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On January 09 2012 22:59 ReachTheSky wrote:Show nested quote +On January 08 2012 23:06 Micket wrote:On January 08 2012 22:07 ReachTheSky wrote:so i watched the daily for this build. I come to realized this is the most greedy "economic cheese" there is, maybe aside from cc first. If the zerg drone scouts you will literally die to any amount of roaches. Any type of all in will beat this build right away. I personally don't think its safe at all vs anything  . That bunker will do nothing. Sure this build can be amazing, but only if your opponent doesn't drone scout lol. Marineking held off a roach baneling all in without a bunker without a wall off, whilst going triple orbital opening, with the cc at his third. You need fantastic micro. Btw, marineking barely lost any scvs to this and only a handful of marines. Ok your right about that. But that all in came muuuuch later i feel. A zerg who drone scouts could start prepping for the all in the second they recognize the timings of the terran buildings.... Then what is a terran to do? 2 marines> roaches? i don't think so. Those 2-4 hellions are also going to be very flimsy.
? This looks like any Reactor Hellion opening. The Zerg has no way to know with drone scout that you will go fast third. If you make your third CC in base, only an Overlord sacrifice may see it, and you can deny it with proper Marine spread at the edges of your base.
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Reactor hellion openings with walloff are such murder, Jjakji seems to do them all the time but you can basically follow it up into anything, just 4 hellions into quick MM push, mass hellion blueflame, quick 3 CC, fast medivac + tank, cloak banshee followup etc.
Zerg can only hope to get a drone in on time, for which they have to be really quick as you can walloff very fast with this build, and when they do the only relevant thing they can basically see is the 2nd gas being taken quickly or not before the marine kills off the drone. Consistently opening this way every time for terran and then rolling a dice on either macro play or one of the various pressure builds is insanely hard for zerg to stop on some of the maps where early overlord scouting is just not possible (basically any cross position spawn or large 2p map). Drone too heavy or miss the right answer (spores for banshee, roach for mass helion or enough bane/ling for MMM) and you lose to a push, drone too light and you can be far behind against the triple CC.
I feel that in some point of time orbital has to be changed so it can't lift anymore. In base expanding makes the game too much of gamble most of the time, I feel that pro level TvZ comes down to build order wins too often. Z guesses the T opening or gets a lucky overlord through and is ahead or misreads and is behind against some timing or greedy build. T builds like this one just differentiate so late that it's total frustation playing against them given how many options T has.
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Hello again!
I've tried it now several times and I can see the points of how it will work.
Of course like wiseman Yoshi said nobody cares about a masterleague player's input but I think you are wrong there.
I rarely think any pro's would watch the Strategy forum at TL; this forum is here so that people can get better and improve by trying things out and tell their opinions and experiences about it. The same thing follows because master league play ain't the same as proplay, that's why pro replays rarely work in your league because you will almost never be put in the same scenario since the play differs so much. Altough you can learn alot from pro replays like timings build, micro, placement, strategies etc but you can't copy it becuase every game is different.
Anyway, it works very well if the zerg is playing passive, and not gathering information, like denying the zerg from seeing your third is really great because then he will not know if he should take a third safely or put pressure on.
Your push will be strong enough to whipe out his 3rd and do high economic damage by killing drones and forcing larvae to be used on army instead of drones.
Mostly I have troubles playing against infestors, this build, to me, is more focused on mutabased play and if the Zerg is too greedy you will whipe him out completly.
The problem is a zerg that is scouting alot and blindly making units or just in fear, rush down a certain techpath, the easy thing to really deny this build is to mass spread creep all over the place and put out several suicide lings all around the map, the creepspread will allow the Z to flank your marching army in lots of different positions and if you get caught with your pants down (tanks unsieged) you will practically lose because your third and natural, even when defended by a couple of rines and siege tanks will easily get overrun by Lings and Mutas will be able to harass those "unturreted" areas.
Good writeup/review indeed! +1 (y)
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Bah, I don't need this.
2-Rax all the way! >
But I appreciate you saving me the time to watch the whole daily
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On January 10 2012 00:37 KaiserIV wrote:
Hello again!
I've tried it now several times and I can see the points of how it will work.
Of course like wiseman Yoshi said nobody cares about a masterleague player's input but I think you are wrong there.
I rarely think any pro's would watch the Strategy forum at TL; this forum is here so that people can get better and improve by trying things out and tell their opinions and experiences about it. The same thing follows because master league play ain't the same as proplay, that's why pro replays rarely work in your league because you will almost never be put in the same scenario since the play differs so much. Altough you can learn alot from pro replays like timings build, micro, placement, strategies etc but you can't copy it becuase every game is different.
Anyway, it works very well if the zerg is playing passive, and not gathering information, like denying the zerg from seeing your third is really great because then he will not know if he should take a third safely or put pressure on.
Your push will be strong enough to whipe out his 3rd and do high economic damage by killing drones and forcing larvae to be used on army instead of drones.
Mostly I have troubles playing against infestors, this build, to me, is more focused on mutabased play and if the Zerg is too greedy you will whipe him out completly.
