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im just saying it as it is...
on their own.. its an all in... you just put them together.. honestly..
as for the build itself.. its kinda along the same concept of forcing hydras into collo
but instead you go chargelot archon.. which is pretty good vs roach hydra and then transition into collo..
and then archon toilet... which is still broken post-nerf
i fail to see how this is "passive-macro" when you are committing 2 stargates + 9 gateways + upgrades off 2 base and then transition into 3rd base. you need to do some serious damage with it. but its not bad to say the least. i know im bashing it a lot but with crisp execution it seems like a nightmare to face
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Uh, all-in implies that it is your last chance at winning. You can't have 3 all-ins in one build.
Unless you play terran  .
Why no Storm?
I don't like Storm in PvZ as a whole, and particularly not in this Zealot/Archon attack. I don't like it because the reason this attack is powerful is due to it's lasting effect. The attack needs to last a long time or else your transition and 3rd base are all of a sudden vulnerable. Storm has a ton of up-front power, but if you miss Storms or if they just burrow and come back to fight, all of a sudden the Research was a big waste of gas. I would recommend getting Storm later in the game if you are fighting a Mutalisk transition, though.
I'm curious as to your intuition for deciding to skip storm for the first push, as well as for the late game unless against mass muta. I realize that getting storm costs an entire HT, or essentially an entire archon, in gas, and you still can't use it right away upon warping in. But, as zerg, we usually have to rely on engaging the protoss attack both close enough to be within spine crawler range, but also be far enough that our army can't be split by the attack.
Storm as a spell is something that, even if a zerg burrows away from it, can put you to the advantage. If the zerg stays put, then the storms cause a lot of damage, and your army kills him that much easier. If he retreats, then his spines lose their meat shield, and you can get him close enough to his base to be able to split his army in two.
Think of it this way. You go towards his base with 5 free HT, each with a storm ready. Each time you drop one of those storms, you force him back a little. Assuming that you don't get any of them sniped, and you are macroing properly with reinforcements, consider each HT as being a single shot that forces the zerg further and further into the uncomfortably close zone. This is because no logically minded zerg will engage a protoss army either without a larva and money bank (and that's when both parties are close to or at max) or spines. As you said, PvZ cost efficiencies are pretty ridiculously one sided. Infestors even it out somewhat, but it's still pretty much leaning towards the protoss. So, we need a numbers advantage to be able to win and push you off. Which we shouldn't be able to get if you are properly macro'ing and making sure you expand behind the attack.
What I'm trying to say is that I think it would be better to go into that first engagement with 5 storm templar than three archons, just because of how you can use the storms to push the zerg back to the point that he can't efficiently join his army together.
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I've been doing the double stargate void ray opener for quite a while but i've been following it up with phoenixes and blink stalkers. I never thought to get rid of phoenixes, cool build i'm definitely going to try it out!
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I'm not playing nearly at the level you are, but I'm sorta confused about this double stargate voidrays opener.. Once your scouting probe is killed, you have no map presence, and with lings roaming the map no way to scout until your void rays.. Now how do you react when you see a 2base all-in of lings and roaches when you finally send out your voids?
Just faced this, and the zerg just base traded me. He tried to get a hydralisk den down, but I cleaned that up and pretty much mopped up his base of threats with my first 4 voids, and then tried to defend with my 2 voids (my very low count of gateway units got crushed...) However his mass lings obviously clears through my base faster than than voidrays will clear his.
Not really sure what I could have done differently with no way to scout and using all my gas on voids, which really take a long time to kill off lings and roaches..
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On December 23 2011 10:55 kcdc wrote:You want voids to support your zealot-archon composition, but it seems that you have plenty of time to build up your void ray count off of 1 stargate, and that you're making a lot of sacrifices in your build to get double stargate in order to harass. But it sounds like your harass isn't always that successful. Have you considered doing a zealot-void ray opening sort of like this instead? http://drop.sc/78252If you do it well, you attack by 8 min, and you almost always do big damage. The only way they save their third is by getting an early roach warren, lots of units, and spores at their third. IMO, it's a smaller investment that does more damage.
Hmm, that is interesting. I will definitely give it some thought.. I just like the Void Ray opener because I've opened 1 or 2 Stargate Void Rays for the longest time in PvZ and am very comfortable handling them along with macroing behind it.
