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[D][G] Zealot-Archon Macro PvZ

Forum Index > StarCraft 2 Strategy
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SidewinderSC2
Profile Joined November 2011
United States236 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-01-02 20:15:50
December 20 2011 22:47 GMT
#1
Introduction
+ Show Spoiler +
Hello all! I am Sidewinder, a Masters Protoss in NA. I have always loved crafting builds in Starcraft, and of the many I have crafted, this is my pride and joy! This build is a very unique approach to PvZ wherein you are seizing control of the game very early, expanding behind aggression, and wanting to trade units with the Zerg player at key points in the game. Ultimately, it's the fastest way to put out the game-ending Colossus + Archon army you always want, assuming you run the build correctly and can make smart decisions. There are also many other points of the build that can just kill your opponent if they make a mistake.



The Build in a Nutshell
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The build is a Forge Fast Expand, 2Stargate Void Ray opener into a 9gate Charge Zealot/Archon attack and a 3rd base, followed by typical Colossus, Stalker (if you want it), Archon, Void Ray, Mothership, etc. It has +1 air weapons and +2 ground attack when the 3rd is to be taken, and this is your first big attack. Scouting is important since you will be skipping sentries (unless you scout something to tell you not to).



Conditions
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This build does extremely well on larger maps due to the reinforcement distance the Zerg player has to deal with. I would not run it on Xel'Naga Caverns and would be very pessimistic to run it exactly how it is written on Metal, Shattered and soon to be Arid Plateau because of either being bad FFE maps or being smaller maps.

This build also needs a lot of early-game scouting, so if you are unfamiliar with FFE scouting, I will briefly brush over reads and reactions.

- 6pool preparation and build abandonment is assumed.
- Did the natural expansion finish? If not, add a couple of Cannons to your wall to protect against a pending all-in. Get a sentry and don't put down a 2nd Stargate when it is asked for in the build. Use the Void Ray(s) to protect against a Nydus attack by killing overlords around your base.
- Did they take a reasonably quick 3rd base? If not, be less aggressive with your harassing Void Rays and more worried about a 2-base Roach or Baneling bust. Fly them on direct ground routes rather than taking back roads.
- If you are unsure about either of the above, a 3rd Cannon and chronoboosting Void Rays is acceptable - better to be prepared than die.



Opener
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The opener is a Forge Expand, and you can run Nexus first if you want, but I prefer this way considering I know the timings in and out and have run it a million times.

9 Pylon
13 Forge
17 Nexus
17 Cannon
17 Gateway
18 Pylon
18 2x Assimilator
Cybernetics Core @ 100% Gateway

All chronoboosts should be spent on probes for quite a while considering getting those 2 bases saturated earlier rather than later is very important. Obey any scouting reads outlined in the section above.



Scouting
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Scouting on any FFE is VERY important, but even moreso in this build considering you will typically skip any and all Sentries if they are running a build that allows it.

First thing you want to do is scout with your probe on 9 supply, which is typical. Check for 6pools and whatnot. DON'T LOSE THIS PROBE. Pylon block their hatchery if you have to. This probe is worth a lot in scouting information.

That same probe should go back to assure that the natural hatch is finished. If it didn't, abandon the build and prep to hold either a Roach or Baneling all-in. Get that probe into the main base if you can. Check for gas mining, Roach Warrens, fast Lair - anything that would point to a 2-base aggression play.

When you close your wall, try to build your probe outside the wall and use that probe to scout for a 3rd base. This will dictate what to do later in the game.



The Stargates
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If ran absolutely perfectly, your 2 Stargates should drop at about 6:05, but it's okay if they are a tiny bit late. These Stargates are both to do some harassment damage, force them to build extra queens and Spores (that won't help against your follow-up attack), and force them to make either Hydralisks or Mutalisks before they'd ideally want to.

As far as placement of the Stargates, it's good to put them in a place that they are unlikely to scout, but hiding scouting information isn't what this build is about. It's just a general rule of thumb that your tech choice will be more effective the later it is scouted.

The build for this section:

@300 Gas, 2 Stargates
2nd Cannon at front door (+1 more if they are mining a lot of gas)
2x Assimilator
@100% Stargates, 2 Void Rays (Use Chronoboost to assure they are on equal production cycles if one started before the other)
@100 gas, +1 Air Weapons (Chronoboost with available chrono - you should be low after chronoboosting probes pretty hard)
2 more Void Rays
+1 Ground Attack with your next 100 gas
Move out with 4 Void Rays, start 2 more
Rally the last 2 Void Rays to your front door for defensive purposes
Queue up Warpgate

Yes, forgo warpgate research and the typical safety sentry. You're relying a lot on scouting off this Forge Expand and if they are doing standard stuff (taking a 3rd base, basically), you shouldn't need the Sentry anyway. The 2nd Cannon seems a little contradictory to this line of thinking, but I still think it is worth it to help out against a rash Roach/Ling counter to your Stargate harassment.



The Void Ray Harassment
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Only do this if they have a 3rd base taken before ~7:30. If you scouted them still on 2 bases or mining a ton of gas, keep your Void Rays at home and focus on killing Overlords. Keep them in a pack of 6, considering 2-base Spire can give this build a lot of headaches if you lose any Void Rays.

This is a key turning point in this build because a smart Zerg player will know you are on 2 Stargates based on the unit count, if they did not already scout it. This means they have to weigh all of the options as far as what could follow it up. Most of the time, they will expect Phoenix for queen lifting, and if they see your +1 attack, it will cause them to heavily overreact to the harassment. The overreaction is a lot more important than doing actual damage, but if you are a good Void Ray user you can make the Void Rays kill drones, kill queens, kill spores and the harassment can last a long time. This is one of the points where if the Zerg makes a mistake, you could kill a hatchery or even his lair, which usually means game over. Feel free to be aggressive with these Void Rays, but be sure you are bouncing around to different locations to keep his attention divided and keep his forces in his base for as long as possible.

Part of this harassment is gathering scouting information, so you have a lot to pay attention to. If you can kill his Lair (and even his spawning pool!), it'll put him back to the stone age in terms of tech, so that should be a high priority if you know where it is. Killing a mining base is your ideal goal with this harassment, although killing tech like a Spire or Hydra den can be very helpful. Just be active with these Void Rays, but don't lose them if you can help it. Most of their job is to force a reaction, and to help out in army clashes throughout the game.

If they are not prepared for this attack, tech-wise, they may make a ton of Roaches and Zerglings and try to bust you down right then. You need to be mindful of where his forces are rallying (if you see Roaches hatching) and fall back in defensive position. Also, extra cannons here are a good idea since he's basically all-in.



Alternative Opener (More Consistent Harassment)
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kcdc suggested to open with a Zealot + Void Ray harassment to kill the 3rd base, and I agree that it is a stronger pressure/harassment and has a better chance to kill the hatch against GOOD Zergs (Masters+). I've ran it a few times and liked the opener, so this is another opener you can choose if you don't like 2 Stargate openers.

@100% Core, Stargate
@50 gas, Warpgate
@100 gas, +1 Ground Weapons
@100% Stargate, Void Rays x 3 (Chronoboost liberally)
+3 Gateways
Twilight Council with available gas
Move out with 2-3 Void Rays and 3 Zealots, along with a probe

Use the probe to set up a proxy pylon somewhere safe (high ground preferably if you can warp on the low ground near a Zerg 3rd). Warp in Zealots and use your Void Rays to target down units. If you see nothing but Zerglings reporting to the attack, he is likely going for a Spire and you may be wise to start Phoenix production instead of Void Rays off your Stargate.

Retreat after the 3rd is killed - no reason to waste units since this attack will not end the game.

Replay of kcdc executing this harassment - http://drop.sc/78252
Replay of myself executing this harassment - http://drop.sc/80068



The Zealot/Archon Transition
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As was asked for earlier in the build, +1 ground attack should be researching, so set down a Twilight Council to match up to where the +1 attack is finishing so you can start +2 attack without any interruption. This is all going to take place while your Void Ray harassment is going on, so if you don't have the APM, wait for a good time to send your Void Rays somewhere safe and go back home to macro up.

You will eventually research Charge, make 9 total gateways, make an extra Cybernetics Core for when you bust your wall down (if that's what you killed), make a Robotics for an Observer and a Warp Prism, and make a Templar Archives. This seems like a ton of stuff all going down at the same time, but a Zerg player really can't afford to move out of his base while you are harassing him, so you should be fine.

Your general actions once WG finishes should be:

9 Zealots
9 Zealots
8 HT (for Archons) + 1 Zealot
(3rd Nexus) - the timing on this is ideally about 13:30, so a bit late by standard measures in an economic build, but very safe.
9 Zealots

If Warpgate was late, feel free to make Zealots off your gateways - just spend your money the best you can. When you get your first warp-in of Zealots, start knocking down your wall so that if they attack you, your Zealots can help out instead of standing around behind your wall, doing nothing.

As is instructed, as soon as you get your Archons you should have the spare Minerals to drop a 3rd Nexus. Drop a couple pylons near this, as is standard, get one more Zealot Warp-in and begin your attack. Don't start the attack without your Observer or Warp Prism with your army.



The First Big Attack
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Only commence this attack if they took significant damage from your Void Ray attack, or if they are on primarily Spire tech. Trading against super-heavy Roach armies can be risky and it's best to take a 3rd and use your army defensively so you can abuse his rally time to your base.

Sometimes this attack can outright end the game, but it's not totally designed to. There are a few big points that you need to pay attention to in this attack.

