is only popping out like 45 seconds later than the first two hellions of a reactor hellion expand, and it's SO ANNOYING for the zerg player :D You are admittedly working with less map control than a reactor hellion expand, but somewhat more than a 1 rax reaper expand or 1 rax FE. In any case, your initial "getting up in his grill" should get started between 6:10 an 6:20 depending on where he's hiding his scouting overlord and/or whether or not he already tried to sacrifice it.
+ Show Spoiler [Ready to Plunder] +
In any case, against eco busts with like 30 drones (as opposed to all-in busts with fewer) you will always have your thor out in time to defend, and there's no bust that's good against a well-microed thorship.
+ Show Spoiler [Thor Timing and Roach Timing] +
In any case, I'd characterize this build as entirely safe against all-ins, or as safe as a terran build CAN be without blindly making bunkers.
Replays and VoDs [Top]
Replay Pack (Season 5)
This Replay Pack contains my Season 5 TvZ Thorship replays. They are all victories.
http://drop.sc/packs/424
Replay Pack (Lifetime Master League)
This Replay Pack contains every ladder TvZ Thorship I've ever done. Of the 96 games, 84 of them are wins. 3 of the losses are against opponents I was matched up against twice on the ladder. Several of the victories are the same way
http://drop.sc/packs/423
Replay Pack (Season 5 Twilight)
OK guys, we get a fresh new batch of replays. As I scramble and try to clear my bonus pool for this season, I find myself all-inning in some of my TvZs... and for me that means thorship.
http://drop.sc/packs/524
+ Show Spoiler +Several gems for you connoisseurs this time around. In the replay against Marine (Z): He rushes for Infestor off 2 base and gets brutalized. The BM that began at the opening of the game only ramps up as he realizes his sad, doomed fate. It's hard to say what motivated his BM, but was strong indeed. He felt like the game was unfair, which, well, it is, if you rush lair. I particularly enjoyed this one. In the replay against Marineforger (Z): He goes for a 2 base roach bust, a profoundly unwise choice against a 1-basing terran. I bleed a few depots and some marines, and the thorship is able to terrorize his mineral line and queens unmolested. The followup all-in is basically a formality. As a fellow all-inner, he sends me a respectful "gg" before tapping out. Somehow, I think we understood each other. In the replay against lunar (Z): He goes for a 28-drone baneling bust with 8 banelings, 24 zerglings. He busts the wall but can't overwhelm thor #2. He loses a creep queen and a couple overlords. He rushes for lair afterwards. Realizing too late his folly, he begins a lair and powers up to 44 drones in an attempt to mass roaches. As a fellow all-inner, he "ggs" before leaving. I think we knew eachother well this game as well. In the replay against MohuRaN (Z): This is really the crowing achievement of my night. This guy held the all-in with a muta rush (lost all the mutas, but held it). So I made three more thors and allinned again ^^ and it worked. I can only imagine the horror when he realized the same all-in was coming and he didn't have any banelings this time around ^^ I even cut the VoD from my stream just so you can witness the miracle firsthand if you'd like: Twitch.tv: http://www.twitch.tv/blazinghand/b/308215602Embedded video (youtube): + Show Spoiler +http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WFr8RGW5sh8 Sometimes, when playing standard, I almost forget the pure joy that is utilizing this micro-heavy idiosyncratic all-in.
VoD
This VoD is for those of you who can't download the Replays.
Twitch.TV high quality VoD: http://www.twitch.tv/blazinghand/b/305082290
Embedded Youtube Harass -> All In VoD: + Show Spoiler +http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WFr8RGW5sh8
A Typical Thorship:
+ Show Spoiler +
Thorship vs Roach/Ling:
+ Show Spoiler +
Acknowledgements [Top]
I'd like to thank Debo for helping inspire this build, and being a hilarious streamer in general. Thanks to all the extremely sad zerg players who died horribly to this build and feeding me their ladder points. Thanks to my stream viewers, and docthemedic in particular, for encouraging me to write this guide. I'd also like to thank wo1fwood for his article on TL BBCode (link)-- his knowledge helped me format this post.
Hope you enjoy the build!
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Interesting... Perhaps a link to your stream with times where you have used this? I can't DL on this comp as it is not mine. =(
Seems like another hair-pulling Terran build I will have to deal with heh. Thanks asshat! xD
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Great guide, Blazinghand! I've always been looking for a good all in to do against zerg and this one seems really viable :D
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
Unfortunately, I do this in laddering sessions which are buried in my entirely unorganized VoDs. If people are interested I could stream a replay, but there are a couple replay packs up there if you want to look for yourself.
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im just wondering blaze , wat time does your thor land at? most zergs make a big round of lings at roughly6.30 7.00 mins, (wen playing ling festor atleast) is it before that or? if not i dont understand how this does alot of dmg
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
On January 10 2012 19:43 peppilepew wrote:
im just wondering blaze , wat time does your thor land at? most zergs make a big round of lings at roughly6.30 7.00 mins, (wen playing ling festor atleast) is it before that or? if not i dont understand how this does alot of dmg
Thor leaves base at 7:20. No number of lings (no matter how numerous!) can actually save a queen. If you drop a thor into melee with a queen, you can get off the 4 shots to kill it before it can escape or the lings can kill it, even if the lings are right there. You use drop micro the preserve the thor and pick your engagement. I've never flown into a zerg base and not encountered extreme resistance-- the medivac gives you the micro flexibility to overcome that resistance or circumvent it.
Here's an example of why a bunch of lings can't save an otherwise-unsupported queen from a thorship: http://www.twitch.tv/blazinghand/b/305031558?t=90
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Looks sweet as. Can't wait to try it out.
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I think im going to hate u for this  . nice guide.
