I think it warrants some discussion that two of the best zerg players on the planet showed this build in code S recently. At first, this unit composition might look kind of terrible against protoss, but let's dissect this stuff.
Why Muta?
We know that protoss does have some difficulty defending against muta harassment around the midgame. Muta play also discourages heavy robo, so no collosi, immortals...possibly fewer DT.
So what does this force protoss to make? They can't make phoenixes unless they go really early starport. Besides, phoenixes will get absolutely trashed by a superior group of muta due to glave splash. So the only proper response to muta would be HT and archon mix with blink stalker.
Why banelings
Now here's something interesting... Heavy HT play means little gas for sentries. This is why banelings are now effective as there are little forcefields to stop them from just killing everything. Since all the gas is spent on HT and stalkers, the only mineral dump left would be prism and zealots, again...owned by banelings. One interesting thing we've seen in code S, was that if the zerg forces the protoss to respond or maneuver out of position, the much slower HT can also be picked off by muta or banelings. Banelings are, of course, weak to psi-storm, so the zerg player has to be careful not to lose half his army to one or two storms.
Now what I still dont understand is the broodlord transition. The zerg has been relying completely on mobility the entire time with muta/bling/lings....why throw it away with broodlords when BL are very slow. Using broodlords will match the army speed to that of the templar army, you completely lose the ability to force the engagement where the zerg army has an advantage. What would be more optimal with a muta/bling composition would be ultralisks. Ultra/banes will crush any non-robo, non-stargate play. Coupled this with infestors, you would have a very dominate army over HT/archon/stalkers.
Let's get some high level players to comment on this issue.
Do you think Muta/bling is the new meta-game composition in ZvP in future games? Do you agree with the broodlord transition?
Who are you talking about? Leenock and Nestea? Shouldn't those games convinced you that banelings is stupid and broodlords is stupid?
You don't ever get speedbanes if protoss has HT. Ever. There's a reason you must always use baneling rain, either because of sentries, or HT. Nestea got incredibly lazy, and that he didnt load up his banes into overlords was extremely depressing. That's like a Zerg who forget zergling speed just saying 'fuck it, im way ahead anyways, ill make more slowlings and overwhelm his blue flame hellions with them!'.
It's also recommended you don't go hive/broodlords, or banelings, when go mutas in ZvP, because the gas is better spent on upgrades and more mutas. You just want to constantly increase the muta count, and maybe the upgrades too. 4 banelings is simply not worth the gas cost. You want to max out on mutas, if possible.
Nestea could have just won the game if he made more muta. His decision to do sillly stuff, was silly. He didn't have enough mutas. He should have also just basetraded with ling/muta, but huk never moved out. Which is okay, you just get more mutas. He didn't replace the mutas he had, he never expanded after 4 bases... he played like a diamond level after a certain point of the game.
Which is the 'thing' about zerg. You can't ever play like a diamond, no matter how ahead you are. Particularly with ling/muta style, a style which is paperthin. Even a masters vs a bronze protoss, when going ling/muta your army will always lose, and the game should almost always go to a basetrade where even as ahead as you are, you should be losing your main anyways in the base trade. You win because you put geysers everywhere and are super mobile with a high dps army.
Baneling rain is incredibly potent as an army. Imo, if the game is 2 base vs 2 base (i cant take a fast third, he went 3 gate expand, whatever) or if he does an opening that denies mutas (he opens stargate and makes a million fucking phoenix), baneling rain is the way to go (roach/banelingrain/infestor) in the midgame.
Right now, the metagame is that protoss likes to FFE. Zerg's popular metagame response, is fast third. 2 base muta vs 2 base protoss is total shit, and people stopped doing it about a year ago. But 3 base muta vs 2 base protoss, is fucking beast. You just make more, and more, and more mutas, and just win in a base trade.
The roach/ling is used for early game defense becuase you are on 3 bases. Zerg has to choose, either fast third or lair. If you go lair before 80 supply, you will 'cut' yourself by about 20 supply (going lair at ~7:00 when on 3 base, for example, will put you at ~55 supply at 8:00 versus 80 supply if you didn't make that lair). So, in order to defend, you use roaches and lings and spines, t1 stuff. Once you get lair, you simply get roach speed because you made so many roaches, and to deny the protoss' third. You really shouldn't be making a single roach afterwards though, it should all be mutas, maybe upgrades.
More mutas > anything else. Check out decaf's ZvP roach/ling/muta guide.
I am not the highest lvl player out there, but i may as well put in my 2 cents:
I doubt that muta/bling will become standard ZvP. It has its impressive uses, and situations definitely call for it, but with the simple volatility of getting destroyed by 1 storm, i doubt many players would be willing to take that risk. Plus, the banelings cost a lot of gas, which could also be spent on roaches/more mutas/upgrades/tech. Personally i prefer to choose between more mutas or roaches into brood lords, depending on the situation.
The broodlord transition really does make a lot of sense here. with the use of both mutas and banes, we're encouraging really heavy HT-Archon play. the banes make the stalker play harder to pull off, and the mutas kind of prevent stargate play for a while. By mostly pacifying stargate units and blink stalkers, your brood lords will have complete dominance over the protoss
On November 16 2011 14:04 Belial88 wrote: Who are you talking about? Leenock and Nestea? Shouldn't those games convinced you that banelings is stupid and broodlords is stupid?
You don't ever get speedbanes if protoss has HT. Ever. There's a reason you must always use baneling rain, either because of sentries, or HT. Nestea got incredibly lazy, and that he didnt load up his banes into overlords was extremely depressing. That's like a Zerg who forget zergling speed just saying 'fuck it, im way ahead anyways, ill make more slowlings and overwhelm his blue flame hellions with them!'.
From all your posts, you seem really narrow minded about what can work in ZvP. The strategy that the OP talks about is really viable, requires a lot of skill, and is a lot of fun. You rely on the fact that you can surround with banes and there's no way toss can storm every angle at the same time. In addition, you pick off sentries before the actual baneling engagement. Baneling drop would have been an incredibly poor choice in Nestea's situation as Huks' army was almost pure blink stalker with 1 or 2 archons and 3 or 4 templar.
It's also recommended you don't go hive/broodlords, or banelings, when go mutas in ZvP, because the gas is better spent on upgrades and more mutas. You just want to constantly increase the muta count, and maybe the upgrades too. 4 banelings is simply not worth the gas cost. You want to max out on mutas, if possible.
Who recommends this? Just you.
Nestea could have just won the game if he made more muta. His decision to do sillly stuff, was silly. He didn't have enough mutas. He should have also just basetraded with ling/muta, but huk never moved out. Which is okay, you just get more mutas. He didn't replace the mutas he had, he never expanded after 4 bases... he played like a diamond level after a certain point of the game.
