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Zerg versus Protoss Midgame guide - Fall of the First born
Alright, so my previous Zerg versus Protoss got a lot of critique from the community both for including balance whining and a lack of a real midgame explanation. This guide is meant to fill that large midgame hole and to learn from my mistakes of balance whining in guides. It was a valuable learning experience and I am thankful I have only gotten a relatively low amount of negativity for it. Let's just say that you'll stop being spiteful agains players and you will get a lot more admiration for certain figures in the community that don't get a lot of slack, like Incontrol, and stand in the fire heroicly.
I've been through a whole learning process in ZvP lately, mainly in my way of macroing. I used to rely on 2 base attacks to get by, and I switched over to 3 base style. The recent ZvP guide about Roach-Ling-Muta by decaf was also a large inspiration to this guide, and I'm almost certain that a Spire style is the best possible against Robo based 2 base from Protoss now.
This guide is about a rather common situation, where you are going 3 base against a FFE. The link is down here
http://raa-media.nl/blog/starcraft2/zvp-fall-of-first-born
I've also added a little bit about my style in the time before I got into 3 basing a lot, my trusted Baneling bust against Forge Fast Expanding. So here's an excerpt from that short bit:
Baneling bust against FFE This is one of those openings that is great for punishing fast teching off of a forge fast expand. It isn't stable against all kinds of builds but it's great to throw in every now and then. The build starts off with a hatch first, which seems like quite a passive build from Protoss' point of view. This ofcourse is one of thise assumptions that will kill you brutally as Protoss if you cut corners like skipping that second sentry. Build order
9 Overlord
14 Hatch
15 Spawning pool
17 Gas – Put 3 drones in gas when finished
18 Overlord
Drones until around 25 – Lings after that
Start Baneling nest when you have enough gas
Start second Extractor when starting Baneling nest – Put 3 drones on gas.
So what abou...Cannon rushes? Well here's the thing, if he does a cannon rush and you defend it with decent drone micro ( which you should have if you go for hatch first ) you can easily capitalize on the fact that his gateway and sentries are delayed. I've wrote a good bit about how to stop cannon rushes in my other ZvP guide: http://raa-media.nl/blog/starcraft2/zvp-aiurs-armageddon#fevscannonrushOnce you get speed and get the Baneling nest, you start the second gas and mine from both until you have 350 gas or so. You need 14 Banelings to kill off a Cybernetics core, which is the highest value target in this kind of rush. Not only will killing the Cybernetics core force him to rebuild it, it will stop him from making Sentries which are required to deal with Banelings and high amounts of Zerglings. If the Cybernetics core isn't in the wall you will want to go for the Forge and gateway. Make sure you hit between it to get the maximum efficiency. Both of these buildings have less health than the Cybernetics core, so you can lose a couple of Banelings and still be okay. Make sure you never show your high amount of lings to him. If that does happen it might startle him into making a second Sentry in which case you just jepardized your whole gameplan, well done  . Morph the Banelings near his base but out of his vision. Make sure that you keep a couple of lings out of his base to kill scouting probes. Once you are ready, move in with your lings before the Banelings and attack a building you don't want to blow up with Banelings to try and lure out a forcefield. The best possible time to attack is when warp gate finishes, so you can kill the cybercore before he can warp in Stalkers or Sentries. Which means he will be stuck on Zealots for a long long time, and you have Banelings to deal with those. Once Speedlings are in his base, you really shouldn't let him live and kill off anything you can while flooding in with more and more lings. You could just go for a macro game if you so desire, but your tech will be so very behind that you probably won't be able to defend against every option the Protoss has. Replays: http://www.mediafire.com/file/nqu7fr55rvplbmt/Blingbust.rar
I hope you can learn something from this article. GL HF & Thanks for reading
Edit: fixed the link, damn you T button!
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Another fantastic guide Chaos!
I'm guessing from your recent posts, and your neglect to mention it you aren't a big fan of Ling+Bling /w drop style mid-game? If you don't mind me asking, what's turned you away from it?
Playing at a low-mid Masters level I've been struggling to make it work, I'm not even sure if MorroW plays that style anymore, the only person I know of who uses it regularly (Asides from players like Leenock who do it in addition to Muta+Ling) would be Snute, if you've been watching any of his stream lately he's had a lot of success with it.