The harassment isn't always successful in the sense that it doesn't do "actual" damage. But it does cause a sharp reaction to see that many Void Rays because they don't know what else could be coming behind it (most Zergs expect Phoenix and drop a lot more Spores than may be necessary), and it's an attack that relies on them being very crisp or they will lose a hatch, some tech, etc.
Think of it more as a mind game rather than something that's supposed to be reliably killing hatcheries, drones, etc.
With that said, if I do get a hatch or even the lair with my Void Rays, the Zealot/Archon follow-up kills them nearly every time. If it doesn't, it's almost always because I didn't reinforce it properly or made some other mistake along the way (or my opponent was just better than I was).
I simply phrased it as "the Void Rays don't need to do damage" because sometimes they don't kill anything and you can still win games by just following the build order. Even when they don't deal actual damage, the mental reaction you get out of the Zerg player is almost always worth getting the Void Rays on the field in big numbers ASAP - showing Zerg 2 Stargates and making them overreact to a pressure that doesn't fully develop the way they'd traditionally expect. I'm happy with knowing that damage can be done beyond what's supposedly tangible.
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On December 23 2011 14:09 DrKillface wrote:Show nested quote +On December 23 2011 10:55 kcdc wrote:You want voids to support your zealot-archon composition, but it seems that you have plenty of time to build up your void ray count off of 1 stargate, and that you're making a lot of sacrifices in your build to get double stargate in order to harass. But it sounds like your harass isn't always that successful. Have you considered doing a zealot-void ray opening sort of like this instead? http://drop.sc/78252If you do it well, you attack by 8 min, and you almost always do big damage. The only way they save their third is by getting an early roach warren, lots of units, and spores at their third. IMO, it's a smaller investment that does more damage. The reason I've been liking the double stargate with +1 air is because of how good muta play is vs toss at the moment. Maybe I'm just using it as a crutch but I find that the double star is a surefire way to completely deny muta play from them or have a huge advantage if they try to go for it anyway. However the OP says he doesnt make pheonix against muta so I cant speak for him.
I don't make Phoenix against Mutas in this build, no. Your 6 +1 air weapon Void Rays trade evenly up to 12 Mutas, and by then you should be about ready to move out or should have warp-ins to help protect yourself. See below where I talk about Mutas in response to 2 Stargates.
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On December 23 2011 14:57 Duckvillelol wrote:Meanwhile - I think as mentioned above there could be a couple of small problems with hydra/roach armies given that there is no real AOE damage here. Chargelots are quite nice with they buffer for Archons, but in my experience there is only so much that composition can take when trying to deal with hydra/roach.
I do love how this easily deals with Muta, given how ridiculously popular mass muta is in some parts of ladder. Going to have a peek at the reps when I get home and give this a shot.
The funny thing about 2 Stargate openers with Void Rays showing first is that it almost always discourages a Zerg from going Spire considering if the typical follow-up is Phoenix and the Protoss sticks on that commitment, there's no way Mutas will win him that battle unless the Protoss has sloppy control. They are kind of pigeonholed into going for tons of queens (which is a risk against a really good Phoenix user), laying down a lot of spores, and usually forced into Hydralisks since overall they are an easier option against defending Stargate play.
Regarding Roach/Hydra - it really comes down to where the fight is going on, and how the Zerg player is handling the battle. If they ever stop trying to stutter step and just eat the damage, they will lose the battle assuming the army supplies are anywhere near each other, and if the Zealots have decent surface area. If you ever catch them in their natural or with their back to a wall, most of the time the Zealots and Archons will roll them over and you'll start getting outstanding trades or just kill them with your reinforcements.
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On December 23 2011 15:24 Cerpher wrote:
im just saying it as it is...
on their own.. its an all in... you just put them together.. honestly..
as for the build itself.. its kinda along the same concept of forcing hydras into collo
but instead you go chargelot archon.. which is pretty good vs roach hydra and then transition into collo..
and then archon toilet... which is still broken post-nerf
i fail to see how this is "passive-macro" when you are committing 2 stargates + 9 gateways + upgrades off 2 base and then transition into 3rd base. you need to do some serious damage with it. but its not bad to say the least. i know im bashing it a lot but with crisp execution it seems like a nightmare to face
You're not committing to 2 Stargates per se. You want the reaction that 2 Stargates HAS TO warrant out of a Zerg to make your follow-up more potent. The units out of those Stargates have utility from minute 7 all the way to minute 35, so it's not like the production off there is wasteful. You have to understand that a Zerg that sees 2 Stargates has to overcompensate for what might come out of there, because a Protoss controlling the units well that come out of there could do so much damage that it ends the game. If they under-prepare for 2 Stargates, they should be used to dying to it. So I get the whole "why do you have 2 Stargates idle" thing, but I've always thought forcing a harder reaction was worth the extra 150/150.