Which is the 'thing' about zerg. You can't ever play like a diamond, no matter how ahead you are. Particularly with ling/muta style, a style which is paperthin. Even a masters vs a bronze protoss, when going ling/muta your army will always lose, and the game should almost always go to a basetrade where even as ahead as you are, you should be losing your main anyways in the base trade. You win because you put geysers everywhere and are super mobile with a high dps army.
This just seems like a rant.
Baneling rain is incredibly potent as an army. Imo, if the game is 2 base vs 2 base (i cant take a fast third, he went 3 gate expand, whatever) or if he does an opening that denies mutas (he opens stargate and makes a million fucking phoenix), baneling rain is the way to go (roach/banelingrain/infestor) in the midgame.
Imo there's a lot better routes to go than roach infestor baneling drop vs mass phoenix opening.
Right now, the metagame is that protoss likes to FFE. Zerg's popular metagame response, is fast third. 2 base muta vs 2 base protoss is total shit, and people stopped doing it about a year ago. But 3 base muta vs 2 base protoss, is fucking beast. You just make more, and more, and more mutas, and just win in a base trade.
From all your posts, you seem really narrow minded about what can work in ZvP. The strategy that the OP talks about is really viable, requires a lot of skill, and is a lot of fun. You rely on the fact that you can surround with banes and there's no way toss can storm every angle at the same time. In addition, you pick off sentries before the actual baneling engagement. Baneling drop would have been an incredibly poor choice in Nestea's situation as Huks' army was almost pure blink stalker with 1 or 2 archons and 3 or 4 templar.
Baneling rain would have worked much better than speedbanes in his engagements, but banelings at all was a poor choice in the first place in that game.
There isn't really many situations speedbanes are good against protoss. The 2 times are against double stargate, to which you mass corruptor, then speedbanes because he has no sentries due to his all-in gas intensive opening, and after your baneling rain army just crushed the opponent and all his sentries died and you follow up with speedbanes to end the game instead of taking all the time to load up again (in such a situation, keeping to banelingrain would still be fine though, or just go to hive tech or mass roach).
Who recommends this? Just you.
Decaf, actually. When going mass muta, you make more mutas. Not spend the gas in other things. You win with mutas, or at least go to infestor/hive.
This just seems like a rant.
Cool. I commented about the games he seemed to be talking about.
Imo there's a lot better routes to go than roach infestor baneling drop vs mass phoenix opening.
Mass phoenix off of a 1 base opening? Roach/banelingrain/infestor, with more infestors to handle the air, or you can go with corruptors.
He never said anything about 2 base muta.
He did talk about the metagame. You don't really see mass muta when it's 2 base vs 2 base, like if protoss did a 1 base opening. You see mutas when going fast third vs FFE, but you don't see mass mutas when playing against 3 gate sentry expands because you aren't taking a 30 supply third.
But 3 base muta vs 2 base protoss, is fucking beast.
Quoted for truth. The reason for all the 2 base all-inning shit you see these days. Nothing wrong getting 3 bases and defending with HT/Archons/Blink stalkers, but you will have to work your ass off, no matter how good you are (if you saw Hero and HuK's games at the GSL lately, a little unfortunate though).
The reason they are going broodlords is because ultra's are bad vs protoss. They just are, players who have gone ultra's vs protoss even when ahead seem to lose (at least from me watching them anyway). Broodlords are just a lot better, and you already have air superiority so void rays aren't a worry against broodlords.
Personally its a style I have been trying to get down better muta/ling (going to start trying muta/ling/bane) into muta/ling/bane/broodlord/infestor.
I still don't know if it will be a "standard" but we shall see there just isn't enough zvp in gsl to ever see T_T.
Belial, there's no rules (as in, anyone is allowed to comment). But you should really stop acting like you know everything (eg. "roaches are bad in ZvZ", even when arguably the best foreign ZvZ'er, Sen, uses them so much) when you are a diamond/low-master player. It's extremely annoying for those who are actually trying to help, and extremely misleading for those who are seeking it.
I had a game today ZvP on Metal, used the ling/bling/muta to contain onto small numbers of bases. Eventually he just got frustrated and was building up 200 army of blink stalker/archon though, which would've torn me apart (with HT for Storm at home). The Broodlord transition is nice because it syncs really well with your standard spine defense, and also do nicely vs both HTs and Archons, two of the strongest units vs MutaLing.
I've also been experimenting with Ultras, but I dont like them as much as Broodlords.
On November 16 2011 15:22 FairForever wrote: Belial, there's no rules (as in, anyone is allowed to comment). But you should really stop acting like you know everything (eg. "roaches are bad in ZvZ", even when arguably the best foreign ZvZ'er, Sen, uses them so much) when you are a diamond/low-master player. It's extremely annoying for those who are actually trying to help, and extremely misleading for those who are seeking it.
I had a game today ZvP on Metal, used the ling/bling/muta to contain onto small numbers of bases. Eventually he just got frustrated and was building up 200 army of blink stalker/archon though, which would've torn me apart (with HT for Storm at home). The Broodlord transition is nice because it syncs really well with your standard spine defense, and also do nicely vs both HTs and Archons, two of the strongest units vs MutaLing.
I've also been experimenting with Ultras, but I dont like them as much as Broodlords.
I agree, keep it as a discussion and not a lecture. Use "I think" or "in my opinion" or "in this pro's opinion" or else your post seems rather arrogant and annoying, not to mention you're not a pro-player, so you don't get to sound condescending and get away with it.
Its not only korean metagame. On europe at least half of the zergs go for mutas (tough rarely with banelings). They take a lot of bases and spinecrawler it up. This transitions very nicely into broodlord infestor because: the zerg has a lot of ags income, the zerg has a lot of spines.
Muta is extremely difficult to deal with. If I go phoenix, they go more muta. If I try to defend, they go hive tech and get broodlords. Not sure why belai thinks muta -> bl's are bad, but it's really good. I saw Leenock do it on a stream before. He contains toss than gets broodlords and steam rolls, I think it's a viable and fun strat.
it definitely does work. even though phoenix do bonus damage vs them they really have to open with phoenix to get anywhere near a good enough amount me them to be effective against the amount they need to deal with them. and i honestly dont think they can handle them in large numbers. unless you have insane micro.
From all your posts, you seem really narrow minded
This is all you really needed to say, Just like I'll read your post cause its blue I always avoid his post cause its Belial88 lol.
Mutas can wreck protoss, but 2base mutas dont. But if you do whatever build gets you into the midgame then hard switch into mutas, you'll be in a good place. I think this is common knowledge, no?