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Very nice guide, covering pretty much all the protoss strategies.
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Time for you to switch to Protoss, I'd like somebody writing stuff like this for us!
Looks really neat, gonna read it too!
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On November 30 2011 04:33 Pteppic wrote:
Another fantastic guide Chaos!
I'm guessing from your recent posts, and your neglect to mention it you aren't a big fan of Ling+Bling /w drop style mid-game? If you don't mind me asking, what's turned you away from it?
Playing at a low-mid Masters level I've been struggling to make it work, I'm not even sure if MorroW plays that style anymore, the only person I know of who uses it regularly (Asides from players like Leenock who do it in addition to Muta+Ling) would be Snute, if you've been watching any of his stream lately he's had a lot of success with it.
I've moved away from that style due to it being far too fragile for my liking.
Zerglings need to be well carapace upgraded for them to matter against Zealots and Sentries deal with them both very nicely. On top of that, Collosus builds completely wreck Ling+Bling builds due to them taking a lot of Baneling hits to die. Phoenixes deny drop play very nicely too, which is kind of the crutch of that build.
And Protosses have become much better at moving their probes away from +2 baneling drops, so they are, sadly, no longer a free win anymore  .
Because of it's inflexibility I moved over to a different style that has a solid base for dealing with all of Protoss' options, something that was severely lacking in my midgame before.
On November 30 2011 04:47 ToastieNL wrote:
Time for you to switch to Protoss, I'd like somebody writing stuff like this for us!
Looks really neat, gonna read it too!
I did switch to Protoss a while ago, but I didn't like any of the match ups except for PvP :/ The race feels too rigid in its reliance on doing overwhelming pushes rather than multipronged harass and counter attacks like Zerg and Terran. It's too boring for me, so I switched back to Zerg after about 30 games.
I'm not saying it's a bad race, just not my kind of race .
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Man, you really put some hard work in to your guides. It's great to see.
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this is actually a damn good guide on a damn solid style. very nice!
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Thanks! Between your upgrade tips in the "help me" thread and this guide I'm feeling more confident in ZvP these days.
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hehe i read "zvp midgame guide" and first thing I see is baneling busts xD
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GRAND OLD AMERICA16375 Posts
I have been stuck with my zvp. Thanks fpr the help!
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Awesome guide, and yeah, I was mislead by the baneling bust example in the OP too, haha...
I've always had, and always will have trouble with this matchup. Midgame toss is just so damn good, it feels like I win in the early game or I don't win at all.
Maybe I'll try playing with spires more to see if my luck changes. Thank you for this.
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On November 30 2011 05:47 Br3ezy wrote:
hehe i read "zvp midgame guide" and first thing I see is baneling busts xD
Haha yeah, it was kind of an odd choice to put it there, but it was the only bit in the article that displayed a strategy in a reasonably short space. And I really wanted to put a nice Baneling Bust strategy out there, so I took the chance here
To anyone wondering, there's actually a solid strategy in the link, not just a cheesy build XD
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baneling busts are only going to be effective on a few maps like metalopolis or xel naga where ffe is dangerous and cannons cant cover your walloff completely. usually 1 sentry is all protoss needs to hold this.
edit: lol completely missed the link to the guide. holy crap, nice guide
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Thanks for mentioning me in your guide
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I'm a bit confused...is the whole guide assuming protoss did forge expand? If not, what part is and what part isn't? Obviously you can't play the exact same if the protoss didn't forge expand.
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On November 30 2011 07:04 CtrlAltDefeat wrote:
I'm a bit confused...is the whole guide assuming protoss did forge expand? If not, what part is and what part isn't? Obviously you can't play the exact same if the protoss didn't forge expand.
Pretty much all of the guide assumes that the Protoss FFE's. I generally take my macro hatchery before my third if I am up against gateway openings because the timings come a little bit faster. I find Gateway openings to be very easy to punish in a lot of ways compared to quick FFE's, the only thing that gets more difficult is defending a well timed 6+ gateway push.
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An excellent guide. I only wish you posted it a couple days ago, I think it would have saved me a couple losses.
