• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 15:17
CEST 21:17
KST 04:17
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
[ASL19] Finals Recap: Standing Tall9HomeStory Cup 27 - Info & Preview18Classic wins Code S Season 2 (2025)16Code S RO4 & Finals Preview: herO, Rogue, Classic, GuMiho0TL Team Map Contest #5: Presented by Monster Energy6
Community News
Flash Announces Hiatus From ASL56Weekly Cups (June 23-29): Reynor in world title form?13FEL Cracov 2025 (July 27) - $8000 live event19Esports World Cup 2025 - Final Player Roster16Weekly Cups (June 16-22): Clem strikes back1
StarCraft 2
General
Statistics for vetoed/disliked maps The SCII GOAT: A statistical Evaluation Weekly Cups (June 23-29): Reynor in world title form? PiG Sty Festival #5: Playoffs Preview + Groups Recap The GOAT ranking of GOAT rankings
Tourneys
FEL Cracov 2025 (July 27) - $8000 live event RSL: Revival, a new crowdfunded tournament series Korean Starcraft League Week 77 Master Swan Open (Global Bronze-Master 2) [GSL 2025] Code S: Season 2 - Semi Finals & Finals
Strategy
How did i lose this ZvP, whats the proper response Simple Questions Simple Answers
Custom Maps
[UMS] Zillion Zerglings
External Content
Mutation # 480 Moths to the Flame Mutation # 479 Worn Out Welcome Mutation # 478 Instant Karma Mutation # 477 Slow and Steady
Brood War
General
Flash Announces Hiatus From ASL Player “Jedi” cheat on CSL Replays question BW General Discussion BGH Auto Balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/
Tourneys
[Megathread] Daily Proleagues [BSL20] Grand Finals - Sunday 20:00 CET Small VOD Thread 2.0 [BSL20] GosuLeague RO16 - Tue & Wed 20:00+CET
Strategy
Simple Questions, Simple Answers I am doing this better than progamers do.
Other Games
General Games
Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Nintendo Switch Thread Path of Exile What do you want from future RTS games? Beyond All Reason
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Community Thread Vanilla Mini Mafia
Community
General
Russo-Ukrainian War Thread US Politics Mega-thread Trading/Investing Thread Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine The Games Industry And ATVI
Fan Clubs
SKT1 Classic Fan Club! Maru Fan Club
Media & Entertainment
Anime Discussion Thread [Manga] One Piece [\m/] Heavy Metal Thread
Sports
2024 - 2025 Football Thread Formula 1 Discussion NBA General Discussion TeamLiquid Health and Fitness Initiative For 2023 NHL Playoffs 2024
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread
TL Community
Blogs
Culture Clash in Video Games…
TrAiDoS
from making sc maps to makin…
Husyelt
Blog #2
tankgirl
StarCraft improvement
iopq
Trip to the Zoo
micronesia
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 627 users

[G] Zerg Guide to Macro-Aggression - Page 3

Forum Index > StarCraft 2 Strategy
Post a Reply
Prev 1 2 3 4 5 7 8 9 Next All
kushm4sta
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
United States8878 Posts
January 09 2012 15:40 GMT
#41
I don't understand what this post has to do with macro. I do not consider maximizing early game economy to rush to 28 drones as economy.
Also you never talk about getting to a maxed army, although you say you will talk about it. It's just countless little details about how to do your zvt cheese perfectly. The same cheese you already made a thread about.
OMGUS.net, kush sex blogs every friday night
TangSC
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
Canada1866 Posts
January 09 2012 15:43 GMT
#42
On January 10 2012 00:40 kushm4sta wrote:
I don't understand what this post has to do with macro. I do not consider maximizing early game economy to rush to 28 drones as economy.
Also you never talk about getting to a maxed army, although you say you will talk about it. It's just countless little details about how to do your zvt cheese perfectly. The same cheese you already made a thread about.