From all your posts, you seem really narrow minded
This is all you really needed to say, Just like I'll read your post cause its blue I always avoid his post cause its Belial88 lol.
Mutas can wreck protoss, but 2base mutas dont. But if you do whatever build gets you into the midgame then hard switch into mutas, you'll be in a good place. I think this is common knowledge, no?
its not only in the strategy forum either. he likes to disagree. he argues with you about things even when the point he is trying make is exactly what you were saying in the first place
From all your posts, you seem really narrow minded
This is all you really needed to say, Just like I'll read your post cause its blue I always avoid his post cause its Belial88 lol.
Mutas can wreck protoss, but 2base mutas dont. But if you do whatever build gets you into the midgame then hard switch into mutas, you'll be in a good place. I think this is common knowledge, no?
its not only in the strategy forum either. he likes to disagree. he argues with you about things even when the point he is trying make is exactly what you were saying in the first place
o.o I'm confused as to why he got banned, I don't really see the misbehavior like what you are describing? Other than he states his opinion(s) frankly. I wouldn't say that's narrow minded. If you're arguing something, you can be as aggressive about your opinion as you want as long as you're not disrespecting others (since there's no flame/BM on TL etc.)
I think this is a very good strategy. Banelings are just awesome overall and perfect counter to HTs. Nestea just made too muny banelings and wasted all of them on stalkers when he could made just mass lings in that situation and gas spend on more broodlords. I am just wondering about muta timing, because if you go straight into mutas from lair then you may be hardcountered with mass phoenix which is quite often nowadays from protoss. What I am doing is just massing ling/bling, expanding and producing like 20+ mutas at once at ~15min to surprise him. But maybe that's too late dunno..
From all your posts, you seem really narrow minded
This is all you really needed to say, Just like I'll read your post cause its blue I always avoid his post cause its Belial88 lol.
Mutas can wreck protoss, but 2base mutas dont. But if you do whatever build gets you into the midgame then hard switch into mutas, you'll be in a good place. I think this is common knowledge, no?
its not only in the strategy forum either. he likes to disagree. he argues with you about things even when the point he is trying make is exactly what you were saying in the first place
o.o I'm confused as to why he got banned, I don't really see the misbehavior like what you are describing? Other than he states his opinion(s) frankly. I wouldn't say that's narrow minded. If you're arguing something, you can be as aggressive about your opinion as you want as long as you're not disrespecting others (since there's no flame/BM on TL etc.)
From all your posts, you seem really narrow minded
This is all you really needed to say, Just like I'll read your post cause its blue I always avoid his post cause its Belial88 lol.
Mutas can wreck protoss, but 2base mutas dont. But if you do whatever build gets you into the midgame then hard switch into mutas, you'll be in a good place. I think this is common knowledge, no?
its not only in the strategy forum either. he likes to disagree. he argues with you about things even when the point he is trying make is exactly what you were saying in the first place
o.o I'm confused as to why he got banned, I don't really see the misbehavior like what you are describing? Other than he states his opinion(s) frankly. I wouldn't say that's narrow minded. If you're arguing something, you can be as aggressive about your opinion as you want as long as you're not disrespecting others (since there's no flame/BM on TL etc.)
From all your posts, you seem really narrow minded
This is all you really needed to say, Just like I'll read your post cause its blue I always avoid his post cause its Belial88 lol.
Mutas can wreck protoss, but 2base mutas dont. But if you do whatever build gets you into the midgame then hard switch into mutas, you'll be in a good place. I think this is common knowledge, no?
its not only in the strategy forum either. he likes to disagree. he argues with you about things even when the point he is trying make is exactly what you were saying in the first place
o.o I'm confused as to why he got banned, I don't really see the misbehavior like what you are describing? Other than he states his opinion(s) frankly. I wouldn't say that's narrow minded. If you're arguing something, you can be as aggressive about your opinion as you want as long as you're not disrespecting others (since there's no flame/BM on TL etc.)
if someone can clear it up for me then thanks
not so sure about that post but :
Belial88 was just temp banned for 30 days by Plexa. That account was created on 2010-11-07 17:13:15 and had 1852 posts. Reason: We're getting pretty annoyed with how you post on these forums. If there isn't any improvement next ban is a perm.
he really just gets on everyone's nerves. a lot of me the he just posts for the sake of posting and arguing.
From all your posts, you seem really narrow minded
This is all you really needed to say, Just like I'll read your post cause its blue I always avoid his post cause its Belial88 lol.
Mutas can wreck protoss, but 2base mutas dont. But if you do whatever build gets you into the midgame then hard switch into mutas, you'll be in a good place. I think this is common knowledge, no?
its not only in the strategy forum either. he likes to disagree. he argues with you about things even when the point he is trying make is exactly what you were saying in the first place
o.o I'm confused as to why he got banned, I don't really see the misbehavior like what you are describing? Other than he states his opinion(s) frankly. I wouldn't say that's narrow minded. If you're arguing something, you can be as aggressive about your opinion as you want as long as you're not disrespecting others (since there's no flame/BM on TL etc.)
I forgot such a thread existed -.-; but I got a couple PMs as well. Thanks It makes sense if he's been warned about it before. I was confused, thinking it was like a first time thing.
On November 16 2011 15:19 blade55555 wrote: The reason they are going broodlords is because ultra's are bad vs protoss. They just are, players who have gone ultra's vs protoss even when ahead seem to lose (at least from me watching them anyway). Broodlords are just a lot better, and you already have air superiority so void rays aren't a worry against broodlords.
Personally its a style I have been trying to get down better muta/ling (going to start trying muta/ling/bane) into muta/ling/bane/broodlord/infestor.
I still don't know if it will be a "standard" but we shall see there just isn't enough zvp in gsl to ever see T_T.
Could you please elaborate why ultralisks are bad versus protoss? Are not ultralisks faster, more durable, anti-armor damage against stalkers, psy-storm resistant and splash damage? I understand that you shouldn't max out on ultralisks, but perhaps 4 or 5 ultras with banelings seem pretty dangerous.
On November 16 2011 15:19 blade55555 wrote: The reason they are going broodlords is because ultra's are bad vs protoss. They just are, players who have gone ultra's vs protoss even when ahead seem to lose (at least from me watching them anyway). Broodlords are just a lot better, and you already have air superiority so void rays aren't a worry against broodlords.
Personally its a style I have been trying to get down better muta/ling (going to start trying muta/ling/bane) into muta/ling/bane/broodlord/infestor.
I still don't know if it will be a "standard" but we shall see there just isn't enough zvp in gsl to ever see T_T.
