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Hello there! How is your Christmas? Nevermind that..we have important business to discuss!
Alright, I will not be submitting a replay, but that is because I know there are SO many things I could do better. I just have a theoretical question. I was wondering who to ask and thought the scholars on this website would be ideal!
I play Terran. I was wanting to try the 2 rax that is semi-famous right now. The thing is, it feels good if they early expand, but what do people do if the Protoss one bases? Do people still expand? It feels like the 2 rax expand is weaker against a one base than a 1 rax epand because you have less time to get all those rax up.
So how do people feel?
Is 2 rax generally considered safe against 1 basing Protoss?
Do players still expand if the Protoss doesn't? Or do they put down more rax or factory instead?
I'll make a graph to illustrate my feelings.
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/zyBHH.png)
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Cute graphs bro. Try winning instead of playing in Paint.
User was temp banned for this post.
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In my opinion, if your going against a void-ray + 3gates, this could be a bad build because when you push (5marine~ and 1 marauder), I believe the timing is by the time you get to their base, their first void is out, and they can ff the ramp. And since its a one base all in, they should have a easy time chasing your units down and counter-attacking for the win. Against 4-gate, as long as your not trapped in your base when they attack and you get stim instead of concussive shells (usually, you should be able to scout if their 4gating) you will have a easy time vs a 4gate. Again, this is just in my (rather limited) experience with 2rax.
However, the main thing is that because 2rax can be defended by a 1-gate fe toss, its probably way easier off 1 base.
Edit: If you can expand safely, its probably the better choice, as you can add on even more rax/infrastructure after.
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Another concept that may be worth considering is something I do sometimes vs strong early game pressure, as toss. Its a well known fact that T can support 3 rax with addons off 1 base, however if your 3rd rax is delayed then you can get some money built up where you are only producing off 2 (and will continue to build up while you are building them as well). So what I am suggesting is it MAY be helpful to drop an extra 2 naked rax instead of a CC, and you should have enough to drop a CC just before you are able to start production off those extra 2 (naked) rax. It just means your army value hits weird offtimings, even though your expo is a little delayed, and it may be helpful :D just food for thought
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Your graph is actually spot-on and shows your understanding of the build and its trade-offs.
On December 26 2011 13:30 Carmine wrote:
Is 2 rax generally considered safe against 1 basing Protoss?
2-Rax can hold pretty much every 1-base Protoss strategy besides a void-ray all-in since you don't have enough Marines early enough to hold it. With a bunker it can hold a 4-gate, although maybe not as well as a 1 Rax FE.
On December 26 2011 13:30 Carmine wrote:
Do players still expand if the Protoss doesn't? Or do they put down more rax or factory instead?
That all depends. I'm assuming you are scouting and with the early Marauder push you can get even more info. If the Protoss doesn't expand and is going for a 3 Gate-Robo all-in, Immortal bust then you have a little bit of time; throw down a CC in-base and bunker up. If you hold it you win. If you scout DTs incoming then get a Turret and expand.
Same goes for scouting a FE. If you think you can take a greedy Protoss throw 2 more naked Rax down and push push push!
You understand that the build is better in some circumstances, but it can be adapted as well, the same as most any other build.
EDIT: removed quoted images.
EDIT 2: fixed typo
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Just learn to cut your losses before the protoss realizes what you're doing. The 2nd rax does allow you extra marines to pressure with, but each marine is -50 marines towards your cc. If you know you have absolutely no chance of doing any damage without incurring severe losses yourself, just stop production for like 30 seconds, build a cc, then resume production. Scan around the 6minute mark too to see what kind of 1base he is going for. Most 1base protoss builds, barring collosi builds, can be held off with bunkers, repair, and marines.
Just because you went 2rax doesn't mean you actually have to go through with it.