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Great Guide, Sir. Really appreciate the work you put into the development of your Guides. Imho its time for you to get blue 
Just a question considering the drone count: You said about 54 to 56 drones. Just to make things clear, although this question might seem stupid: You mean 3 base and 3 geysirs (with the aforementioned drone count) to support Roach/Ling production and defending a 2base push or pressure his 3rd and after that following your advice considering the different choices that P can make. (Robo, Twilight, etc. -> Mutas, Festors [Getting Geysir 4 to 6], Spines, getting a fourth etc. on our side as a reaction)
Edit: Just a little, tiny gameplan i made up in my mind, to make my point above clear, what steps you take and how you structure your approach. Correct me please, if i did understand something wrong:
1. Drone up to 54 and 56 on 3Base/1Macro-Hatch // Get 3 Geysirs (Although: Gas timings are "fluid" and reactionary considering your economy / opponent)
1b. Scout and stay safe while doing that -> Figure out what the opponent is doing
2. Build up a good Roach number to just stay alive / be safe -> Support with "Zergling flood" if P is pushing out
3. Follow up with the appropriate reaction to his build (i.e. 4th to 6th Geysir, Mutas, Infestors, 4th, Hive, etc. pp.)
And regarding a GW - Expand: The thing you adapt is takin' a macro hatch, instead of your early third, as i could read it out of your answer. Im just wondering what the best time is to take an actual third?! Ive got quite my problems with that, because i cant get a feel when to do it and when not. A really general question, but is there some rule of thumb like "If he pushes out and i defend, i can safely expand" or "Expand before he pushes, to overwhelm him with my production capability" ? The last argument would fit into the whole "ALWAYS stay one base ahead" - doctrine, which most Zergs follow. Whats your opinion on that point ? (Again, talking about GW - Expand only)
Again, thank you for your great work for the community !!
Greetz
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You've helped me so much with your other guides, ty!
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I love the guide, but a little more detail on how to play vs gateway first openings would be really nice for people on the ladder who run into them most often.
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On November 30 2011 12:04 joeyBanana wrote:Great Guide, Sir. Really appreciate the work you put into the development of your Guides. Imho its time for you to get blue
If that is what you feel then you should post in the thread in the Website Feedback section I think that thread in general doesn't get much love. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=193853
On November 30 2011 12:04 joeyBanana wrote:
Just a question considering the drone count: You said about 54 to 56 drones. Just to make things clear, although this question might seem stupid: You mean 3 base and 3 geysirs (with the aforementioned drone count) to support Roach/Ling production and defending a 2base push or pressure his 3rd and after that following your advice considering the different choices that P can make. (Robo, Twilight, etc. -> Mutas, Festors [Getting Geysir 4 to 6], Spines, getting a fourth etc. on our side as a reaction)
Edit: Just a little, tiny gameplan i made up in my mind, to make my point above clear, what steps you take and how you structure your approach. Correct me please, if i did understand something wrong:
1. Drone up to 54 and 56 on 3Base/1Macro-Hatch // Get 3 Geysirs (Although: Gas timings are "fluid" and reactionary considering your economy / opponent)
1b. Scout and stay safe while doing that -> Figure out what the opponent is doing
2. Build up a good Roach number to just stay alive / be safe -> Support with "Zergling flood" if P is pushing out
3. Follow up with the appropriate reaction to his build (i.e. 4th to 6th Geysir, Mutas, Infestors, 4th, Hive, etc. pp.)
That is what I mean yeah ^^ you summed it up quite nicely actually.
I might alter it in the future on newer maps, but that is my general approach to a FFE opponent.
On November 30 2011 12:04 joeyBanana wrote:
And regarding a GW - Expand: The thing you adapt is takin' a macro hatch, instead of your early third, as i could read it out of your answer. Im just wondering what the best time is to take an actual third?! Ive got quite my problems with that, because i cant get a feel when to do it and when not. A really general question, but is there some rule of thumb like "If he pushes out and i defend, i can safely expand" or "Expand before he pushes, to overwhelm him with my production capability" ? The last argument would fit into the whole "ALWAYS stay one base ahead" - doctrine, which most Zergs follow. Whats your opinion on that point ? (Again, talking about GW - Expand only)
Again, thank you for your great work for the community !!