- Attack as hard as possible when it's time to go.. don't stand around and wait for extra warp-ins.
- Reinforce your attack!
- Keep your army in one big ball if you can help it - sending a few Zealots around to other bases can be beneficial if you think his forces are wearing thin and he doesn't have static defenses at other bases.
- Zealots are expendable, Archons and Void Rays are not. All of your micro should be focused on getting good attacks, but not losing your gas-intensive units. Retreat them if you don't think you can break him with this attack. Trading Zealots for Roaches, Hydras, whatever is totally fine. If you can't win and your Archons/Void Rays are in a bad position while retreating, warp in another round of Zealots and attack his army with them - that will buy enough time to get your Archons and Void Rays off creep and home to safety.
- Sentries are also optional. If you want to run this with sentries, you can, but I feel that it's more important to focus gas on DPS units that you can ideally retreat and mix into your power army if you don't wind up winning during this attack.

If you are fighting Mutas during this attack and he insists on base-trading, warp in Stalkers at home instead of with your Warp Prism, and put down Cannons in your mineral line to minimize probe losses. You want to make him not be able to fight both parts of your army due to the lack of straight-up punching power that Mutas have.



Transitioning behind the Attack
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You will eventually be transitioning into Colossus and a Mothership. The Mothership tech is not necessary right away, but you do need the Robotics Support Bay and a 2nd Robotics. You shouldn't need any extra gateways until really late into the game, if at all. Start +3 attack and continue to produce double Colossus + Range whenever you can find the time. Saturate your 3rd, of course, and protect with Cannons if need be. If at any point you start to lose the Zealot-Archon-Void Ray battle, retreat your gas intensive units and warp in at home.. I can't stress the importance of retaining your Archons and Void Rays enough.

If you lost the previous battle, and I mean lost it badly, you still should have a Warp Prism on the field and should feel free to do some Zealot harassment to pin him inside his base. I have won games where I lost my first attack, lost too many Archons and Void Rays, but then stayed in the game only because of Warp Prism harassment.



Potential Counterattacks
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If you don't wind up winning with your first push, which should be normal at higher levels, then you should have retreated your Archons and Void Rays to join up with your reinforcements at home. In the meantime, this may encourage the Zerg player to counter pretty heavily. Fortunately, Zealots are the best defending tool you have, you should still have a lot of units and hopefully a couple of Colossi on the field by the time they get there.

I say Zealots are the best defensive tools because the only way they can effectively fight Zealots with standard unit compositions is by stutter stepping backward, moving them away from your base while you eagerly await Colossi to come on the field. Not to mention, they will be off creep so the Zealots will get a lot of damage in, and they only cost you Minerals which means moar Archons for the big attack.

The only point where this is pretty untested is against a Muta transition after your first attack, and it could be problematic, but at the same time your attack should have depleted their gas reserves and their supply should be much more focused in Roaches or Hydralisks. If they went Mutas initially, your first attack actually should have won the game or at least did tons of damage, making Muta counterattacks anemic.

I've had people tell me that Hydra counters to either your Void Ray harassment or after you've lost your Zealots in the first engagement are nasty, but honestly I don't see this problem in the games I play. Typically if somebody opens 2 Stargate, they will follow it up with Colossus, and if you counter with Hydras at that time, you're all in and probably going to lose right there. So, as a Zerg player in standard ZvP, countering at any time with a high number of Hydras is a pretty bad idea unless you found a way to get them into the main base.



The Colossus Attack
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Once you reach 4 Colossus and if you retained your Archons + Void Rays, move out. This attack has SOOO much DPS, and should occur at about 18 minutes. Your focus with this attack should be on their newly mining bases, in an attempt to starve them out as opposed to just beating them down. Again, reinforce with a Warp Prism.

This attack will usually end the game because you will ideally be at 4 Colossus, ~7 Archons, 6 Void Rays, as many Zealots as you can muster up and +3 attack. Almost nothing can fight that straight up because of the damage sponges and splash you have, along with the fact that your aggression should have kept them off Hive tech. This also puts out a better DPS army quicker than standard PvZ with Stalker + Colossus.



Taking a 4th Base
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You really want to time this out to when your main is about mined out, so pay attention to that and take it whenever you can. Most of the time, this correlates with your first Colossus attack, so this is just standard macro sense right here.



Timing out the Mothership
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As we all know, the only reliable way to fight late-game Brood/Infestor is with a Mothership. Once you have 4 Colossus out and are attacking, I think this is a nice time to start the Fleet Beacon and get the Mothership on the way. The only way you can lose at this point is if they get fast Brood Lords out, so if you lost the previous attack, just get the MS out sooner rather than later. Most of the time, their resource banks will be depleted and put into units that helped them win the previous attack, so you should have a fair amount of time before Brood Lord production is to begin anyway.



Overall Theory Behind the Build vs Standard Play
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This build forces your opponent to respect all 3 stages of your attacks, and if they don't respect any one of the 3, they should die or take a ton of damage. It's a build that puts a Zerg player in a corner and dictates what they need to do in order to stay alive, as opposed to you letting them macro freely and eventually pin you in your base with harassment or just having huge reinforcement potential.

PvZ, right now, is based around Stalkers. Blink Stalker play is fine for some, but I find it to be a little slow in terms of winning battles, and a little fragile in the sense that they are prone to mismanagement. If you like Blink Stalkers, more power to you. I definitely respect somebody that can take a Blink Stalker army and control it to get like 500% efficiency out of it. As a whole, Blink Stalkers kind of deal with everything if you control them properly, but they don't really force your opponent to play a certain way, and I don't care for that very much. My other big problem with Blink Stalker attacks is that their DPS is often too low to put on ravaging pressure with. It allows a Zerg player to hit a lot of production cycles while the attack is still building up, meaning there's a good possibility that a bit of miscontrol will mean you just lost, or you run the risk of losing your 3rd base if you are expanding behind the pressure.

This build supresses something really important in PvZ, and that is not allowing your opponent to get a big bank of resources so he can endlessly re-max, which if you allow them to, your attacks are a constant uphill battle. If ran correctly, you should army trade with mineral-only units while you can always save your gas-heavy units to be mixed into an insane army later in the game, opening timings at points where Zerg players would otherwise max out, take extra bases and build up a huge bank of resources.

Right now, the Metagame in PvZ is typically a Spire for Mutas at some point. There are three normal places a Zerg player can begin Muta production, and those are: Spire on 2 bases (rare and kinda bad), Spire on 3 bases before Roach, and a Spire after Roach production, which is typically to hold off 7gate all-ins or something similar.

The thought process with Mutas has somewhat been "just all-in when you see the Spire", which can work but I, again, find it to be a little too unreliable. This build will attack very heavily when Mutalisk production is supposed to either begin or have around 15 (typically un-upgraded) Mutas out, against Protoss units that the Zerg player can't really afford to fight straight up. So while it's not all-inning against a Muta Zerg, it is designed to hit them very hard, leaving them with few options to recover and play a longer game.

Secondarily, Eco Roach or Roach/Infestor seems to be a big problem if you are stuck on Blink Stalkers and can't really afford to expand or tech without getting overrun, and this build deals with it fairly well in the sense that it puts the Zerg on a tightrope during the first attack, and recovers pretty well later on. Roach/Infestor is probably the build's biggest problem, which I will explain later.

I call this a macro build because it could very well be a 2-base all-in if you wanted it to be, but I feel the transition in this build and it's late-game versatility is extremely strong. All-inning with Zealots as your main DPS isn't terribly reliable, even though it is very powerful, so I felt it was best to take a 3rd with this while applying enormous, 2-base pressure while you transition appropriately for the late game and taking a 4th base.

It does open 2Stargate Void Rays, but even if these Void Rays do no significant damage, they do keep you safe from 2-base Roach, their first round of Mutas, and they force a reaction out of the Zerg player, whether it be a lot of Spores, Queens, Mutas, Hydras, Infestors, Corrupters, whatever. I still think people overlook the usefulness of forcing a Zerg player to mold his unit composition into one a Protoss player will want to fight.



Problems, Concerns and FAQ
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The raw reality is that Starcraft is a game in which no build is invincible, and any build can lose to another build that fights it well. This is no exception. Please don't bring up "X and Y would beat it" in your replys unless you have replays to support your argument, considering I have many replays that support mine. I will acknowledge where this build can struggle and how you can adapt.

vs any 1-base play
It's best to abandon the strict build order if you can scout 1-base play. It does skip a sentry if you run it normally, but there is no reason to run this build if they are all-inning you. Make more cannons, get at least one Sentry, and only 1 Stargate.

vs Nydus play
I haven't come across this in the ~30 games I've played with this build. Most of the time, having Void Rays out and being careful about killing overlords around your main and natural will discourage a Zerg from doing it, but the same handling applies to any other Forge Expand trying to defend a Nydus attack - just try to stop worms, use buildings and position effectively and micro your heart out. If a Nydus does get done and they start rolling Hydralisks in, you could be in a lot of trouble.

vs Drop play
Just keep your army at home and defend it. You will eventually clean it up and should take minimal damage. Be sure to keep poking around with your Void Rays to check for Overlord speed, and position buildings or observers to spot for this if you are worried about it.

vs Banelings
If you have gosu micro, you can turn the autocast off your Zealots, and when banelings roll in, Charge your Zealots back to one of your units that is far away from the front lines. +2 Archons 1-shot Banelings and the splash damage with multiple Archons almost renders the Banelings useless. Just try to preserve Zealots the best you can, whether it's splitting or crazy Charge micro.

vs Roach/Hydra
This is what I see the most often, and unless you get a really good engagement point (like right at their natural so they are forced into a corner), the first push won't end the game. Unless you did significant damage with your Void Ray attack, I'm getting more and more happy with staying home, getting Colossus and then pushing, rather than trying to trade.

vs Roach/Infestor
This is easily the build's biggest weakness, only assuming that the Zerg player has fantastic control and decision-making. It still does force the Zerg to be very precise with their Fungals, have good Roach control to prevent them from taking damage, and it also sucks at dealing with the Warp Prism reinforcing at areas other than the battle. The Zerg basically has to handle their attack flawlessly because if they start losing Roaches and Infestors and/or run out of energy, they're dead.

