EPT[G] Zerg Guide to Macro-Aggression - Page 6
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Tobberoth
Sweden6375 Posts
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kybarnet
United States8 Posts
1) 16 drones per min patch (2 per patch). Some say 3 for far patches is more optimal, but for Z in general (unless you are doing a two base timing) would you say no more than 16? 2) ALWAYS build structures, mine gas, with new morphed drones (rather than pull and replace). Honestly I could imagine that over time that this creates a lot of econ efficiency. Personally I tend to mass pull, then mass redrone, not really caring if I'm at 16 or 22. 3) Taking 3rd hatches with map control. IF you have map control, he advocates a 3rd when you have ~5 workers on your expo. Is this reasonable (assuming the opponent has expanded)? I think those things are pretty solid advice. | ||
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mrGRAPE
Singapore293 Posts
On January 11 2012 17:48 kybarnet wrote: Why is this stickied? Wasn't this guy banned / caught making several accounts so that he could bump his own threads? As to the build this is what I have to say: 1) 16 drones per min patch (2 per patch). Some say 3 for far patches is more optimal, but for Z in general (unless you are doing a two base timing) would you say no more than 16? 2) ALWAYS build structures, mine gas, with new morphed drones (rather than pull and replace). Honestly I could imagine that over time that this creates a lot of econ efficiency. Personally I tend to mass pull, then mass redrone, not really caring if I'm at 16 or 22. 3) Taking 3rd hatches with map control. IF you have map control, he advocates a 3rd when you have ~5 workers on your expo. Is this reasonable (assuming the opponent has expanded)? I think those things are pretty solid advice. 1) I'm going to say 2 per close mineral patch and 3 per far patch if you want. Honestly don't see much difference although I keep extra drones on my mineral patches in case I have to build structures right at that moment. 2) I found that the timings line up quite nicely up till 60 supply - you'll almost always have a drone that's just about done when you're supposed to be building something or putting into gas. After that, my build diverges away from TangSC's so I don't follow as strict. You're right though, mass pulling gets whatever you need to be done (and quicker). Sometimes I just can't wait for that drone to finish spawning. 3) I wait till my natural is just about saturated before taking my 3rd if it helps. The opponent will almost always have mules to back up his mineral eco. The difference is if he's using mules to fund his eco, he's not going to be using scans to see if you're building a third (imo), so it's still safe to expand but only when you're decently saturated enough on the natural. Also, I think people make the mistake of taking all 4 geysers too early, putting hurt on their mineral intake. You only really need those 4 geysers if you have decent saturation and are already going lair. No point getting 4 gas geysers but not having enough drones to mine at those geysers + minerals imo. My 2 cents. | ||
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Tobberoth
Sweden6375 Posts
On January 11 2012 17:48 kybarnet wrote:3) Taking 3rd hatches with map control. IF you have map control, he advocates a 3rd when you have ~5 workers on your expo. Is this reasonable (assuming the opponent has expanded)? IMO, it works out perfectly. See, you take your third as you are pushing, and then immediately start to mass drones. What you should find is that as your attack is done, your third is just about to pop, and you already have decent saturation in your nat. If you saturate then start your third, you're more or less just gimping your production capabilities, since you won't have enough larva. The earlier you can get the third up and get creep around it, the better since that will let you plop down spores and spines in time. I personally don't see a problem with starting a third even if you're severely undersaturated on your nat, it's the same thing you do in ZvP if toss goes FFE. | ||
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Sogetsu
514 Posts
Most players, if they see their builds giving them a victory (that they copy from guides obviously), the majority will choose to not understand the game, they will instead copy more and more builds, and take the wins without understanding what is going on Both things should be complemented, and many people take only one of them, while taking the Build instead Understanding is better because you can easily win, but at some point they will be under water Skill =/= Knowledge Build =/= Mechanics Winning =/= Understanding the game | ||
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Tobberoth
Sweden6375 Posts
On January 11 2012 20:30 Sogetsu wrote: The problem with your concept of "learning to play" is this: Most players, if they see their builds giving them a victory (that they copy from guides obviously), the majority will choose to not understand the game, they will instead copy more and more builds, and take the wins without understanding what is going on Both things should be complemented, and many people take only one of them, while taking the Build instead Understanding is better because you can easily win, but at some point they will be under water Skill =/= Knowledge Build =/= Mechanics Winning =/= Understanding the game There are already guides on understanding the matchups. This is a guide to a specific ZvT build. If a player just wants to learn a build, that's up to the player in question. They will win until they don't win anymore, and that's that. | ||
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Shamgoth
Belgium8 Posts
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TangSC
Canada1866 Posts
On January 11 2012 09:33 zoohairz wrote: Tang, this is coming from me. Im notorious for cheesing almost everyone on the ladder at the GM level. Stop posting crap. Your builds are all either cheesy or all-in (i should know), so stop making threads with misleading titles. You're gonna divert the lower league players who should really be practicing legit standard macro mechanics into people who rely on cheesing and all inning. This may sound hypocritical but the only times i ever cheese is on ladder, i can play a standard macro game too and still beat top level players. Ive got replays to prove it if anyone doesnt believe me either. There is indeed a playstyle that consists of a zerg being aggressive, but this is not it. So stop posting crap. If it's your opinion that newer zerg players must play "standard" macro to improve, that's fine...there's no right or wrong answer. In my experience, it's been the opposite - I've observed (and have taken detailed notes) showing that those who work on aggressive styles improve micro, macro, and multitasking more quickly than those who play a passive style. The way I first got to diamond/master/GM was through aggressive timing attacks, not macro, and that's why I'm trying to show that there are multiple stylistic choices available for zerg players of all skill levels. I don't think there need to be set-in-stone rules as to how a player chooses to play their game, because I think it's not so much what you do, it's how well you do it. Just play your game, there's always a way to make it work. | ||