Greetz
Because my builds generally do not rely on my food but more on my income, that question is quite difficult to answer in a forum post where people want to see a number on when to take your third. But the truth is, it differs a lot for me. In general though I do not take a third before the 30 food mark because I feel it sets my 2 base economy back too much and you have to drone up more to get that macro advantage again.
Gateway Expands differ a lot from one another, 3 Gate expand being the worst, while 1 Gate expand is the best economy wise. He could be following it up with a quick double Stargate or an 8 gate push. Or he could be going Gate-Robo-Nexus and go for quick Collosus, or go 2 Gate Stargate Expand. All of these require different compromises. Against an FFE, you can just take 3 geysers, 55 drones, 4 hatches, lair and roaches safely, against a Gateway opening, you have to sacrifice one or two of those things.
If you don't know if he is expanding yet or not and you went hatch first, just put down two Spinecrawlers to tell him that 4 gate aint going to work. If he does go for a 4 gate in true ladder-player style, you won't auto lose if you made more than 20 drones. If he has cognitive abilities past that of a dolphin, he will just scratch that possibility out of his mind for this game.
In the case of a quick robo expand I like to just Spine up and skip the upgrade and get a Lair faster for quicker Mutalisks. If he is going for an 8 gate all in, you just get the third really late and go bonkers on units and take a third once you feel safe. If he is going for a 2 gate Stargate opening, you obviously can't take a quick third so you just rely on lings and Roaches to keep his natural down for as long as possible until you are safe to get a third. If you feel reasonably safe or you are preparing for a push, just put down the third, you can cancel it if he pushes quickly anyway.
You just really need to be fluent about your building decisions, taking something out of the equation to be safe against what you scout. You will only really get this fluentness if you play a lot and your decision making gets better. ZvP is the match up that relies the most on your decision making, and you need a pretty large map of the match up to really make these decisions. What I give you is a small part of that map, and perhaps eventually I will have the full map laid out for you. But to be fair, I'm probably not even 30% there of what the match up will be shifting on every decision a Protoss player can make and such. I'll try to get it fully out there for you guys, but right now I need to get a good grasp of Infestor styles and Burrow play and perhaps Broodlord control.
Sorry if this answer is little more than vague, but it's just tough to know the perfect decisions for everything a Protoss can do right now.
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+ Show Spoiler +On November 30 2011 18:10 Chaosvuistje wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2011 12:04 joeyBanana wrote:Great Guide, Sir. Really appreciate the work you put into the development of your Guides. Imho its time for you to get blue If that is what you feel then you should post in the thread in the Website Feedback section I think that thread in general doesn't get much love. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=193853Show nested quote +On November 30 2011 12:04 joeyBanana wrote:
Just a question considering the drone count: You said about 54 to 56 drones. Just to make things clear, although this question might seem stupid: You mean 3 base and 3 geysirs (with the aforementioned drone count) to support Roach/Ling production and defending a 2base push or pressure his 3rd and after that following your advice considering the different choices that P can make. (Robo, Twilight, etc. -> Mutas, Festors [Getting Geysir 4 to 6], Spines, getting a fourth etc. on our side as a reaction)
Edit: Just a little, tiny gameplan i made up in my mind, to make my point above clear, what steps you take and how you structure your approach. Correct me please, if i did understand something wrong:
1. Drone up to 54 and 56 on 3Base/1Macro-Hatch // Get 3 Geysirs (Although: Gas timings are "fluid" and reactionary considering your economy / opponent)
1b. Scout and stay safe while doing that -> Figure out what the opponent is doing
2. Build up a good Roach number to just stay alive / be safe -> Support with "Zergling flood" if P is pushing out
3. Follow up with the appropriate reaction to his build (i.e. 4th to 6th Geysir, Mutas, Infestors, 4th, Hive, etc. pp.)
That is what I mean yeah ^^ you summed it up quite nicely actually. I might alter it in the future on newer maps, but that is my general approach to a FFE opponent. Show nested quote +On November 30 2011 12:04 joeyBanana wrote:
And regarding a GW - Expand: The thing you adapt is takin' a macro hatch, instead of your early third, as i could read it out of your answer. Im just wondering what the best time is to take an actual third?! Ive got quite my problems with that, because i cant get a feel when to do it and when not. A really general question, but is there some rule of thumb like "If he pushes out and i defend, i can safely expand" or "Expand before he pushes, to overwhelm him with my production capability" ? The last argument would fit into the whole "ALWAYS stay one base ahead" - doctrine, which most Zergs follow. Whats your opinion on that point ? (Again, talking about GW - Expand only)
Again, thank you for your great work for the community !!