Alternatively, you can just stay home and get Colossus up, which he will have a really hard time stopping.

Secondarily, and this is something I haven't performed yet, if you get a chance to see the Infestors on the field before morphing Archons, it wouldn't be a bad idea to get 2 or 3 auxillary Templars just for feedback.

vs Roach/Corrupter
This is actually a pretty tough composition if you move out before your Colossus are done. Again, this follows the "only attack with Zealot/Archon if you did good damage with your Stargates" rule.

vs Muta before Roach
Follow the scouting section above to determine what you should do with your Void Rays. If you read it correctly, the +1 Void Rays will hold off their first round of Mutas if you retained all 6 of them. Most of the time their first round of Mutas is about 10 at a time, and you have 6 Void Rays with +1 attack, which trades about evenly cost-for-cost (2 to 1) with Mutas. It can get tight, but your WG should be finishing up right then and you can warp in a few Stalkers to help push this off. Cannons in your main, plus holding an Archon or two at each base for a minute will prevent any damage until it's time to move out. After that, warp-in Stalkers at home while you attack, and he shouldn't be able to hold off your first attack or do any overly significant damage to your main. Anybody that has tried to go Muta first and didn't kill my Void Rays (aka, I wasn't doing something dumb) has died to the Zealot/Archon attack.

vs Muta after Roach
This is a little more stable against the Zealot/Archon attack, but you still have plenty to deal with Mutas and shouldn't have that moment in your main of "shit, I need to react to this immediately or lose tons of probes" on their first round of Mutas. If you can time out your attack to hit as soon as you see their Muta production start, then they should take a ton of damage from it. Be sure to focus fire down Mutas with your Stalkers, Archons and Void Rays.

vs Pure Hydra
This can be a little problematic, but requires insane control on the Hydras. The Charge makes the Hydras take a ton of damage and as soon as they lose about 6-7, it should be totally downhill considering your reinforcements are really strong, and Hydras die to +2 Archons at a frightening rate. If they try to attack you at your front door and you have any Zealots out, this attack actually shouldn't do anything but lose them a lot of gas.

vs Brood Lords
As I mentioned in the build, you do need a Mothership to combat this to eventually toilet the Broods and eliminate the threat. A good time to prep for Brood Lords in this build is as your Colossus push is moving out. Getting a Mothership on the field at all can never hurt, but don't prioritize it over hitting any of the normal attack timings, considering if they try to get Brood Lords during these attack timings they should die to your pressure. SUPER super fast Broods could cause a problem if you don't catch it, and assuming they held your Zealot/Archon attack, but Zerg players in standard ZvP typically can't afford to go Broods so early, so I don't consider it to be that much of a threat.

Engaging Mutalisks
If they balled up all of the Mutalisks and Zerglings, your priority is to let the Zealots deal with the Zerglings, and have your Archons and Void Rays fight the Mutalisks. Keep your army in a big ball and don't let the Zealots charge too far ahead of the rest of your army.

Engaging Roach/Hydra
If you decide to engage, your job is essentially to spread out, get as much surface area as possible and let him worry about managing the fight. If at any point he just stands there and eats the damage, his army will get crushed, cost for cost, and if he kites back he may run out of area to battle you and be cornered, which means he starts eating damage. If he kites back in an open area, just let the Zealots die, accept that you won't win the battle, continue to warp in Zealots at his mining bases to deal some harassment damage and retreat your Archons and Void Rays. Ultimately, Roach/Hydra or pure one or the other can't fight by standing around and shooting at this army composition, so defensively it's actually quite good. Offensively it is really good if they screw up their control or get backed into a corner.

Why no Sentries?
As I explained, I don't feel that the Sentries add a lot to the overall goal of this build. If you like them and want to use them, go for it. I don't because I want a late-game army where Zealots are my defensive Forcefields, Archons soak up damage and Colossus splash all over everything. I like spending gas on DPS rather than space control. It's mostly personal preference.

Why no Phoenix?
This actually isn't that necessary to this build. Phoenix can be nice to lift units that try to retreat from Charging Zealots, but I find that focusing more energy into DPS (Void Rays) is better both in the short and long term. If you tacked on Phoenix production to your 6 Void Rays, you're now delaying your Zealot/Archon attack and making it more likely that you do inferior amounts of damage in your follow-up pushes. Again, if you like Phoenix and think it would help this build out, go for it.

Why no Storm?
I don't like Storm in PvZ as a whole, and particularly not in this Zealot/Archon attack. I don't like it because the reason this attack is powerful is due to it's lasting effect. The attack needs to last a long time or else your transition and 3rd base are all of a sudden vulnerable. Storm has a ton of up-front power, but if you miss Storms or if they just burrow and come back to fight, all of a sudden the Research was a big waste of gas. I would recommend getting Storm later in the game if you are fighting a Mutalisk transition, though.

Any armor or Shield upgrades?
I've always thought that armor and Shield upgrades in PvZ were kind of worthless. Since Zerg traditionally has weaker units, I've always prioritized getting attack upgrades and getting their units off the field as soon as possible. I typically don't get either in my PvZ games, but you can get them if you want.



Replays!
+ Show Spoiler +
Some of these replays were during the times that I was still fine-tuning everything and hammering out theory before I had a chance to test specific scenarios, so it may not perfectly reflect the build posted above. All of which were against Zerg players in Master League NA at the time the games were played.

This section will be constantly updated as the build may continue to grow and evolve.

http://drop.sc/74635
Best replay for purely running the build vs time.

http://drop.sc/75289
Shows me missing my Stargates by about 30 seconds, completely misrallying my 2 protector Void Rays which made me lose my Natural to Roaches, missing my Zealot/Archon timing, rebuilding and coming back, displaying the build's resilience as opposed to just being gimmicky and all-in-ish.

http://drop.sc/75885
I forgot my Templar Archives and missed a bunch of probes in the early game. I totally missed my timing because of the TA not being down, so I decided to max out on Zealot/Archon, then attack. The attack still did tons of damage against Roach/Hydra. This replay actually shows the Fleet Beacon going down and the Mothership starting, even though I killed him before I needed the Mothership.

http://drop.sc/76341
Scouted a hatch cancel, prevented the all-in and easily killed him on 2 bases.

http://drop.sc/71970
Played against a player that went Roach/Infestor, which should give this build the most trouble. He slightly mishandles his Infestors, and dies - shows how well the Zerg needs to keep this attack under control.

http://drop.sc/76342
When unscouted, a Void Ray harassment can end the game.

http://drop.sc/82827
I decided to heavily commit to the Zealot/Archon attack after I killed his 3rd and he tried to counter with Hydra/Ling. As expected, the push killed him because he did not have much of an economy. Shows how fragile the Zerg's options are here, and one mistake can easily end the game in my favor.

http://drop.sc/82828
Zerg player stays on 2 bases for a while. I keep my Void Rays at home considering he does not have a 3rd base that went up before 7:30, as I mentioned earlier, and he gets really inefficient trades when he tries to Roach/Ling bust me and I handle it with minimal probe losses. He also tries to follow it up with Mutas, to which I decide to go kill him instead of take a 3rd and get Colossus up.



Viability Among Leagues
+ Show Spoiler +
I have only used this build up to Mid-Masters on NA. It works very well for me, and I'm not sure how it would fair in top 8 Masters or GM. For lower leagued players, I would imagine this build would work decently, but you do need solid macro, decent game sense and need to fully understand how and why the build works before just following it blindly .


Thanks for reading, and happy hunting!
Audemed
Profile Joined November 2010
United States893 Posts
December 20 2011 23:32 GMT
#2
Interesting read, I typically fail with my stargate play but this might give me the sense of direction I need. I'll definitely give it a shot.
"People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf." -George Orwell
advnt
Profile Joined February 2011
United States1 Post
December 21 2011 01:52 GMT
#3
nice build, i like your approach for PvZ. Only problem here is how do you deal with mass corrupters + roach?
Those that stand for nothing fall for anything.
dreamsmasher
Profile Joined November 2010
816 Posts
December 21 2011 04:44 GMT
#4
i believe tester did a similar build against losira in one of the MLG's on shakuras (can't be exactly sure here)
TypeSuN
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Korea (South)32 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-12-21 04:51:20
December 21 2011 04:51 GMT
#5
that build already exists for a long time and it is done with phoenixes into +2 chargelot archon. Its a good build often used on taldarim but if its scouted properly very defendable. (look up gsl)

btw: your build is wrong, not efficient.
너 그게 말이 되는 말이야?
SidewinderSC2
Profile Joined November 2011
United States236 Posts
December 21 2011 05:13 GMT
#6
On December 21 2011 10:52 advnt wrote:
nice build, i like your approach for PvZ. Only problem here is how do you deal with mass corrupters + roach?


Like is stated in the guide, I haven't fought a LOT of corrupters until really late in the game, where I had already done a lot of mining damage and overran my opponent with mostly gateway units. I actually think he was going Hydra Corrupter if I remember correctly.. it's in one of the replays here on an Antiga game.
SidewinderSC2
Profile Joined November 2011
United States236 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-12-21 05:17:51
December 21 2011 05:17 GMT
#7
On December 21 2011 13:51 TypeSuN wrote:
that build already exists for a long time and it is done with phoenixes into +2 chargelot archon. Its a good build often used on taldarim but if its scouted properly very defendable. (look up gsl)

btw: your build is wrong, not efficient.


