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I think it warrants some discussion that two of the best zerg players on the planet showed this build in code S recently. At first, this unit composition might look kind of terrible against protoss, but let's dissect this stuff.
Why Muta?
We know that protoss does have some difficulty defending against muta harassment around the midgame. Muta play also discourages heavy robo, so no collosi, immortals...possibly fewer DT.
So what does this force protoss to make? They can't make phoenixes unless they go really early starport. Besides, phoenixes will get absolutely trashed by a superior group of muta due to glave splash. So the only proper response to muta would be HT and archon mix with blink stalker.
Why banelings
Now here's something interesting... Heavy HT play means little gas for sentries. This is why banelings are now effective as there are little forcefields to stop them from just killing everything. Since all the gas is spent on HT and stalkers, the only mineral dump left would be prism and zealots, again...owned by banelings. One interesting thing we've seen in code S, was that if the zerg forces the protoss to respond or maneuver out of position, the much slower HT can also be picked off by muta or banelings. Banelings are, of course, weak to psi-storm, so the zerg player has to be careful not to lose half his army to one or two storms.
Now what I still dont understand is the broodlord transition. The zerg has been relying completely on mobility the entire time with muta/bling/lings....why throw it away with broodlords when BL are very slow. Using broodlords will match the army speed to that of the templar army, you completely lose the ability to force the engagement where the zerg army has an advantage.
What would be more optimal with a muta/bling composition would be ultralisks. Ultra/banes will crush any non-robo, non-stargate play. Coupled this with infestors, you would have a very dominate army over HT/archon/stalkers.
Let's get some high level players to comment on this issue.
Do you think Muta/bling is the new meta-game composition in ZvP in future games?
Do you agree with the broodlord transition?
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Who are you talking about? Leenock and Nestea? Shouldn't those games convinced you that banelings is stupid and broodlords is stupid?
You don't ever get speedbanes if protoss has HT. Ever. There's a reason you must always use baneling rain, either because of sentries, or HT. Nestea got incredibly lazy, and that he didnt load up his banes into overlords was extremely depressing. That's like a Zerg who forget zergling speed just saying 'fuck it, im way ahead anyways, ill make more slowlings and overwhelm his blue flame hellions with them!'.
It's also recommended you don't go hive/broodlords, or banelings, when go mutas in ZvP, because the gas is better spent on upgrades and more mutas. You just want to constantly increase the muta count, and maybe the upgrades too. 4 banelings is simply not worth the gas cost. You want to max out on mutas, if possible.
Nestea could have just won the game if he made more muta. His decision to do sillly stuff, was silly. He didn't have enough mutas. He should have also just basetraded with ling/muta, but huk never moved out. Which is okay, you just get more mutas. He didn't replace the mutas he had, he never expanded after 4 bases... he played like a diamond level after a certain point of the game.
Which is the 'thing' about zerg. You can't ever play like a diamond, no matter how ahead you are. Particularly with ling/muta style, a style which is paperthin. Even a masters vs a bronze protoss, when going ling/muta your army will always lose, and the game should almost always go to a basetrade where even as ahead as you are, you should be losing your main anyways in the base trade. You win because you put geysers everywhere and are super mobile with a high dps army.
Baneling rain is incredibly potent as an army. Imo, if the game is 2 base vs 2 base (i cant take a fast third, he went 3 gate expand, whatever) or if he does an opening that denies mutas (he opens stargate and makes a million fucking phoenix), baneling rain is the way to go (roach/banelingrain/infestor) in the midgame.
Right now, the metagame is that protoss likes to FFE. Zerg's popular metagame response, is fast third. 2 base muta vs 2 base protoss is total shit, and people stopped doing it about a year ago. But 3 base muta vs 2 base protoss, is fucking beast. You just make more, and more, and more mutas, and just win in a base trade.
The roach/ling is used for early game defense becuase you are on 3 bases. Zerg has to choose, either fast third or lair. If you go lair before 80 supply, you will 'cut' yourself by about 20 supply (going lair at ~7:00 when on 3 base, for example, will put you at ~55 supply at 8:00 versus 80 supply if you didn't make that lair). So, in order to defend, you use roaches and lings and spines, t1 stuff. Once you get lair, you simply get roach speed because you made so many roaches, and to deny the protoss' third. You really shouldn't be making a single roach afterwards though, it should all be mutas, maybe upgrades.
More mutas > anything else. Check out decaf's ZvP roach/ling/muta guide.
User was temp banned for this post.
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I am not the highest lvl player out there, but i may as well put in my 2 cents:
I doubt that muta/bling will become standard ZvP. It has its impressive uses, and situations definitely call for it, but with the simple volatility of getting destroyed by 1 storm, i doubt many players would be willing to take that risk. Plus, the banelings cost a lot of gas, which could also be spent on roaches/more mutas/upgrades/tech. Personally i prefer to choose between more mutas or roaches into brood lords, depending on the situation.
The broodlord transition really does make a lot of sense here. with the use of both mutas and banes, we're encouraging really heavy HT-Archon play. the banes make the stalker play harder to pull off, and the mutas kind of prevent stargate play for a while. By mostly pacifying stargate units and blink stalkers, your brood lords will have complete dominance over the protoss
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United States8476 Posts
On November 16 2011 14:04 Belial88 wrote:
Who are you talking about? Leenock and Nestea? Shouldn't those games convinced you that banelings is stupid and broodlords is stupid?