Greetz Because my builds generally do not rely on my food but more on my income, that question is quite difficult to answer in a forum post where people want to see a number on when to take your third. But the truth is, it differs a lot for me. In general though I do not take a third before the 30 food mark because I feel it sets my 2 base economy back too much and you have to drone up more to get that macro advantage again. Gateway Expands differ a lot from one another, 3 Gate expand being the worst, while 1 Gate expand is the best economy wise. He could be following it up with a quick double Stargate or an 8 gate push. Or he could be going Gate-Robo-Nexus and go for quick Collosus, or go 2 Gate Stargate Expand. All of these require different compromises. Against an FFE, you can just take 3 geysers, 55 drones, 4 hatches, lair and roaches safely, against a Gateway opening, you have to sacrifice one or two of those things. If you don't know if he is expanding yet or not and you went hatch first, just put down two Spinecrawlers to tell him that 4 gate aint going to work. If he does go for a 4 gate in true ladder-player style, you won't auto lose if you made more than 20 drones. If he has cognitive abilities past that of a dolphin, he will just scratch that possibility out of his mind for this game. In the case of a quick robo expand I like to just Spine up and skip the upgrade and get a Lair faster for quicker Mutalisks. If he is going for an 8 gate all in, you just get the third really late and go bonkers on units and take a third once you feel safe. If he is going for a 2 gate Stargate opening, you obviously can't take a quick third so you just rely on lings and Roaches to keep his natural down for as long as possible until you are safe to get a third. If you feel reasonably safe or you are preparing for a push, just put down the third, you can cancel it if he pushes quickly anyway. You just really need to be fluent about your building decisions, taking something out of the equation to be safe against what you scout. You will only really get this fluentness if you play a lot and your decision making gets better. ZvP is the match up that relies the most on your decision making, and you need a pretty large map of the match up to really make these decisions. What I give you is a small part of that map, and perhaps eventually I will have the full map laid out for you. But to be fair, I'm probably not even 30% there of what the match up will be shifting on every decision a Protoss player can make and such. I'll try to get it fully out there for you guys, but right now I need to get a good grasp of Infestor styles and Burrow play and perhaps Broodlord control. Sorry if this answer is little more than vague, but it's just tough to know the perfect decisions for everything a Protoss can do right now.
That answer ist totally fine for me Thats why I mentioned that my question is really "general", i didnt expect more than a vague answer, just because its very hard to give a precise one I'm also not a friend of food counts and shifted my builds / game-sense towards saturation, which is a much better sign for the current situation in the game, so im not sad that you arent relying on exact food counts or big-ass build orders.
The statement i read out, as i like to shorten things up and put them in bold letters:
1. Much more dynamic style compared to FFE -> Scouting and adapting even more important
2. Using "the old rules" regarding expands as a guideline: Expand when you defended a push or expand when you push yourself
I think i will still use the old-fashioned destiny style with fast ling-upgrades and either Infestor or Mutas from 2-Base against GW-Expands. I did and do it all the time since this came up. Maybe fungal isnt that strong since the nerf, but it still can give you the safetyness like the roaches do in your FFE style, you can expand behind infested terran / ling pressure and you're setup for your late-game. Against Robo, Mutas are of course the first choice to go. Dont know what the pros think about this aggressive 2-base style, but i feel against GW-Expand its still viable.
OFC its always better to react exactly to your opponents build, but against GW-Expands this can be sometimes very hard to execute, since stuff tends to hit you much more earlier and reaction time is shorter. So with mentioning the old-school Destiny-build, i just wanted to point out a safe way to play this MU, without putting yourself too much behind.