I watch all of the GSL possible, especially Protoss games, and I've never seen it. Which games?

The only time I've seen that build used is Cruncher vs Golden way back in a summer pro/am. Cruncher's build was really all-in and Golden did not react and transition well at all. Cruncher even didn't have his all-in work and still won later on... his 3rd Nexus was taken at 17 minutes instead of 13:30 as this build asks for.



Also, it's not "efficient" in the sense that you're not focused on retaining units, but it does put out a stronger army earlier than traditional Blink Stalker into Colossus play. I'm not sure exactly how it's wrong, so I'd like you to elaborate on that last statement.
DrKillface
Profile Joined February 2011
Australia106 Posts
December 21 2011 16:19 GMT
#8
This is amazing. I think most people would be suprised how good void rays actually are (I was). I really like your concept of trading your minerals for their gas- I have some replays vs low masters if you're interested but its done really shabbily because I just took it straight to ladder and winged it.

Reasons why I like this build-
1) 2 star void can be game ending damage if the zerg gets lazy on scouting
2) if he doesnt, the quantity of voids means a heavy reaction from the zerg is required. this is essentially money wasted (2 spores + 1 queen isnt enough to defend one hatch, hydras have a rough time if you swing between bases) because the void rays main purpose is being part of your core army, and his investment in defense wont help him fight
3) basically autowin vs muta, I know the guide says not to make pheonix but with 2 star and +1, you can deny him from ever reaching his huge muta flock by massing pheonix as long as you start producing before his muta ball gets too big
4) void rays clear overlord sight for your warp prism

Musings:
I thought hydras would be a huge problem, as hydras are 'good' against basically everything in this army comp (even chargelots if there are roaches in front). However with the synergy between these units its quite the opposite- the chargelots block the hydras access to the voids so only the front few hydras can shoot back while the void rays handily mop them up. In theory it doesnt sound right but in practice I can assure you the void ray chargelot synergy nearly hard counters a roach hydra comp (you lose only mineral units, he loses heaps of gas, hydras are slow and you can retreat when your zeals die)

The OP says he hasnt got HT's but HT's are the answer to infestors with feedback and I've used them as such- and they're already easily accessible so it flows nicely

Transitions amazingly into a lategame chargelot HT (with storm) void ray carrier army. Many of you may not be aware but this is one of the most scary lategame deathballs a protoss can have ASSUMING of course your air attack upgrades are up to par. As most builds completely neglect air upgrades and often get 0 or only 1 stargate, this is a rough transition and not worthwhile. But this build just naturally leads into it


So thank you sidewinder for saving my zvp (I'm not following the guide exactly but pretty closely).



SidewinderSC2
Profile Joined November 2011
United States236 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-12-21 18:15:26
December 21 2011 18:15 GMT
#9
The only trouble I have with a Carrier transition is holding your 3rd base to counterattacks. The first attack does well at limiting his army size, but if the Zerg player handles that really well and you have to fall back, you kind of rely on your Colossus to clean that attack up. If you are waiting on Carriers I feel like they won't be ready to help win that fight.

And I used to run Carrier builds in PvZ, so.. heheh. :D


Since posting this I have ironically lost my 3rd and 4th games with the build because of missing my Templar Archives by about 15 seconds and getting my 3rd cancelled, and then accidentally cancelling my Mothership deep into a game. D'oh!

So yeah, when playing High Masters, don't make mistakes like this.
dreamsmasher
Profile Joined November 2010
816 Posts
December 21 2011 18:15 GMT
#10
http://tv.majorleaguegaming.com/events/1-mlg-raleigh-2011 i think this was the game i was talking about.
SidewinderSC2
Profile Joined November 2011
United States236 Posts
December 21 2011 18:16 GMT
#11
On December 22 2011 03:15 dreamsmasher wrote:
http://tv.majorleaguegaming.com/events/1-mlg-raleigh-2011 i think this was the game i was talking about.


It was actually Tester vs DRG. It was a quite similar build, but I'm not sure if Tester was ever inclined to take a 3rd base.
dreamsmasher
Profile Joined November 2010
816 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-12-21 18:27:14
December 21 2011 18:26 GMT
#12
he double expanded off of that timing though no? yea i forgot exactly the game, i do remembering being quite surprised that the strategy worked though, you can see DRG fight back with ling/hydra and then swap to roach hydra after he realizes the specific composition. also his build is a little bit different in the sense that he goes for psi-storm instead of colo
DrKillface
Profile Joined February 2011
Australia106 Posts
December 22 2011 03:32 GMT
#13
On December 22 2011 03:15 SidewinderSC2 wrote:
The only trouble I have with a Carrier transition is holding your 3rd base to counterattacks. The first attack does well at limiting his army size, but if the Zerg player handles that really well and you have to fall back, you kind of rely on your Colossus to clean that attack up. If you are waiting on Carriers I feel like they won't be ready to help win that fight.

And I used to run Carrier builds in PvZ, so.. heheh. :D


Since posting this I have ironically lost my 3rd and 4th games with the build because of missing my Templar Archives by about 15 seconds and getting my 3rd cancelled, and then accidentally cancelling my Mothership deep into a game. D'oh!

So yeah, when playing High Masters, don't make mistakes like this.

you can get storm instead, feels like a much more natural transition to me and I cant think of anything that it wouldnt work against that collosus would even though its less effective against roaches- they dont feel like much of a threat honestly. This is after about 5 games of it so you're probably more experienced than I however
SidewinderSC2
Profile Joined November 2011
United States236 Posts
December 22 2011 20:52 GMT
#14
Your biggest problem with this build actually is a lot of Roaches. If you're not going Colossus then you will want to go Storm but WITH 2 Robo Immortals. I just don't like that unit composition for the entire game though.. it often comes down to needing Storms and if you are on the back foot and don't have HT with energy available, you're most likely dead.
kcdc
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States2311 Posts
December 23 2011 01:55 GMT
#15
You want voids to support your zealot-archon composition, but it seems that you have plenty of time to build up your void ray count off of 1 stargate, and that you're making a lot of sacrifices in your build to get double stargate in order to harass. But it sounds like your harass isn't always that successful. Have you considered doing a zealot-void ray opening sort of like this instead?

http://drop.sc/78252

If you do it well, you attack by 8 min, and you almost always do big damage. The only way they save their third is by getting an early roach warren, lots of units, and spores at their third. IMO, it's a smaller investment that does more damage.
DrKillface
Profile Joined February 2011
Australia106 Posts
December 23 2011 05:04 GMT
#16
On December 23 2011 05:52 SidewinderSC2 wrote:
Your biggest problem with this build actually is a lot of Roaches. If you're not going Colossus then you will want to go Storm but WITH 2 Robo Immortals. I just don't like that unit composition for the entire game though.. it often comes down to needing Storms and if you are on the back foot and don't have HT with energy available, you're most likely dead.


after playing this more I agree with you 100% on this haha
DrKillface
Profile Joined February 2011
Australia106 Posts
December 23 2011 05:09 GMT
#17
On December 23 2011 10:55 kcdc wrote:
You want voids to support your zealot-archon composition, but it seems that you have plenty of time to build up your void ray count off of 1 stargate, and that you're making a lot of sacrifices in your build to get double stargate in order to harass. But it sounds like your harass isn't always that successful. Have you considered doing a zealot-void ray opening sort of like this instead?

http://drop.sc/78252

If you do it well, you attack by 8 min, and you almost always do big damage. The only way they save their third is by getting an early roach warren, lots of units, and spores at their third. IMO, it's a smaller investment that does more damage.


The reason I've been liking the double stargate with +1 air is because of how good muta play is vs toss at the moment. Maybe I'm just using it as a crutch but I find that the double star is a surefire way to completely deny muta play from them or have a huge advantage if they try to go for it anyway. However the OP says he doesnt make pheonix against muta so I cant speak for him.
Cerpher
Profile Joined January 2011
United States37 Posts
December 23 2011 05:17 GMT
#18
yet another all in build disguised...
lets hope i do some damage with 2 stargates.. oh no didnt work t.t
lets go 9 gate mass zealot with like 2 archons! yeah!
oh no didnt work lets get 4 collosus and pray again...
no didnt work t.t now must go archon toiilet.. last hope...
~3 all in disguised into 1 build
NeaT.

User was temp banned for this post.
Thank You
Duckvillelol
Profile Blog Joined July 2009
Australia1240 Posts
December 23 2011 05:57 GMT
#19
On December 23 2011 14:17 Cerpher wrote:
yet another all in build disguised...
lets hope i do some damage with 2 stargates.. oh no didnt work t.t
lets go 9 gate mass zealot with like 2 archons! yeah!
oh no didnt work lets get 4 collosus and pray again...
no didnt work t.t now must go archon toiilet.. last hope...
~3 all in disguised into 1 build
NeaT.


Great contribution.

Meanwhile - I think as mentioned above there could be a couple of small problems with hydra/roach armies given that there is no real AOE damage here. Chargelots are quite nice with they buffer for Archons, but in my experience there is only so much that composition can take when trying to deal with hydra/roach.

I do love how this easily deals with Muta, given how ridiculously popular mass muta is in some parts of ladder. Going to have a peek at the reps when I get home and give this a shot.
Former SC2 commentator. youtube.com/duckvillelol
happyness
Profile Joined June 2010
United States2400 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-12-23 08:21:37
December 23 2011 06:19 GMT
#20
On December 23 2011 14:17 Cerpher wrote:
yet another all in build disguised...
lets hope i do some damage with 2 stargates.. oh no didnt work t.t
lets go 9 gate mass zealot with like 2 archons! yeah!
oh no didnt work lets get 4 collosus and pray again...
no didnt work t.t now must go archon toiilet.. last hope...
~3 all in disguised into 1 build
NeaT.