Could you please elaborate why ultralisks are bad versus protoss? Are not ultralisks faster, more durable, anti-armor damage against stalkers, psy-storm resistant and splash damage? I understand that you shouldn't max out on ultralisks, but perhaps 4 or 5 ultras with banelings seem pretty dangerous.
Ultralisks are not really bad vs. protoss, they just can be countered too easily, while it's much harder to counter broodlords if you have ground support for them. Nowadays protosses often goes into a lot of archons and ultras are really bad against them, i can say everything is bad against them except broodlords.
Edit: yes ultra/baneling is very strong, but when toss goes mass archons it's does not work.
How many Mutas do you generally build before you go into Broodlords. I find the difficult part is that at a certain point the Mutas make up the majority of my army and I have little supply left for Broodlords let alone lings.
On November 16 2011 17:41 sagefreke wrote: How many Mutas do you generally build before you go into Broodlords. I find the difficult part is that at a certain point the Mutas make up the majority of my army and I have little supply left for Broodlords let alone lings.
i have the same problem. its either that i dont have enough gas to make any decent amount of broods or when i have the gas i dont have the supply.
On November 16 2011 15:19 blade55555 wrote: The reason they are going broodlords is because ultra's are bad vs protoss. They just are, players who have gone ultra's vs protoss even when ahead seem to lose (at least from me watching them anyway). Broodlords are just a lot better, and you already have air superiority so void rays aren't a worry against broodlords.
Personally its a style I have been trying to get down better muta/ling (going to start trying muta/ling/bane) into muta/ling/bane/broodlord/infestor.
I still don't know if it will be a "standard" but we shall see there just isn't enough zvp in gsl to ever see T_T.
Could you please elaborate why ultralisks are bad versus protoss? Are not ultralisks faster, more durable, anti-armor damage against stalkers, psy-storm resistant and splash damage? I understand that you shouldn't max out on ultralisks, but perhaps 4 or 5 ultras with banelings seem pretty dangerous.
Its just really easy for a toss to start countering them. Zealot/archon/immortals/void rays (not just zealots by themselves of course )
On November 16 2011 15:19 blade55555 wrote: The reason they are going broodlords is because ultra's are bad vs protoss. They just are, players who have gone ultra's vs protoss even when ahead seem to lose (at least from me watching them anyway). Broodlords are just a lot better, and you already have air superiority so void rays aren't a worry against broodlords.
Personally its a style I have been trying to get down better muta/ling (going to start trying muta/ling/bane) into muta/ling/bane/broodlord/infestor.
I still don't know if it will be a "standard" but we shall see there just isn't enough zvp in gsl to ever see T_T.
Could you please elaborate why ultralisks are bad versus protoss? Are not ultralisks faster, more durable, anti-armor damage against stalkers, psy-storm resistant and splash damage? I understand that you shouldn't max out on ultralisks, but perhaps 4 or 5 ultras with banelings seem pretty dangerous.
Protoss can instantly warp in 15 zealots the second they see ultralisks, which do an excellent job of tanking for the rest of their stuff so the anti-armor abilities of the ultralisk are greatly reduced.
From judging Leenock and Nestea's play, I don't think it is their unit-comp that won them the game. It was their opening build that got them the advantage (the fast third) and the final test was their execution of t1 roach-ling defense.
I would even go out on a limb and say ANY comp works after this point, as long as you have a good "meat" to your army (roaches most of the time). Be it mutas, mass banelings/bombing, just pure roach tunneling claws, infestor, upgraded ling/roach, roach/hydra.
TLDR: zerg just has to worry about setting up that 3rd and the initial defense. After that, just worry about having enough "stuff".
On November 16 2011 15:19 blade55555 wrote: The reason they are going broodlords is because ultra's are bad vs protoss. They just are, players who have gone ultra's vs protoss even when ahead seem to lose (at least from me watching them anyway). Broodlords are just a lot better, and you already have air superiority so void rays aren't a worry against broodlords.
Personally its a style I have been trying to get down better muta/ling (going to start trying muta/ling/bane) into muta/ling/bane/broodlord/infestor.
I still don't know if it will be a "standard" but we shall see there just isn't enough zvp in gsl to ever see T_T.
Could you please elaborate why ultralisks are bad versus protoss? Are not ultralisks faster, more durable, anti-armor damage against stalkers, psy-storm resistant and splash damage? I understand that you shouldn't max out on ultralisks, but perhaps 4 or 5 ultras with banelings seem pretty dangerous.
Its just really easy for a toss to start countering them. Zealot/archon/immortals/void rays (not just zealots by themselves of course )
Well, I wouldn't say it is "they are just bad, because Protoss units are so good vs them". I don't know exactly, but from my overall experiences, ultralisks usually work well against lower supply counts, because lower supply counts mean lower dps which gives them more time to do damage. (pretty important for a melee unit) But once the supply counts are similar (and rather high), they just die too fast, surround to slow and just eat too much of ones supply count. I would describe them as an "advantage" unit, something you want to crush the opponent with when you're ahead, but not as stable composition unit. f.e. all the TvZ styles that use ultralisks try to hit an opponent with a huge supply lead --> fast (upgraded) ultralisks in ling/infestor/ultra builds, or remaxed ultralisks, when you can just outproduce your opponent. So in conclusion I would say, with Protoss usually trying to stay around max in the lategame, there is just no way to really focus on the ultralisks strenghts.
That being said, I think the reason why so many people are going muta/ling/bling these days vs Protoss is simply that mutalisks are a really good unit to preserve advantages (like the eco lead 3base vs 2base openings give a zerg these days). You make the protoss react to your composition, have constant scouting and prevent cornercutting (too fast teching/expanding). Furthermore Protoss style before mutalisks was mostly evolved around the Colossus (like FFE-->aggression-->Colossus), who is able to even out huge eco leads with ground superiority in the (late) midgame. With mutalisks you can force noncolossus play, which makes it way tougher to gain a solid vs ground force for protoss and therefore harder to pressure you. The zergling part in the play is mostly the result of lacking gas early (you need everything for mutalisks), but also because they do very well against stalkers, which Protoss most likely will go for as mutadefense. The banelings... I'm not sure, but I guess it comes mostly down to: when you already have zerglings and an income advantage and start to max out, you can't produce anything anymore so you just turn your zerglings into banelings due to all the money you have. I think a more focused techplay to broodlords might be better, yet the difficulties with that usually are that your spire is upgrading and your mutanumbers need to hit ~30 to be a strong force (so no gas until then for tech) while you still need a lot of units, because mutalisks on their own are bad combatants. So you naturally hit high supply with high income (expansion and drones only cost minerals) before you have high tech and in the "in between" phase you go for banelings.