Maximizing early game economy is an extremely important part of macro. Please review "Step 3" - there's an example replay as well as pictures/analysis to show how you can open with the roach/ling and still move into a maxed army by 15:30.
Coaching www.allin-academy.com | Team www.All-Inspiration.com
eloist
Profile Joined September 2010
United States1017 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-01-09 15:49:43
January 09 2012 15:47 GMT
#43
I like your build order from an economics standpoint (8 roaches with no resources left over and at supply cap), however I think those roaches would be just a tiny bit too late to greet incoming hellions, wouldn't they?

Also, I think the 32 ling follow up is overkill. 8 roaches this early should be able to do enough damage by themselves to set the terran back while you drone. If a counter attack comes, I'd rather then make some lungs or more roaches after a round of drones.
Tobberoth
Profile Joined August 2010
Sweden6375 Posts
January 09 2012 15:57 GMT
#44
On January 10 2012 00:47 eloist wrote:
I like your build order from an economics standpoint (8 roaches with no resources left over and at supply cap), however I think those roaches would be just a tiny bit too late to greet incoming hellions, wouldn't they?

Also, I think the 32 ling follow up is overkill. 8 roaches this early should be able to do enough damage by themselves to set the terran back while you drone. If a counter attack comes, I'd rather then make some lungs or more roaches after a round of drones.

He already states in the guide that the roaches obviously won't come out before the initial hellions, there's NO possible way to have roaches at that point without doing severe cuts to your economy. The first hellions have to be held back by queens and spines and possibly lings, there's no alternative.
mrGRAPE
Profile Joined November 2011
Singapore293 Posts
January 09 2012 16:12 GMT
#45
On January 10 2012 00:47 eloist wrote:
I like your build order from an economics standpoint (8 roaches with no resources left over and at supply cap), however I think those roaches would be just a tiny bit too late to greet incoming hellions, wouldn't they?

Also, I think the 32 ling follow up is overkill. 8 roaches this early should be able to do enough damage by themselves to set the terran back while you drone. If a counter attack comes, I'd rather then make some lungs or more roaches after a round of drones.



You can try building a spine crawler at your natural close to the ramp preferably if you see hellions coming out from your opponent base with that scouting ling you had at his ramp. Sometimes this coincides perfectly with particular points in your build like if he goes for fast dual hellion harass, you can cut speed and instead spend that 100 minerals on the spine. Other times it doesn't coincide so well and I find that simply just blocking the ramp should do just fine. You don't absolutely have to build a spine crawler unless it's really early or there's more than hellions coming and your Terran buddy's going for early hellion / ling pressure.

It is also important that you put a tumor down in your base so you can link the creep from your main to your natural so that roaches can get there faster.
Starcraft 2 and eSports enthusiast. https://twitter.com/#!/mrGRAPETV | http://mrgrapetv.wordpress.com/
Asolmanx
Profile Joined April 2011
Italy141 Posts
January 09 2012 16:32 GMT
#46
I usually drone scout at 13 vs terran, and check if they go gas first. If they do, they are probably going for fast hellions or fast banshees, or any sort of crazy teching. If they aren't, i get the drone out before they wall it in, and check their ramp around 4:00 to check if there's a reactor on the barraks. I think that if you spot a reactor, you are assured to do damage with this build if your macro and micro is good enough.
You might not come out terribly ahead, you might even be behind after the push, but still you won't be anything close to game changing
Jitsu
Profile Blog Joined June 2011
United States929 Posts
January 09 2012 18:13 GMT
#47
Just did this opening vs. a Protoss. I outright won the game. I think there are a few points to come across with this.

First, you still have to look at the Zerg race a race that has the ability to change itself on a whim if need be. I think the biggest point to this is the way Zerg's learn how to play their race at the lower levels (build drones until you need to build units).

If the Protoss blocks you're expansion with a Pylon, you still have the ability to throw down a gas/pool before Hatch, which theoretically will work just as well. You might be a little late getting units out because of the lack of extra larvae production, but it's still feasible to pull early aggression off in this way.