Anyways, BTT: Thank you very much for your answer, i really like reading your lines and your mentality towards the game ! Looking for more to come
Greetz!
Edit: Format
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cool stoof but whats with "the fall of the first born" is this a wow ref?
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On November 30 2011 18:35 ohokurwrong wrote:
cool stoof but whats with "the fall of the first born" is this a wow ref?
It's just in lieu with the titles I give my guides. ZvZ was the Alpha and the Omega, ZvT was Survival of the Patient, ZvP was Aiurs Armageddon. I couldn't just go 'Shakuras Sunset' because then there wouldn't be any Protoss planets left to destroy in possible future guide titles  .
In the SC lore, the Protoss were the first beings created by the Xel naga, Zerg was the second creation by them. So 'First born' aims towards the Protoss, rather than any wow ref I might have accidently made.
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I don't normally reply to guides, but I read through the entirety of this one and it's beautiful!
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Okaaaaaaaaay. So tell me what's the point of going hatch first ? I'm not really sure you know exactly why you're doing hatch first against protoss... I'm sorry i know you wrote a guide and explaining your best as to why you're doing this and that, but if you're doing it wrong, then don't you think we need to review your overall gameplan ?
I'm talking about the usefullness of going hatch first against pool first. I think there was a topic not so long ago showing how much minerals you gain from doing those builds. That hatch first was slightly better economic-wise but was purely nullified by the time you would be sending a drone to prevent any pylon walls. In your guide you're mentionning 2(!) drones scouting around your hatch which in others words means you're simply doing a worse build than pool first.
Hope you don't find that post a bit too harsh, but i really needed to point it out.
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On November 30 2011 21:16 RaiZ wrote:
Okaaaaaaaaay. So tell me what's the point of going hatch first ? I'm not really sure you know exactly why you're doing hatch first against protoss... I'm sorry i know you wrote a guide and explaining your best as to why you're doing this and that, but if you're doing it wrong, then don't you think we need to review your overall gameplan ?
I'm talking about the usefullness of going hatch first against pool first. I think there was a topic not so long ago showing how much minerals you gain from doing those builds. That hatch first was slightly better economic-wise but was purely nullified by the time you would be sending a drone to prevent any pylon walls. In your guide you're mentionning 2(!) drones scouting around your hatch which in others words means you're simply doing a worse build than pool first.
Hope you don't find that post a bit too harsh, but i really needed to point it out.
I just like my hatch down before any pylon blocks. I feel 14-16 can be rather restrictive in decision making if you still get pylon blocked.
Don't get me wrong, I will definitely go pool first if the Protoss scouts me first. Because you just can't block a pylon from going down that way. I find going 14-16 if you get the hatch down instantly to be great, but that relies on the Protoss not scouting you on the 2nd base.
I'm not saying you need to get the 50 mineral advantage of a hatch first to even execute these things, that would be insane. I don't find your post to be harsh, but I find the fact that you are only really talking about my opening kind of offensive, while you seem to neglect any other aspect of the entire guide.
Go ahead and stomp all over my wrong doings, thats what critique is like. But I prefer critique that cuts right to the core of an article, not just a single paragraph of it. That's my take on it.
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Thank you, the 3rd timing with two ovis while getting supply blocked is really handy
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On November 30 2011 23:35 Chaosvuistje wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2011 21:16 RaiZ wrote:
Okaaaaaaaaay. So tell me what's the point of going hatch first ? I'm not really sure you know exactly why you're doing hatch first against protoss... I'm sorry i know you wrote a guide and explaining your best as to why you're doing this and that, but if you're doing it wrong, then don't you think we need to review your overall gameplan ?
I'm talking about the usefullness of going hatch first against pool first. I think there was a topic not so long ago showing how much minerals you gain from doing those builds. That hatch first was slightly better economic-wise but was purely nullified by the time you would be sending a drone to prevent any pylon walls. In your guide you're mentionning 2(!) drones scouting around your hatch which in others words means you're simply doing a worse build than pool first.
