EPT[G] ZvP Midgame guide - Fall of the First born - Page 2
| Forum Index > StarCraft 2 Strategy |
|
fallore
United States143 Posts
| ||
|
Chaosvuistje
Netherlands2581 Posts
On November 30 2011 12:04 joeyBanana wrote: Great Guide, Sir. Really appreciate the work you put into the development of your Guides. Imho its time for you to get blue  If that is what you feel then you should post in the thread in the Website Feedback section  I think that thread in general doesn't get much love. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=193853On November 30 2011 12:04 joeyBanana wrote: Just a question considering the drone count: You said about 54 to 56 drones. Just to make things clear, although this question might seem stupid: You mean 3 base and 3 geysirs (with the aforementioned drone count) to support Roach/Ling production and defending a 2base push or pressure his 3rd and after that following your advice considering the different choices that P can make. (Robo, Twilight, etc. -> Mutas, Festors [Getting Geysir 4 to 6], Spines, getting a fourth etc. on our side as a reaction) Edit: Just a little, tiny gameplan i made up in my mind, to make my point above clear, what steps you take and how you structure your approach. Correct me please, if i did understand something wrong: 1. Drone up to 54 and 56 on 3Base/1Macro-Hatch // Get 3 Geysirs (Although: Gas timings are "fluid" and reactionary considering your economy / opponent) 1b. Scout and stay safe while doing that -> Figure out what the opponent is doing 2. Build up a good Roach number to just stay alive / be safe -> Support with "Zergling flood" if P is pushing out 3. Follow up with the appropriate reaction to his build (i.e. 4th to 6th Geysir, Mutas, Infestors, 4th, Hive, etc. pp.) That is what I mean yeah ^^ you summed it up quite nicely actually. I might alter it in the future on newer maps, but that is my general approach to a FFE opponent. On November 30 2011 12:04 joeyBanana wrote: And regarding a GW - Expand: The thing you adapt is takin' a macro hatch, instead of your early third, as i could read it out of your answer. Im just wondering what the best time is to take an actual third?! Ive got quite my problems with that, because i cant get a feel when to do it and when not. A really general question, but is there some rule of thumb like "If he pushes out and i defend, i can safely expand" or "Expand before he pushes, to overwhelm him with my production capability" ? The last argument would fit into the whole "ALWAYS stay one base ahead" - doctrine, which most Zergs follow. Whats your opinion on that point ? (Again, talking about GW - Expand only) Again, thank you for your great work for the community !! Greetz Because my builds generally do not rely on my food but more on my income, that question is quite difficult to answer in a forum post where people want to see a number on when to take your third. But the truth is, it differs a lot for me. In general though I do not take a third before the 30 food mark because I feel it sets my 2 base economy back too much and you have to drone up more to get that macro advantage again. Gateway Expands differ a lot from one another, 3 Gate expand being the worst, while 1 Gate expand is the best economy wise. He could be following it up with a quick double Stargate or an 8 gate push. Or he could be going Gate-Robo-Nexus and go for quick Collosus, or go 2 Gate Stargate Expand. All of these require different compromises. Against an FFE, you can just take 3 geysers, 55 drones, 4 hatches, lair and roaches safely, against a Gateway opening, you have to sacrifice one or two of those things. If you don't know if he is expanding yet or not and you went hatch first, just put down two Spinecrawlers to tell him that 4 gate aint going to work. If he does go for a 4 gate in true ladder-player style, you won't auto lose if you made more than 20 drones. If he has cognitive abilities past that of a dolphin, he will just scratch that possibility out of his mind for this game. In the case of a quick robo expand I like to just Spine up and skip the upgrade and get a Lair faster for quicker Mutalisks. If he is going for an 8 gate all in, you just get the third really late and go bonkers on units and take a third once you feel safe. If he is going for a 2 gate Stargate opening, you obviously can't take a quick third so you just rely on lings and Roaches to keep his natural down for as long as possible until you are safe to get a third. If you feel reasonably safe or you are preparing for a push, just put down the third, you can cancel it if he pushes quickly anyway. You just really need to be fluent about your building decisions, taking something out of the equation to be safe against what you scout. You will only really get this fluentness if you play a lot and your decision making gets better. ZvP is the match up that relies the most on your decision making, and you need a pretty large map of the match up to really make these decisions. What I give you is a small part of that map, and perhaps eventually I will have the full map laid out for you. But to be fair, I'm probably not even 30% there of what the match up will be shifting on every decision a Protoss player can make and such. I'll try to get it fully out there for you guys, but right now I need to get a good grasp of Infestor styles and Burrow play and perhaps Broodlord control. Sorry if this answer is little more than vague, but it's just tough to know the perfect decisions for everything a Protoss can do right now. | ||