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is this not just Thor rush drop that everyone used to do on maps with high ground above the natural expo? i do really like the replays thank you.
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I actually think i faced you or someone doing this build on Ladder.
I crushed them (Masters League) and ended up 4 base Zerg vs his 1 base Terran because he couldn't expand after my roach baneling queen held off his scouted Thor/scv/banshee/marine Cheese.
He kept picking up the Thor and flying it back to his base to Repair when it got low. But he lost way too many SCV's failing like a scrub.
I held it off and laughed at him while i expanded and had 4-bases to his one base!
User was warned for clearly not reading the Strategy Forum Guidelines
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On January 10 2012 19:45 Blazinghand wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2012 19:43 peppilepew wrote:
im just wondering blaze , wat time does your thor land at? most zergs make a big round of lings at roughly6.30 7.00 mins, (wen playing ling festor atleast) is it before that or? if not i dont understand how this does alot of dmg Thor leaves base at 7:20. No number of lings (no matter how numerous!) can actually save a queen. If you drop a thor into melee with a queen, you can get off the 4 shots to kill it before it can escape or the lings can kill it, even if the lings are right there. You use drop micro the preserve the thor and pick your engagement. I've never flown into a zerg base and not encountered extreme resistance-- the medivac gives you the micro flexibility to overcome that resistance or circumvent it. Here's an example of why a bunch of lings can't save an otherwise-unsupported queen from a thorship: http://www.twitch.tv/blazinghand/b/305031558?t=90
ah i see, was curious how u would deal with that^^
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All I can say is that these Zergs don't even deserve to be in Masters. I've watched every replay in Season 5. First of all, none of them sac OLs. You need to be sending in 2 OLs from 2 positions against 1 base Terran. 3 marines won't prevent him from at least seeing the early Starport, or the armory. Once your Viking pops, and you start clearing OLs, that is a telltale sign a drop is coming. You should have 3 queens, so they should instantly inject, then run up to where the drop should be coming from, and making around 10 lings to fight ground army drop. Once they see a Thor drop, and still no expo, Thor all in is obvious. The guy on ST should have held it, but he engaged terribly. He made way too many banelings, and didn't use a surrounding flank. You only need around 8-10 banes, and the rest ling roach.
None of the Zergs you played ever even reached optimal saturation of 44 drones in 10 minutes, even the ones that took little damage from the Thor harass.
This makes me wonder how I'm stuck in diamond...
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Cool guide. Although I disagree about the muta rush, seeing as my staple build now is a form of "muta rush." We should test it. 
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
On January 10 2012 20:29 XRaDiiX wrote:
I actually think i faced you or someone doing this build on Ladder.
I crushed them (Masters League) and ended up 4 base Zerg vs his 1 base Terran because he couldn't expand after my roach baneling queen held off his scouted Thor/scv/banshee/marine Cheese.
He kept picking up the Thor and flying it back to his base to Repair when it got low. But he lost way too many SCV's failing like a scrub.
I held it off and laughed at him while i expanded and had 4-bases to his one base!
._. why did you come into this thread?
BTW the following players are "players who have won against my thorship on the ladder"
+ Show Spoiler +Keyz (the 2nd time I played him)
PoorPotato
RiskyVice
DodSnO
Laguna
Kaiser (the 2nd time played him)
Word
알바
Taijie
Tehbatz
Michael
On January 10 2012 22:06 Sated wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2012 20:29 XRaDiiX wrote:
I actually think i faced you or someone doing this build on Ladder.
I crushed them (Masters League) and ended up 4 base Zerg vs his 1 base Terran because he couldn't expand after my roach baneling queen held off his scouted Thor/scv/banshee/marine Cheese.
He kept picking up the Thor and flying it back to his base to Repair when it got low. But he lost way too many SCV's failing like a scrub.
I held it off and laughed at him while i expanded and had 4-bases to his one base! Stay classy... Probably a good thing for you to get this guide out now and focus on more "solid" play - Thor-builds are gonna be pretty useless once HotS comes out Awesome guide, though, one of the best written on the site, me thinks.
Yeah something tells me it will be hard to fit a fusion core in >.>
On January 11 2012 01:15 Flonomenalz wrote:
All I can say is that these Zergs don't even deserve to be in Masters. I've watched every replay in Season 5. First of all, none of them sac OLs. You need to be sending in 2 OLs from 2 positions against 1 base Terran. 3 marines won't prevent him from at least seeing the early Starport, or the armory. Once your Viking pops, and you start clearing OLs, that is a telltale sign a drop is coming. You should have 3 queens, so they should instantly inject, then run up to where the drop should be coming from, and making around 10 lings to fight ground army drop. Once they see a Thor drop, and still no expo, Thor all in is obvious. The guy on ST should have held it, but he engaged terribly. He made way too many banelings, and didn't use a surrounding flank. You only need around 8-10 banes, and the rest ling roach.
None of the Zergs you played ever even reached optimal saturation of 44 drones in 10 minutes, even the ones that took little damage from the Thor harass.
This makes me wonder how I'm stuck in diamond...
;_; it's an ugly world my friend
Actually the zergs that bother me more (in terms of decision-making) are the ones that take a 3rd base and try to drone THAT up vs a 1-basing terran. I really don't understand why they do that, and they always lose.
On January 11 2012 01:57 Aletheia27 wrote:Cool guide. Although I disagree about the muta rush, seeing as my staple build now is a form of "muta rush." We should test it.
Muta rush against marine/thor? Not gonna work.
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Nice Strat ! i´ve got to try it out ! thank you !