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I assume you're talking about the new-ish TvZesque 2 rax in TvP? The answer is always the same no matter what you're doing, if you're being all-inned, all you have to do is hold, so you probably should avoid expanding. There aren't a lot of 1 base protoss opens that transition well into an expand imo, so holding should at least put you a little ahead. Of course, my TvP sucks because I always try to expand regardless. I think if you put down 2 more rax naked, get a relatively late CC in base, then focus on holding and delay tech (get stim etc., but maybe forgo medivacs) you could hold most one base plays, except the old school one base colossus. Then again if he one base colossuses you, you would have time to get up an expo and lay down some barracks while teching straight to vikes even after a 2 rax, but it would be a close shave... Some all-ins/one base plays you could probably hold after a 2 rax if you prioritize bunkers asap, but of course, that puts you much further behind if he, say, 3 gate robos then decides to not attack you...
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2rax with reactor first (best way) is inherently safer against any 1base then a faster expand since those 1 base attacks with the possible exception of a late immortal all in, all come before your expansion would be really kicking in anyway, thus you will have more units to defend any aggression. The problem comes from people with 2 raxes feeling that because they 2raxd they MUST deal damage so they lose a bunch of units trying to attack up the ramp (never do this against protoss unless they have no sentries) and then they die to a counter attack. Against a later immortal all-in then yeah your graph is roughly accurate.
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Thanks for your help so far everyone. You may continue to discuss if you want but I am feeling a lot more comfortable with it now.
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2 Rax is a good opening but like some posters here said 3 gate Voidray is a very popular and very difficult all-in to hold with it. This is one of the reasons I don't like to use it anymore. Also, oftentimes it seems like the Protoss has enough units to defend your 2 marauder/marine push if they go 1 gate expo, or they even crush it.
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with the initial push you must know when to leave and back off. send 1 marine up the ramp and make him use a forcefield. i like to bring an scv or two and tank zealot damage. if you can snipe a pylon or kill some probes, great. but if can't then back off, make some bunkers and continue macroing. do not lose all of the units in this attack or you'll be so far behind.
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United Kingdom20297 Posts
On December 26 2011 13:46 TripleOSeven wrote:
However, the main thing is that because 2rax can be defended by a 1-gate fe toss, its probably way easier off 1 base.
Thats not really true, of course you have the ramp etc, but you still only have the same amount of units before the warpgate timing, which is when 5marine+marauder is designed to hit you i think. On smaller maps atleast ive had cyber core unpowered before warpgate finish vs 2rax, and if that happens there is no way you can hold the stim push that comes minutes later because you will take too much damage defending
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On December 27 2011 15:34 Cyro wrote:Show nested quote +On December 26 2011 13:46 TripleOSeven wrote:
However, the main thing is that because 2rax can be defended by a 1-gate fe toss, its probably way easier off 1 base.
Thats not really true, of course you have the ramp etc, but you still only have the same amount of units before the warpgate timing, which is when 5marine+marauder is designed to hit you i think. On smaller maps atleast ive had cyber core unpowered before warpgate finish vs 2rax, and if that happens there is no way you can hold the stim push that comes minutes later because you will take too much damage defending
I've never seen the push you refer to. All of the top level players doing 2 rax push with 2 marauders + marines, not 1 marauder. Pushing with 6 units sounds incredibly unsafe.
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Usually when I 2rax I push out with 9 marines + 2 maruders with conc shell... If you're pushing at 1 marauder and 5 marines you're playing 2rax wrong...
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United Kingdom20297 Posts
I thought 5 marines+marauder was standard reactor first 2 rax... If you wait for another 2 pops of marines and another marauder, he will have warpgate when you hit, and 6-7 units instead of three. I have had a lot of shit with 5marines+marauder vs masters terrans, but if you wait longer, the 3 stalker warp and extra 1-2 forcefields will let him crush your force with almost no damage taken and an earlier expand.
edit: Of course it depends on map, small maps waiting for more units is probably better, but large ones you have to hit as soon as possible if you want to attempt to do critical damage to 1gate expand i think
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Not sure about that when I do 2 rax i push out really earlier but not intending to end the game. If they 1 gate FE they might die, I usually push out with 1 marine 1 rauder and 1or2 scvs with more rallied. When you hit they might have a stalker or zealot and they will lose that for sure. After that you want to try to make a bunker. Also at the same time you are supposed to make an expansion and bunker up there too, as well as make sure you do not get supply blocked.