Uh, all-in implies that it is your last chance at winning. You can't have 3 all-ins in one build.

Notice that the name of the build is [edit: ]not "passive macro PvZ", which is what I think you are looking for

edit: I forgot the not in there xD
Cerpher
Profile Joined January 2011
United States37 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-12-23 06:29:53
December 23 2011 06:24 GMT
#21
im just saying it as it is...
on their own.. its an all in... you just put them together.. honestly..

as for the build itself.. its kinda along the same concept of forcing hydras into collo
but instead you go chargelot archon.. which is pretty good vs roach hydra and then transition into collo..
and then archon toilet... which is still broken post-nerf

i fail to see how this is "passive-macro" when you are committing 2 stargates + 9 gateways + upgrades off 2 base and then transition into 3rd base. you need to do some serious damage with it. but its not bad to say the least. i know im bashing it a lot but with crisp execution it seems like a nightmare to face
Thank You
Conquerer67
Profile Joined May 2011
United States605 Posts
December 23 2011 06:50 GMT
#22
Uh, all-in implies that it is your last chance at winning. You can't have 3 all-ins in one build.

Unless you play terran .

Why no Storm?
I don't like Storm in PvZ as a whole, and particularly not in this Zealot/Archon attack. I don't like it because the reason this attack is powerful is due to it's lasting effect. The attack needs to last a long time or else your transition and 3rd base are all of a sudden vulnerable. Storm has a ton of up-front power, but if you miss Storms or if they just burrow and come back to fight, all of a sudden the Research was a big waste of gas. I would recommend getting Storm later in the game if you are fighting a Mutalisk transition, though.


I'm curious as to your intuition for deciding to skip storm for the first push, as well as for the late game unless against mass muta. I realize that getting storm costs an entire HT, or essentially an entire archon, in gas, and you still can't use it right away upon warping in. But, as zerg, we usually have to rely on engaging the protoss attack both close enough to be within spine crawler range, but also be far enough that our army can't be split by the attack.

Storm as a spell is something that, even if a zerg burrows away from it, can put you to the advantage. If the zerg stays put, then the storms cause a lot of damage, and your army kills him that much easier. If he retreats, then his spines lose their meat shield, and you can get him close enough to his base to be able to split his army in two.

Think of it this way. You go towards his base with 5 free HT, each with a storm ready. Each time you drop one of those storms, you force him back a little. Assuming that you don't get any of them sniped, and you are macroing properly with reinforcements, consider each HT as being a single shot that forces the zerg further and further into the uncomfortably close zone. This is because no logically minded zerg will engage a protoss army either without a larva and money bank (and that's when both parties are close to or at max) or spines. As you said, PvZ cost efficiencies are pretty ridiculously one sided. Infestors even it out somewhat, but it's still pretty much leaning towards the protoss. So, we need a numbers advantage to be able to win and push you off. Which we shouldn't be able to get if you are properly macro'ing and making sure you expand behind the attack.

What I'm trying to say is that I think it would be better to go into that first engagement with 5 storm templar than three archons, just because of how you can use the storms to push the zerg back to the point that he can't efficiently join his army together.
I hate when people compare SC2 and rochambeu. One race isn't fucking supposed to counter another one. | Protoss isn't OP. Their units on the other hand....
ZaloMonkada
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
United States86 Posts
December 23 2011 07:29 GMT
#23
I've been doing the double stargate void ray opener for quite a while but i've been following it up with phoenixes and blink stalkers. I never thought to get rid of phoenixes, cool build i'm definitely going to try it out!
SaintsTheMetal
Profile Joined September 2010
United States45 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-12-23 07:56:03
December 23 2011 07:55 GMT
#24
I'm not playing nearly at the level you are, but I'm sorta confused about this double stargate voidrays opener.. Once your scouting probe is killed, you have no map presence, and with lings roaming the map no way to scout until your void rays.. Now how do you react when you see a 2base all-in of lings and roaches when you finally send out your voids?

Just faced this, and the zerg just base traded me. He tried to get a hydralisk den down, but I cleaned that up and pretty much mopped up his base of threats with my first 4 voids, and then tried to defend with my 2 voids (my very low count of gateway units got crushed...) However his mass lings obviously clears through my base faster than than voidrays will clear his.

Not really sure what I could have done differently with no way to scout and using all my gas on voids, which really take a long time to kill off lings and roaches..
SidewinderSC2
Profile Joined November 2011
United States236 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-12-23 09:19:10
December 23 2011 08:55 GMT
#25
On December 23 2011 10:55 kcdc wrote:
You want voids to support your zealot-archon composition, but it seems that you have plenty of time to build up your void ray count off of 1 stargate, and that you're making a lot of sacrifices in your build to get double stargate in order to harass. But it sounds like your harass isn't always that successful. Have you considered doing a zealot-void ray opening sort of like this instead?

http://drop.sc/78252

If you do it well, you attack by 8 min, and you almost always do big damage. The only way they save their third is by getting an early roach warren, lots of units, and spores at their third. IMO, it's a smaller investment that does more damage.


Hmm, that is interesting. I will definitely give it some thought.. I just like the Void Ray opener because I've opened 1 or 2 Stargate Void Rays for the longest time in PvZ and am very comfortable handling them along with macroing behind it.

The harassment isn't always successful in the sense that it doesn't do "actual" damage. But it does cause a sharp reaction to see that many Void Rays because they don't know what else could be coming behind it (most Zergs expect Phoenix and drop a lot more Spores than may be necessary), and it's an attack that relies on them being very crisp or they will lose a hatch, some tech, etc.

Think of it more as a mind game rather than something that's supposed to be reliably killing hatcheries, drones, etc.

With that said, if I do get a hatch or even the lair with my Void Rays, the Zealot/Archon follow-up kills them nearly every time. If it doesn't, it's almost always because I didn't reinforce it properly or made some other mistake along the way (or my opponent was just better than I was).

I simply phrased it as "the Void Rays don't need to do damage" because sometimes they don't kill anything and you can still win games by just following the build order. Even when they don't deal actual damage, the mental reaction you get out of the Zerg player is almost always worth getting the Void Rays on the field in big numbers ASAP - showing Zerg 2 Stargates and making them overreact to a pressure that doesn't fully develop the way they'd traditionally expect. I'm happy with knowing that damage can be done beyond what's supposedly tangible.
SidewinderSC2
Profile Joined November 2011
United States236 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-12-23 09:19:53
December 23 2011 08:57 GMT
#26
On December 23 2011 14:09 DrKillface wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 23 2011 10:55 kcdc wrote:
You want voids to support your zealot-archon composition, but it seems that you have plenty of time to build up your void ray count off of 1 stargate, and that you're making a lot of sacrifices in your build to get double stargate in order to harass. But it sounds like your harass isn't always that successful. Have you considered doing a zealot-void ray opening sort of like this instead?

http://drop.sc/78252

If you do it well, you attack by 8 min, and you almost always do big damage. The only way they save their third is by getting an early roach warren, lots of units, and spores at their third. IMO, it's a smaller investment that does more damage.


The reason I've been liking the double stargate with +1 air is because of how good muta play is vs toss at the moment. Maybe I'm just using it as a crutch but I find that the double star is a surefire way to completely deny muta play from them or have a huge advantage if they try to go for it anyway. However the OP says he doesnt make pheonix against muta so I cant speak for him.


I don't make Phoenix against Mutas in this build, no. Your 6 +1 air weapon Void Rays trade evenly up to 12 Mutas, and by then you should be about ready to move out or should have warp-ins to help protect yourself. See below where I talk about Mutas in response to 2 Stargates.
SidewinderSC2
Profile Joined November 2011
United States236 Posts
December 23 2011 09:01 GMT
#27
On December 23 2011 14:57 Duckvillelol wrote:Meanwhile - I think as mentioned above there could be a couple of small problems with hydra/roach armies given that there is no real AOE damage here. Chargelots are quite nice with they buffer for Archons, but in my experience there is only so much that composition can take when trying to deal with hydra/roach.

I do love how this easily deals with Muta, given how ridiculously popular mass muta is in some parts of ladder. Going to have a peek at the reps when I get home and give this a shot.


The funny thing about 2 Stargate openers with Void Rays showing first is that it almost always discourages a Zerg from going Spire considering if the typical follow-up is Phoenix and the Protoss sticks on that commitment, there's no way Mutas will win him that battle unless the Protoss has sloppy control. They are kind of pigeonholed into going for tons of queens (which is a risk against a really good Phoenix user), laying down a lot of spores, and usually forced into Hydralisks since overall they are an easier option against defending Stargate play.