9 gates is actually less than a 2-base Zealot/Archon can support - you're just given wiggle room to get your Nexus, Support Bay and whatever else out as you transition, while also assuring you are getting the most out of your attack.
You do need to do damage in the sense that you need to limit his army supply and make him dip into his cash reserves so his army size and overall macro are in check while you are still ramping yours up. It's not passive at all, but it is designed to be a macro style as opposed to a 2-base all-in. The other thing it does is keep Zerg off hive for just a little longer than usual, considering they have to keep making units if they are losing units to a hyper aggressive attack, while you are cutting corners (namely Stalkers) to achieve your ultimate army just a little faster than a standard macro PvZ would allow.
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On December 23 2011 16:55 SaintsTheMetal wrote:
I'm not playing nearly at the level you are, but I'm sorta confused about this double stargate voidrays opener.. Once your scouting probe is killed, you have no map presence, and with lings roaming the map no way to scout until your void rays.. Now how do you react when you see a 2base all-in of lings and roaches when you finally send out your voids?
Just faced this, and the zerg just base traded me. He tried to get a hydralisk den down, but I cleaned that up and pretty much mopped up his base of threats with my first 4 voids, and then tried to defend with my 2 voids (my very low count of gateway units got crushed...) However his mass lings obviously clears through my base faster than than voidrays will clear his.
Not really sure what I could have done differently with no way to scout and using all my gas on voids, which really take a long time to kill off lings and roaches..
the simple solution is to send your void rays about 60% of the way to his base along their attack path, before veering off. if you see roaches coming you dont need to harass, just focus fire down the roaches with your voids while the cannon(s) deal with the lings. Since its also after a FFE you want to keep your scouting probe on the map for as long as you can and see if they take a fast 3rd before they get speed (3 and a half mins approx after gas is taken?), if not then a second cannon (even though the guide already recommends 2) would be a good idea too.
You should have a huge advantage in a situation like this, and even though he is alerted to void rays earlier than he could have been because of this (if he didnt scout your double star) its not that much difference and if he didnt scout he should still take damage even with the earlier reveal. Its worth sacrificing this small advantage for saftey in this case IMO
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On December 23 2011 15:50 Conquerer67 wrote:I'm curious as to your intuition for deciding to skip storm for the first push, as well as for the late game unless against mass muta. I realize that getting storm costs an entire HT, or essentially an entire archon, in gas, and you still can't use it right away upon warping in. But, as zerg, we usually have to rely on engaging the protoss attack both close enough to be within spine crawler range, but also be far enough that our army can't be split by the attack.
Storm as a spell is something that, even if a zerg burrows away from it, can put you to the advantage. If the zerg stays put, then the storms cause a lot of damage, and your army kills him that much easier. If he retreats, then his spines lose their meat shield, and you can get him close enough to his base to be able to split his army in two.
Think of it this way. You go towards his base with 5 free HT, each with a storm ready. Each time you drop one of those storms, you force him back a little. Assuming that you don't get any of them sniped, and you are macroing properly with reinforcements, consider each HT as being a single shot that forces the zerg further and further into the uncomfortably close zone. This is because no logically minded zerg will engage a protoss army either without a larva and money bank (and that's when both parties are close to or at max) or spines. As you said, PvZ cost efficiencies are pretty ridiculously one sided. Infestors even it out somewhat, but it's still pretty much leaning towards the protoss. So, we need a numbers advantage to be able to win and push you off. Which we shouldn't be able to get if you are properly macro'ing and making sure you expand behind the attack.
What I'm trying to say is that I think it would be better to go into that first engagement with 5 storm templar than three archons, just because of how you can use the storms to push the zerg back to the point that he can't efficiently join his army together.
My thought process is that this attack is meant to jam the Zerg as far back into their base as possible. High Templar just don't have that lasting effect that 4 Archons do, and like you said it's essentially 1 less Archons for the attack. The attack moves out quicker, lasts longer and is much more stable than relying on offensive Storm damage.
Defensive Storms are always fine.. I've just never liked offensive Storms being your forefront DPS.