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Well written and entertaining :D
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
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Tunzi's Guide to Countering Blazinghand's Thorship TvZ
1. Overlord scout
2. Make extra queens upon confirming 1 base terran
3. Make roaches for hellion based all in, or ling/bane for marine/scv based all in.
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Btw, you can't rush Muta against this. It's not possible. Even with magic box, there are marines. You would have to have 20 mutas in 12 minutes (lolwut), I don't think that's possible?
The only way you can go muta against this is if you rush to burrow. He only has 1 orbital, so at most he'll have 1 scan to use, and if you burrow banes in two separate locations that can't be hit by one scan, you can either delay the push, or just kill all his marines. Then your 9-10 muta pop magic boxed can beat the Thors and whatever else with Queens/Lings/maybe drones.
It's a really interesting all in, it's an interesting dynamic sniping queens instead of going for drones.
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
On January 11 2012 03:59 Tunzi wrote:
Tunzi's Guide to Countering Blazinghand's Thorship TvZ
1. Overlord scout
2. Make extra queens upon confirming 1 base terran
3. Make roaches for hellion based all in, or ling/bane for marine/scv based all in.
This actually summarizes what all my opponents do against me. Everyone does an overlord scout, or a ling scout. My opponents may make mistakes, but they are in Master League, and you don't get into Master League as zerg without learning some basic scouting- Zerg is a reactive race. I build my barracks, factory, AND starport at the ramp, and they see that. They scout two gas.
Sometimes they even scout the armory.
Most of them make roaches and an extra queen, sometimes two. Some of them make a baneling nest as well, anticipating a fight against repairing scvs. Several of them make crawlers. I think the important thing to bear in mind here is that you need to know when to stop droning. If you've hit like 40 drones and the terran is 1-basing, it's okay to stop droning and just make units-- taking a quick third like normal is a bad idea. Droning harder than that is also a bad idea-- making as many units as possible off of like 40-45 drones is what you want to do, since any further income from more drones will be much worse than having a standing army.
EDIT: In fact, in most of my allins, my thor harass itself deals minimal damage, and my opponent is ~20 food ahead of me when I knock on his front door. It's just that most of that is in drones ;_;
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On January 11 2012 04:05 Blazinghand wrote:Show nested quote +On January 11 2012 03:59 Tunzi wrote:
Tunzi's Guide to Countering Blazinghand's Thorship TvZ
1. Overlord scout
2. Make extra queens upon confirming 1 base terran
3. Make roaches for hellion based all in, or ling/bane for marine/scv based all in.
This actually summarizes what all my opponents do against me. Everyone does an overlord scout, or a ling scout. My opponents may make mistakes, but they are in Master League, and you don't get into Master League as zerg without learning some basic scouting- Zerg is a reactive race. I build my barracks, factory, AND starport at the ramp, and they see that. They scout two gas. Sometimes they even scout the armory. Most of them make roaches and an extra queen, sometimes two. Some of them make a baneling nest as well, anticipating a fight against repairing scvs. Several of them make crawlers. I think the important thing to bear in mind here is that you need to know when to stop droning. If you've hit like 40 drones and the terran is 1-basing, it's okay to stop droning and just make units-- taking a quick third like normal is a bad idea. Droning harder than that is also a bad idea-- making as many units as possible off of like 40-45 drones is what you want to do, since any further income from more drones will be much worse than having a standing army. EDIT: In fact, in most of my allins, my thor harass itself deals minimal damage, and my opponent is ~20 food ahead of me when I knock on his front door. It's just that most of that is in drones ;_;
Actually, you can get into master league without scouting well. 98% of Zerg players up to low-mid masters just make units at random times and hope it works, especially in ZvZ/T. Like, the guys you were playing were trying to go Stephano style against Thors when they had ALREADY SEEN A THOR DROP. They are stuck on one minded builds, because a lot of Terrans in low masters actually don't know how to beat the turtle/fast hive/3/3 ultra/crackling/infestor style off of 3-4 base because you can get into masters without ever making a single ghost.
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
On January 11 2012 04:17 Flonomenalz wrote:Show nested quote +On January 11 2012 04:05 Blazinghand wrote:On January 11 2012 03:59 Tunzi wrote:
Tunzi's Guide to Countering Blazinghand's Thorship TvZ
1. Overlord scout
2. Make extra queens upon confirming 1 base terran
3. Make roaches for hellion based all in, or ling/bane for marine/scv based all in.
This actually summarizes what all my opponents do against me. Everyone does an overlord scout, or a ling scout. My opponents may make mistakes, but they are in Master League, and you don't get into Master League as zerg without learning some basic scouting- Zerg is a reactive race. I build my barracks, factory, AND starport at the ramp, and they see that. They scout two gas. Sometimes they even scout the armory. Most of them make roaches and an extra queen, sometimes two. Some of them make a baneling nest as well, anticipating a fight against repairing scvs. Several of them make crawlers. I think the important thing to bear in mind here is that you need to know when to stop droning. If you've hit like 40 drones and the terran is 1-basing, it's okay to stop droning and just make units-- taking a quick third like normal is a bad idea. Droning harder than that is also a bad idea-- making as many units as possible off of like 40-45 drones is what you want to do, since any further income from more drones will be much worse than having a standing army. EDIT: In fact, in most of my allins, my thor harass itself deals minimal damage, and my opponent is ~20 food ahead of me when I knock on his front door. It's just that most of that is in drones ;_; Actually, you can get into master league without scouting well. 98% of Zerg players up to low-mid masters just make units at random times and hope it works, especially in ZvZ/T. Like, the guys you were playing were trying to go Stephano style against Thors when they had ALREADY SEEN A THOR DROP. They are stuck on one minded builds, because a lot of Terrans in low masters actually don't know how to beat the turtle/fast hive/3/3 ultra/crackling/infestor style off of 3-4 base because you can get into masters without ever making a single ghost.