Regarding Roach/Hydra - it really comes down to where the fight is going on, and how the Zerg player is handling the battle. If they ever stop trying to stutter step and just eat the damage, they will lose the battle assuming the army supplies are anywhere near each other, and if the Zealots have decent surface area. If you ever catch them in their natural or with their back to a wall, most of the time the Zealots and Archons will roll them over and you'll start getting outstanding trades or just kill them with your reinforcements.
SidewinderSC2
Profile Joined November 2011
United States236 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-12-23 09:21:41
December 23 2011 09:06 GMT
#28
On December 23 2011 15:24 Cerpher wrote:
im just saying it as it is...
on their own.. its an all in... you just put them together.. honestly..

as for the build itself.. its kinda along the same concept of forcing hydras into collo
but instead you go chargelot archon.. which is pretty good vs roach hydra and then transition into collo..
and then archon toilet... which is still broken post-nerf

i fail to see how this is "passive-macro" when you are committing 2 stargates + 9 gateways + upgrades off 2 base and then transition into 3rd base. you need to do some serious damage with it. but its not bad to say the least. i know im bashing it a lot but with crisp execution it seems like a nightmare to face


You're not committing to 2 Stargates per se. You want the reaction that 2 Stargates HAS TO warrant out of a Zerg to make your follow-up more potent. The units out of those Stargates have utility from minute 7 all the way to minute 35, so it's not like the production off there is wasteful. You have to understand that a Zerg that sees 2 Stargates has to overcompensate for what might come out of there, because a Protoss controlling the units well that come out of there could do so much damage that it ends the game. If they under-prepare for 2 Stargates, they should be used to dying to it. So I get the whole "why do you have 2 Stargates idle" thing, but I've always thought forcing a harder reaction was worth the extra 150/150.

9 gates is actually less than a 2-base Zealot/Archon can support - you're just given wiggle room to get your Nexus, Support Bay and whatever else out as you transition, while also assuring you are getting the most out of your attack.

You do need to do damage in the sense that you need to limit his army supply and make him dip into his cash reserves so his army size and overall macro are in check while you are still ramping yours up. It's not passive at all, but it is designed to be a macro style as opposed to a 2-base all-in. The other thing it does is keep Zerg off hive for just a little longer than usual, considering they have to keep making units if they are losing units to a hyper aggressive attack, while you are cutting corners (namely Stalkers) to achieve your ultimate army just a little faster than a standard macro PvZ would allow.
DrKillface
Profile Joined February 2011
Australia106 Posts
December 23 2011 09:06 GMT
#29
On December 23 2011 16:55 SaintsTheMetal wrote:
I'm not playing nearly at the level you are, but I'm sorta confused about this double stargate voidrays opener.. Once your scouting probe is killed, you have no map presence, and with lings roaming the map no way to scout until your void rays.. Now how do you react when you see a 2base all-in of lings and roaches when you finally send out your voids?

Just faced this, and the zerg just base traded me. He tried to get a hydralisk den down, but I cleaned that up and pretty much mopped up his base of threats with my first 4 voids, and then tried to defend with my 2 voids (my very low count of gateway units got crushed...) However his mass lings obviously clears through my base faster than than voidrays will clear his.

Not really sure what I could have done differently with no way to scout and using all my gas on voids, which really take a long time to kill off lings and roaches..


the simple solution is to send your void rays about 60% of the way to his base along their attack path, before veering off. if you see roaches coming you dont need to harass, just focus fire down the roaches with your voids while the cannon(s) deal with the lings. Since its also after a FFE you want to keep your scouting probe on the map for as long as you can and see if they take a fast 3rd before they get speed (3 and a half mins approx after gas is taken?), if not then a second cannon (even though the guide already recommends 2) would be a good idea too.
You should have a huge advantage in a situation like this, and even though he is alerted to void rays earlier than he could have been because of this (if he didnt scout your double star) its not that much difference and if he didnt scout he should still take damage even with the earlier reveal. Its worth sacrificing this small advantage for saftey in this case IMO
SidewinderSC2
Profile Joined November 2011
United States236 Posts
December 23 2011 09:12 GMT
#30
On December 23 2011 15:50 Conquerer67 wrote:I'm curious as to your intuition for deciding to skip storm for the first push, as well as for the late game unless against mass muta. I realize that getting storm costs an entire HT, or essentially an entire archon, in gas, and you still can't use it right away upon warping in. But, as zerg, we usually have to rely on engaging the protoss attack both close enough to be within spine crawler range, but also be far enough that our army can't be split by the attack.

Storm as a spell is something that, even if a zerg burrows away from it, can put you to the advantage. If the zerg stays put, then the storms cause a lot of damage, and your army kills him that much easier. If he retreats, then his spines lose their meat shield, and you can get him close enough to his base to be able to split his army in two.

Think of it this way. You go towards his base with 5 free HT, each with a storm ready. Each time you drop one of those storms, you force him back a little. Assuming that you don't get any of them sniped, and you are macroing properly with reinforcements, consider each HT as being a single shot that forces the zerg further and further into the uncomfortably close zone. This is because no logically minded zerg will engage a protoss army either without a larva and money bank (and that's when both parties are close to or at max) or spines. As you said, PvZ cost efficiencies are pretty ridiculously one sided. Infestors even it out somewhat, but it's still pretty much leaning towards the protoss. So, we need a numbers advantage to be able to win and push you off. Which we shouldn't be able to get if you are properly macro'ing and making sure you expand behind the attack.

What I'm trying to say is that I think it would be better to go into that first engagement with 5 storm templar than three archons, just because of how you can use the storms to push the zerg back to the point that he can't efficiently join his army together.


My thought process is that this attack is meant to jam the Zerg as far back into their base as possible. High Templar just don't have that lasting effect that 4 Archons do, and like you said it's essentially 1 less Archons for the attack. The attack moves out quicker, lasts longer and is much more stable than relying on offensive Storm damage.

Defensive Storms are always fine.. I've just never liked offensive Storms being your forefront DPS.

Against Zerg especially you need a unit that can eliminate stuff in like 1 hit after the Storms have gone off, and this composition just doesn't offer that. If you Storm, Zerg dodges and you run out of energy, all of a sudden your attack has no steam behind it and you won't get the pushing, trading effect you were going for.

Not to mention, running your Zealots into your own Storms isn't what I'd call getting good trades out of them..

DrKillface
Profile Joined February 2011
Australia106 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-12-23 11:03:55
December 23 2011 09:16 GMT
#31
On December 23 2011 17:57 SidewinderSC2 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 23 2011 14:09 DrKillface wrote:
On December 23 2011 10:55 kcdc wrote:
You want voids to support your zealot-archon composition, but it seems that you have plenty of time to build up your void ray count off of 1 stargate, and that you're making a lot of sacrifices in your build to get double stargate in order to harass. But it sounds like your harass isn't always that successful. Have you considered doing a zealot-void ray opening sort of like this instead?

http://drop.sc/78252

If you do it well, you attack by 8 min, and you almost always do big damage. The only way they save their third is by getting an early roach warren, lots of units, and spores at their third. IMO, it's a smaller investment that does more damage.


The reason I've been liking the double stargate with +1 air is because of how good muta play is vs toss at the moment. Maybe I'm just using it as a crutch but I find that the double star is a surefire way to completely deny muta play from them or have a huge advantage if they try to go for it anyway. However the OP says he doesnt make pheonix against muta so I cant speak for him.


I don't make Phoenix against Mutas in this build, no. Your 6 +1 air weapon Void Rays trade evenly up to 12 Mutas, and by then you should be about ready to move out or should have warp-ins to help protect yourself.



hmmm, havent tried in practice but if he does the muta + mass spines + smaller ground army style thats popular at the moment, wouldnt this be an unfavorable trade? I like pheonix against mutas from 2 star especially with +1 because it pretty much instantly guarantees you a fast follow up expand and limits his ability to be able to,
if he didnt have the spines I'm sure a push would probably kill him or do significant damage but if he did wouldnt it be possible that the push fails, then you're behind, then he outmacros with the standard muta/mass expand/map control play that is currently so popular?

edit: no combat-x
SidewinderSC2
Profile Joined November 2011
United States236 Posts
December 23 2011 09:18 GMT
#32
On December 23 2011 16:55 SaintsTheMetal wrote:
I'm not playing nearly at the level you are, but I'm sorta confused about this double stargate voidrays opener.. Once your scouting probe is killed, you have no map presence, and with lings roaming the map no way to scout until your void rays.. Now how do you react when you see a 2base all-in of lings and roaches when you finally send out your voids?

Just faced this, and the zerg just base traded me. He tried to get a hydralisk den down, but I cleaned that up and pretty much mopped up his base of threats with my first 4 voids, and then tried to defend with my 2 voids (my very low count of gateway units got crushed...) However his mass lings obviously clears through my base faster than than voidrays will clear his.

Not really sure what I could have done differently with no way to scout and using all my gas on voids, which really take a long time to kill off lings and roaches..


Firstly, you should get into the habit of scouting a lot with probes up until about 7:00 or so if you FFE. Use your initial probe to pylon block, then go hide it somewhere. Make sure it does more than just scout once. Scout to assure the hatchery has gone down at his natural and finished, if you can time it all out.

A good idea (and something I should honestly do more) is leaving the probe you use to close your wall on the outside of the wall, so it can go scout for a 3rd base. If they don't have a 3rd base, a Roach/Ling attack is more likely and you can drop a 3rd cannon if you're not confident on being able to intercept his Roaches in the middle of the map.

When you are harassing with Void Rays, you do have to patrol in patterns. If you don't know what he's doing, fly straight to his base along a ground path so you can see if he is sitting Roaches somewhere. If he is, it's best to attack those instead of trying to kill hatcheries, because if he's made a bunch of Roaches by that time he can't be ahead of you, economically, and harassing a hatchery instead of making sure you don't die won't accomplish a lot.

As for the Zerglings trying to base trade, if you have knowledge that he has a bunch of Roaches out and whatnot with your Void Rays flying around, drop a few extra cannons right then, send your Void Rays home and you should clean up the attack before he breaks your wall down.

I believe my last replay in this thread, on Tal'Darim, shows an example of this.
SidewinderSC2
Profile Joined November 2011
United States236 Posts
December 23 2011 09:30 GMT
#33
On December 23 2011 18:16 DrKillface wrote:hmmm, havent tried in practice but if he does the muta + mass spines + smaller ground army style thats popular at the moment, wouldnt this be an unfavorable trade? I like pheonix against mutas from 2 star especially with +1 because it pretty much instantly guarantees you a fast follow up expand and limits his ability to be able to,


Well, the problem with producing Phoenix afterward is that it now cuts into your Archon count and makes your follow-up push a lot less potent.