Against Zerg especially you need a unit that can eliminate stuff in like 1 hit after the Storms have gone off, and this composition just doesn't offer that. If you Storm, Zerg dodges and you run out of energy, all of a sudden your attack has no steam behind it and you won't get the pushing, trading effect you were going for.
Not to mention, running your Zealots into your own Storms isn't what I'd call getting good trades out of them.. 
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On December 23 2011 17:57 SidewinderSC2 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 23 2011 14:09 DrKillface wrote:On December 23 2011 10:55 kcdc wrote:You want voids to support your zealot-archon composition, but it seems that you have plenty of time to build up your void ray count off of 1 stargate, and that you're making a lot of sacrifices in your build to get double stargate in order to harass. But it sounds like your harass isn't always that successful. Have you considered doing a zealot-void ray opening sort of like this instead? http://drop.sc/78252If you do it well, you attack by 8 min, and you almost always do big damage. The only way they save their third is by getting an early roach warren, lots of units, and spores at their third. IMO, it's a smaller investment that does more damage. The reason I've been liking the double stargate with +1 air is because of how good muta play is vs toss at the moment. Maybe I'm just using it as a crutch but I find that the double star is a surefire way to completely deny muta play from them or have a huge advantage if they try to go for it anyway. However the OP says he doesnt make pheonix against muta so I cant speak for him. I don't make Phoenix against Mutas in this build, no. Your 6 +1 air weapon Void Rays trade evenly up to 12 Mutas, and by then you should be about ready to move out or should have warp-ins to help protect yourself.
hmmm, havent tried in practice but if he does the muta + mass spines + smaller ground army style thats popular at the moment, wouldnt this be an unfavorable trade? I like pheonix against mutas from 2 star especially with +1 because it pretty much instantly guarantees you a fast follow up expand and limits his ability to be able to,
if he didnt have the spines I'm sure a push would probably kill him or do significant damage but if he did wouldnt it be possible that the push fails, then you're behind, then he outmacros with the standard muta/mass expand/map control play that is currently so popular?
edit: no combat-x
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On December 23 2011 16:55 SaintsTheMetal wrote:
I'm not playing nearly at the level you are, but I'm sorta confused about this double stargate voidrays opener.. Once your scouting probe is killed, you have no map presence, and with lings roaming the map no way to scout until your void rays.. Now how do you react when you see a 2base all-in of lings and roaches when you finally send out your voids?
Just faced this, and the zerg just base traded me. He tried to get a hydralisk den down, but I cleaned that up and pretty much mopped up his base of threats with my first 4 voids, and then tried to defend with my 2 voids (my very low count of gateway units got crushed...) However his mass lings obviously clears through my base faster than than voidrays will clear his.
Not really sure what I could have done differently with no way to scout and using all my gas on voids, which really take a long time to kill off lings and roaches..
Firstly, you should get into the habit of scouting a lot with probes up until about 7:00 or so if you FFE. Use your initial probe to pylon block, then go hide it somewhere. Make sure it does more than just scout once. Scout to assure the hatchery has gone down at his natural and finished, if you can time it all out.
A good idea (and something I should honestly do more) is leaving the probe you use to close your wall on the outside of the wall, so it can go scout for a 3rd base. If they don't have a 3rd base, a Roach/Ling attack is more likely and you can drop a 3rd cannon if you're not confident on being able to intercept his Roaches in the middle of the map.
When you are harassing with Void Rays, you do have to patrol in patterns. If you don't know what he's doing, fly straight to his base along a ground path so you can see if he is sitting Roaches somewhere. If he is, it's best to attack those instead of trying to kill hatcheries, because if he's made a bunch of Roaches by that time he can't be ahead of you, economically, and harassing a hatchery instead of making sure you don't die won't accomplish a lot.
As for the Zerglings trying to base trade, if you have knowledge that he has a bunch of Roaches out and whatnot with your Void Rays flying around, drop a few extra cannons right then, send your Void Rays home and you should clean up the attack before he breaks your wall down.
I believe my last replay in this thread, on Tal'Darim, shows an example of this.
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On December 23 2011 18:16 DrKillface wrote:hmmm, havent tried in practice but if he does the muta + mass spines + smaller ground army style thats popular at the moment, wouldnt this be an unfavorable trade? I like pheonix against mutas from 2 star especially with +1 because it pretty much instantly guarantees you a fast follow up expand and limits his ability to be able to,
Well, the problem with producing Phoenix afterward is that it now cuts into your Archon count and makes your follow-up push a lot less potent.