*cough*ImighthavegottenintoMasterwithoutusingghosts*cough*
I guess when it comes down to it, people have like straight-up 7-pooled into Master League so maybe I shouldn't get too impressed with my own skill level ;_;
EDIT: I did use ghosts in TvP though. I just didn't use them in TvZ. I've only started doing so recently, and not on the ladder.
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thanks for the build, i love it, being mixing it in with cloaked banshees and random siege timings for epic lols but it's fun and produces alot of zerg rage (which is always good right?)
...on the note of ghosts, masters and never built a ghost in tvz  does that mean I'm terrible?
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I really appreciate extra section on micro ... I'm pretty clueless on how some players do certain moves.
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Looks really good, I have been looking for a good 1base all-in to compliment my TvZ BoX. The writeup was excellent with really good explanation of the targets and goals of each part of your build, the micro tip were just icing. Don't worry about the hordes of TL diamond armchair experts who are bashing your build, I think it has alot of potential.
You didn't emphasis if you do this but I think it would be great to show your banshees as soon as possible to try to get the zerg to panic and build a ton of spores/queens that won't help him too much against your coming attack.
Also since this is kind of the underlying theme of the build I think it would be really leet if after drones your 3rd priority target was actually larva rather then army.
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You can get into masters without *insert x here* . Like expanding for instance.
Anyway the strategy looks interesting I've heard that thor banshee is a good 1 base build and this seems like
a nice variation will try it sometime.
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Very nice guide
Thanks for making!
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I think this is a really cool build (and I'm a zerg!). I'm not the most talented player mechanically (only in diamond), but one thing I have learned is to always target the medivac with queens when getting dropped early like this. It appears that you only get one medivac with this build- have you ever had it targeted down? Three queens can bring down a medivac remarkably quickly, and it is not unreasonable to have three queens at 7:20. It seems strange to me that the zergs you play wouldn't do this. Anyway, like I said, very imaginative build and I like the strategy behind it.
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I give this guide a 5/5 for structuring and clarity, easily the best guide I've read thus far. the only thing I would have added is putting in a few more pictures, showing ranges and good thor/medivac placement against queen positions, so you can easily demonstrate to people that you've accounted for things like multiple queens, and show them how to deal with them.
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This looks exactly like thor drop on LT back in season 1 and/or two. It, as I remember as I abused the fuck out of it, lost to well timed 2 hatch fast lair roach + speed OL + drop into T base. 1 thor and marines cannot deal with it. Extra pair of queens, target the dropship, not the thor. He cannot stay if the dropship dies. If he does, what real damage can 1 thor do that a quick pack of lings and drones + 1-2 queens couldn't stop, then continue to drone and drop?
Good guide, although as some have said, I do question the responses from many of these zergs, and their scouting timing and patterns. I picked up a few replays from the season 5...and god I think you could've just SCV raven viking mass and win against them lol.
Again though, the guide is very well done. Completely off topic, but still related, I do appreciate and actually read through every post I see you make in a thread I'm in. You rarely, if ever, disappoint. Also, by no means does this still NOT work. It reminds me of pookies pincer mojlner or whatever it was called. Thor and scv poke front with hellion marine drop in main.
And random to whoever commented on masters TvZ without ghosts. I can beat some of the lower GM zergs with basic just marine tank medic, and not all inning. Ghosts just make the matchup feel so much less dependent on a great control move and tactical attack timings. I'm just recently cutting at 175 supply, and no matter where in the game, starting 2-3 ghost academies, their upgrades, and a nuke and getting maxed on ghosts.
The issue is microing them is difficult for me. Infantry medics on 1, tanks on 2. Hard to use 3 for me >_<
I like the part where you snipe the Queens it's a smart strategy. Limiting the Larvae many Terrans will avoid targeting Queens but it's really important to kill them its basically like killing a production building.
(From below me) Really...? Most terrans won't go for queens first...? That's the first thing I'd think anyone would go for...
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If i scout Terran one basing hard when i sac my ovie and i see Thors the first thing i do is throw down a roach warren and baneling nest it pretty much hard counters the Thor All-Ins off one base.
You can make a few spine crawlers too and/or spores because they usually make banshees always when they are doing this.
Rule #1 when facing a 1-base Terran over-make units and never drone too much because once his one base -all-in fails the game is pretty much over because you can deny him expanding forever and even when he gets on two base; if his 1-base all-in does little damage you will be 3-4 base Zerg vs a 1-2base Terran and pretty much just roll -over him.
3-4 Queens some Roaches banelings/spines and spores is all you need to deal with most Terran 1-base cheese.
That composition will even work well vs marauder hellion all-ins.
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I like the part where you snipe the Queens it's a smart strategy. Limiting the Larvae many Terrans will avoid targeting Queens but it's really important to kill them its basically like killing a production building.
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Yet another terran allin... Normally i would be happy for new strats, but this is just depressing. I just hate gimmicky builds...
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Nice work, sir! Those are some very entertaining replays.
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For some reason I remember playing against something similar months ago on Slag Pits (I think that was the name?)
The reason #1 it works is map control. The zerg sees terran 1 basing and prepares (at the time 1basing terrans were really common, right now you might even get an advantage because it is not anymore); then holds the harass, and finds himself not knowing what to do because of absolutely no map vision.
Of course you will find poor reactions in the replays, because those were blind reactions. Terran has every tech option available, and you don't even know if he has taken his natural.
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
On January 11 2012 04:40 lac29 wrote:
I really appreciate extra section on micro ... I'm pretty clueless on how some players do certain moves.
