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On December 26 2011 14:57 zimo.j wrote:
2-Rax can hold pretty much every 1-base Protoss strategy besides a void-ray all-in since you don't have enough Marines early enough to hold it. With a bunker it can hold a 4-gate, although maybe not as well as a 1 Rax FE.
did i read that wrong? 1 rax expand holds 4 gate better than 2 rax expand? I feel this is incorrect.....4 gate comes sooner, it is like at 5 min mark...
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Pushing when the 1st marauder pops is wrong. the correct timing is when u have 3 marauders + ~ 10 marines. and u are supposed to bring a couple of scvs. U should have enough money for a CC on your way to his base. And this move is only supposed to work against 1 gate expos or nexus 1st - it allows u to punish fast expanding protosses while taking your own expo safely. If the protoss 1 base, do not push. Sit back, scout for tech, and defend ur expo. U will still be ahead of him anyway if u hold since your expo is earlier than his.
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If they are 1 basing just get medivacs even before expanding. If they continue to all-in, you can kill them with stim and medivacs. If they only 1 base for a very short time, expand and quickly tech to colo/HT they might be safe, but then in that case you are free to take your expansion as well.
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On December 28 2011 18:01 Clazziquai10 wrote:
Pushing when the 1st marauder pops is wrong. the correct timing is when u have 3 marauders + ~ 10 marines. and u are supposed to bring a couple of scvs. U should have enough money for a CC on your way to his base. And this move is only supposed to work against 1 gate expos or nexus 1st - it allows u to punish fast expanding protosses while taking your own expo safely. If the protoss 1 base, do not push. Sit back, scout for tech, and defend ur expo. U will still be ahead of him anyway if u hold since your expo is earlier than his.
Wrong? Based on what?
It depends on what your opponent is doing of course, but there is very little reason not to be out on the field when you have conc shell upgraded, what can possibly go wrong? If you are lucky you might get a free stalker.
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On December 28 2011 17:34 thesums wrote:
did i read that wrong? 1 rax expand holds 4 gate better than 2 rax expand? I feel this is incorrect.....4 gate comes sooner, it is like at 5 min mark...
Fastest 4 gates come around 5.40-50, first warpin 5.30-40
1 Rax expand into 4 rax can't die to 4 gate since you have 2 bunkers full of marines.
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I was thinking about 2 rax (reactor first, then tech lab) and just getting out one marauder and then sticking to marines for a while.
Thorzains FE in TLS3 relied heavily on marines early and I think that they are just better for defending. Marauders are good if you are trying to be aggressive, but when defending, marines in bunkers will do well. Also that makes you safer against Void ray all ins. Also marines come more often so it might be safer. You will also be spending less minerals and gas so you can get a faster expansion and faster upgrades.
This seems safer than a 1 rax expand, but less agressive than 2 rax with constant marauder. Does this seem good or should I be leaning more towards early greed or early aggression (1 rax fe or 2 rax fe)?
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1)What would a correct follow up if protoss holds off my pressure by rushing out an immortal? (He cancels nexus)
I keep dying to a counter all in from protoss using 2 rax pressure
2)What if I cant deal enough damage to toss and fails to kill his nexus? Wouldnt I be behind in tech?
Thanks!
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Kas and Thorzain's 2 rax opening both attack as soon as the first marauder pops. Conc shells finishes as you get there and you start engaging. Thorzains given reasoning on his stream is that "if properly executed, no 1 gate FE variant should be able to stop this 2 rax" (paraphrasing a little here)
There is a second 2 rax variant where you wait for combat shields. Not 100% on that one.
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On January 02 2012 15:30 iaguz wrote:
Kas and Thorzain's 2 rax opening both attack as soon as the first marauder pops. Conc shells finishes as you get there and you start engaging. Thorzains given reasoning on his stream is that "if properly executed, no 1 gate FE variant should be able to stop this 2 rax" (paraphrasing a little here)
There is a second 2 rax variant where you wait for combat shields. Not 100% on that one.
This build was very good when thorzain did it, however the 5 second rax build time nerf was a huge blow to this build, it basically means that even a 1 gate fe protoss can warp in units as you arrive at his base, and you have no window to do damage. The build is still viable, but don't expect to do damage on any map larger then xel naga, and even then its unlikely.
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I'm referring to Thorzains streaming during December. I think the rax nerf didnt' affect his thinking.
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On December 29 2011 05:49 zezamer wrote:Show nested quote +On December 28 2011 17:34 thesums wrote:
did i read that wrong? 1 rax expand holds 4 gate better than 2 rax expand? I feel this is incorrect.....4 gate comes sooner, it is like at 5 min mark... Fastest 4 gates come around 5.40-50, first warpin 5.30-40 1 Rax expand into 4 rax can't die to 4 gate since you have 2 bunkers full of marines.
theres a new variation, protoss start playing 10 gate into 3gate stalker with all but 1 chrono on warpgate. it hits when u have about 6 marines out with 4 stalkers.