On November 16 2011 15:19 blade55555 wrote: The reason they are going broodlords is because ultra's are bad vs protoss. They just are, players who have gone ultra's vs protoss even when ahead seem to lose (at least from me watching them anyway). Broodlords are just a lot better, and you already have air superiority so void rays aren't a worry against broodlords.
Personally its a style I have been trying to get down better muta/ling (going to start trying muta/ling/bane) into muta/ling/bane/broodlord/infestor.
I still don't know if it will be a "standard" but we shall see there just isn't enough zvp in gsl to ever see T_T.
Could you please elaborate why ultralisks are bad versus protoss? Are not ultralisks faster, more durable, anti-armor damage against stalkers, psy-storm resistant and splash damage? I understand that you shouldn't max out on ultralisks, but perhaps 4 or 5 ultras with banelings seem pretty dangerous.
Protoss can instantly warp in 15 zealots the second they see ultralisks, which do an excellent job of tanking for the rest of their stuff so the anti-armor abilities of the ultralisk are greatly reduced.
Did you forget about the 30 banelings that accompanies the ultralisks? In regards to protoss tech switching to immortal/voidrays....well, zergs should be able to transition into air/infestor as well.
I actually agree with Belial88's concept of how to play 3base muta vs 2base.
Mass muta => Contain protoss => take literally every base => make mass baneling.
Baneling's in overlords are superior in almost every way to speed banelings on the ground... Almost the same speed, more or less immune to storm, and better splash is achieved. it's true that they can blink back with stalkers, but it's very easy to chase down stalkers with banelings in overlords, especially if you have some covering overlords. Also it means the stalkers are not hitting your mutas as they run (ideal) and if they blink, they are exposing the templars/archon which WILL die immediately to magic boxed muta + speedling/baneling (no archons yay!)
It's not a problem to lose the overlords because in baneling muta you have a lot of excess minerals. I always overmake overlords and put them literally everywhere.
The only advantage to speed banelings is that they cost a little less upgrade wise and they are easier to control.
Broodlords are only necessary if you really want to fight their army head on.. which is really unnecessary. If you take every base (which you should be able to do) you can just win the war of attrition. Destroy their base so they cannot reinforce, mass muta, then when they engage at spines at one of your bases, just crush the army with 3/3 banelings and 3/3 muta.
Decaf, actually. When going mass muta, you make more mutas. Not spend the gas in other things. You win with mutas, or at least go to infestor/hive.
Please, the guide I posted ( http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=277693 ) is displaying the way I play this matchup. If nestea comes up with a strategy you can be sure that it's a solid style, because he's nestea and his credibility is infinitely higher than mine (despite the fact that he and julyzerg inspired me to play like this). Not transitioning out of mutas is what I do and what works best in my opinion so don't quote me on it when discussing other styles.
I haven't seen these games so I cannot comment on them. There's not only one way to play a matchup. Just for clarification.
You can't win a game with mutas. You can control the game, you use the mutas to keep the toss in their base and not to attack you while you expand/tech up...
To answer OP's question, ultras are a good idea, but I feel they are still too clunky to be too viable. Mixing a few ultras in your army works well (which is why people have both greater spire + ultra tech at the same time), especially tech switching from bl to ultra. But I feel BL just works out better, at least for me.
On November 16 2011 17:41 sagefreke wrote: How many Mutas do you generally build before you go into Broodlords. I find the difficult part is that at a certain point the Mutas make up the majority of my army and I have little supply left for Broodlords let alone lings.
Depends. Plus, I don't mind trading mutas for stalkers as long as I'm trading efficiently, especially since I should have a huge economical lead.
I'll be honest, I think that this is really the future of ZvP. Mutas are just so strong, even if you don't get into that huge Muta death ball that a lot of people like to use. 15 or so Mutas are enough to really fucking with the Toss player's economy and building placement, etc.
Here are some of my reasons that haven't been mentioned in this thread as to why I think this style is so strong:
-Really strong basetrade style. After your third, if you suspect he is going to try and move out on two bases or even go into 3 bases and crush you, expanding around the map and getting a lot of spines at isolated bases can slow him down to the point where you can rape his bases as he moves away from his base and on to your creep.
-If his unit comp gets too focused on fighting mutas (pure stalker, archon), you can tech switched the shit out of him. Getting two evos anyways for ling upgrades, you can get 1/1 for your roaches and hydras because he doesn't know how many mutas you'll commit too.
-Mutas make it really hard to reinforce your push. Sniping pylons, probes trying to build more pylons, etc.
Downsides?
-Dies to the 2 base super fast +2 7 gate charge archon. Doesn't matter if you kill off all the archons with your mutas and he can't shoot up with the rest of the zealots. He will kill all your drones and queens faster than you can kill all of his zealots (while he turtles and gets blink and stalkers).
-Really battle specific army comp. You fight into a choke equals you lose. There is no real way around this point, you need to split up your lings/blings to get an good surround.
Muta ZvP is really good right now against FFE, it allows you to get an absurd econ advantage, with constant scouting and the threat of a base trade. Toss players are SLOWLY figuring out little harassments out of FFE (usually involving WPs) to delay the sudden tech switch and huge econ, but I still think the problem lies with FFE itself. The top Z's in the world have just totally figured out how to stop mostly every harassment out of FFE, and going for gateway timing attacks against 3 base roach/spine/ling is nearly futile these days.
I think it's a good style, but is made even stronger by the weaknesses of FFE. I do hope we see more 1 gate expands in the future, or some sort of Gateway expand variant.
On November 17 2011 04:53 GlocKomA wrote: Downsides?
-Dies to the 2 base super fast +2 7 gate charge archon. Doesn't matter if you kill off all the archons with your mutas and he can't shoot up with the rest of the zealots. He will kill all your drones and queens faster than you can kill all of his zealots (while he turtles and gets blink and stalkers).
You don't go really go muta on 3 base unless you know it's safe.
Muta play has been fairly common against protoss since the release. What is intriguing is the meta game in which zerg masses banelings to accompany the muta. Honestly, I still don't understand this new style very much. It's such a gas dump, there isn't much left for tier 3. But then again, the muta gains map control, so you can expand like a mad-person.
so, i have a question. vs toss ffe if you go quick third into mutas, how the hell do you not die to 5/6gate pushes? i find it quite hard to scout if hes 6gating me before lair or is lair timing quicker? does anyone have timings/build for ZvP mutas vs ffe?
On November 17 2011 16:32 apalemorning wrote: so, i have a question. vs toss ffe if you go quick third into mutas, how the hell do you not die to 5/6gate pushes? i find it quite hard to scout if hes 6gating me before lair or is lair timing quicker? does anyone have timings/build for ZvP mutas vs ffe?