No problem! When I first started trying to thorship down in like plat league or whatever, I had no idea how to do any of the micro for picking up and dropping thors, and I lost many a game to thor mismicro, or, conversly, to my macro slipping during thor micro. if you can think of anything else I could add to that section, let me know-- I had to do some serious thinking to convert what was for me a mechanical/muscle memory knowledge into the written form, and I easily could have missed something.
On January 11 2012 06:13 Blezza wrote:Yet another terran allin... Normally i would be happy for new strats, but this is just depressing. I just hate gimmicky builds...
Technically this is a very, very old strat. I just added in the viking first and the banshee followup-- but the idea of "thorship" has been around since beta due to the way maps were laid out. But yeah this is admittedly a gimmick build.
On January 11 2012 05:38 theshrabster wrote:
I give this guide a 5/5 for structuring and clarity, easily the best guide I've read thus far. the only thing I would have added is putting in a few more pictures, showing ranges and good thor/medivac placement against queen positions, so you can easily demonstrate to people that you've accounted for things like multiple queens, and show them how to deal with them.
This actually sounds like a good idea. when I get home I'll add some screenshots to the micro and decisionmaking sections as a visual aid for the actual "thorship harass" part of the build.
EDIT: As a note, this is by no means an "unbeatable" build. Any zerg player who watches a few replays of this will know how to scout it and beat it. That's the reason I've written this guide. Hopefully, if nothing else, a certain percentage of trran players will learn about this build and execute it, or some zerg players will be like "oh, whose this ladder opponent, 'Blazinghand'? I remember he's that tool with the thor all-in" and either way I won't be able to win a lot with it anymore :D
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Well written and a thoroughly enjoyable guide.
If your W/L ratio is 85%, it'd be interesting to see those games you have lost with this build.
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He has included all of his losses in the replay pack.
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
On January 11 2012 08:32 Blossom wrote:
Well written and a thoroughly enjoyable guide.
If your W/L ratio is 85%, it'd be interesting to see those games you have lost with this build.
On January 11 2012 08:38 rebotfc wrote:
He has included all of his losses in the replay pack.
Yeah that's basically it. I'll repack all the losses into a separate zip file and upload that too for people who just want to see me lose though without sorting through it all I think they're mostly in older patches, but there should be a couple in the most recent patch.
If you want to find the losses right now, the easiest way to do it is to download the comprehensive pack, then use sc2gears to search for games lost by Blazinghand. I'll put together an appropriate file when I get home though.
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Just found it. Reminds me much of this, without the early marines. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=203862
I feel you'd get more out of that thor/marinehellion elevator, or vis versa thor dropship marine hellion poke the front. You can still go into the banshee with a swap of tech labs. Not to mention the semi FE. I'm sure the thor is much later, but I feel you can do as crippling of damage with a two prong attack, and still expo and 3 rax 1 fac 1 port 2 base play them
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
I actually have a version of this that gets an expo... but that's a guide for another day
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On January 10 2012 19:33 Blazinghand wrote:
Unfortunately, I do this in laddering sessions which are buried in my entirely unorganized VoDs. If people are interested I could stream a replay, but there are a couple replay packs up there if you want to look for yourself.
Actually, streaming a replay is a very good idea, imo. Git r dun!
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
On January 11 2012 10:58 VashTS wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2012 19:33 Blazinghand wrote:
Unfortunately, I do this in laddering sessions which are buried in my entirely unorganized VoDs. If people are interested I could stream a replay, but there are a couple replay packs up there if you want to look for yourself. Actually, streaming a replay is a very good idea, imo. Git r dun!
Already did.
Read op
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This is a sick build. It's really difficult to execute, but when all the pieces come together it's very rewarding. Look out
zergs in my MMR :O
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Amazing strategy. I will definitely give this a try
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I tried this as EU Master and it is quite micro intensive. However, I have issues with mass ling/bling plus very few mutalisks. It is impossible for me to trade efficiently with simple marines. I made some adjustments and incorporated ForGG's Banshee Hellion Thor expand build. Thordrop is so incredible strong that I feel the need to make it standard.
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
On January 12 2012 02:54 VoO wrote:
I tried this as EU Master and it is quite micro intensive. However, I have issues with mass ling/bling plus very few mutalisks. It is impossible for me to trade efficiently with simple marines. I made some adjustments and incorporated ForGG's Banshee Hellion Thor expand build. Thordrop is so incredible strong that I feel the need to make it standard.
It's unfeasible to imagine a thor drop rush as standard, just because the delay in the natural forces an all-in follow up. If you're having trouble with ling/bane, you may need to split your marines more aggressively, or pull some additional scvs to mitigate scv losses. Try to focusfire your thors onto various banelings, and use your banshees to pick off banelings beforehand. Remember that if you can make it past the initial engagement, ling/bane is very weak.
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Nice guide. Very well written
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On your phase 3 zerg defense can you post your ideas against ling only or ling infestor? Otherwise you've only talked about outdated zerg builds and I dont see much credibility for your allin.
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
On January 22 2012 20:36 Exempt. wrote:
On your phase 3 zerg defense can you post your ideas against ling only or ling infestor? Otherwise you've only talked about outdated zerg builds and I dont see much credibility for your allin.
Ling only doesn't have the ability to deal with the high number of marines, and as mentioned, any sort of lair tech defense won't have the number of units necessary to deal with the thors. A small number of zerg players went ling-infestor or pure ling to defend against this build.
None of them succeeded.
EDIT: Also, if the idea of making a large number of roaches and banelings seems outdated, that's perhaps because you're not taking into account the fact that you're fighting marines and thors off of 1 base-- in preparation for a 1 base all-in, it's good play to make a large number of roaches or banes rather than trying to get out mutalisks or infestors. The compositions my adversaries choose may seem unusual, but that is because my style of play is unusual. If I were going marine/tank off of 2 bases, or some other standard play, you'd see more standard responses.