2rax makes you safe against most protoss allins. ur safe against blinkstalker allin due to fast stim and maurauders. safe against voidrays because many marines from reaktor. other 1 base is crap.
if u play against 4gate and do it right u win with 2rax. but you have to be out on the map, catch his army and kill the probe(s)
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im trying to think of a build that beats 2 rax plus mass bunkers that is 1 base... its kinda hard tbh man.
2 rax can make reapers to scout and scans at proper moments reveal all. once you know you can then add bunkers and more rax/get medivacs faster. 2 rax is safe
4 gate when scouted cannot beat 2 rax
void ray cannot beat it when scouted
immortals cannot beat it when scouted
sentry 4 gate cannot beat anything thats up a ramp and then you get stim/medivac and its over
i think if a terran is losing to a 1 base unlike other races its because of lack of scouted/prep. this is comming from a multi racer all of which are high masters
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On December 29 2011 05:49 zezamer wrote:Show nested quote +On December 28 2011 17:34 thesums wrote:
did i read that wrong? 1 rax expand holds 4 gate better than 2 rax expand? I feel this is incorrect.....4 gate comes sooner, it is like at 5 min mark... Fastest 4 gates come around 5.40-50, first warpin 5.30-40 1 Rax expand into 4 rax can't die to 4 gate since you have 2 bunkers full of marines.
Hmmm that is like no tech. I myself do the marauder expand but I say 2 rax expand holds 4 gate easier. And after I defend it, I can punish it easier, with medivacs and stim and it is GG. I do the marauder expand, to 2 more rax and starport tech for any of these Protoss builds, with quick ebay for upgrades and DTs.
I think 2 rax expand is hard counter vs 4 gate. I mean you can also build bunkers with 2 rax. I do not like 1 rax gasless sometimes, because early pressure can sometimes hurt, like the 1 base immortal sentry all in....eww. It will kill you without stim, if you do not play very well.
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Pushing out as soon as first marauder has been common for ages - conc shells finishes around halfway across the map, you can take map control and deny him any early pressure from zealot / stalker. This is even how BoxeR did / does it. No idea why people think waiting for 2 marauders is better... the Protoss will 100% have more than one forcefield for ramp unless he's being greedy on gas, or can just spam stalkers and micro to kill your stuff.
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I just want to add that bomber often pushes when the first marauder pops, and I like to do it too. (Though you should only care that bomber does it).
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I do this build like 90 percent of my tvps, and when you see them one basing i think its best to add a gas and factory and tech to medivacs on one base, stay on 2 barracks pumping units and get stim and go for a second timing. Your cc is really late but if he expanded you ahve a good chance of killing him and if he didnt your safe vs pretty much anything.
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Don't push out if they aren't expanding, be willing to sacrifice multiple SCVs to make sure of that fact, get both your gas right away, go marine heavy from this point. Without cutting any marines, tart engineering bay + factory when you can, the gas should be prioritized for stim > starport > combat shield > +1.
The problem is you never know which all in the protoss is doing, so build a turret at your ramp, and unless the protoss did some kind of really stupid 1 base colossus you should be able to hold just fine, and when the protoss expands, he will have a tough time holding stim mm + medevac and +1.
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On December 26 2011 16:35 SKTerran.117 wrote:
if protoss doesn't have a nexus going by the time I get to his base with 2 racks pressure, I add a 3rd racks and a factory as well as take my 2nd gas
I generally just prep to defend w/e weird all in he is planning and if he backs out and trys to just expand I all in and kill him with MMM+scvs
they go 1 gate robo, scout you, go 1 base collosus, hit 3 collosus by the time your starport could make 3 units
alternatively, they could 'back out and expand' while doing this, and 2 collo+bunch of units will hold any mmm+scv allin
against anything other than collosus this response would, 'work', i suppose. i think against a late P expand 2 rax excels without needing to allin because you can get fast medivacs and harass
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On February 17 2012 23:58 Notaa wrote:
Don't push out if they aren't expanding, be willing to sacrifice multiple SCVs to make sure of that fact, get both your gas right away, go marine heavy from this point. Without cutting any marines, tart engineering bay + factory when you can, the gas should be prioritized for stim > starport > combat shield > +1.
The problem is you never know which all in the protoss is doing, so build a turret at your ramp, and unless the protoss did some kind of really stupid 1 base colossus you should be able to hold just fine, and when the protoss expands, he will have a tough time holding stim mm + medevac and +1.
1 base collosus is the safest build vs a 1 basing terran for this reason. it also crushes 3rax and 1-1-1. i dont see how you could call it stupid 
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http://blip.tv/day9tv/day-9-daily-416-p2-marineking-vs-white-ra-2rax-opening-5947484
I am a low level player but the way day[9] seems to explain this build attacking with 1 marauder is the correct way to play. This is because the constant unit trade-off forces them to make units instead of tech and makes you stronger once you get medivacs out. In the above video we see VileIllusion destroy some protoss using this strategy.
Unfortunately at my level the macro tends to slip while there is constant engagement going on so it doesn't really work for me at the moment.
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EPT