I talked earlier about how I believe 2 Stargates will almost always push Zerg players off a faster Spire because of the uncertainty of the Protoss follow-up, and unreliability against 4 Void Rays + Phoenix production behind it, which is what they have to prepare for.

So, to be totally honest, I don't know how this build fares against a Zerg that goes for that style because I haven't fought it yet. Based on pure percentages and the thought process I outlined above, this opener is meant to heavily discourage fast Spire play, so I think that'd be a good reason why I've never fought the style you're talking about with this build, yet.

if he didnt have the spines I'm sure a push would probably kill him or do significant damage but if he did wouldnt it be possible that the push fails, then you're behind, then he outmacros with the standard muta/mass expand/map control play that is currently so popular?

+ Show Spoiler +
edit: this style


This attack typically aims for expansions first and should be pretty fine with killing 3rds, 4ths, etc and leaving the Zerg crippled. You don't have to attack into Spines if you're not confident they are going to be of little resistance, so if I saw tons of spine crawlers at one location I'd just go attack anywhere but there and accept that it's all I'll be able to get for now - go home, macro up to 3 bases and be ahead economically, then attack into the Spines when I have the range to deal with it, or just go kill those vulnerable expansions again.

I'm also not sure that a very solid way to play Zerg would be to spend a ton of drones on Spores, which you kind of have to, remake them, and then spend them all over again on Spines. Seems like you're eating into your economy a bit too much if you have to do both, but I don't play Zerg and can't confirm that for sure.
DrKillface
Profile Joined February 2011
Australia106 Posts
December 23 2011 09:52 GMT
#34
On December 23 2011 18:30 SidewinderSC2 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 23 2011 18:16 DrKillface wrote:hmmm, havent tried in practice but if he does the muta + mass spines + smaller ground army style thats popular at the moment, wouldnt this be an unfavorable trade? I like pheonix against mutas from 2 star especially with +1 because it pretty much instantly guarantees you a fast follow up expand and limits his ability to be able to,


Well, the problem with producing Phoenix afterward is that it now cuts into your Archon count and makes your follow-up push a lot less potent.

I talked earlier about how I believe 2 Stargates will almost always push Zerg players off a faster Spire because of the uncertainty of the Protoss follow-up, and unreliability against 4 Void Rays + Phoenix production behind it, which is what they have to prepare for.

So, to be totally honest, I don't know how this build fares against a Zerg that goes for that style because I haven't fought it yet. Based on pure percentages and the thought process I outlined above, this opener is meant to heavily discourage fast Spire play, so I think that'd be a good reason why I've never fought the style you're talking about with this build, yet.

Show nested quote +
if he didnt have the spines I'm sure a push would probably kill him or do significant damage but if he did wouldnt it be possible that the push fails, then you're behind, then he outmacros with the standard muta/mass expand/map control play that is currently so popular?

+ Show Spoiler +
edit: this style http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_SWWu9T9Wko


This attack typically aims for expansions first and should be pretty fine with killing 3rds, 4ths, etc and leaving the Zerg crippled. You don't have to attack into Spines if you're not confident they are going to be of little resistance, so if I saw tons of spine crawlers at one location I'd just go attack anywhere but there and accept that it's all I'll be able to get for now - go home, macro up to 3 bases and be ahead economically, then attack into the Spines when I have the range to deal with it, or just go kill those vulnerable expansions again.

I'm also not sure that a very solid way to play Zerg would be to spend a ton of drones on Spores, which you kind of have to, remake them, and then spend them all over again on Spines. Seems like you're eating into your economy a bit too much if you have to do both, but I don't play Zerg and can't confirm that for sure.


Yeah thats true, I just really really hate spire play so I've been messing around with my own version of 2 star openings for a while now, although I went for more then standard 2 voids into ~5 phoenix which I found hard to make solid. I suppose I have an irrational fear of the zerg muta play just because I really really hate playing against it (I'm generally an active, map control kinda person) which is why this build appealed to me so much so quickly, cause it was basically an already fairly refined powerful build with double star early and +1 air anyway thanks for your help, I do think I will still go for pheonixes as a response to mutas and I'll let you know how it works but to each their own
SidewinderSC2
Profile Joined November 2011
United States236 Posts
December 23 2011 09:55 GMT
#35
Of course. Part of this thread is to plant seeds that there are other ways to play PvZ than what is standard, and it doesn't have to be all-in or gimmicky. If you find something that works and utilizes the same concept, more power to you.
kcdc
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States2311 Posts
December 23 2011 20:08 GMT
#36
On December 23 2011 17:55 SidewinderSC2 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 23 2011 10:55 kcdc wrote:
You want voids to support your zealot-archon composition, but it seems that you have plenty of time to build up your void ray count off of 1 stargate, and that you're making a lot of sacrifices in your build to get double stargate in order to harass. But it sounds like your harass isn't always that successful. Have you considered doing a zealot-void ray opening sort of like this instead?

http://drop.sc/78252

If you do it well, you attack by 8 min, and you almost always do big damage. The only way they save their third is by getting an early roach warren, lots of units, and spores at their third. IMO, it's a smaller investment that does more damage.


Hmm, that is interesting. I will definitely give it some thought.. I just like the Void Ray opener because I've opened 1 or 2 Stargate Void Rays for the longest time in PvZ and am very comfortable handling them along with macroing behind it.

The harassment isn't always successful in the sense that it doesn't do "actual" damage. But it does cause a sharp reaction to see that many Void Rays because they don't know what else could be coming behind it (most Zergs expect Phoenix and drop a lot more Spores than may be necessary), and it's an attack that relies on them being very crisp or they will lose a hatch, some tech, etc.

Think of it more as a mind game rather than something that's supposed to be reliably killing hatcheries, drones, etc.

With that said, if I do get a hatch or even the lair with my Void Rays, the Zealot/Archon follow-up kills them nearly every time. If it doesn't, it's almost always because I didn't reinforce it properly or made some other mistake along the way (or my opponent was just better than I was).

I simply phrased it as "the Void Rays don't need to do damage" because sometimes they don't kill anything and you can still win games by just following the build order. Even when they don't deal actual damage, the mental reaction you get out of the Zerg player is almost always worth getting the Void Rays on the field in big numbers ASAP - showing Zerg 2 Stargates and making them overreact to a pressure that doesn't fully develop the way they'd traditionally expect. I'm happy with knowing that damage can be done beyond what's supposedly tangible.


I understand that you can stay in the game even if you don't get a lot of kills because it forces a response. But I think the zealot-void pressure usually forces a bigger response or gets more kills even with a smaller investment. Here's a replay doing sort of your build but with the zealot void opening.

http://drop.sc/78511

The Z sort of defended the pressure because I put my proxy pylon in the wrong spot, so the pressure was late, but he still fell way behind in order to defend it. At that point, any transition would have won the game, but the zealot/archon transition worked well.
Harmonized
Profile Joined August 2010
57 Posts
December 25 2011 13:50 GMT
#37
Thank you so much for this build, my PvZ winrate has skyrocketted(?) and I finally get to the lategame if I don´t win with the zealot/arhcon push :D

I really think this strategy is just pure GENIUS!
Srsly thanks : )
ETisME
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
12384 Posts
December 25 2011 14:49 GMT
#38
2 stargate into 9 gate zealot archons, then going back to robo standard?
isn't that too much gas for a 2 base economy (from stargate to twilight)??

I don't get how you could transition to zealot archons once you get out the 2 stargate, how do you deal with a roache hydra counter attack?
2 stargate is quite a big commitment for a harassment if you are planning to transition to a completely different tech route
其疾如风,其徐如林,侵掠如火,不动如山,难知如阴,动如雷震。
SidewinderSC2
Profile Joined November 2011
United States236 Posts
December 25 2011 19:16 GMT
#39
On December 24 2011 05:08 kcdc wrote:I understand that you can stay in the game even if you don't get a lot of kills because it forces a response. But I think the zealot-void pressure usually forces a bigger response or gets more kills even with a smaller investment. Here's a replay doing sort of your build but with the zealot void opening.

http://drop.sc/78511

The Z sort of defended the pressure because I put my proxy pylon in the wrong spot, so the pressure was late, but he still fell way behind in order to defend it. At that point, any transition would have won the game, but the zealot/archon transition worked well.


Interesting replay.

I'm always mindful of continuing to develop my ideas, and this is a nice choice. I think if scouting a 3rd before 6 minutes, this may be a more rewarding pressure because it seems consistently more difficult to hold.

I'll keep the pressure in mind. Thanks .
SidewinderSC2
Profile Joined November 2011
United States236 Posts
December 25 2011 19:18 GMT
#40
On December 25 2011 23:49 ETisME wrote:
2 stargate into 9 gate zealot archons, then going back to robo standard?
isn't that too much gas for a 2 base economy (from stargate to twilight)??

I don't get how you could transition to zealot archons once you get out the 2 stargate, how do you deal with a roache hydra counter attack?
2 stargate is quite a big commitment for a harassment if you are planning to transition to a completely different tech route


Bust down your wall and attack with Zealots and Void Rays. You'd be surprised at how long it takes to shore up a decent hydra-based army and get it across the map. I've held plenty of these before Archons came out and got favorable trades out of it every time.

Can't remember all of my replays but there is one that shows a 2-base Roach/Hydra counter as soon as he pushed off my Stargate pressure.

And no, it's not too much gas. The gas production actually lines up perfectly to give you 4 Archons on your 3rd warp-in, as you're taking your Nexus.