|
joeyBanana
Germany77 Posts
On November 30 2011 18:10 Chaosvuistje wrote: If that is what you feel then you should post in the thread in the Website Feedback section I think that thread in general doesn't get much love. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=193853That is what I mean yeah ^^ you summed it up quite nicely actually. I might alter it in the future on newer maps, but that is my general approach to a FFE opponent. Because my builds generally do not rely on my food but more on my income, that question is quite difficult to answer in a forum post where people want to see a number on when to take your third. But the truth is, it differs a lot for me. In general though I do not take a third before the 30 food mark because I feel it sets my 2 base economy back too much and you have to drone up more to get that macro advantage again. Gateway Expands differ a lot from one another, 3 Gate expand being the worst, while 1 Gate expand is the best economy wise. He could be following it up with a quick double Stargate or an 8 gate push. Or he could be going Gate-Robo-Nexus and go for quick Collosus, or go 2 Gate Stargate Expand. All of these require different compromises. Against an FFE, you can just take 3 geysers, 55 drones, 4 hatches, lair and roaches safely, against a Gateway opening, you have to sacrifice one or two of those things. If you don't know if he is expanding yet or not and you went hatch first, just put down two Spinecrawlers to tell him that 4 gate aint going to work. If he does go for a 4 gate in true ladder-player style, you won't auto lose if you made more than 20 drones. If he has cognitive abilities past that of a dolphin, he will just scratch that possibility out of his mind for this game. In the case of a quick robo expand I like to just Spine up and skip the upgrade and get a Lair faster for quicker Mutalisks. If he is going for an 8 gate all in, you just get the third really late and go bonkers on units and take a third once you feel safe. If he is going for a 2 gate Stargate opening, you obviously can't take a quick third so you just rely on lings and Roaches to keep his natural down for as long as possible until you are safe to get a third. If you feel reasonably safe or you are preparing for a push, just put down the third, you can cancel it if he pushes quickly anyway. You just really need to be fluent about your building decisions, taking something out of the equation to be safe against what you scout. You will only really get this fluentness if you play a lot and your decision making gets better. ZvP is the match up that relies the most on your decision making, and you need a pretty large map of the match up to really make these decisions. What I give you is a small part of that map, and perhaps eventually I will have the full map laid out for you. But to be fair, I'm probably not even 30% there of what the match up will be shifting on every decision a Protoss player can make and such. I'll try to get it fully out there for you guys, but right now I need to get a good grasp of Infestor styles and Burrow play and perhaps Broodlord control. Sorry if this answer is little more than vague, but it's just tough to know the perfect decisions for everything a Protoss can do right now. That answer ist totally fine for me Thats why I mentioned that my question is really "general", i didnt expect more than a vague answer, just because its very hard to give a precise one I'm also not a friend of food counts and shifted my builds / game-sense towards saturation, which is a much better sign for the current situation in the game, so im not sad that you arent relying on exact food counts or big-ass build orders. The statement i read out, as i like to shorten things up and put them in bold letters: 1. Much more dynamic style compared to FFE -> Scouting and adapting even more important 2. Using "the old rules" regarding expands as a guideline: Expand when you defended a push or expand when you push yourself I think i will still use the old-fashioned destiny style with fast ling-upgrades and either Infestor or Mutas from 2-Base against GW-Expands. I did and do it all the time since this came up. Maybe fungal isnt that strong since the nerf, but it still can give you the safetyness like the roaches do in your FFE style, you can expand behind infested terran / ling pressure and you're setup for your late-game. Against Robo, Mutas are of course the first choice to go. Dont know what the pros think about this aggressive 2-base style, but i feel against GW-Expand its still viable. OFC its always better to react exactly to your opponents build, but against GW-Expands this can be sometimes very hard to execute, since stuff tends to hit you much more earlier and reaction time is shorter. So with mentioning the old-school Destiny-build, i just wanted to point out a safe way to play this MU, without putting yourself too much behind. Anyways, BTT: Thank you very much for your answer, i really like reading your lines and your mentality towards the game ! Looking for more to come Greetz! Edit: Format | ||