If you manage to get the pylons, you can actually end the game lol. Sometimes people try to 4 gate, but skipping that first unit, and I hit before warp tech is done. So I basically have a window to get the pylons, and they have to throw probes at me hehe. Not sure what level you are but at plat level bunch of early protoss aggression, so 2 rax is very safe to expand off of while able to apply pressure. Depending on map, it is always 1 rax or 2 rax. In big maps i really like the 1 rax marauder expand XD
I am wondering if 3 or 4 rax all in works vs toss these days? I try to follow what pros do, and I have not seen that in a long time.
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I always thought the best way to do 2rax was wait for 2 marauders and then push. Is this the wrong way?
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Not sure but i like to send early to punish some greedy builds, I believe pros tend to just send it around to catch lone scouting stalkers or probes or proxy pylons. I just do not want to send so early that the warpgate is done, because early pressure is not going to work with warpgate done....Much easier to deal with a zealot or stalker.
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On December 26 2011 13:46 TripleOSeven wrote:
In my opinion, if your going against a void-ray + 3gates, this could be a bad build because when you push (5marine~ and 1 marauder), I believe the timing is by the time you get to their base, their first void is out, and they can ff the ramp. And since its a one base all in, they should have a easy time chasing your units down and counter-attacking for the win. Against 4-gate, as long as your not trapped in your base when they attack and you get stim instead of concussive shells (usually, you should be able to scout if their 4gating) you will have a easy time vs a 4gate. Again, this is just in my (rather limited) experience with 2rax.
However, the main thing is that because 2rax can be defended by a 1-gate fe toss, its probably way easier off 1 base.
Edit: If you can expand safely, its probably the better choice, as you can add on even more rax/infrastructure after.
4 gate is really easy to hold with 2 rax (you can hold it with 1 rax as well)
3 gate VR is a bit more difficult but because you have 1 Reactor and a relatively quick stim (if you scout 1 base all-in) you should be just fine as long as you dont run up the ramp NEVER RUN UP A RAMP VS PROTOSS WITHOUT VISION (and most of the time not even with vision)
you go up scout with SCV and if you see a lot of stalkers and only 1 sentry you build 2 bunkers at home
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On December 26 2011 14:57 zimo.j wrote:
2-Rax can hold pretty much every 1-base Protoss strategy besides a void-ray all-in since you don't have enough Marines early enough to hold it. With a bunker it can hold a 4-gate, although maybe not as well as a 1 Rax FE.
did i read that wrong? 1 rax expand holds 4 gate better than 2 rax expand? I feel this is incorrect.....4 gate comes sooner, it is like at 5 min mark...
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Pushing when the 1st marauder pops is wrong. the correct timing is when u have 3 marauders + ~ 10 marines. and u are supposed to bring a couple of scvs. U should have enough money for a CC on your way to his base. And this move is only supposed to work against 1 gate expos or nexus 1st - it allows u to punish fast expanding protosses while taking your own expo safely. If the protoss 1 base, do not push. Sit back, scout for tech, and defend ur expo. U will still be ahead of him anyway if u hold since your expo is earlier than his.
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If they are 1 basing just get medivacs even before expanding. If they continue to all-in, you can kill them with stim and medivacs. If they only 1 base for a very short time, expand and quickly tech to colo/HT they might be safe, but then in that case you are free to take your expansion as well.
