WCSAlso you never talk about getting to a maxed army, although you say you will talk about it. It's just countless little details about how to do your zvt cheese perfectly. The same cheese you already made a thread about.
[G] Zerg Guide to Macro-Aggression - Page 3
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kushm4sta
United States8877 Posts
Also you never talk about getting to a maxed army, although you say you will talk about it. It's just countless little details about how to do your zvt cheese perfectly. The same cheese you already made a thread about. | ||
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TangSC
Canada1852 Posts
On January 10 2012 00:40 kushm4sta wrote: I don't understand what this post has to do with macro. I do not consider maximizing early game economy to rush to 28 drones as economy. Also you never talk about getting to a maxed army, although you say you will talk about it. It's just countless little details about how to do your zvt cheese perfectly. The same cheese you already made a thread about. Maximizing early game economy is an extremely important part of macro. Please review "Step 3" - there's an example replay as well as pictures/analysis to show how you can open with the roach/ling and still move into a maxed army by 15:30. | ||
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eloist
United States1017 Posts
Also, I think the 32 ling follow up is overkill. 8 roaches this early should be able to do enough damage by themselves to set the terran back while you drone. If a counter attack comes, I'd rather then make some lungs or more roaches after a round of drones. | ||
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Tobberoth
Sweden5761 Posts
On January 10 2012 00:47 eloist wrote: I like your build order from an economics standpoint (8 roaches with no resources left over and at supply cap), however I think those roaches would be just a tiny bit too late to greet incoming hellions, wouldn't they? Also, I think the 32 ling follow up is overkill. 8 roaches this early should be able to do enough damage by themselves to set the terran back while you drone. If a counter attack comes, I'd rather then make some lungs or more roaches after a round of drones. He already states in the guide that the roaches obviously won't come out before the initial hellions, there's NO possible way to have roaches at that point without doing severe cuts to your economy. The first hellions have to be held back by queens and spines and possibly lings, there's no alternative. | ||
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mrGRAPE
Singapore293 Posts
On January 10 2012 00:47 eloist wrote: I like your build order from an economics standpoint (8 roaches with no resources left over and at supply cap), however I think those roaches would be just a tiny bit too late to greet incoming hellions, wouldn't they? Also, I think the 32 ling follow up is overkill. 8 roaches this early should be able to do enough damage by themselves to set the terran back while you drone. If a counter attack comes, I'd rather then make some lungs or more roaches after a round of drones. You can try building a spine crawler at your natural close to the ramp preferably if you see hellions coming out from your opponent base with that scouting ling you had at his ramp. Sometimes this coincides perfectly with particular points in your build like if he goes for fast dual hellion harass, you can cut speed and instead spend that 100 minerals on the spine. Other times it doesn't coincide so well and I find that simply just blocking the ramp should do just fine. You don't absolutely have to build a spine crawler unless it's really early or there's more than hellions coming and your Terran buddy's going for early hellion / ling pressure. It is also important that you put a tumor down in your base so you can link the creep from your main to your natural so that roaches can get there faster. | ||
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Asolmanx
Italy140 Posts
You might not come out terribly ahead, you might even be behind after the push, but still you won't be anything close to game changing | ||
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Jitsu
United States901 Posts
First, you still have to look at the Zerg race a race that has the ability to change itself on a whim if need be. I think the biggest point to this is the way Zerg's learn how to play their race at the lower levels (build drones until you need to build units). If the Protoss blocks you're expansion with a Pylon, you still have the ability to throw down a gas/pool before Hatch, which theoretically will work just as well. You might be a little late getting units out because of the lack of extra larvae production, but it's still feasible to pull early aggression off in this way. Second, I think while this build is primarily used for ZvT, the general idea behind it can be associated to any matchup. I think the most important thing to realize is what timing you want to attack and what advantages you want to have at that time. It's important to note that, at any moment, Zerg can completely switch from building workers to building an army, and visa versa. That's why I think it's feasable for Zerg's to push pressure on without the particular attack being labeled an "all-in." Each race has the ability to produce an army quickly, given enough production facilities, but Zerg has the unique ability to completely saturate a base with workers quicker than the other two. I think the most important aspect of Zerg early pressure isn't necessarily how much damage you do onto you're opponent, it's more important to know when it's the right time to pull back - doing damage is good, but not wasting you're units is much better. ~Jitsu | ||
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vahgar.r24
India444 Posts
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BowzerOG
1 Post
I'm going to learn the other races before moving out of silver league and then revisit all your zerg guides most likely. | ||
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TangSC
Canada1852 Posts