No, you stay on 2 bases until you get your mutas out. Otherwise get roaches first to defend and mutas in mid game. You don't have to rush to it.
On November 17 2011 16:32 apalemorning wrote: so, i have a question. vs toss ffe if you go quick third into mutas, how the hell do you not die to 5/6gate pushes? i find it quite hard to scout if hes 6gating me before lair or is lair timing quicker? does anyone have timings/build for ZvP mutas vs ffe?
No, you stay on 2 bases until you get your mutas out. Otherwise get roaches first to defend and mutas in mid game. You don't have to rush to it.
if you go 2base mutalisks, you need a ton of spines and therefore you are economically behind and if the mutalisks don't do a ton of damage initially in a 2base vs 2base situation you lose. The trick is to go 3base mutalisks, defend whatever Protoss throws at you and then proceed from the huge advantage you now have into mutalisk containing him.
Basically you do something like: -) pool first opening (14/14 speedling expand, 14pool/15-16hatch, 11p/18h... whatever you think is appropriate) -) take mapcontrol and try to deny scouting (zergling in front of his base, scout/patrol locations where he is likely to hide a probe, make your desired 3rd base spot scoutfree) -) take a third ~4:30 - 5:00 (~26supply) (watch his front and gases... If he doesn't have some sentries and doesn't research anything from the forge, stargate or dts are extremly likely, especially if he had 2-3 early gases) -) evolution chamber between 6:00-7:00, one spore per base, 3-4queens, connect bases asap! (initial creep tumor instead of initial inject at bases 2 & 3) -) retake gas and start a lair and a roach warren ~8-9mins, +1 on the upgrade of your choice, take 3-4gases -) your composition should be roach/ling now and should be able to deal with any form of ground play he can throw at you from 2base at this time; against air you want hydralisks instead of roaches -) start your spire and your 5th and 6th gas right after you defended his attack and if he didn't go double stargate; double stargate should simply die to a big hydralisk attack (while you research drops and deny a third from him) -) start toying with him (he is so far behind that even if he goes "perfect" antimutalisk composition of 3base, you should simply be able to contain him so hard that he will never be able to catch up to you) -) if he refuses to die or basetrade with you, proceed to broodlord and baneling tech, once you start to get high in supply (~180supply). Those 2 should be able to bust down walls/bases and straight up kill his army, when he doesn't want to come out and play
I know that it is an OK strat, still I don't see your Banelings owning my Archons cost efficient... The purpose of the Banilings IMO is that you keep toss from Archon Toileting those BLords, since all the banes would kill everything. And ArchonToilet is the only way to kill Broodlords without air (Unless you want to blink into those banes) So I guess that those are more defensive Banes.
Just my 2Cents for all you Zergs who happily run alle the Banes into toss only to lose your BRoods right after that.
What do toss players like to do vs BL? Sometimes they will blink under your BL's and snipe one at a time.
What is the answer? Just have your banelings chill and have a picnic under the shade of your BroodLords.
I can't tell you how many times I am setting up my baneling trap and stalkers stupidly blink under my Bl's just to be turned into a sea of green gooyness. :D :D :D
On November 18 2011 00:22 EndOfLine wrote: ^ Banes also serve another purpose.
What do toss players like to do vs BL? Sometimes they will blink under your BL's and snipe one at a time.
What is the answer? Just have your banelings chill and have a picnic under the shade of your BroodLords.
I can't tell you how many times I am setting up my baneling trap and stalkers stupidly blink under my Bl's just to be turned into a sea of green gooyness. :D :D :D
Damn, recently i tried muta play. And its awesome (diamond league though) the hard part though is getting a safe transition into it, but once you got like 8, you can rly dictate the game. And most people havent adapted yet against this play. Also i feel it rly rewards people with good multitasking.
But question, why ling bling with this? Once i got a pretty big flock i mix it up with roaches/ hydra's. Or does this shit don't work at masters?
On November 18 2011 00:22 EndOfLine wrote: ^ Banes also serve another purpose.
What do toss players like to do vs BL? Sometimes they will blink under your BL's and snipe one at a time.
What is the answer? Just have your banelings chill and have a picnic under the shade of your BroodLords.
I can't tell you how many times I am setting up my baneling trap and stalkers stupidly blink under my Bl's just to be turned into a sea of green gooyness. :D :D :D
What do you do if he blinks in 1 at a time?
Well if he does it that slowly, then your BLs have time to kill the stalkers.
On November 18 2011 00:22 EndOfLine wrote: ^ Banes also serve another purpose.
What do toss players like to do vs BL? Sometimes they will blink under your BL's and snipe one at a time.
What is the answer? Just have your banelings chill and have a picnic under the shade of your BroodLords.
I can't tell you how many times I am setting up my baneling trap and stalkers stupidly blink under my Bl's just to be turned into a sea of green gooyness. :D :D :D
What do you do if he blinks in 1 at a time?
1 at a time when broodlords are ever increasing broodlings everywhere star ship troopers style???
I feel like time is against the protoss in this senario. Especially if the zerg has been keeping up on his injects and is rallying more army to the fight.
On November 18 2011 00:43 massivez wrote: Damn, recently i tried muta play. And its awesome (diamond league though) the hard part though is getting a safe transition into it, but once you got like 8, you can rly dictate the game. And most people havent adapted yet against this play. Also i feel it rly rewards people with good multitasking.
But question, why ling bling with this? Once i got a pretty big flock i mix it up with roaches/ hydra's. Or does this shit don't work at masters?
The idea of lings/blings is, Lings are pure min. So more gas for mutas,
But zergs have been using roach/muta too.
Most strats can work if you spend the time refining them for the many different senariors you will find at your lvl and higher lvls.
Hmm... if Mutas discourage robo tech and Ultralisk's main counter is the Immortal, a robo unit, then why wouldn't Muta/ling -> Muta/Ultra/ling work wonders?
This is, of course, assuming your ground carapace is already even with the Protoss's ground attack and that you're on hive tech with Adrenal glands. (Muta/ling attempts to get high speed melee and carapace upgrades, right?)
Zerglings with Adrenal fight evenly or better than zealots in nearly every situation, no? In my opinion, getting more than 30 or so mutalisks is an undue risk, why not protect your murder of mutas and am up your ability to be aggressive on the ground or even in straight up fights?
As a crappy Protoss player I can't help but wonder at why Muta -> Broodlord is preferred over Muta -> Ultra.
On November 18 2011 01:01 ShatterZer0 wrote: Hmm... if Mutas discourage robo tech and Ultralisk's main counter is the Immortal, a robo unit, then why wouldn't Muta/ling -> Muta/Ultra/ling work wonders?