I talked earlier about how I believe 2 Stargates will almost always push Zerg players off a faster Spire because of the uncertainty of the Protoss follow-up, and unreliability against 4 Void Rays + Phoenix production behind it, which is what they have to prepare for.
So, to be totally honest, I don't know how this build fares against a Zerg that goes for that style because I haven't fought it yet. Based on pure percentages and the thought process I outlined above, this opener is meant to heavily discourage fast Spire play, so I think that'd be a good reason why I've never fought the style you're talking about with this build, yet.
if he didnt have the spines I'm sure a push would probably kill him or do significant damage but if he did wouldnt it be possible that the push fails, then you're behind, then he outmacros with the standard muta/mass expand/map control play that is currently so popular? + Show Spoiler +
This attack typically aims for expansions first and should be pretty fine with killing 3rds, 4ths, etc and leaving the Zerg crippled. You don't have to attack into Spines if you're not confident they are going to be of little resistance, so if I saw tons of spine crawlers at one location I'd just go attack anywhere but there and accept that it's all I'll be able to get for now - go home, macro up to 3 bases and be ahead economically, then attack into the Spines when I have the range to deal with it, or just go kill those vulnerable expansions again.
I'm also not sure that a very solid way to play Zerg would be to spend a ton of drones on Spores, which you kind of have to, remake them, and then spend them all over again on Spines. Seems like you're eating into your economy a bit too much if you have to do both, but I don't play Zerg and can't confirm that for sure.
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On December 23 2011 18:30 SidewinderSC2 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 23 2011 18:16 DrKillface wrote:hmmm, havent tried in practice but if he does the muta + mass spines + smaller ground army style thats popular at the moment, wouldnt this be an unfavorable trade? I like pheonix against mutas from 2 star especially with +1 because it pretty much instantly guarantees you a fast follow up expand and limits his ability to be able to, Well, the problem with producing Phoenix afterward is that it now cuts into your Archon count and makes your follow-up push a lot less potent. I talked earlier about how I believe 2 Stargates will almost always push Zerg players off a faster Spire because of the uncertainty of the Protoss follow-up, and unreliability against 4 Void Rays + Phoenix production behind it, which is what they have to prepare for. So, to be totally honest, I don't know how this build fares against a Zerg that goes for that style because I haven't fought it yet. Based on pure percentages and the thought process I outlined above, this opener is meant to heavily discourage fast Spire play, so I think that'd be a good reason why I've never fought the style you're talking about with this build, yet. Show nested quote +if he didnt have the spines I'm sure a push would probably kill him or do significant damage but if he did wouldnt it be possible that the push fails, then you're behind, then he outmacros with the standard muta/mass expand/map control play that is currently so popular? + Show Spoiler + This attack typically aims for expansions first and should be pretty fine with killing 3rds, 4ths, etc and leaving the Zerg crippled. You don't have to attack into Spines if you're not confident they are going to be of little resistance, so if I saw tons of spine crawlers at one location I'd just go attack anywhere but there and accept that it's all I'll be able to get for now - go home, macro up to 3 bases and be ahead economically, then attack into the Spines when I have the range to deal with it, or just go kill those vulnerable expansions again. I'm also not sure that a very solid way to play Zerg would be to spend a ton of drones on Spores, which you kind of have to, remake them, and then spend them all over again on Spines. Seems like you're eating into your economy a bit too much if you have to do both, but I don't play Zerg and can't confirm that for sure.
Yeah thats true, I just really really hate spire play so I've been messing around with my own version of 2 star openings for a while now, although I went for more then standard 2 voids into ~5 phoenix which I found hard to make solid. I suppose I have an irrational fear of the zerg muta play just because I really really hate playing against it (I'm generally an active, map control kinda person) which is why this build appealed to me so much so quickly, cause it was basically an already fairly refined powerful build with double star early and +1 air anyway thanks for your help, I do think I will still go for pheonixes as a response to mutas and I'll let you know how it works but to each their own
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Of course. Part of this thread is to plant seeds that there are other ways to play PvZ than what is standard, and it doesn't have to be all-in or gimmicky. If you find something that works and utilizes the same concept, more power to you.