|
ohokurwrong
Brazil283 Posts
| ||
|
Chaosvuistje
Netherlands2581 Posts
On November 30 2011 18:35 ohokurwrong wrote: cool stoof but whats with "the fall of the first born" is this a wow ref? It's just in lieu with the titles I give my guides. ZvZ was the Alpha and the Omega, ZvT was Survival of the Patient, ZvP was Aiurs Armageddon. I couldn't just go 'Shakuras Sunset' because then there wouldn't be any Protoss planets left to destroy in possible future guide titles  .In the SC lore, the Protoss were the first beings created by the Xel naga, Zerg was the second creation by them. So 'First born' aims towards the Protoss, rather than any wow ref I might have accidently made. | ||
|
deMONk
45 Posts
| ||
|
RaiZ
2813 Posts
I'm talking about the usefullness of going hatch first against pool first. I think there was a topic not so long ago showing how much minerals you gain from doing those builds. That hatch first was slightly better economic-wise but was purely nullified by the time you would be sending a drone to prevent any pylon walls. In your guide you're mentionning 2(!) drones scouting around your hatch which in others words means you're simply doing a worse build than pool first. Hope you don't find that post a bit too harsh, but i really needed to point it out. | ||
|
Chaosvuistje
Netherlands2581 Posts
On November 30 2011 21:16 RaiZ wrote: Okaaaaaaaaay. So tell me what's the point of going hatch first ? I'm not really sure you know exactly why you're doing hatch first against protoss... I'm sorry i know you wrote a guide and explaining your best as to why you're doing this and that, but if you're doing it wrong, then don't you think we need to review your overall gameplan ? I'm talking about the usefullness of going hatch first against pool first. I think there was a topic not so long ago showing how much minerals you gain from doing those builds. That hatch first was slightly better economic-wise but was purely nullified by the time you would be sending a drone to prevent any pylon walls. In your guide you're mentionning 2(!) drones scouting around your hatch which in others words means you're simply doing a worse build than pool first. Hope you don't find that post a bit too harsh, but i really needed to point it out. I just like my hatch down before any pylon blocks. I feel 14-16 can be rather restrictive in decision making if you still get pylon blocked. Don't get me wrong, I will definitely go pool first if the Protoss scouts me first. Because you just can't block a pylon from going down that way. I find going 14-16 if you get the hatch down instantly to be great, but that relies on the Protoss not scouting you on the 2nd base. I'm not saying you need to get the 50 mineral advantage of a hatch first to even execute these things, that would be insane. I don't find your post to be harsh, but I find the fact that you are only really talking about my opening kind of offensive, while you seem to neglect any other aspect of the entire guide. Go ahead and stomp all over my wrong doings, thats what critique is like. But I prefer critique that cuts right to the core of an article, not just a single paragraph of it. That's my take on it. | ||
|
Kyp
Germany2 Posts
| ||
|
Arcanefrost
Belgium1257 Posts
| ||
|
RaiZ
2813 Posts
On November 30 2011 23:35 Chaosvuistje wrote: I just like my hatch down before any pylon blocks. I feel 14-16 can be rather restrictive in decision making if you still get pylon blocked. Don't get me wrong, I will definitely go pool first if the Protoss scouts me first. Because you just can't block a pylon from going down that way. I find going 14-16 if you get the hatch down instantly to be great, but that relies on the Protoss not scouting you on the 2nd base. I'm not saying you need to get the 50 mineral advantage of a hatch first to even execute these things, that would be insane. I don't find your post to be harsh, but I find the fact that you are only really talking about my opening kind of offensive, while you seem to neglect any other aspect of the entire guide. Go ahead and stomp all over my wrong doings, thats what critique is like. But I prefer critique that cuts right to the core of an article, not just a single paragraph of it. That's my take on it. Okay i understand, still i find that the build order is the core of any strategy. I did some tests, the only maps that work are antiga and Taldarim, and to a lesser extent abyssal Cavern (providing he doesn't scout you in the first try AND you managed to not get your overlord sighted). Otherwise you get hatchery blocked on every map. Doesn't matter if you put it down @ 14 drones. Oh and did i mention that you can canon rush in the bottom terrain of Taldarim ? Yeah that's a lot of annoying things that prevent me from going hatch first. I finally told myself : why bother when you can have ur hatch down later with glings ? By the way, nice guide. I can easily tell a friend to read your guide  | ||