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On December 28 2011 18:01 Clazziquai10 wrote:
Pushing when the 1st marauder pops is wrong. the correct timing is when u have 3 marauders + ~ 10 marines. and u are supposed to bring a couple of scvs. U should have enough money for a CC on your way to his base. And this move is only supposed to work against 1 gate expos or nexus 1st - it allows u to punish fast expanding protosses while taking your own expo safely. If the protoss 1 base, do not push. Sit back, scout for tech, and defend ur expo. U will still be ahead of him anyway if u hold since your expo is earlier than his.
Wrong? Based on what?
It depends on what your opponent is doing of course, but there is very little reason not to be out on the field when you have conc shell upgraded, what can possibly go wrong? If you are lucky you might get a free stalker.
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On December 28 2011 17:34 thesums wrote:
did i read that wrong? 1 rax expand holds 4 gate better than 2 rax expand? I feel this is incorrect.....4 gate comes sooner, it is like at 5 min mark...
Fastest 4 gates come around 5.40-50, first warpin 5.30-40
1 Rax expand into 4 rax can't die to 4 gate since you have 2 bunkers full of marines.
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I was thinking about 2 rax (reactor first, then tech lab) and just getting out one marauder and then sticking to marines for a while.
Thorzains FE in TLS3 relied heavily on marines early and I think that they are just better for defending. Marauders are good if you are trying to be aggressive, but when defending, marines in bunkers will do well. Also that makes you safer against Void ray all ins. Also marines come more often so it might be safer. You will also be spending less minerals and gas so you can get a faster expansion and faster upgrades.
This seems safer than a 1 rax expand, but less agressive than 2 rax with constant marauder. Does this seem good or should I be leaning more towards early greed or early aggression (1 rax fe or 2 rax fe)?
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1)What would a correct follow up if protoss holds off my pressure by rushing out an immortal? (He cancels nexus)
I keep dying to a counter all in from protoss using 2 rax pressure
2)What if I cant deal enough damage to toss and fails to kill his nexus? Wouldnt I be behind in tech?
Thanks!
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Kas and Thorzain's 2 rax opening both attack as soon as the first marauder pops. Conc shells finishes as you get there and you start engaging. Thorzains given reasoning on his stream is that "if properly executed, no 1 gate FE variant should be able to stop this 2 rax" (paraphrasing a little here)
There is a second 2 rax variant where you wait for combat shields. Not 100% on that one.
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On January 02 2012 15:30 iaguz wrote:
Kas and Thorzain's 2 rax opening both attack as soon as the first marauder pops. Conc shells finishes as you get there and you start engaging. Thorzains given reasoning on his stream is that "if properly executed, no 1 gate FE variant should be able to stop this 2 rax" (paraphrasing a little here)
There is a second 2 rax variant where you wait for combat shields. Not 100% on that one.
This build was very good when thorzain did it, however the 5 second rax build time nerf was a huge blow to this build, it basically means that even a 1 gate fe protoss can warp in units as you arrive at his base, and you have no window to do damage. The build is still viable, but don't expect to do damage on any map larger then xel naga, and even then its unlikely.
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I'm referring to Thorzains streaming during December. I think the rax nerf didnt' affect his thinking.
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On December 29 2011 05:49 zezamer wrote:Show nested quote +On December 28 2011 17:34 thesums wrote:
did i read that wrong? 1 rax expand holds 4 gate better than 2 rax expand? I feel this is incorrect.....4 gate comes sooner, it is like at 5 min mark... Fastest 4 gates come around 5.40-50, first warpin 5.30-40 1 Rax expand into 4 rax can't die to 4 gate since you have 2 bunkers full of marines.
theres a new variation, protoss start playing 10 gate into 3gate stalker with all but 1 chrono on warpgate. it hits when u have about 6 marines out with 4 stalkers.
2rax makes you safe against most protoss allins. ur safe against blinkstalker allin due to fast stim and maurauders. safe against voidrays because many marines from reaktor. other 1 base is crap.
if u play against 4gate and do it right u win with 2rax. but you have to be out on the map, catch his army and kill the probe(s)
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im trying to think of a build that beats 2 rax plus mass bunkers that is 1 base... its kinda hard tbh man.