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On December 23 2011 17:55 SidewinderSC2 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 23 2011 10:55 kcdc wrote:You want voids to support your zealot-archon composition, but it seems that you have plenty of time to build up your void ray count off of 1 stargate, and that you're making a lot of sacrifices in your build to get double stargate in order to harass. But it sounds like your harass isn't always that successful. Have you considered doing a zealot-void ray opening sort of like this instead? http://drop.sc/78252If you do it well, you attack by 8 min, and you almost always do big damage. The only way they save their third is by getting an early roach warren, lots of units, and spores at their third. IMO, it's a smaller investment that does more damage. Hmm, that is interesting. I will definitely give it some thought.. I just like the Void Ray opener because I've opened 1 or 2 Stargate Void Rays for the longest time in PvZ and am very comfortable handling them along with macroing behind it. The harassment isn't always successful in the sense that it doesn't do "actual" damage. But it does cause a sharp reaction to see that many Void Rays because they don't know what else could be coming behind it (most Zergs expect Phoenix and drop a lot more Spores than may be necessary), and it's an attack that relies on them being very crisp or they will lose a hatch, some tech, etc. Think of it more as a mind game rather than something that's supposed to be reliably killing hatcheries, drones, etc. With that said, if I do get a hatch or even the lair with my Void Rays, the Zealot/Archon follow-up kills them nearly every time. If it doesn't, it's almost always because I didn't reinforce it properly or made some other mistake along the way (or my opponent was just better than I was). I simply phrased it as "the Void Rays don't need to do damage" because sometimes they don't kill anything and you can still win games by just following the build order. Even when they don't deal actual damage, the mental reaction you get out of the Zerg player is almost always worth getting the Void Rays on the field in big numbers ASAP - showing Zerg 2 Stargates and making them overreact to a pressure that doesn't fully develop the way they'd traditionally expect. I'm happy with knowing that damage can be done beyond what's supposedly tangible.
I understand that you can stay in the game even if you don't get a lot of kills because it forces a response. But I think the zealot-void pressure usually forces a bigger response or gets more kills even with a smaller investment. Here's a replay doing sort of your build but with the zealot void opening.
http://drop.sc/78511
The Z sort of defended the pressure because I put my proxy pylon in the wrong spot, so the pressure was late, but he still fell way behind in order to defend it. At that point, any transition would have won the game, but the zealot/archon transition worked well.
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Thank you so much for this build, my PvZ winrate has skyrocketted(?) and I finally get to the lategame if I don´t win with the zealot/arhcon push :D
I really think this strategy is just pure GENIUS!
Srsly thanks : )
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2 stargate into 9 gate zealot archons, then going back to robo standard?
isn't that too much gas for a 2 base economy (from stargate to twilight)??
I don't get how you could transition to zealot archons once you get out the 2 stargate, how do you deal with a roache hydra counter attack?
2 stargate is quite a big commitment for a harassment if you are planning to transition to a completely different tech route
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On December 24 2011 05:08 kcdc wrote:I understand that you can stay in the game even if you don't get a lot of kills because it forces a response. But I think the zealot-void pressure usually forces a bigger response or gets more kills even with a smaller investment. Here's a replay doing sort of your build but with the zealot void opening. http://drop.sc/78511The Z sort of defended the pressure because I put my proxy pylon in the wrong spot, so the pressure was late, but he still fell way behind in order to defend it. At that point, any transition would have won the game, but the zealot/archon transition worked well.
Interesting replay.
I'm always mindful of continuing to develop my ideas, and this is a nice choice. I think if scouting a 3rd before 6 minutes, this may be a more rewarding pressure because it seems consistently more difficult to hold.
I'll keep the pressure in mind. Thanks .
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On December 25 2011 23:49 ETisME wrote:
2 stargate into 9 gate zealot archons, then going back to robo standard?
isn't that too much gas for a 2 base economy (from stargate to twilight)??
I don't get how you could transition to zealot archons once you get out the 2 stargate, how do you deal with a roache hydra counter attack?
2 stargate is quite a big commitment for a harassment if you are planning to transition to a completely different tech route
Bust down your wall and attack with Zealots and Void Rays. You'd be surprised at how long it takes to shore up a decent hydra-based army and get it across the map. I've held plenty of these before Archons came out and got favorable trades out of it every time.
Can't remember all of my replays but there is one that shows a 2-base Roach/Hydra counter as soon as he pushed off my Stargate pressure.
And no, it's not too much gas. The gas production actually lines up perfectly to give you 4 Archons on your 3rd warp-in, as you're taking your Nexus.
Watch the replays .
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EPT