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So let's talk for a moment about decision-making. The goals of your viking harassment, in order of importance, are:
A) Clear an Overlord- and Zergling- free path for the thorship to travel
B) Kill Overlords
C) Be a dick
The targets for your thor, in order of importance, are
A) Queens
B) Drones
C) Army
E) Overlords
Your thor's target priority AI works like this:
A) Enemy ground units attacking the thor within 7 range.
B) Overlords, any overlords, anywhere within like a screen length.
C) Stuff you actually want to kill
You sir, are a person who made me laugh where i sat! Love the word use
You are a very funny person.
Will defienetly try this build :D
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
OK guys, we get a fresh new batch of replays. As I scramble and try to clear my bonus pool for this season, I find myself all-inning in some of my TvZs... and for me that means thorship.
http://drop.sc/packs/524
Several gems for you connoisseurs this time around.
In the replay against Marine (Z): He rushes for Infestor off 2 base and gets brutalized. The BM that began at the opening of the game only ramps up as he realizes his sad, doomed fate. It's hard to say what motivated his BM, but was strong indeed. He felt like the game was unfair, which, well, it is, if you rush lair. I particularly enjoyed this one.
In the replay against Marineforger (Z): He goes for a 2 base roach bust, a profoundly unwise choice against a 1-basing terran. I bleed a few depots and some marines, and the thorship is able to terrorize his mineral line and queens unmolested. The followup all-in is basically a formality. As a fellow all-inner, he sends me a respectful "gg" before tapping out. Somehow, I think we understood each other.
In the replay against lunar (Z): He goes for a 28-drone baneling bust with 8 banelings, 24 zerglings. He busts the wall but can't overwhelm thor #2. He loses a creep queen and a couple overlords. He rushes for lair afterwards. Realizing too late his folly, he begins a lair and powers up to 44 drones in an attempt to mass roaches. As a fellow all-inner, he "ggs" before leaving. I think we knew eachother well this game as well.
In the replay against MohuRaN (Z): This is really the crowing achievement of my night. This guy held the all-in with a muta rush (lost all the mutas, but held it). So I made three more thors and allinned again ^^ and it worked. I can only imagine the horror when he realized the same all-in was coming and he didn't have any banelings this time around ^^
I even cut the VoD from my stream just so you can witness the miracle firsthand if you'd like:
Twitch.tv: http://www.twitch.tv/blazinghand/b/308215602
Embedded video (youtube): + Show Spoiler +http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WFr8RGW5sh8
Sometimes, when playing standard, I almost forget the pure joy that is utilizing this micro-heavy idiosyncratic all-in.
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This seems fun, I wonder what this does to Gold- Platinum Zergs =3.
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Cool build, I may try this - although I feel like you're taking a big risk in hoping your zerg opponent doesn't attack. There's no way you can really scout with this build, so if Zerg opens hatch first into an eco-baneling bust, roach/ling, or even roach/ling/baneling I don't see much defensive potential.
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On January 10 2012 20:29 XRaDiiX wrote:
I actually think i faced you or someone doing this build on Ladder.
I crushed them (Masters League) and ended up 4 base Zerg vs his 1 base Terran because he couldn't expand after my roach baneling queen held off his scouted Thor/scv/banshee/marine Cheese.
He kept picking up the Thor and flying it back to his base to Repair when it got low. But he lost way too many SCV's failing like a scrub.
I held it off and laughed at him while i expanded and had 4-bases to his one base!
User was warned for clearly not reading the Strategy Forum Guidelines
Cool story, bro.
Anyways, just tested the build. The build order I got down in first try, and the attack was easy as well.
I don't intend to do this every single game, but when playing BO3's I'm surely gonna mix it once in a while.
Thanks a lot for the guide. Hope you get over your addiction to the build(wouldn't mind if you developed another allin though!).
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On February 11 2012 21:32 Blazinghand wrote:OK guys, we get a fresh new batch of replays. As I scramble and try to clear my bonus pool for this season, I find myself all-inning in some of my TvZs... and for me that means thorship. http://drop.sc/packs/524Several gems for you connoisseurs this time around. In the replay against Marine (Z): He rushes for Infestor off 2 base and gets brutalized. The BM that began at the opening of the game only ramps up as he realizes his sad, doomed fate. It's hard to say what motivated his BM, but was strong indeed. He felt like the game was unfair, which, well, it is, if you rush lair. I particularly enjoyed this one. In the replay against Marineforger (Z): He goes for a 2 base roach bust, a profoundly unwise choice against a 1-basing terran. I bleed a few depots and some marines, and the thorship is able to terrorize his mineral line and queens unmolested. The followup all-in is basically a formality. As a fellow all-inner, he sends me a respectful "gg" before tapping out. Somehow, I think we understood each other. In the replay against lunar (Z): He goes for a 28-drone baneling bust with 8 banelings, 24 zerglings. He busts the wall but can't overwhelm thor #2. He loses a creep queen and a couple overlords. He rushes for lair afterwards. Realizing too late his folly, he begins a lair and powers up to 44 drones in an attempt to mass roaches. As a fellow all-inner, he "ggs" before leaving. I think we knew eachother well this game as well. In the replay against MohuRaN (Z): This is really the crowing achievement of my night. This guy held the all-in with a muta rush (lost all the mutas, but held it). So I made three more thors and allinned again ^^ and it worked. I can only imagine the horror when he realized the same all-in was coming and he didn't have any banelings this time around ^^ I even cut the VoD from my stream just so you can witness the miracle firsthand if you'd like: Twitch.tv: http://www.twitch.tv/blazinghand/b/308215602Embedded video (youtube): + Show Spoiler +http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WFr8RGW5sh8 Sometimes, when playing standard, I almost forget the pure joy that is utilizing this micro-heavy idiosyncratic all-in.