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NoisyNinja
United States991 Posts
On January 09 2012 07:20 Soldier92 wrote: I've read all your guides Tang, and I'm wondering if you will ever include anything beyond 1 base timings. At tbhis point in the meta 1 base plays are becoming less and less successful. I haven't seen any plan for a transition in your guides, are they allin gambles? User was warned for this post User was warned for this post Clearly someone didn't read the whole guide. He has a third at 7:15 and goes 14/14 into an expansion. He drones while he attacks, which is smart. | ||
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Mahtasooma
Germany475 Posts
I totally agree that my multitasking is getting far better by using this strategy. Sitting back and macroing... I can already do that quite good in high plat and it's taking me nowhere as most aggressive P or T timings are very very very strong. I'd like to see a similar strat to a greedy FFE with roaches, though, hitting at a cruicial timing before he has more gates up or Gateway tech ready usually. Off of a 11overpool, preferrably, because I do this 100% anyway against toss. Please. Thanks <3 | ||
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TangSC
Canada1866 Posts
On January 12 2012 23:22 Morghaine wrote: I totally agree that my multitasking is getting far better by using this strategy. Sitting back and macroing... I can already do that quite good in high plat and it's taking me nowhere as most aggressive P or T timings are very very very strong. I'd like to see a similar strat to a greedy FFE with roaches, though, hitting at a cruicial timing before he has more gates up or Gateway tech ready usually. Off of a 11overpool, preferrably, because I do this 100% anyway against toss. Please. Thanks <3 There's nothing better for multitasking than picking a strategy that lets you put on frequent pressure. In terms of FFE, I've had trouble breaking with roach/ling - Especially because a lot of players open FFE -> Voidray, and if they have a good wall they can use one voidray and infinite cannons to keep you back. However, I do have a guide in the works for ZvP that will allow you to put on all the pressure you could possibly ask for  | ||
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EndOfLineTv
United States741 Posts
The previous debate(s) 1. You are in danger to cloaked banshee follow ups: http://drop.sc/89777 This Terran opens up with a proxy 2 rax, I continue with my usual build with drone micro, The reason for roaches here is to aggressively scout the terran, to force him to show me what he is doing, The roaches are "sacked," while attempted to kill harvesters/buying time, meanwhile I am droning, and queening, and spore crawler making. 2. This hinders your ability to macro. http://drop.sc/89779 This game I go roach because I see that the terran is getting 1 gas. This means that he is likely two reaper/helion expand, or do some kind of 1 base all in. I have no idea which, so I am making roaches to force the terran to show me what he is doing, and to counter reaper/helion expand. Here you can clearly see that I get a mega drone/base advantage, know exactly what the terran is doing, and have the best surround/win ever. | ||
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Mahtasooma
Germany475 Posts
On January 13 2012 00:05 TangSC wrote: There's nothing better for multitasking than picking a strategy that lets you put on frequent pressure. In terms of FFE, I've had trouble breaking with roach/ling - Especially because a lot of players open FFE -> Voidray, and if they have a good wall they can use one voidray and infinite cannons to keep you back. However, I do have a guide in the works for ZvP that will allow you to put on all the pressure you could possibly ask for please please finish that guide. I feel like you can't defend your third against virtually every timing push off of a FFE, just because you basically have to defend your third AND your natural from the push, which is impossible due to force fields preventing reinforcements and it's impossible to have enough spines up to defend both bases. And if he doesn't push out and you didn't take your third, then it's gg, too, because his units are more cost efficient and you're not up a base early enough. So I feel like it's a loose-loose situation somewhat unless the P screws up. | ||
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TangSC
Canada1866 Posts
http://drop.sc/89811 http://drop.sc/89810 http://drop.sc/89809 | ||
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Kinetik_Inferno
United States1431 Posts
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BlackMTsidE
United States32 Posts
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Tobberoth
Sweden6375 Posts
On January 13 2012 02:11 Morghaine wrote: please please finish that guide. I feel like you can't defend your third against virtually every timing push off of a FFE, just because you basically have to defend your third AND your natural from the push, which is impossible due to force fields preventing reinforcements and it's impossible to have enough spines up to defend both bases. And if he doesn't push out and you didn't take your third, then it's gg, too, because his units are more cost efficient and you're not up a base early enough. So I feel like it's a loose-loose situation somewhat unless the P screws up. http://tangstarcraft.com/?p=590 Good guide on how to take 3 bases vs FFE and hold them vs more or less anything. | ||
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kast_
United States22 Posts
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Xterminator
47 Posts
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TangSC
Canada1866 Posts
On January 13 2012 05:38 Xterminator wrote: I like this strategy, I have used it several times with success, The part after the timing is where ideally if the terran doesnt harass at all you can get 200/200 at your time, I think if you don't win against the timing the terran can counter and force you to make units instead of drones. Haven't played more than 5 games so far, My favorite thing is that you dont have to worry about hellion harass and not being able to take a 3rd till 10-12 minutes. You really shouldn't drone/mass to 200 like I did in the replay, it's a bit unrealistic because you have to stay safe against counter-attacks. | ||
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