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Hello there! How is your Christmas? Nevermind that..we have important business to discuss!
Alright, I will not be submitting a replay, but that is because I know there are SO many things I could do better. I just have a theoretical question. I was wondering who to ask and thought the scholars on this website would be ideal!
I play Terran. I was wanting to try the 2 rax that is semi-famous right now. The thing is, it feels good if they early expand, but what do people do if the Protoss one bases? Do people still expand? It feels like the 2 rax expand is weaker against a one base than a 1 rax epand because you have less time to get all those rax up.
So how do people feel?
Is 2 rax generally considered safe against 1 basing Protoss?
Do players still expand if the Protoss doesn't? Or do they put down more rax or factory instead?
I'll make a graph to illustrate my feelings.
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/zyBHH.png)
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Cute graphs bro. Try winning instead of playing in Paint.
User was temp banned for this post.
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In my opinion, if your going against a void-ray + 3gates, this could be a bad build because when you push (5marine~ and 1 marauder), I believe the timing is by the time you get to their base, their first void is out, and they can ff the ramp. And since its a one base all in, they should have a easy time chasing your units down and counter-attacking for the win. Against 4-gate, as long as your not trapped in your base when they attack and you get stim instead of concussive shells (usually, you should be able to scout if their 4gating) you will have a easy time vs a 4gate. Again, this is just in my (rather limited) experience with 2rax.
However, the main thing is that because 2rax can be defended by a 1-gate fe toss, its probably way easier off 1 base.
Edit: If you can expand safely, its probably the better choice, as you can add on even more rax/infrastructure after.
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Another concept that may be worth considering is something I do sometimes vs strong early game pressure, as toss. Its a well known fact that T can support 3 rax with addons off 1 base, however if your 3rd rax is delayed then you can get some money built up where you are only producing off 2 (and will continue to build up while you are building them as well). So what I am suggesting is it MAY be helpful to drop an extra 2 naked rax instead of a CC, and you should have enough to drop a CC just before you are able to start production off those extra 2 (naked) rax. It just means your army value hits weird offtimings, even though your expo is a little delayed, and it may be helpful :D just food for thought
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Your graph is actually spot-on and shows your understanding of the build and its trade-offs.
On December 26 2011 13:30 Carmine wrote:
Is 2 rax generally considered safe against 1 basing Protoss?
2-Rax can hold pretty much every 1-base Protoss strategy besides a void-ray all-in since you don't have enough Marines early enough to hold it. With a bunker it can hold a 4-gate, although maybe not as well as a 1 Rax FE.
On December 26 2011 13:30 Carmine wrote:
Do players still expand if the Protoss doesn't? Or do they put down more rax or factory instead?
That all depends. I'm assuming you are scouting and with the early Marauder push you can get even more info. If the Protoss doesn't expand and is going for a 3 Gate-Robo all-in, Immortal bust then you have a little bit of time; throw down a CC in-base and bunker up. If you hold it you win. If you scout DTs incoming then get a Turret and expand.
Same goes for scouting a FE. If you think you can take a greedy Protoss throw 2 more naked Rax down and push push push!
You understand that the build is better in some circumstances, but it can be adapted as well, the same as most any other build.
EDIT: removed quoted images.
EDIT 2: fixed typo
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Just learn to cut your losses before the protoss realizes what you're doing. The 2nd rax does allow you extra marines to pressure with, but each marine is -50 marines towards your cc. If you know you have absolutely no chance of doing any damage without incurring severe losses yourself, just stop production for like 30 seconds, build a cc, then resume production. Scan around the 6minute mark too to see what kind of 1base he is going for. Most 1base protoss builds, barring collosi builds, can be held off with bunkers, repair, and marines.
Just because you went 2rax doesn't mean you actually have to go through with it.
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I assume you're talking about the new-ish TvZesque 2 rax in TvP? The answer is always the same no matter what you're doing, if you're being all-inned, all you have to do is hold, so you probably should avoid expanding. There aren't a lot of 1 base protoss opens that transition well into an expand imo, so holding should at least put you a little ahead. Of course, my TvP sucks because I always try to expand regardless. I think if you put down 2 more rax naked, get a relatively late CC in base, then focus on holding and delay tech (get stim etc., but maybe forgo medivacs) you could hold most one base plays, except the old school one base colossus. Then again if he one base colossuses you, you would have time to get up an expo and lay down some barracks while teching straight to vikes even after a 2 rax, but it would be a close shave... Some all-ins/one base plays you could probably hold after a 2 rax if you prioritize bunkers asap, but of course, that puts you much further behind if he, say, 3 gate robos then decides to not attack you...
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2rax with reactor first (best way) is inherently safer against any 1base then a faster expand since those 1 base attacks with the possible exception of a late immortal all in, all come before your expansion would be really kicking in anyway, thus you will have more units to defend any aggression. The problem comes from people with 2 raxes feeling that because they 2raxd they MUST deal damage so they lose a bunch of units trying to attack up the ramp (never do this against protoss unless they have no sentries) and then they die to a counter attack. Against a later immortal all-in then yeah your graph is roughly accurate.
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Thanks for your help so far everyone. You may continue to discuss if you want but I am feeling a lot more comfortable with it now.