Wtf up with that depot placement in that vod?
And 2nd off, I think tang has a point. How do you scout a econ bust, or roach ling, or roach ling bane rushes? I feel you have no map control until that single viking comes out to clear the way for the thor.
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Nice guide, if the current patch goes through I look forward to using this on ladder, along with the marauder/hellion all-in! :D
Also, this is pretty funny:
On January 10 2012 20:29 XRaDiiX wrote:
I actually think i faced you or someone doing this build on Ladder.
I crushed them (Masters League) and ended up 4 base Zerg vs his 1 base Terran because he couldn't expand after my roach baneling queen held off his scouted Thor/scv/banshee/marine Cheese.
He kept picking up the Thor and flying it back to his base to Repair when it got low. But he lost way too many SCV's failing like a scrub.
I held it off and laughed at him while i expanded and had 4-bases to his one base!
User was warned for clearly not reading the Strategy Forum Guidelines
^ Guy with 1500 posts gets warned for not reading guidelines. XD
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Hi, great thread got a quick question though. I am a high gold random player facing mid to high platinums 90% of the time. TvZ is my absolute worst matchup. Would my opponents be skilled enough that I can use this on? Also, when you extract your thor is it better to go back to your base for repair or attack another area? Thanks.
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On February 12 2012 03:27 Fencer710 wrote:Nice guide, if the current patch goes through I look forward to using this on ladder, along with the marauder/hellion all-in! :D Also, this is pretty funny: Show nested quote +On January 10 2012 20:29 XRaDiiX wrote:
I actually think i faced you or someone doing this build on Ladder.
I crushed them (Masters League) and ended up 4 base Zerg vs his 1 base Terran because he couldn't expand after my roach baneling queen held off his scouted Thor/scv/banshee/marine Cheese.
He kept picking up the Thor and flying it back to his base to Repair when it got low. But he lost way too many SCV's failing like a scrub.
I held it off and laughed at him while i expanded and had 4-bases to his one base!
User was warned for clearly not reading the Strategy Forum Guidelines ^ Guy with 1500 posts gets warned for not reading guidelines. XD
Why are you all so adament about allin against zerg now with ghost nerf? I never go ghosts, and do quite well against zergs. I only get ghosts late late 4+ bases, and then only to EMP/snipe infestors. I always get vikings for broods. I feel they're just the ish.
I never all in zerg, I'm just aggressive. You can always end the game, win or lose, before hive against any zerg strat...sans double upgrade lings into infestor fast hive, that's just imba.
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
On February 12 2012 03:29 Brutaxilos wrote:
Hi, great thread got a quick question though. I am a high gold random player facing mid to high platinums 90% of the time. TvZ is my absolute worst matchup. Would my opponents be skilled enough that I can use this on? Also, when you extract your thor is it better to go back to your base for repair or attack another area? Thanks.
If you're trying to get better at TvZ, This build will NOT help you. It is an all-in that uses micro that's unrelated to standard play, and the only macro that happens is one base. If you want to improve your TvZ as your weakest matchup, I'd recommend learning a Reactor Hellion Expand or some other standard play.
On February 12 2012 00:37 TangSC wrote:
Cool build, I may try this - although I feel like you're taking a big risk in hoping your zerg opponent doesn't attack. There's no way you can really scout with this build, so if Zerg opens hatch first into an eco-baneling bust, roach/ling, or even roach/ling/baneling I don't see much defensive potential.
On February 12 2012 02:41 iAmJeffReY wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2012 21:32 Blazinghand wrote:OK guys, we get a fresh new batch of replays. As I scramble and try to clear my bonus pool for this season, I find myself all-inning in some of my TvZs... and for me that means thorship. http://drop.sc/packs/524Several gems for you connoisseurs this time around. In the replay against Marine (Z): He rushes for Infestor off 2 base and gets brutalized. The BM that began at the opening of the game only ramps up as he realizes his sad, doomed fate. It's hard to say what motivated his BM, but was strong indeed. He felt like the game was unfair, which, well, it is, if you rush lair. I particularly enjoyed this one. In the replay against Marineforger (Z): He goes for a 2 base roach bust, a profoundly unwise choice against a 1-basing terran. I bleed a few depots and some marines, and the thorship is able to terrorize his mineral line and queens unmolested. The followup all-in is basically a formality. As a fellow all-inner, he sends me a respectful "gg" before tapping out. Somehow, I think we understood each other. In the replay against lunar (Z): He goes for a 28-drone baneling bust with 8 banelings, 24 zerglings. He busts the wall but can't overwhelm thor #2. He loses a creep queen and a couple overlords. He rushes for lair afterwards. Realizing too late his folly, he begins a lair and powers up to 44 drones in an attempt to mass roaches. As a fellow all-inner, he "ggs" before leaving. I think we knew eachother well this game as well. In the replay against MohuRaN (Z): This is really the crowing achievement of my night. This guy held the all-in with a muta rush (lost all the mutas, but held it). So I made three more thors and allinned again ^^ and it worked. I can only imagine the horror when he realized the same all-in was coming and he didn't have any banelings this time around ^^ I even cut the VoD from my stream just so you can witness the miracle firsthand if you'd like: Twitch.tv: http://www.twitch.tv/blazinghand/b/308215602Embedded video (youtube): + Show Spoiler +http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WFr8RGW5sh8 Sometimes, when playing standard, I almost forget the pure joy that is utilizing this micro-heavy idiosyncratic all-in. Wtf up with that depot placement in that vod? And 2nd off, I think tang has a point. How do you scout a econ bust, or roach ling, or roach ling bane rushes? I feel you have no map control until that single viking comes out to clear the way for the thor.