This is, of course, assuming your ground carapace is already even with the Protoss's ground attack and that you're on hive tech with Adrenal glands. (Muta/ling attempts to get high speed melee and carapace upgrades, right?)
Zerglings with Adrenal fight evenly or better than zealots in nearly every situation, no? In my opinion, getting more than 30 or so mutalisks is an undue risk, why not protect your murder of mutas and am up your ability to be aggressive on the ground or even in straight up fights?
As a crappy Protoss player I can't help but wonder at why Muta -> Broodlord is preferred over Muta -> Ultra.
Your theory can work. And I personally love making utras just for that "grrrrrrrrr" noise that they make when they form. So I haved played around with the strat you suggested, and, I can work. (Actually its something I have been seeing in zvz)
However by having so many mutas you can protect your BL's from any Void ray shinanigans, Banes/lings for the stalkers.
From all your posts, you seem really narrow minded
This is all you really needed to say, Just like I'll read your post cause its blue I always avoid his post cause its Belial88 lol.
Mutas can wreck protoss, but 2base mutas dont. But if you do whatever build gets you into the midgame then hard switch into mutas, you'll be in a good place. I think this is common knowledge, no?
its not only in the strategy forum either. he likes to disagree. he argues with you about things even when the point he is trying make is exactly what you were saying in the first place
o.o I'm confused as to why he got banned, I don't really see the misbehavior like what you are describing? Other than he states his opinion(s) frankly. I wouldn't say that's narrow minded. If you're arguing something, you can be as aggressive about your opinion as you want as long as you're not disrespecting others (since there's no flame/BM on TL etc.)
if someone can clear it up for me then thanks
Belial88 was just temp banned for 30 days by Plexa.
That account was created on 2010-11-07 17:13:15 and had 1852 posts.
Reason: We're getting pretty annoyed with how you post on these forums. If there isn't any improvement next ban is a perm.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- A justified ban in my opinion.
To the OP: I think that Muta-ling is much more cost efficient and less risk averse. With Storms / Archons / Blink stalkers, you constantly risk extremely cost-ineffective engagements if the Protoss micros well. Broodlord transitions are not terrible, but I do agree you with that Ultra play would make more sense. The Protoss probably won't be making anything from the Robo except observers while you are on Muta, and he would have to be a genius to somehow predict the Ultra switch you are going to make. Fighting Archons with Ultras is not ideal, but Storms and Blink stalkers are two things that Ultras do very very well against.
Also, consider upgrades. You are getting both flier and ground melee upgrades, both of which help your Broodlords. And 3/3 Broodlords with 3/3 Broodlings are much scarier than 3/5 Ultras.
I think ultras and broodlords both have a place, I think Ultras are better late game vs a toss that went collosus tech with their HT instead of Archons, this mostly happens on 4 base, if they try to invest in both techs on 3 bases you will likely kill them straight up with the muta harass.
But if they manage to take a 4th on a large enough map ultras work very well when there are no immortals or archons around, they also work better as a reinforcing unit to kill the enemy once you have battered down the first wave of units cost effectively with broodlords.
With the muta ling roach strat I often win before hive tech but in situations it does get further its because of really defensive unit placement and large numbers of cannons which broodlords are better at dealing with than ultras. That is probably the most clear reason to use them as your t3 of choice.
I'm still experimenting with ways to get the broodlord transition without making it terribly obvious though, its kind of difficult, right now I like poaching a few spores out in random spots to snipe observers and make a ton of spines while freeing up food by doing ling run bys so my muta harass never has to take a real break while getting enough broods, in the end it ends up being 8-12 broodlords + 5-7 infestors + all the mutas that haven't died and a handful of lings because you are basically supply capped at this point on high tech units. I still have some trouble using this composition vs large numbers of collosus and correctly controlled blink stalkers, they can go for all kinds of counters pulling the broodlords back, especially on maps like shattered temple, because both units go up and down cliffs, in straight engages collosus kill broodlings really fast so stalkers can pick off most of the broodlords without taking too heavy of losses if they managed to get on equal bases, thats why I like the ultra transition vs robo.
Anyways this was a book so anyone who read it should have a good day.
On November 18 2011 01:26 Fishgle wrote: Also, consider upgrades. You are getting both flier and ground melee upgrades, both of which help your Broodlords. And 3/3 Broodlords with 3/3 Broodlings are much scarier than 3/5 Ultras.
This is true. HOWEVER Unless you are getting Mass air upgrades as well, which takes 50% of your entire life to achieve, your BL themselves will have very small amount of upgrades.
So, i've been having a lot of problems with this matchup but I've been paying attention to Destiny's stream and CombatEx(insert lols here or whatever) recommended a sick play style to destiny where you get on 3 base ASAP, use mass spines to defend huge timing pushes, do nothing but drone up to 70 as fast as possible and go massive mutas. Anytime his army moves out, you contain him with mutas as you take the map. With excess mins you keep building hatcheries. When he does move out, you force the base trade situation as you build more and more mutas, and with your superior economy and large number of hats you tech switch after engaging with mutas (usually to roaches, since they are likely good v. his composition of archons+ht).
Oh damn Belial finally got banned about time I say and yeah its really not safe to go fast 3 base into muta right away unless you know its absolutely safe to do so against FFE any 2 base all in can kill/delay you so easily its not really viable which is why a lot of ppl go mass ling 3 base with spines and then into mutas later(very delayed) or 2 base muta which comes out a lot faster and safer and then possibly double expo after
Yeah Ultras are pretty bad, as a Protoss player I cannot recall ever actually having trouble with them. The only time I lost to them was when the game was already over, kinda like a "victory cigar" type of unit.
Broodlords I also understand as for example you have already secured a sizable portion of your side of the map and now need a strong force to push your opponent and due to the sheer amount of bases you can win any ensuing base race.
The Baneling transition however I do not understand. Storm by itself already does fantastic vs Banelings even without FF, and I fail to see what Banelings provide over Roaches, outside of maybe supply efficiency. On second thought, that probably is the exact reason. If the zerg gets to the point of containing the protoss and mass expanding enough so that resources are no longer a limiting factor Banelings do make a lot of sense in that regard. Allowing you to continually sink resources to quickly wipe out your opponents army, which them frees up supply to transition into something else if needed, like Broodlords.
The chinese Gomtv vods are free to watch, you just need to have PPstream and the ability to read Chinese in order navigate the program.
The strength of zerg having a ball of muta is that they can threaten a base trade anytime the protoss move out, and because zerg's production comes from hatcheries, they can have expansion on opposite of the map and when toss base trades with zerg, the zerg player can still product where as the protoss can't after warpgates are gone.