Second, I think while this build is primarily used for ZvT, the general idea behind it can be associated to any matchup. I think the most important thing to realize is what timing you want to attack and what advantages you want to have at that time. It's important to note that, at any moment, Zerg can completely switch from building workers to building an army, and visa versa. That's why I think it's feasable for Zerg's to push pressure on without the particular attack being labeled an "all-in." Each race has the ability to produce an army quickly, given enough production facilities, but Zerg has the unique ability to completely saturate a base with workers quicker than the other two. I think the most important aspect of Zerg early pressure isn't necessarily how much damage you do onto you're opponent, it's more important to know when it's the right time to pull back - doing damage is good, but not wasting you're units is much better.

~Jitsu
Zerg Player in CheckMate Gaming - http://checkmategaming.webs.com/
vahgar.r24
Profile Joined October 2010
India465 Posts
January 09 2012 18:18 GMT
#48
Nice guide the pics are very useful , but would nice to see it being used against helion harass/2 rax pressure..
Somethings are just worth fighting for
BowzerOG
Profile Joined January 2012
1 Post
January 09 2012 18:39 GMT
#49
Thanks alot for another great guide Tang. I've been using the 3 stage timing attacks strategy on your website and have gotten to the point where i literally win +90% of my league games as zerg (I just started playing a few weeks ago and am in silver league)

I'm going to learn the other races before moving out of silver league and then revisit all your zerg guides most likely.
TangSC
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
Canada1866 Posts
January 09 2012 20:15 GMT
#50
On January 10 2012 01:32 Asolmanx wrote:
You might not come out terribly ahead, you might even be behind after the push, but still you won't be anything close to game changing

That's exactly it. It gives you a CHANCE to win the game, and a chance to put on pressure. There are VERY few circumstances where you will get 8 roaches to the terran base at 7:15 and do no damage - especially if you have zerglings as well. If they've taken an expansion, it's almost guaranteed that they will have to lift off for a while. At the same time, you're droning, teching, taking a 3rd and preparing for the mid-late game while terran's still focused on getting the units/tech they need to push down their own ramp.

Also, just with the way the metagame is, terran players are so used to being the aggressor early. These types of timing attacks can throw the terran player of their timings for the remainder of the game. They may forget upgrades, time their 3rd and additional structures poorly, etc. They may even interpret your aggression as an all-in and choose a course of actions that puts them behind you in a macro game.

They might think "This guy just tried to all-in me and failed, I'm going to do an improvised hellion/marine push and end it". Then they push out and are surprised to find out you have 3 hatcheries with a solid economy to pump out a sturdy roach/ling defense (which gives you ANOTHER opportunity to be aggressive once you kill their push).
Coaching www.allin-academy.com | Team www.All-Inspiration.com
1A.Browbeat
Profile Joined November 2011
Canada26 Posts
January 09 2012 20:30 GMT
#51
I really really like this build. I have been struggling to get into masters mostly because my ZvT was extremely weak. I am a zerg player who always favors low gas, high eco openings and it was giving me a lot of trouble vs terrran. I was switching things up, getting earlier gas, banelings, a quicker lair etc... I saw some improvement but still i was losing the longer games because 3-3 marines counter everything.

This is exactly the type of build I was looking for, because it has allowed me to take map control and momentum in the earlier part of the game when 6 hellions or so are usually denying me complete map vision.

well done. and thanks.

...
shadowxi
Profile Joined January 2012
Australia2 Posts
January 09 2012 20:53 GMT
#52
+1

Good read.
rustypipe
Profile Joined November 2010
Canada206 Posts
January 09 2012 21:04 GMT
#53
Working on getting some replays posted of it working out well and of counters of it but the place where I usally post sc2replayed.com is broken and wouldn't let me post the replays. Still working on it, i'll post as soon as I get a site that will upload the replays
The beatings will continue until moral improves!
NaumNaumers2
Profile Joined June 2011
4 Posts
January 09 2012 21:42 GMT
#54
It's an interesting read; very clear and concise in what it is trying to explain. I'll be practicing this and experimenting with it in Platinum in the upcoming weeks.
TangSC
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
Canada1866 Posts
January 09 2012 22:14 GMT
#55
On January 10 2012 06:04 rustypipe wrote:
Working on getting some replays posted of it working out well and of counters of it but the place where I usally post sc2replayed.com is broken and wouldn't let me post the replays. Still working on it, i'll post as soon as I get a site that will upload the replays

