EPT[D] Korean Meta ZvP Muta/Bling into Broodlord - Page 4
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People_0f_Color
177 Posts
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RoyalFlush
Canada109 Posts
about time I say and yeah its really not safe to go fast 3 base into muta right away unless you know its absolutely safe to do so against FFE any 2 base all in can kill/delay you so easily its not really viable which is why a lot of ppl go mass ling 3 base with spines and then into mutas later(very delayed) or 2 base muta which comes out a lot faster and safer and then possibly double expo after | ||
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Skyro
United States1823 Posts
Broodlords I also understand as for example you have already secured a sizable portion of your side of the map and now need a strong force to push your opponent and due to the sheer amount of bases you can win any ensuing base race. The Baneling transition however I do not understand. Storm by itself already does fantastic vs Banelings even without FF, and I fail to see what Banelings provide over Roaches, outside of maybe supply efficiency. On second thought, that probably is the exact reason. If the zerg gets to the point of containing the protoss and mass expanding enough so that resources are no longer a limiting factor Banelings do make a lot of sense in that regard. Allowing you to continually sink resources to quickly wipe out your opponents army, which them frees up supply to transition into something else if needed, like Broodlords. | ||
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rei
United States3594 Posts
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metagaming damn it all, change the title Chill!!!! | ||
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Ksyper
Bulgaria665 Posts
I really wanna see exactly how it goes, I'm keen on trying it out. | ||
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rei
United States3594 Posts
The strength of zerg having a ball of muta is that they can threaten a base trade anytime the protoss move out, and because zerg's production comes from hatcheries, they can have expansion on opposite of the map and when toss base trades with zerg, the zerg player can still product where as the protoss can't after warpgates are gone. Early on, Zerg can't safely get mutas out facing a 8gate protoss timing attack off fast expo. They would need either spines/lings or a roach/ling in maps that doesn't have small chokes. However, after a while, zergs starting to catch on to this attack timing, and they are able to derive a strategy in which they would have enough to stop the 8gate if it comes. Usually involves a group of lings picking off offensive pylons and delay the toss push while pumping roaches. After many zerg shown the ability to shut down the 8gate timing with ease, the protoss then stop relying on this gimmick and favors stargate/robo/twilight temple tech off few gateways. Which opens up the door for zerg to make the dreaded muta balls. The proper response the protoss should do is to do the 8gate, but never commit into attacking the zerg for real, just hang near a choke outside of zerg's base and keep building that ball of stalker/sentry up and take a 3rd. The pressure alone would force zerg to keep making roach/ling and unable to drone up their 3rd. with this there is no need to worry about mutalisks and bullshit base trade  | ||
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ChanmanV
United States1156 Posts
Also, the OP mentions banes which I think is not a good idea. The main reason it's not good is because it takes gas which would limit your muta production. Also, your opponent will have blink stalkers which are very cost effective against banes off creep. Banes against toss I believe are still only best used in dropping because of the full efficiency of the splash damage. Not to mention the impending HT transition will just nullify banes completely. The biggest thing to remember about this comp is that zerg typically wants to force a base trade scenario. in this situation. You want the protoss death ball to come into your main while your muta ling wreck their base. At the same time you've built a couple bases at the corners of the map. You'll never fight the army straight up with muta ling but your mobility will allow you a lot of the time to kill all his builds before you kills yours. This is the most common scenario Ive seen with muta ling. If you don't go base trade, then you have to transition to something else the minute you see HT and archons. Roach BLs and spines are probably the best thing to transition to from there. And the poster that got banned is absolutely right about watching the recent GSL games about how to play it wrong (nestea) and how to play it right (leenock). | ||
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rei
United States3594 Posts
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neoghaleon55
United States7435 Posts
On November 18 2011 04:11 rei wrote: Stop misusing the word metagame! Muta/Bling into Broodlord is a strategy, not a bloody metagame. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metagaming damn it all, change the title Chill!!!! You want to try this again rei? There is a special set of moves in chess which allows a player to win in four moves. Competitor A has been watching Competitor B play chess, and the past five games in a row Competitor B has attempted to use this four-move win. When Competitor A sits down to play against Competitor B, Competitor A will be metagaming if he/she plays in a way that will easily thwart the four-move checkmate before Competitor B makes it obvious that this is what he/she is doing. In the same sense, for a long time, GSL protoss favor sentries, collosi against zerg and can win with four moves. The meta game is using muta to "thwart" the collosi+sentries combination without making it obvious that this is what he/she is doing. | ||
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rei
United States3594 Posts
Competitor A is using Meta Game because of his outside of game observation giving him and advantage during the match of Competitor A vs competitor B, and only Competitor A vs competitor B, and nobody else. Anyone else use the same strategy developed by Competitor A to play vs anyone other than Competitor B is not meta gaming. They are merely copying a strategy that only worked because B didn't know A had been observing him. There I tried again, and you are rebutted, this makes me happy, because you just learn what meta game is! | ||
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neoghaleon55
United States7435 Posts
On November 18 2011 12:27 rei wrote: That quote focuses on the observation of competitor B by competitor A, the quote does not say every single competitor other than B will use the strategy being applied by competitor B when A is doing the observation. Competitor A is using Meta Game because of his outside of game observation giving him and advantage during the match of Competitor A vs competitor B, and only Competitor A vs competitor B, and nobody else. Anyone else use the same strategy developed by Competitor A to play vs anyone other than Competitor B is not meta gaming. They are merely copying a strategy that only worked because B didn't know A had been observing him. There I tried again, and you are rebutted, this makes me happy, because you just learn what meta game is! Fair enough, I concede. But go read what I wrote in the metagame topic from chill. I hope you can rebuke that as well. http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?topic_id=130447¤tpage=11#201 | ||
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kevinthemighty
United States134 Posts
On November 18 2011 01:01 ShatterZer0 wrote: Hmm... if Mutas discourage robo tech and Ultralisk's main counter is the Immortal, a robo unit, then why wouldn't Muta/ling -> Muta/Ultra/ling work wonders? This is, of course, assuming your ground carapace is already even with the Protoss's ground attack and that you're on hive tech with Adrenal glands. (Muta/ling attempts to get high speed melee and carapace upgrades, right?) Zerglings with Adrenal fight evenly or better than zealots in nearly every situation, no? In my opinion, getting more than 30 or so mutalisks is an undue risk, why not protect your murder of mutas and am up your ability to be aggressive on the ground or even in straight up fights? As a crappy Protoss player I can't help but wonder at why Muta -> Broodlord is preferred over Muta -> Ultra. I think the theoretical benefit of Broodlords over Ultras is the sieging aspect. When you go ling/bling/Muta, you basically make the Protoss turtle inside his base until he has a big enough army to move out. If you go Broodlord correctly, you can siege the Protoss into coming out prematurely, or in a disadvantageous position. You can force them to blink their stalkers away from the protection of their sentries and zealots, and into your numerous lings. However, if you go Ultralisk, it is impossible to do so. Because they can't do damage at a distance, that sieging advantage is lost. And while sitting back, massing ultralisks and creating that 300 food army can also help you win, if the Protoss pulls something out of the bag, you're now contending with an army that's pushing at your front and slowly gaining momentum. This is just general theory though, of course. | ||
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Warrior Madness
Canada3791 Posts
I'd really like to hear more input on this topic. What do you do versus an early colossus push? When exactly should you switch to BLs? How do you deal with other timing pushes (Say a later 3-3 colossus push with a good amount of sentries)? What's the best way to pick off sentries? etc... | ||
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