On January 10 2012 01:32 Asolmanx wrote: You might not come out terribly ahead, you might even be behind after the push, but still you won't be anything close to game changing That's exactly it. It gives you a CHANCE to win the game, and a chance to put on pressure. There are VERY few circumstances where you will get 8 roaches to the terran base at 7:15 and do no damage - especially if you have zerglings as well. If they've taken an expansion, it's almost guaranteed that they will have to lift off for a while. At the same time, you're droning, teching, taking a 3rd and preparing for the mid-late game while terran's still focused on getting the units/tech they need to push down their own ramp. Also, just with the way the metagame is, terran players are so used to being the aggressor early. These types of timing attacks can throw the terran player of their timings for the remainder of the game. They may forget upgrades, time their 3rd and additional structures poorly, etc. They may even interpret your aggression as an all-in and choose a course of actions that puts them behind you in a macro game. They might think "This guy just tried to all-in me and failed, I'm going to do an improvised hellion/marine push and end it". Then they push out and are surprised to find out you have 3 hatcheries with a solid economy to pump out a sturdy roach/ling defense (which gives you ANOTHER opportunity to be aggressive once you kill their push). | ||
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1A.Browbeat
Canada26 Posts
This is exactly the type of build I was looking for, because it has allowed me to take map control and momentum in the earlier part of the game when 6 hellions or so are usually denying me complete map vision. well done. and thanks. | ||
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shadowxi
Australia2 Posts
Good read. | ||
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rustypipe
Canada206 Posts
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NaumNaumers2
4 Posts
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TangSC
Canada1852 Posts
On January 10 2012 06:04 rustypipe wrote: Working on getting some replays posted of it working out well and of counters of it but the place where I usally post sc2replayed.com is broken and wouldn't let me post the replays. Still working on it, i'll post as soon as I get a site that will upload the replays I'm working on allowing replay uploads on my website, that way anytime I post a strategy guide users can submit their own replays showing the strengths/weaknesses of the style. I use drop.sc, it's fast and easy. Then I just post the link and others can download the replay. | ||
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DojoJoe
Canada27 Posts
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Schnullerbacke13
Germany1199 Posts
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TangSC
Canada1852 Posts
On January 10 2012 08:08 DojoJoe wrote: Hey Tang, great guide! Just a quick fix on the OP. Step 32 of the guide says "By 11:00, we can start our 3rd and be up to 60 drones", should read 4th. I was also hoping you could get into a bit more detail from 7:15 onwards. I feel very comfortable up until that point by virtue of the level of detail given in the guide. I'd be curious to know the relative timings of when you get gas again, or put up those two evo chambers and your infestation pit. Say Terran hits back and delays the infestation pit past 11 minutes, what's it tied to strategy wise? Thanks again! Updated, thanks. There are a lot of options at the 7:15 mark, the infestor/ling/ultra transition was just one example. If you want to be relentless, you could leave drones in gas and just attack again with banelings too and "really" all-in. But if you do decide to play defensive/macro and you take your 3rd at 7:15, you should have some units left over and decent creep spread and map control/vision. Despite how the early game developed, you want to try to approach this as a standard mid-game. So after your first push, if you aren't 100% sure what your opponent is doing, you should be using all the scouting tactics you normally would (i.e. use your speedlings to scout the terran unit composition at his expansion, perhaps sac an overlord. In your scouting, you should be able to determine if he's going to push you or not and also whether he's going mech, marine-tank, or something goofy. Then, as soon as you see terran pushout, you have 3 hatcheries with 3 queens. Provided you aren't supply blocked and keep up with your larva injects, you have the ability to mass speedlings and any terran player will tell you it's pretty difficult to kill mass-ling styles with mid-game pushes. In terms of gas timings, generally you want to refill your gas shortly after you take a 3rd and start periodically adding gas as you approach perfect mineral saturation at your expansion (your main should be fully saturated already). In theory, you could do a spanishiwa-like style, it's really a matter of preference. Also, I think a lot of people don't realize that just because you build your geyser doesn't mean you have to mine the gas. There have been times where I start my extractors, they finish, and a terran timing push comes forcing me to build a lot of lings. It's a situation where I expected to be able to drone and afford to fill the gas with optimal mineral saturation, but because I wasn't able to produce those drones, I don't fill up the gas because the mineral saturation is more important in the early stages if you're doing a macro/mass-ling style. | ||
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gautamvirk86
India54 Posts
I love your build and it has helped me a lot in my Z v T, which "used" to be my weakest matchup, and please just ignore the haters, "cuz haters gonna hate". These are the same people who do 2 rax builds and cloak banshee builds and consider "8 roach 32 speedling" a CHEESE its all double standard They just expect zerg to just roll over and die and now that we have a complete counter build to any healion build or a banshee build they come back and call u a cheeser and 1 base all in'er, even thought you clearly open with an FE....i am starting to think people don't even bother reading what you post, but they just scroll down and call u a cheese master. Nothing but love for you Tang, next time if i am passing by your town, i'll buy you a coffee (ignore bad grammar ) | ||
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NoSlack
United States112 Posts
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