Hope you don't find that post a bit too harsh, but i really needed to point it out. I just like my hatch down before any pylon blocks. I feel 14-16 can be rather restrictive in decision making if you still get pylon blocked. Don't get me wrong, I will definitely go pool first if the Protoss scouts me first. Because you just can't block a pylon from going down that way. I find going 14-16 if you get the hatch down instantly to be great, but that relies on the Protoss not scouting you on the 2nd base. I'm not saying you need to get the 50 mineral advantage of a hatch first to even execute these things, that would be insane. I don't find your post to be harsh, but I find the fact that you are only really talking about my opening kind of offensive, while you seem to neglect any other aspect of the entire guide. Go ahead and stomp all over my wrong doings, thats what critique is like. But I prefer critique that cuts right to the core of an article, not just a single paragraph of it. That's my take on it.
Okay i understand, still i find that the build order is the core of any strategy.
I did some tests, the only maps that work are antiga and Taldarim, and to a lesser extent abyssal Cavern (providing he doesn't scout you in the first try AND you managed to not get your overlord sighted). Otherwise you get hatchery blocked on every map. Doesn't matter if you put it down @ 14 drones. Oh and did i mention that you can canon rush in the bottom terrain of Taldarim ? Yeah that's a lot of annoying things that prevent me from going hatch first.
I finally told myself : why bother when you can have ur hatch down later with glings ?
By the way, nice guide. I can easily tell a friend to read your guide 
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On December 01 2011 05:11 RaiZ wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2011 23:35 Chaosvuistje wrote:On November 30 2011 21:16 RaiZ wrote:
Okaaaaaaaaay. So tell me what's the point of going hatch first ? I'm not really sure you know exactly why you're doing hatch first against protoss... I'm sorry i know you wrote a guide and explaining your best as to why you're doing this and that, but if you're doing it wrong, then don't you think we need to review your overall gameplan ?
I'm talking about the usefullness of going hatch first against pool first. I think there was a topic not so long ago showing how much minerals you gain from doing those builds. That hatch first was slightly better economic-wise but was purely nullified by the time you would be sending a drone to prevent any pylon walls. In your guide you're mentionning 2(!) drones scouting around your hatch which in others words means you're simply doing a worse build than pool first.
Hope you don't find that post a bit too harsh, but i really needed to point it out. I just like my hatch down before any pylon blocks. I feel 14-16 can be rather restrictive in decision making if you still get pylon blocked. Don't get me wrong, I will definitely go pool first if the Protoss scouts me first. Because you just can't block a pylon from going down that way. I find going 14-16 if you get the hatch down instantly to be great, but that relies on the Protoss not scouting you on the 2nd base. I'm not saying you need to get the 50 mineral advantage of a hatch first to even execute these things, that would be insane. I don't find your post to be harsh, but I find the fact that you are only really talking about my opening kind of offensive, while you seem to neglect any other aspect of the entire guide. Go ahead and stomp all over my wrong doings, thats what critique is like. But I prefer critique that cuts right to the core of an article, not just a single paragraph of it. That's my take on it. Okay i understand, still i find that the build order is the core of any strategy. I did some tests, the only maps that work are antiga and Taldarim, and to a lesser extent abyssal Cavern (providing he doesn't scout you in the first try AND you managed to not get your overlord sighted). Otherwise you get hatchery blocked on every map. Doesn't matter if you put it down @ 14 drones. Oh and did i mention that you can canon rush in the bottom terrain of Taldarim ? Yeah that's a lot of annoying things that prevent me from going hatch first. I finally told myself : why bother when you can have ur hatch down later with glings ? By the way, nice guide. I can easily tell a friend to read your guide
I can understand that there are indeed a lot of ways you can punish hatch first like low ground cannon creeping, but I still feel it is managable if you take out the probe that moves up to build more cannons/get vision for them.
Yes, stopping cannon rushes is really hard. But I like the game that way, it's why I love Zergling/Baneling wars so much. I finally get to micro instead of the endless positioning -> a move -> occasional focusfire that Zerg has to do. Besides, you can get quite a lead if you stop a cannon rush. Not to mention the lead you have on gateway first openings by default.