The problem is a zerg that is scouting alot and blindly making units or just in fear, rush down a certain techpath, the easy thing to really deny this build is to mass spread creep all over the place and put out several suicide lings all around the map, the creepspread will allow the Z to flank your marching army in lots of different positions and if you get caught with your pants down (tanks unsieged) you will practically lose because your third and natural, even when defended by a couple of rines and siege tanks will easily get overrun by Lings and Mutas will be able to harass those "unturreted" areas.
Good writeup/review indeed! +1 (y)
Hmm... I should probably add to the OP that this playstyle is meant to play against the Mutalisk style that Korean Zergs like to do. Thanks for the compliment and input!
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On January 10 2012 00:37 KaiserIV wrote:
Hello again!
I've tried it now several times and I can see the points of how it will work.
Of course like wiseman Yoshi said nobody cares about a masterleague player's input but I think you are wrong there.
I rarely think any pro's would watch the Strategy forum at TL; this forum is here so that people can get better and improve by trying things out and tell their opinions and experiences about it. The same thing follows because master league play ain't the same as proplay, that's why pro replays rarely work in your league because you will almost never be put in the same scenario since the play differs so much. Altough you can learn alot from pro replays like timings build, micro, placement, strategies etc but you can't copy it becuase every game is different.
Anyway, it works very well if the zerg is playing passive, and not gathering information, like denying the zerg from seeing your third is really great because then he will not know if he should take a third safely or put pressure on.
Your push will be strong enough to whipe out his 3rd and do high economic damage by killing drones and forcing larvae to be used on army instead of drones.
Mostly I have troubles playing against infestors, this build, to me, is more focused on mutabased play and if the Zerg is too greedy you will whipe him out completly.
The problem is a zerg that is scouting alot and blindly making units or just in fear, rush down a certain techpath, the easy thing to really deny this build is to mass spread creep all over the place and put out several suicide lings all around the map, the creepspread will allow the Z to flank your marching army in lots of different positions and if you get caught with your pants down (tanks unsieged) you will practically lose because your third and natural, even when defended by a couple of rines and siege tanks will easily get overrun by Lings and Mutas will be able to harass those "unturreted" areas.
Good writeup/review indeed! +1 (y)
I've had trouble too, But i've just preemptively split my marines but hey, Im just a Diamond noob
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Builds seems way too passive. Sure, top top level pros such as Bomber and MVP might be able to deal with late game zerg units but they also have some of the best micro and mechanics in the game. Infestor/Brood/Ultra is still as hard as hell to deal with and favors the zerg unless you have godlike control.
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As a student also working part time I really like this because it gets the daily into something that can be read without the one hour investment.
And also done in class 
In terms of my own personal experience with the build I find that if the zerg figures out what I am doing they just take a tonne of expansions and tech faster than I can deal with.
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On January 09 2012 23:05 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On January 09 2012 22:59 ReachTheSky wrote:On January 08 2012 23:06 Micket wrote:On January 08 2012 22:07 ReachTheSky wrote:so i watched the daily for this build. I come to realized this is the most greedy "economic cheese" there is, maybe aside from cc first. If the zerg drone scouts you will literally die to any amount of roaches. Any type of all in will beat this build right away. I personally don't think its safe at all vs anything . That bunker will do nothing. Sure this build can be amazing, but only if your opponent doesn't drone scout lol. Marineking held off a roach baneling all in without a bunker without a wall off, whilst going triple orbital opening, with the cc at his third. You need fantastic micro. Btw, marineking barely lost any scvs to this and only a handful of marines. Ok your right about that. But that all in came muuuuch later i feel. A zerg who drone scouts could start prepping for the all in the second they recognize the timings of the terran buildings.... Then what is a terran to do? 2 marines> roaches? i don't think so. Those 2-4 hellions are also going to be very flimsy. ? This looks like any Reactor Hellion opening. The Zerg has no way to know with drone scout that you will go fast third. If you make your third CC in base, only an Overlord sacrifice may see it, and you can deny it with proper Marine spread at the edges of your base.
You are wrong. Do you notice the gas timing for this opening? Zergs know the standard timing for gas. They can also click the geyser to see how much was mined. Its really easy to use this information to come up with a conclusion as to what ur opponent is up to, especially with this thread being out.
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Hi guys,
Thanks to the OP for the nice guide. I am currently learning this build and it worked well a few times. However, like a few people mentioned before, early Zerg agression seems to be problematic to me. Early Roach agression killed me a couple of times. In the most recent game I had a bunker and about 4 helions (but some were outside of base) and he crushed me.