|
Chaosvuistje
Netherlands2581 Posts
On December 01 2011 05:11 RaiZ wrote: Okay i understand, still i find that the build order is the core of any strategy. I did some tests, the only maps that work are antiga and Taldarim, and to a lesser extent abyssal Cavern (providing he doesn't scout you in the first try AND you managed to not get your overlord sighted). Otherwise you get hatchery blocked on every map. Doesn't matter if you put it down @ 14 drones. Oh and did i mention that you can canon rush in the bottom terrain of Taldarim ? Yeah that's a lot of annoying things that prevent me from going hatch first. I finally told myself : why bother when you can have ur hatch down later with glings ? By the way, nice guide. I can easily tell a friend to read your guide I can understand that there are indeed a lot of ways you can punish hatch first like low ground cannon creeping, but I still feel it is managable if you take out the probe that moves up to build more cannons/get vision for them. Yes, stopping cannon rushes is really hard. But I like the game that way, it's why I love Zergling/Baneling wars so much. I finally get to micro instead of the endless positioning -> a move -> occasional focusfire that Zerg has to do. Besides, you can get quite a lead if you stop a cannon rush. Not to mention the lead you have on gateway first openings by default. Of course that means you will have a lot of silly losses when you still suck at defending cannon rushes. Hell I still suck at it and get the occasional loss from that punk that got to high masters by cannon rushing/4 gating. But I find cannon rushes to be only marginally easier to deal with if I go 14-16. The only benefit of going 14-16 in that regard is that idiots don't just insta-cannon rush you because they don't see a pool down. Frankly, Protoss' average response to hatch first is either to overreact with gateway units or to just cannon rush because that's what gets them ladder points. If they fail I get a large advantage and carry that into a win, if I fail I'll accept those cannon rush losses and ask for re's, some protoss players will obligue ( and still cannon rush me in custom games because appearantly wasting time is even better when you get no reward for it ). But hey, that's how I choose to open my ZvP's out. Just living on the edge of constant shrub induced rage because I'm the one messing up my micro so much. I can totally see why people would prefer to never deal with cannon rushes though. I just don't see the need to evade that part of the game when I could reap an advantage out of it when I don't mess up. | ||
|
RaiZ
2813 Posts
| ||
|
Chaosvuistje
Netherlands2581 Posts
On December 01 2011 08:30 RaiZ wrote: Which advantages exactly may i ask ? Cauz 4 drones chasing down that probe is like what ? 200 minerals loss per minute ? That's quite a lot if you ask me... I have an advantage when I hold a cannon rush because his cybercore is delayed, otherwise I have a slight econ difficiency compared to a 14-16 with all drones on minerals. It's a trade off. | ||
|
thesideshow
930 Posts
| ||
|
Chaosvuistje
Netherlands2581 Posts
On December 04 2011 05:50 thesideshow wrote: Do you have any replays or any suggestions where to watch a bit of this style? Roach ling feels really fragile to me, I'm sure I'm doing something wrong. I do, give me some time to upload them I'll edit this post soon enough for some replays.Edit: http://drop.sc/68038 vs a relatively fast collosus. Edit2: http://drop.sc/68039 6gate dt into collosus with a third win http://drop.sc/68040 vs an immortal stalker push I can get more if you want. | ||
|
joeyBanana
Germany77 Posts
| ||
|
Chaosvuistje
Netherlands2581 Posts
On December 05 2011 02:55 joeyBanana wrote: i would love to see a whole pack, if you mind releasing it I am working on a replay pack ^^ I just need more games that don't end in... cannon rushes failing >.> Edit: Sheth is using a similar style right now at the IPL showmatch vs Kiwikaki -> http://www.teamliquid.net/video/streams/IGNProLeague | ||
|
thesideshow
930 Posts
On December 05 2011 02:36 Chaosvuistje wrote: I do, give me some time to upload them I'll edit this post soon enough for some replays.Edit: http://drop.sc/68038 vs a relatively fast collosus. Edit2: http://drop.sc/68039 6gate dt into collosus with a third win http://drop.sc/68040 vs an immortal stalker push I can get more if you want. Thanks! I was having problems with immortal stalkers <3 | ||
|
Chaosvuistje
Netherlands2581 Posts
On December 06 2011 20:17 thesideshow wrote: Thanks! I was having problems with immortal stalkers <3 You're welcome hope you can learn a thing or two from the reps. | ||
| ||