2 rax can make reapers to scout and scans at proper moments reveal all. once you know you can then add bunkers and more rax/get medivacs faster. 2 rax is safe
4 gate when scouted cannot beat 2 rax
void ray cannot beat it when scouted
immortals cannot beat it when scouted
sentry 4 gate cannot beat anything thats up a ramp and then you get stim/medivac and its over
i think if a terran is losing to a 1 base unlike other races its because of lack of scouted/prep. this is comming from a multi racer all of which are high masters
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On December 29 2011 05:49 zezamer wrote:Show nested quote +On December 28 2011 17:34 thesums wrote:
did i read that wrong? 1 rax expand holds 4 gate better than 2 rax expand? I feel this is incorrect.....4 gate comes sooner, it is like at 5 min mark... Fastest 4 gates come around 5.40-50, first warpin 5.30-40 1 Rax expand into 4 rax can't die to 4 gate since you have 2 bunkers full of marines.
Hmmm that is like no tech. I myself do the marauder expand but I say 2 rax expand holds 4 gate easier. And after I defend it, I can punish it easier, with medivacs and stim and it is GG. I do the marauder expand, to 2 more rax and starport tech for any of these Protoss builds, with quick ebay for upgrades and DTs.
I think 2 rax expand is hard counter vs 4 gate. I mean you can also build bunkers with 2 rax. I do not like 1 rax gasless sometimes, because early pressure can sometimes hurt, like the 1 base immortal sentry all in....eww. It will kill you without stim, if you do not play very well.
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Pushing out as soon as first marauder has been common for ages - conc shells finishes around halfway across the map, you can take map control and deny him any early pressure from zealot / stalker. This is even how BoxeR did / does it. No idea why people think waiting for 2 marauders is better... the Protoss will 100% have more than one forcefield for ramp unless he's being greedy on gas, or can just spam stalkers and micro to kill your stuff.
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I just want to add that bomber often pushes when the first marauder pops, and I like to do it too. (Though you should only care that bomber does it).
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I do this build like 90 percent of my tvps, and when you see them one basing i think its best to add a gas and factory and tech to medivacs on one base, stay on 2 barracks pumping units and get stim and go for a second timing. Your cc is really late but if he expanded you ahve a good chance of killing him and if he didnt your safe vs pretty much anything.
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Don't push out if they aren't expanding, be willing to sacrifice multiple SCVs to make sure of that fact, get both your gas right away, go marine heavy from this point. Without cutting any marines, tart engineering bay + factory when you can, the gas should be prioritized for stim > starport > combat shield > +1.
The problem is you never know which all in the protoss is doing, so build a turret at your ramp, and unless the protoss did some kind of really stupid 1 base colossus you should be able to hold just fine, and when the protoss expands, he will have a tough time holding stim mm + medevac and +1.
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On December 26 2011 16:35 SKTerran.117 wrote:
if protoss doesn't have a nexus going by the time I get to his base with 2 racks pressure, I add a 3rd racks and a factory as well as take my 2nd gas
I generally just prep to defend w/e weird all in he is planning and if he backs out and trys to just expand I all in and kill him with MMM+scvs
they go 1 gate robo, scout you, go 1 base collosus, hit 3 collosus by the time your starport could make 3 units
alternatively, they could 'back out and expand' while doing this, and 2 collo+bunch of units will hold any mmm+scv allin
against anything other than collosus this response would, 'work', i suppose. i think against a late P expand 2 rax excels without needing to allin because you can get fast medivacs and harass
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On February 17 2012 23:58 Notaa wrote:
Don't push out if they aren't expanding, be willing to sacrifice multiple SCVs to make sure of that fact, get both your gas right away, go marine heavy from this point. Without cutting any marines, tart engineering bay + factory when you can, the gas should be prioritized for stim > starport > combat shield > +1.