Early on, Zerg can't safely get mutas out facing a 8gate protoss timing attack off fast expo. They would need either spines/lings or a roach/ling in maps that doesn't have small chokes. However, after a while, zergs starting to catch on to this attack timing, and they are able to derive a strategy in which they would have enough to stop the 8gate if it comes. Usually involves a group of lings picking off offensive pylons and delay the toss push while pumping roaches. After many zerg shown the ability to shut down the 8gate timing with ease, the protoss then stop relying on this gimmick and favors stargate/robo/twilight temple tech off few gateways. Which opens up the door for zerg to make the dreaded muta balls. The proper response the protoss should do is to do the 8gate, but never commit into attacking the zerg for real, just hang near a choke outside of zerg's base and keep building that ball of stalker/sentry up and take a 3rd. The pressure alone would force zerg to keep making roach/ling and unable to drone up their 3rd. with this there is no need to worry about mutalisks and bullshit base trade
The truth of the matter is that muta ling is not the future meta game but is the current one on some maps. I think the original poster makes some good points but there are some things missing. First off, you can only do it on maps that the muta's mobility can be fully utilized. Tal'darim is a perfect example. The power of this mobile composition is to be able to pull the protoss army all over the place while you're attacking at multiple fronts. So maps like Antiga would not be good since all 3 bases are very close and you can't get behind the natural or the main.
Also, the OP mentions banes which I think is not a good idea. The main reason it's not good is because it takes gas which would limit your muta production. Also, your opponent will have blink stalkers which are very cost effective against banes off creep. Banes against toss I believe are still only best used in dropping because of the full efficiency of the splash damage. Not to mention the impending HT transition will just nullify banes completely.
The biggest thing to remember about this comp is that zerg typically wants to force a base trade scenario. in this situation. You want the protoss death ball to come into your main while your muta ling wreck their base. At the same time you've built a couple bases at the corners of the map. You'll never fight the army straight up with muta ling but your mobility will allow you a lot of the time to kill all his builds before you kills yours. This is the most common scenario Ive seen with muta ling.
If you don't go base trade, then you have to transition to something else the minute you see HT and archons. Roach BLs and spines are probably the best thing to transition to from there. And the poster that got banned is absolutely right about watching the recent GSL games about how to play it wrong (nestea) and how to play it right (leenock).
On November 18 2011 04:11 rei wrote: Stop misusing the word metagame! Muta/Bling into Broodlord is a strategy, not a bloody metagame. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metagaming
damn it all, change the title Chill!!!!
You want to try this again rei?
There is a special set of moves in chess which allows a player to win in four moves. Competitor A has been watching Competitor B play chess, and the past five games in a row Competitor B has attempted to use this four-move win. When Competitor A sits down to play against Competitor B, Competitor A will be metagaming if he/she plays in a way that will easily thwart the four-move checkmate before Competitor B makes it obvious that this is what he/she is doing.
In the same sense, for a long time, GSL protoss favor sentries, collosi against zerg and can win with four moves. The meta game is using muta to "thwart" the collosi+sentries combination without making it obvious that this is what he/she is doing.
That quote focuses on the observation of competitor B by competitor A, the quote does not say every single competitor other than B will use the strategy being applied by competitor B when A is doing the observation.
Competitor A is using Meta Game because of his outside of game observation giving him and advantage during the match of Competitor A vs competitor B, and only Competitor A vs competitor B, and nobody else.
Anyone else use the same strategy developed by Competitor A to play vs anyone other than Competitor B is not meta gaming. They are merely copying a strategy that only worked because B didn't know A had been observing him.
There I tried again, and you are rebutted, this makes me happy, because you just learn what meta game is!
On November 18 2011 12:27 rei wrote: That quote focuses on the observation of competitor B by competitor A, the quote does not say every single competitor other than B will use the strategy being applied by competitor B when A is doing the observation.
Competitor A is using Meta Game because of his outside of game observation giving him and advantage during the match of Competitor A vs competitor B, and only Competitor A vs competitor B, and nobody else.
Anyone else use the same strategy developed by Competitor A to play vs anyone other than Competitor B is not meta gaming. They are merely copying a strategy that only worked because B didn't know A had been observing him.
There I tried again, and you are rebutted, this makes me happy, because you just learn what meta game is!
Fair enough, I concede. But go read what I wrote in the metagame topic from chill. I hope you can rebuke that as well.
On November 18 2011 01:01 ShatterZer0 wrote: Hmm... if Mutas discourage robo tech and Ultralisk's main counter is the Immortal, a robo unit, then why wouldn't Muta/ling -> Muta/Ultra/ling work wonders?
This is, of course, assuming your ground carapace is already even with the Protoss's ground attack and that you're on hive tech with Adrenal glands. (Muta/ling attempts to get high speed melee and carapace upgrades, right?)
Zerglings with Adrenal fight evenly or better than zealots in nearly every situation, no? In my opinion, getting more than 30 or so mutalisks is an undue risk, why not protect your murder of mutas and am up your ability to be aggressive on the ground or even in straight up fights?
As a crappy Protoss player I can't help but wonder at why Muta -> Broodlord is preferred over Muta -> Ultra.
I think the theoretical benefit of Broodlords over Ultras is the sieging aspect. When you go ling/bling/Muta, you basically make the Protoss turtle inside his base until he has a big enough army to move out. If you go Broodlord correctly, you can siege the Protoss into coming out prematurely, or in a disadvantageous position. You can force them to blink their stalkers away from the protection of their sentries and zealots, and into your numerous lings.
However, if you go Ultralisk, it is impossible to do so. Because they can't do damage at a distance, that sieging advantage is lost. And while sitting back, massing ultralisks and creating that 300 food army can also help you win, if the Protoss pulls something out of the bag, you're now contending with an army that's pushing at your front and slowly gaining momentum.
Have been off SC2 for a few months now but I've settled into this style in zvp. Pretty much do the IM opener and presuming it's safe to go mutas (i.e. no 6-8 gate shenanigans) I start to pump them out. My most favourite thing about mutas is that they don't actually let you win games... But they give you a ton of map control. What I like to do is bring an overseer along with them once they're out and hunt for observers. I mean doing that alone has helped me a ton especially picking off those ones parked at the border of their bases. It means they don't see bling drops in the min until a little later and I can position all my overlords to catch their warp prisms. I only really morph blings though when a big push is imminent. I try to use the mutas to delay as long as possible pick off what I can and position my blings to flank on one side and make the necessary amount of spines.
I'd really like to hear more input on this topic. What do you do versus an early colossus push? When exactly should you switch to BLs? How do you deal with other timing pushes (Say a later 3-3 colossus push with a good amount of sentries)? What's the best way to pick off sentries? etc...
EPT
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