Any tips on how to defend myself in such case? Right now my plan is to simply do a better job scouting and if I see an early Roach Den, get an additional bunker and get sieged tanks faster in place of the helions but I would welcome others' opinions. Should I forget tanks and churn out Reactor Helion + Marauder instead?
cheers
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On January 25 2012 09:16 ReachTheSky wrote:Show nested quote +On January 09 2012 23:05 TheDwf wrote:On January 09 2012 22:59 ReachTheSky wrote:On January 08 2012 23:06 Micket wrote:On January 08 2012 22:07 ReachTheSky wrote:so i watched the daily for this build. I come to realized this is the most greedy "economic cheese" there is, maybe aside from cc first. If the zerg drone scouts you will literally die to any amount of roaches. Any type of all in will beat this build right away. I personally don't think its safe at all vs anything . That bunker will do nothing. Sure this build can be amazing, but only if your opponent doesn't drone scout lol. Marineking held off a roach baneling all in without a bunker without a wall off, whilst going triple orbital opening, with the cc at his third. You need fantastic micro. Btw, marineking barely lost any scvs to this and only a handful of marines. Ok your right about that. But that all in came muuuuch later i feel. A zerg who drone scouts could start prepping for the all in the second they recognize the timings of the terran buildings.... Then what is a terran to do? 2 marines> roaches? i don't think so. Those 2-4 hellions are also going to be very flimsy. ? This looks like any Reactor Hellion opening. The Zerg has no way to know with drone scout that you will go fast third. If you make your third CC in base, only an Overlord sacrifice may see it, and you can deny it with proper Marine spread at the edges of your base. You are wrong. Do you notice the gas timing for this opening? Zergs know the standard timing for gas. They can also click the geyser to see how much was mined. Its really easy to use this information to come up with a conclusion as to what ur opponent is up to, especially with this thread being out.
What are you talking about? Gas timing has absolutely nothing to do with dual expand or not. First, you can go dual expand after Reactor Hellion with the standard 13 gas; and second, if you go for some kind of delayed Reactor Hellion play off 1 rax FE, à la Thorzain, this does not automatically mean dual expand, so I don't see your point, really.
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On January 25 2012 09:16 ReachTheSky wrote:Show nested quote +On January 09 2012 23:05 TheDwf wrote:On January 09 2012 22:59 ReachTheSky wrote:On January 08 2012 23:06 Micket wrote:On January 08 2012 22:07 ReachTheSky wrote:so i watched the daily for this build. I come to realized this is the most greedy "economic cheese" there is, maybe aside from cc first. If the zerg drone scouts you will literally die to any amount of roaches. Any type of all in will beat this build right away. I personally don't think its safe at all vs anything . That bunker will do nothing. Sure this build can be amazing, but only if your opponent doesn't drone scout lol. Marineking held off a roach baneling all in without a bunker without a wall off, whilst going triple orbital opening, with the cc at his third. You need fantastic micro. Btw, marineking barely lost any scvs to this and only a handful of marines. Ok your right about that. But that all in came muuuuch later i feel. A zerg who drone scouts could start prepping for the all in the second they recognize the timings of the terran buildings.... Then what is a terran to do? 2 marines> roaches? i don't think so. Those 2-4 hellions are also going to be very flimsy. ? This looks like any Reactor Hellion opening. The Zerg has no way to know with drone scout that you will go fast third. If you make your third CC in base, only an Overlord sacrifice may see it, and you can deny it with proper Marine spread at the edges of your base. You are wrong. Do you notice the gas timing for this opening? Zergs know the standard timing for gas. They can also click the geyser to see how much was mined. Its really easy to use this information to come up with a conclusion as to what ur opponent is up to, especially with this thread being out.
you guys are using
12rax15oc15gas _delayed_ reactor hellion which zerg can tell is a delayed gas (durr, no gas), which apparently gets the 3rd CC ~6 minutes
but day9 has said quote: "we could have slightly different openings!" (part 3) (referring to different gas timings, if we want to get hellions quicker/etc)
==================
Edit:
Game 1: 12rax15OC15gas
Game 2: 12rax15OC15gas
Game 3: 12rax14gas15OC
====================
EDIT 2:
GSTL IM vs TSL spoiler
+ Show Spoiler +
12rax13gas15OC
Regular Reactor hellion expand
gets 3rd CC at 6 minutes as well
so yes.
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bomber has a mass marine build for TvZ as well and he is pretty successful with it as well. seen it on his stream!!!
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On February 05 2012 20:40 littlemozart7 wrote:
bomber has a mass marine build for TvZ as well and he is pretty successful with it as well. seen it on his stream!!!
I think I've seen what you're talking about but actually I saw forGG do that (never saw bomber do it) but ok
it's like 1rax fe -> 3 rax -> 5rax -> get a quick 3rd CC -> 7rax (constant pressure throughout) -> 2 gas, get upgrades/etc [not entirely sure, from memory]
is that the one you're talking about?
erm... well...But really though this isn't the topic for that
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Really awesome writeup! This build has brought me a good amount of success, though I'll still have issues against a zerg who's already got hive tech units by the time I move out. I probably just need more practice against it, but it's definitely hard to deal with broodlords without ghosts and/or vikings.
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On February 16 2012 14:09 SiegeFlank wrote:
Really awesome writeup! This build has brought me a good amount of success, though I'll still have issues against a zerg who's already got hive tech units by the time I move out. I probably just need more practice against it, but it's definitely hard to deal with broodlords without ghosts and/or vikings.
I guess around when you're doing the +2/+1 bio and +1 mech .... or ~ half way through that, perhaps (ok I'm theorycrafting), scan to see if they have broodlords, so you can shift the build to go for quicker ghosts, or a 2nd starport for vikings?
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EPT