I'm working on allowing replay uploads on my website, that way anytime I post a strategy guide users can submit their own replays showing the strengths/weaknesses of the style. I use drop.sc, it's fast and easy. Then I just post the link and others can download the replay.
Coaching www.allin-academy.com | Team www.All-Inspiration.com
DojoJoe
Profile Joined May 2011
Canada28 Posts
January 09 2012 23:08 GMT
#56
Hey Tang, great guide! Just a quick fix on the OP. Step 32 of the guide says "By 11:00, we can start our 3rd and be up to 60 drones", should read 4th. I was also hoping you could get into a bit more detail from 7:15 onwards. I feel very comfortable up until that point by virtue of the level of detail given in the guide. I'd be curious to know the relative timings of when you get gas again, or put up those two evo chambers and your infestation pit. Say Terran hits back and delays the infestation pit past 11 minutes, what's it tied to strategy wise? Thanks again!
Spawn more overlords...
Schnullerbacke13
Profile Joined August 2010
Germany1199 Posts
January 10 2012 00:15 GMT
#57
wow, value post. well done, tang :D
21 is half the truth
TangSC
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
Canada1866 Posts
January 10 2012 05:26 GMT
#58
On January 10 2012 08:08 DojoJoe wrote:
Hey Tang, great guide! Just a quick fix on the OP. Step 32 of the guide says "By 11:00, we can start our 3rd and be up to 60 drones", should read 4th. I was also hoping you could get into a bit more detail from 7:15 onwards. I feel very comfortable up until that point by virtue of the level of detail given in the guide. I'd be curious to know the relative timings of when you get gas again, or put up those two evo chambers and your infestation pit. Say Terran hits back and delays the infestation pit past 11 minutes, what's it tied to strategy wise? Thanks again!

Updated, thanks.

There are a lot of options at the 7:15 mark, the infestor/ling/ultra transition was just one example. If you want to be relentless, you could leave drones in gas and just attack again with banelings too and "really" all-in. But if you do decide to play defensive/macro and you take your 3rd at 7:15, you should have some units left over and decent creep spread and map control/vision. Despite how the early game developed, you want to try to approach this as a standard mid-game. So after your first push, if you aren't 100% sure what your opponent is doing, you should be using all the scouting tactics you normally would (i.e. use your speedlings to scout the terran unit composition at his expansion, perhaps sac an overlord.

In your scouting, you should be able to determine if he's going to push you or not and also whether he's going mech, marine-tank, or something goofy. Then, as soon as you see terran pushout, you have 3 hatcheries with 3 queens. Provided you aren't supply blocked and keep up with your larva injects, you have the ability to mass speedlings and any terran player will tell you it's pretty difficult to kill mass-ling styles with mid-game pushes.

In terms of gas timings, generally you want to refill your gas shortly after you take a 3rd and start periodically adding gas as you approach perfect mineral saturation at your expansion (your main should be fully saturated already). In theory, you could do a spanishiwa-like style, it's really a matter of preference. Also, I think a lot of people don't realize that just because you build your geyser doesn't mean you have to mine the gas. There have been times where I start my extractors, they finish, and a terran timing push comes forcing me to build a lot of lings. It's a situation where I expected to be able to drone and afford to fill the gas with optimal mineral saturation, but because I wasn't able to produce those drones, I don't fill up the gas because the mineral saturation is more important in the early stages if you're doing a macro/mass-ling style.
Coaching www.allin-academy.com | Team www.All-Inspiration.com
gautamvirk86
Profile Joined August 2010
India55 Posts
January 10 2012 06:28 GMT
#59
Mr Tang,

I love your build and it has helped me a lot in my Z v T, which "used" to be my weakest matchup, and please just ignore the haters, "cuz haters gonna hate".
These are the same people who do 2 rax builds and cloak banshee builds and consider "8 roach 32 speedling" a CHEESE
its all double standard
They just expect zerg to just roll over and die and now that we have a complete counter build to any healion build or a banshee build they come back and call u a cheeser and 1 base all in'er, even thought you clearly open with an FE....i am starting to think people don't even bother reading what you post, but they just scroll down and call u a cheese master.