Watch the replays .
SidewinderSC2
Profile Joined November 2011
United States236 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-12-27 16:40:30
December 27 2011 16:31 GMT
#41
So, kcdc.. I've actually used the opener you've suggested and I really like it! Thanks for the tip!

OP updated.
Harmonized
Profile Joined August 2010
57 Posts
December 27 2011 18:22 GMT
#42
Considering you have like 0 defense early on, would this opening work on maps like Shattered temple where you can´t build a full wall? Even if you do have 2 cannons, without a zealot or sentry I don´t really see how you would deal with simple ling runby´s!
SidewinderSC2
Profile Joined November 2011
United States236 Posts
December 29 2011 09:13 GMT
#43
On December 28 2011 03:22 Harmonized wrote:
Considering you have like 0 defense early on, would this opening work on maps like Shattered temple where you can´t build a full wall? Even if you do have 2 cannons, without a zealot or sentry I don´t really see how you would deal with simple ling runby´s!


Well, any build requires logical adjustment in less than ideal game situations. I mention potential all-ins in the first couple of sections, but the basic answer is that if you can scout an all-in coming then you should only put 1 Stargate down, make extra cannons, a sentry or two and just micro your best.. same goes for any Forge Expand opener.

I've had success with this build on Shattered in particular, usually due to the Zerg trying to 2-base all-in, it failing and me just running them over with a counter push at some point. You do need to have top notch scouting to make this work, so if you're not confident in that then you can always run something different, or just take later gasses for more cannons, possibly only put 1 Stargate down, etc. I do have an alternate opener in the build order that does better on maps where walling off fully isn't exactly convenient.
Markwerf
Profile Joined March 2010
Netherlands3728 Posts
December 29 2011 09:39 GMT
#44
It's silly to plan zealot/archon play so far ahead. Zealot/archon stinks hard against pure roach armies or roach/hydra armies. It's a fine followup against ling based armies but having a guide or pre-planned plan to go for it is just poor play I think, if you see or suspect mostly roach play I'd always advise to go stalker/colossus instead.
SidewinderSC2
Profile Joined November 2011
United States236 Posts
January 02 2012 20:16 GMT
#45
Updated the build to give a few extra options and scouting reads.
mashix
Profile Joined December 2010
Singapore21 Posts
January 03 2012 04:30 GMT
#46
I can imagine that this build might have a hard time vs 2 bases hydra lings. I will consider to either have a faster robo, stop at 2 or 4 voidrays and start building phoenixes OR to rush to chargelots if zerg doesn't have a fast 3rd or very late 3rd.
SidewinderSC2
Profile Joined November 2011
United States236 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-01-06 06:15:26
January 06 2012 06:14 GMT
#47
On January 03 2012 13:30 mashix wrote:
I can imagine that this build might have a hard time vs 2 bases hydra lings. I will consider to either have a faster robo, stop at 2 or 4 voidrays and start building phoenixes OR to rush to chargelots if zerg doesn't have a fast 3rd or very late 3rd.


Hydra/Ling timings are actually really easy to hold with this build and often result in a free win. You should have, at minimum, Zealots out and Hydras are the same speed off creep as Zealots, meaning if they try to fight at all they are losing everything and with acceptable Void Ray micro you shouldn't lose any.

The biggest problem with this build is actually blind 2-base Spire play, which is actually dumb from Zergs but it just happens to work out considering I'm not following my Void Rays up with anything. I'm working on adjustments to change the unit composition a bit for Mutas considering losing your Void Rays is really harmful. Other than that, against standard Roach/Hydra, which is what most Zergs will do in reaction to your 2 Stargates, this build has a really nice winrate.
RRDjhonn
Profile Joined January 2012
34 Posts
January 24 2012 19:41 GMT
#48

mmm im pretty sure that this is not working in my league Low master EU, because 9/10 games zergys focus on imbalisk/tons of spines/spore gameplay, if they saw FFE drone up to fast spire always and they had spire up around 8:30 mark so when u cames with 4 voids or 3 voids and zealots pressure, you have been just raped with 10-14 mutalisks and then zerg just go to your base and enjoy with free probes.

this build seems solid, but with the current metagame not think it works because if zerg dont scout 7gateway +1 weapon all-in after FFE they just get spire first.
Yaki
Profile Joined April 2011
France4234 Posts
January 24 2012 20:35 GMT
#49
interesting build, gonna work on it some time soon when i'll have the time. thanks
MC ■ MarineKing ■ LosirA ■ To someone who has lost after trying his best, no words from the winner can console him.
WolfBro
Profile Joined December 2011
United States59 Posts
January 27 2012 05:06 GMT
#50
When do you take your 3rd and 4th gas with the zealot/void ray harassment?
Mutown
Profile Joined February 2012
United States13 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-02-26 07:16:48
February 26 2012 07:15 GMT
#51
Hey Sidewinder, I really like this build! Do you have any more replays? It would be great if you had some from the latest patch and against roach/infestor, banneling/roach or nydus hydras.
ipwntbarney
Profile Joined September 2011
United States141 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-02-26 10:24:13
February 26 2012 10:22 GMT
#52
Zerg here. How would this build do against a 2-base roach/ling all-in? I do one that usually arrives at your base with 7 roaches and ~20 lings at around 7:30, which seems to be around the time that the first 2 voids pop out. If I deny scouting sufficiently, how would you respond? The first set of roaches and lings could probably do sufficient damage to put me ahead, and I could just make spores and extra queens, and set up for a roach/hydra follow-up before you could get enough archons to defend.
[UoN]Sentinel
Profile Blog Joined November 2009
United States11320 Posts
July 18 2012 02:17 GMT
#53
I'm going to bump this because this build just singlehandedly won me a tournament. Well my Ro8 was against a protoss but my other four sets were all against zergs and I used this to beat all of them!

That said, like the guy above me, what do you do against a 2-base roach/ling all in? And how early do you have to scout it to adequately prepare? Just wall off tightly with cannons or what? Because I've had trouble on Daybreak with this build and maps with wide chokes in general are hard to counter that all in push.

And again, very resilient. I too lost my natural and won the finals of the tourney. And it's reminiscent of Brood War corsair -> zealot archon goon builds so it comes more naturally.
Нас зовет дух отцов, память старых бойцов, дух Москвы и твердыня Полтавы
ineversmile
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
United States583 Posts
July 19 2012 20:26 GMT
#54
Do you have replays of those top 4 matches from the tournament, Sentinel? That would be awesome.
Nostradamus.146@AM, Nostradamus.398@KR, Nostradamus.922@EU http://www.teamliquid.net/blog/ins
Belial88
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States5217 Posts
July 19 2012 20:53 GMT
#55
On January 25 2012 04:41 RRDjhonn wrote:

mmm im pretty sure that this is not working in my league Low master EU, because 9/10 games zergys focus on imbalisk/tons of spines/spore gameplay, if they saw FFE drone up to fast spire always and they had spire up around 8:30 mark so when u cames with 4 voids or 3 voids and zealots pressure, you have been just raped with 10-14 mutalisks and then zerg just go to your base and enjoy with free probes.

this build seems solid, but with the current metagame not think it works because if zerg dont scout 7gateway +1 weapon all-in after FFE they just get spire first.


That sounds like the metagame from half a year ago... infestors is where it's at now. That, and roach/hydra/corruptor (particularly against stargate openers).
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ineversmile
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
United States583 Posts
July 19 2012 21:14 GMT
#56
On July 20 2012 05:53 Belial88 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 25 2012 04:41 RRDjhonn wrote:

mmm im pretty sure that this is not working in my league Low master EU, because 9/10 games zergys focus on imbalisk/tons of spines/spore gameplay, if they saw FFE drone up to fast spire always and they had spire up around 8:30 mark so when u cames with 4 voids or 3 voids and zealots pressure, you have been just raped with 10-14 mutalisks and then zerg just go to your base and enjoy with free probes.

this build seems solid, but with the current metagame not think it works because if zerg dont scout 7gateway +1 weapon all-in after FFE they just get spire first.


That sounds like the metagame from half a year ago... infestors is where it's at now. That, and roach/hydra/corruptor (particularly against stargate openers).


If you check the date, it is half a year ago....
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j.k.l
Profile Joined September 2012
112 Posts
September 14 2012 21:20 GMT
#57
is this build still effective? if not which guide do you suggest to follow in the current metagame?
~ Spirit will set you free ~
SidewinderSC2
Profile Joined November 2011
United States236 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-09-15 03:38:38
September 15 2012 03:33 GMT
#58
This build is likely still effective at lower levels, but since the meta has changed so much since when this was posted (~9 months ago), I am going to say this is not a particularly stable build. Even in the build notes, it mentions a common 3rd timing of 7:30.. haha. This build would straight up lose to 3-base Muta builds.. so, yeah, it has huge holes. You might still win against 3-base Infestor builds though, which are sort of common, only because hitting fungals on Charge Zealots with good energy efficiency is pretty hard.

In the modern meta, I would use the Mothership Expand and transition into Zealot Archon after your 3rd is established (instead of straight to Carriers). The idea behind that is Vortex + all Melee units = huge efficiency.

If you win with this build now, it's likely because it's so unexpected, or because your opponent makes a lot of mistakes.
kmillz
Profile Joined August 2010
United States1548 Posts
September 15 2012 04:04 GMT
#59
On September 15 2012 06:20 j.k.l wrote:
is this build still effective? if not which guide do you suggest to follow in the current metagame?


Ahhh..I hate you for bumping this. I didn't even realize it was posted in December and was considering incorporating it into my play seeing how effective it was...meta game has indeed changed :[
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