This is a good question! Thanks for asking. If you take a look at my most recent replay pack, two of the zergs all-in me-- one with banelings and one with roaches. If you look through the lifetime replay pack there are countless replays of zergs trying to all-in with some mixture of roaches, lings, and banes, and you can see how I deal with it. Unfortunately, a lot of how I deal with all-ins and the like is situational depending on how many depots etc he kills (and he WILL kill some depots) but I'll do my best to explain in detail what I do to fight these all-ins. In general, though, once you have a Thor out you're bulletproof, and if you're worried you just wall super hard. I'm talking every prod fac, every depot at the top of your ramp.
My scv scout's goal is to see his hatchery and gas timing. If I scout a 1-basing zerg, well, I just read the "Terran handbook" and make a bunker since he's also 1-basing. This is pretty rare. If he goes hatch-first and doesn't take any gasses before my scv is dead, any aggression will be so late I'll be able to defend it. If I scout a hatch-first that has a gas, I assume he's gonna have some sort of garbage coming so I wall the top of my ramp with every building but the armory.
This almost always buys enough time to get a thor and a dropship out, and then I just micro my way to victory. The wall won't stop the all-in, but it'll buy time. Expensive time, but valuable time:
+ Show Spoiler [The Great Wall] +
In terms of map control against the zerg, your viking is only popping out like 45 seconds later than the first two hellions of a reactor hellion expand, and it's SO ANNOYING for the zerg player :D You are admittedly working with less map control than a reactor hellion expand, but somewhat more than a 1 rax reaper expand or 1 rax FE. In any case, your initial "getting up in his grill" should get started between 6:10 an 6:20 depending on where he's hiding his scouting overlord and/or whether or not he already tried to sacrifice it.
+ Show Spoiler [Ready to Plunder] +
In any case, against eco busts with like 30 drones (as opposed to all-in busts with fewer) you will always have your thor out in time to defend, and there's no bust that's good against a well-microed thorship.
+ Show Spoiler [Thor Timing and Roach Timing] +
In any case, I'd characterize this build as entirely safe against all-ins, or as safe as a terran build CAN be without blindly making bunkers.
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
Alright gents, so I'm here with new content and VoDs! Despite my efforts to free myself from this build, I still find myself using it sometimes to get out of a losing streak
In any case, the maps have changed a lot since I first started this, so I thought I'd talk about which maps Thorship is good and bad on. I don't do my own vetos like this since I play other matchups BUT it's just my general thoughts, having Thorshipped a fair number of games.
An illustrated guide to the S7 Map Pool!
+ Show Spoiler +Daybreak+ Show Spoiler +Red boxes represent typical Overlord areas. Green lines represent Thorship routes. Some Airspace, Ramped Main, Forward Main Ramp Cons: Ramped Natural, Choked Natural Verdict: No VetoCloud Kingdom+ Show Spoiler +Red boxes represent typical Overlord areas. Green lines represent Thorship routes. Large Main, Ramped Main Cons: Ramped Natural, Choked Natural, Recessed Main Ramp Verdict: VetoKorhal Compound+ Show Spoiler +Red boxes represent typical Overlord areas. Green lines represent Thorship routes. Some Airspace, Large Main, Ramped Main, Unramped Natural, Short Rush Distance Cons: Recessed Main Ramp Verdict: No VetoOhana+ Show Spoiler +Red boxes represent typical Overlord areas. Green lines represent Thorship routes. Large Main, Ramped Main Cons: Minimal Airspace, Ramped Natural, Recessed Main Ramp Verdict: VetoEntombed Valley+ Show Spoiler +Red boxes represent typical Overlord areas. Green lines represent Thorship routes. Some Airspace, Ramped Main, Forward Main Ramp Cons: Ramped Natural, Long Rush Distance, Long Drop Distance Verdict: VetoAntiga Shipyard+ Show Spoiler +Red boxes represent typical Overlord areas. Green lines represent Thorship routes. Large Main, Ramped Main, Wide Natural, Close Air Spawns Cons: Recessed Main Ramp, Ramped Natural, Cross Spawns Verdict: PreferenceMetalopolis+ Show Spoiler +Red boxes represent typical Overlord areas. Green lines represent Thorship routes. Massive Airspace, Large Main, Ramped Main, Unramped Natural, Wide Natural, Short Rush Distance, Close Air Spawns Cons: Thorship Too Stronk Verdict: No VetoMetropolis+ Show Spoiler +Red boxes represent typical Overlord areas. Green lines represent Thorship routes. Good Airspace, Ramped Main, Unramped Natural, Close Air Spawns Cons: Recessed Main Ramp, Choked Natural Verdict: No VetoShakuras Plateau+ Show Spoiler +Red boxes represent typical Overlord areas. Green lines represent Thorship routes. Some Airspace, Large Main, Ramped Main, Close Air Spawns Cons: Recessed Main Ramp, Ramped Natural, Choked Natural Verdict: PreferenceTal'Darim Altar+ Show Spoiler +Red boxes represent typical Overlord areas. Green lines represent Thorship routes. Some Airspace, Large Mai Cons: Ramped Natural, Choked Natural, Unramped Main, Massive Rush Distance Verdict: Veto
VoD: A Typical Thorship:
+ Show Spoiler +http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v9wwy7ckhnU
VoD: Thorship vs Roach/Ling:
+ Show Spoiler +http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6kglfkHEKEM
Clip: Thorship vs Roach/Bane
+ Show Spoiler +http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uoy47X8osKk
Happy Thorshipping!
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