The problem is you never know which all in the protoss is doing, so build a turret at your ramp, and unless the protoss did some kind of really stupid 1 base colossus you should be able to hold just fine, and when the protoss expands, he will have a tough time holding stim mm + medevac and +1.
1 base collosus is the safest build vs a 1 basing terran for this reason. it also crushes 3rax and 1-1-1. i dont see how you could call it stupid 
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http://blip.tv/day9tv/day-9-daily-416-p2-marineking-vs-white-ra-2rax-opening-5947484
I am a low level player but the way day[9] seems to explain this build attacking with 1 marauder is the correct way to play. This is because the constant unit trade-off forces them to make units instead of tech and makes you stronger once you get medivacs out. In the above video we see VileIllusion destroy some protoss using this strategy.
Unfortunately at my level the macro tends to slip while there is constant engagement going on so it doesn't really work for me at the moment.
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Pushing with your first maurader is a good idea vs 1gate FE, bunker pressure also forces him to pull probes and engage immediately rather than wait for his warp-ins.
Just note you have to deal decent damage with this. If you get reflected easily you're probably way behind (behind enough that you've lost the game) since your expo literally starts when his finishes.
I wouldn't 2rax on long rush distance maps. It's easily held off with a safe 1gate FE variant on Shakuras, Cloud Kingdom, Taldarim, etc. I would actually consider it a build order loss (unless you all-in with it).
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2 rax is one of those nuanced builds. its outdated somewhat, and its hard to play correctly. lots of terrans are overaggressive but at teh same time its very easy to go into the midgame far behind due to cc timing.
however, there is the 2nd advantage you have and its not just army, but ALSO tech vs a 1gate fe protoss; you get medivacs REALLY quickly even with the fastest cc off a 2 rax expand, and you NEED to use these asap and start poking at shit and taking control of the game.
its one of those builds that an MC like terran (if only one existed...Iris from BW. and no, mma is not this type im thinking of) could use really well, but i feel like people below gm should not use it except as an allin or vs an allin'ish P on small maps because transitioning into the midgame off a 2 rax fe is hard to do properly at a low level.
you can also do a 2rax conc into cloak banshee (delaying stim) and totally mindfuck the protoss when you poke with 1-2mara 5-6marine, and then shortly thereafter you have your flying dt on his probes. with the poke you can scout most robo builds and cancel cloak if needed. this can transition into a 2-1-1 really well, although tanks will be delayed and in return you will have more bio/can get 1 medivac.
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If you go for 2rax where you get reactor first and get many marines and only few marauders, you can easily hold every protoss 1base push with bunkers. If you go for tech lab first and get many marauders then you are very vulnerable to voidray all ins or immortal pushes.
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If toss doesn't expand and I've opened 2 rax, I'll add gas, tech to reactor port and add a 3rd rax (getting a 2nd tl). The factory floats over for scouting. It seems safe versus everything. Theres a nice timing when stim is done and medivacs are out. If they are going 1 base colossi, I have a reactored port to counter it. If a colossi push occurs before adequate vikings then engage in the open with a nice arc. Ive always had enough units to comfortably defend it.
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When you 2rax (Reactor/techlab) you push out with 2-3 scvs. You send one scv in front of the army to scout for the expo before you arrive. If you see the expansion going up, you put down 2-3 bunkers. If you see no expo, you leave one scv behind the mineral line (where they don't see it) and send another scv up the ramp and send your army back. If you see a low unit count, you can poke up but it's risky because they could just be hiding it. Any additional information on tech you can get is helpful. Behind this you expand and get a factory. You get your 2nd gas at the same time as your factory and tech up to medivacs, while adding on another barracks while you get the money. Ebay if you see 0 sentries when u walk up the ramp typically, you can also just walk up and kill him if he has 0 sentries.
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EPT