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2 Rax is a good opening but like some posters here said 3 gate Voidray is a very popular and very difficult all-in to hold with it. This is one of the reasons I don't like to use it anymore. Also, oftentimes it seems like the Protoss has enough units to defend your 2 marauder/marine push if they go 1 gate expo, or they even crush it.
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with the initial push you must know when to leave and back off. send 1 marine up the ramp and make him use a forcefield. i like to bring an scv or two and tank zealot damage. if you can snipe a pylon or kill some probes, great. but if can't then back off, make some bunkers and continue macroing. do not lose all of the units in this attack or you'll be so far behind.
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United Kingdom20284 Posts
On December 26 2011 13:46 TripleOSeven wrote:
However, the main thing is that because 2rax can be defended by a 1-gate fe toss, its probably way easier off 1 base.
Thats not really true, of course you have the ramp etc, but you still only have the same amount of units before the warpgate timing, which is when 5marine+marauder is designed to hit you i think. On smaller maps atleast ive had cyber core unpowered before warpgate finish vs 2rax, and if that happens there is no way you can hold the stim push that comes minutes later because you will take too much damage defending
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On December 27 2011 15:34 Cyro wrote:Show nested quote +On December 26 2011 13:46 TripleOSeven wrote:
However, the main thing is that because 2rax can be defended by a 1-gate fe toss, its probably way easier off 1 base.
Thats not really true, of course you have the ramp etc, but you still only have the same amount of units before the warpgate timing, which is when 5marine+marauder is designed to hit you i think. On smaller maps atleast ive had cyber core unpowered before warpgate finish vs 2rax, and if that happens there is no way you can hold the stim push that comes minutes later because you will take too much damage defending
I've never seen the push you refer to. All of the top level players doing 2 rax push with 2 marauders + marines, not 1 marauder. Pushing with 6 units sounds incredibly unsafe.
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Usually when I 2rax I push out with 9 marines + 2 maruders with conc shell... If you're pushing at 1 marauder and 5 marines you're playing 2rax wrong...
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United Kingdom20284 Posts
I thought 5 marines+marauder was standard reactor first 2 rax... If you wait for another 2 pops of marines and another marauder, he will have warpgate when you hit, and 6-7 units instead of three. I have had a lot of shit with 5marines+marauder vs masters terrans, but if you wait longer, the 3 stalker warp and extra 1-2 forcefields will let him crush your force with almost no damage taken and an earlier expand.
edit: Of course it depends on map, small maps waiting for more units is probably better, but large ones you have to hit as soon as possible if you want to attempt to do critical damage to 1gate expand i think
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Not sure about that when I do 2 rax i push out really earlier but not intending to end the game. If they 1 gate FE they might die, I usually push out with 1 marine 1 rauder and 1or2 scvs with more rallied. When you hit they might have a stalker or zealot and they will lose that for sure. After that you want to try to make a bunker. Also at the same time you are supposed to make an expansion and bunker up there too, as well as make sure you do not get supply blocked.
If you manage to get the pylons, you can actually end the game lol. Sometimes people try to 4 gate, but skipping that first unit, and I hit before warp tech is done. So I basically have a window to get the pylons, and they have to throw probes at me hehe. Not sure what level you are but at plat level bunch of early protoss aggression, so 2 rax is very safe to expand off of while able to apply pressure. Depending on map, it is always 1 rax or 2 rax. In big maps i really like the 1 rax marauder expand XD
I am wondering if 3 or 4 rax all in works vs toss these days? I try to follow what pros do, and I have not seen that in a long time.
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I always thought the best way to do 2rax was wait for 2 marauders and then push. Is this the wrong way?
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Not sure but i like to send early to punish some greedy builds, I believe pros tend to just send it around to catch lone scouting stalkers or probes or proxy pylons. I just do not want to send so early that the warpgate is done, because early pressure is not going to work with warpgate done....Much easier to deal with a zealot or stalker.
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On December 26 2011 13:46 TripleOSeven wrote:
In my opinion, if your going against a void-ray + 3gates, this could be a bad build because when you push (5marine~ and 1 marauder), I believe the timing is by the time you get to their base, their first void is out, and they can ff the ramp. And since its a one base all in, they should have a easy time chasing your units down and counter-attacking for the win. Against 4-gate, as long as your not trapped in your base when they attack and you get stim instead of concussive shells (usually, you should be able to scout if their 4gating) you will have a easy time vs a 4gate. Again, this is just in my (rather limited) experience with 2rax.
However, the main thing is that because 2rax can be defended by a 1-gate fe toss, its probably way easier off 1 base.
Edit: If you can expand safely, its probably the better choice, as you can add on even more rax/infrastructure after.
4 gate is really easy to hold with 2 rax (you can hold it with 1 rax as well)
3 gate VR is a bit more difficult but because you have 1 Reactor and a relatively quick stim (if you scout 1 base all-in) you should be just fine as long as you dont run up the ramp NEVER RUN UP A RAMP VS PROTOSS WITHOUT VISION (and most of the time not even with vision)
you go up scout with SCV and if you see a lot of stalkers and only 1 sentry you build 2 bunkers at home
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EPT