Nothing but love for you Tang, next time if i am passing by your town, i'll buy you a coffee

(ignore bad grammar )
"Hopefully you're not the real TLO so it's not casted" - SpecialK
NoSlack
Profile Joined November 2010
United States112 Posts
January 10 2012 06:31 GMT
#60
Thanks for taking the time to put this together. As far as the haters, they appear to all be terran.
Prev 1 2 3 4 5 7 8 9 Next All
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
FEL
16:00
Cracov 2025: Qualifier #1
RotterdaM825
IndyStarCraft 281
CranKy Ducklings212
Liquipedia
PSISTORM Gaming Misc
15:55
FSL team league: ASP vs PTB
Freeedom9
Liquipedia
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
RotterdaM 825
IndyStarCraft 281
JuggernautJason82
ProTech60
StarCraft: Brood War
Calm 4614
firebathero 298
JulyZerg 133
BRAT_OK 95
Rock 38
LancerX 14
Stormgate
Nathanias44
Dota 2
monkeys_forever211
LuMiX1
League of Legends
Grubby2300
Dendi1486
Counter-Strike
fl0m1952
Super Smash Bros
Westballz39
Heroes of the Storm
Khaldor330
Liquid`Hasu281
Other Games
FrodaN1489
Mlord584
KnowMe128
Trikslyr46
Sick45
Organizations
Other Games
EGCTV1382
StarCraft 2
angryscii 17
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 24 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• Berry_CruncH71
• printf 70
• tFFMrPink 24
• iHatsuTV 9
• OhrlRock 3
• Kozan
• Migwel
• sooper7s
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• IndyKCrew
• LaughNgamezSOOP
StarCraft: Brood War
• Azhi_Dahaki30
• Pr0nogo 2
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
• BSLYoutube
Dota 2
• masondota2820
• WagamamaTV663
• Ler97
League of Legends
• Jankos1813
• Doublelift1602
Other Games
• imaqtpie966
• Shiphtur491
Upcoming Events
RSL Revival
14h 44m
Clem vs Classic
SHIN vs Cure
FEL
16h 44m
WardiTV European League
16h 44m
BSL: ProLeague
22h 44m
Dewalt vs Bonyth
Replay Cast
2 days
Sparkling Tuna Cup
2 days
WardiTV European League
2 days
The PondCast
3 days
Replay Cast
4 days
RSL Revival
4 days
[ Show More ]
Replay Cast
5 days
RSL Revival
5 days
FEL
5 days
RSL Revival
6 days
FEL
6 days
FEL
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

BSL 2v2 Season 3
HSC XXVII
Heroes 10 EU

Ongoing

JPL Season 2
BSL Season 20
Acropolis #3
KCM Race Survival 2025 Season 2
CSL 17: 2025 SUMMER
Copa Latinoamericana 4
Championship of Russia 2025
RSL Revival: Season 1
Murky Cup #2
BLAST.tv Austin Major 2025
ESL Impact League Season 7
IEM Dallas 2025
PGL Astana 2025
Asian Champions League '25
BLAST Rivals Spring 2025
MESA Nomadic Masters
CCT Season 2 Global Finals
IEM Melbourne 2025

Upcoming

2025 ACS Season 2: Qualifier
CSLPRO Last Chance 2025
2025 ACS Season 2
CSLPRO Chat StarLAN 3
K-Championship
uThermal 2v2 Main Event
SEL Season 2 Championship
FEL Cracov 2025
Esports World Cup 2025
StarSeries Fall 2025
FISSURE Playground #2
BLAST Open Fall 2025
BLAST Open Fall Qual
Esports World Cup 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall Qual
IEM Cologne 2025
FISSURE Playground #1
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2025 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.