Of course that means you will have a lot of silly losses when you still suck at defending cannon rushes. Hell I still suck at it and get the occasional loss from that punk that got to high masters by cannon rushing/4 gating. But I find cannon rushes to be only marginally easier to deal with if I go 14-16. The only benefit of going 14-16 in that regard is that idiots don't just insta-cannon rush you because they don't see a pool down.
Frankly, Protoss' average response to hatch first is either to overreact with gateway units or to just cannon rush because that's what gets them ladder points. If they fail I get a large advantage and carry that into a win, if I fail I'll accept those cannon rush losses and ask for re's, some protoss players will obligue ( and still cannon rush me in custom games because appearantly wasting time is even better when you get no reward for it ). But hey, that's how I choose to open my ZvP's out. Just living on the edge of constant shrub induced rage because I'm the one messing up my micro so much.
I can totally see why people would prefer to never deal with cannon rushes though. I just don't see the need to evade that part of the game when I could reap an advantage out of it when I don't mess up.
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Which advantages exactly may i ask ? Cauz 4 drones chasing down that probe is like what ? 200 minerals loss per minute ? That's quite a lot if you ask me...
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On December 01 2011 08:30 RaiZ wrote:
Which advantages exactly may i ask ? Cauz 4 drones chasing down that probe is like what ? 200 minerals loss per minute ? That's quite a lot if you ask me...
I have an advantage when I hold a cannon rush because his cybercore is delayed, otherwise I have a slight econ difficiency compared to a 14-16 with all drones on minerals. It's a trade off.
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Do you have any replays or any suggestions where to watch a bit of this style? Roach ling feels really fragile to me, I'm sure I'm doing something wrong.
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On December 04 2011 05:50 thesideshow wrote:
Do you have any replays or any suggestions where to watch a bit of this style? Roach ling feels really fragile to me, I'm sure I'm doing something wrong.
I do, give me some time to upload them I'll edit this post soon enough for some replays.
Edit:
http://drop.sc/68038 vs a relatively fast collosus.
Edit2:
http://drop.sc/68039 6gate dt into collosus with a third win
http://drop.sc/68040 vs an immortal stalker push
I can get more if you want.
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i would love to see a whole pack, if you mind releasing it
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On December 05 2011 02:55 joeyBanana wrote:i would love to see a whole pack, if you mind releasing it
I am working on a replay pack ^^ I just need more games that don't end in... cannon rushes failing >.>
Edit: Sheth is using a similar style right now at the IPL showmatch vs Kiwikaki -> http://www.teamliquid.net/video/streams/IGNProLeague
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On December 05 2011 02:36 Chaosvuistje wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2011 05:50 thesideshow wrote:
Do you have any replays or any suggestions where to watch a bit of this style? Roach ling feels really fragile to me, I'm sure I'm doing something wrong. I do, give me some time to upload them I'll edit this post soon enough for some replays. Edit: http://drop.sc/68038 vs a relatively fast collosus. Edit2: http://drop.sc/68039 6gate dt into collosus with a third win http://drop.sc/68040 vs an immortal stalker push I can get more if you want.
Thanks! I was having problems with immortal stalkers <3
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On December 06 2011 20:17 thesideshow wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2011 02:36 Chaosvuistje wrote:On December 04 2011 05:50 thesideshow wrote:
Do you have any replays or any suggestions where to watch a bit of this style? Roach ling feels really fragile to me, I'm sure I'm doing something wrong. I do, give me some time to upload them I'll edit this post soon enough for some replays. Edit: http://drop.sc/68038 vs a relatively fast collosus. Edit2: http://drop.sc/68039 6gate dt into collosus with a third win http://drop.sc/68040 vs an immortal stalker push I can get more if you want. Thanks! I was having problems with immortal stalkers <3
You're welcome hope you can learn a thing or two from the reps.
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Very informative guide. Most useful was the composition section. Some times you make it sound like zvp is easy lol need moar qq
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On December 07 2011 02:32 Spec wrote:
Very informative guide. Most useful was the composition section. Some times you make it sound like zvp is easy lol need moar qq
Well it isn't easy but it got easier the more comfortable I got with econ builds like hatch first or a quick 3rd. And general mechanics like good injects and such. And there is plenty of QQ in my original ZvP guide .
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EPT![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/9Z0nS.png)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/sdr1Y.png)