You don't ever get speedbanes if protoss has HT. Ever. There's a reason you must always use baneling rain, either because of sentries, or HT. Nestea got incredibly lazy, and that he didnt load up his banes into overlords was extremely depressing. That's like a Zerg who forget zergling speed just saying 'fuck it, im way ahead anyways, ill make more slowlings and overwhelm his blue flame hellions with them!'.
From all your posts, you seem really narrow minded about what can work in ZvP. The strategy that the OP talks about is really viable, requires a lot of skill, and is a lot of fun. You rely on the fact that you can surround with banes and there's no way toss can storm every angle at the same time. In addition, you pick off sentries before the actual baneling engagement. Baneling drop would have been an incredibly poor choice in Nestea's situation as Huks' army was almost pure blink stalker with 1 or 2 archons and 3 or 4 templar.
It's also recommended you don't go hive/broodlords, or banelings, when go mutas in ZvP, because the gas is better spent on upgrades and more mutas. You just want to constantly increase the muta count, and maybe the upgrades too. 4 banelings is simply not worth the gas cost. You want to max out on mutas, if possible.
Who recommends this? Just you.
Nestea could have just won the game if he made more muta. His decision to do sillly stuff, was silly. He didn't have enough mutas. He should have also just basetraded with ling/muta, but huk never moved out. Which is okay, you just get more mutas. He didn't replace the mutas he had, he never expanded after 4 bases... he played like a diamond level after a certain point of the game.
Which is the 'thing' about zerg. You can't ever play like a diamond, no matter how ahead you are. Particularly with ling/muta style, a style which is paperthin. Even a masters vs a bronze protoss, when going ling/muta your army will always lose, and the game should almost always go to a basetrade where even as ahead as you are, you should be losing your main anyways in the base trade. You win because you put geysers everywhere and are super mobile with a high dps army.
This just seems like a rant.
Baneling rain is incredibly potent as an army. Imo, if the game is 2 base vs 2 base (i cant take a fast third, he went 3 gate expand, whatever) or if he does an opening that denies mutas (he opens stargate and makes a million fucking phoenix), baneling rain is the way to go (roach/banelingrain/infestor) in the midgame.
Imo there's a lot better routes to go than roach infestor baneling drop vs mass phoenix opening.
Right now, the metagame is that protoss likes to FFE. Zerg's popular metagame response, is fast third. 2 base muta vs 2 base protoss is total shit, and people stopped doing it about a year ago. But 3 base muta vs 2 base protoss, is fucking beast. You just make more, and more, and more mutas, and just win in a base trade.
He never said anything about 2 base muta.
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From all your posts, you seem really narrow minded about what can work in ZvP. The strategy that the OP talks about is really viable, requires a lot of skill, and is a lot of fun. You rely on the fact that you can surround with banes and there's no way toss can storm every angle at the same time. In addition, you pick off sentries before the actual baneling engagement. Baneling drop would have been an incredibly poor choice in Nestea's situation as Huks' army was almost pure blink stalker with 1 or 2 archons and 3 or 4 templar.
Baneling rain would have worked much better than speedbanes in his engagements, but banelings at all was a poor choice in the first place in that game.
There isn't really many situations speedbanes are good against protoss. The 2 times are against double stargate, to which you mass corruptor, then speedbanes because he has no sentries due to his all-in gas intensive opening, and after your baneling rain army just crushed the opponent and all his sentries died and you follow up with speedbanes to end the game instead of taking all the time to load up again (in such a situation, keeping to banelingrain would still be fine though, or just go to hive tech or mass roach).
Who recommends this? Just you.
Decaf, actually. When going mass muta, you make more mutas. Not spend the gas in other things. You win with mutas, or at least go to infestor/hive.
This just seems like a rant.
Cool. I commented about the games he seemed to be talking about.
Imo there's a lot better routes to go than roach infestor baneling drop vs mass phoenix opening.
Mass phoenix off of a 1 base opening? Roach/banelingrain/infestor, with more infestors to handle the air, or you can go with corruptors.
He never said anything about 2 base muta.
He did talk about the metagame. You don't really see mass muta when it's 2 base vs 2 base, like if protoss did a 1 base opening. You see mutas when going fast third vs FFE, but you don't see mass mutas when playing against 3 gate sentry expands because you aren't taking a 30 supply third.
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But 3 base muta vs 2 base protoss, is fucking beast.
Quoted for truth.
The reason for all the 2 base all-inning shit you see these days. Nothing wrong getting 3 bases and defending with HT/Archons/Blink stalkers, but you will have to work your ass off, no matter how good you are (if you saw Hero and HuK's games at the GSL lately, a little unfortunate though).
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The reason they are going broodlords is because ultra's are bad vs protoss. They just are, players who have gone ultra's vs protoss even when ahead seem to lose (at least from me watching them anyway). Broodlords are just a lot better, and you already have air superiority so void rays aren't a worry against broodlords.
Personally its a style I have been trying to get down better muta/ling (going to start trying muta/ling/bane) into muta/ling/bane/broodlord/infestor.
I still don't know if it will be a "standard" but we shall see there just isn't enough zvp in gsl to ever see T_T.
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Belial, there's no rules (as in, anyone is allowed to comment). But you should really stop acting like you know everything (eg. "roaches are bad in ZvZ", even when arguably the best foreign ZvZ'er, Sen, uses them so much) when you are a diamond/low-master player. It's extremely annoying for those who are actually trying to help, and extremely misleading for those who are seeking it.
I had a game today ZvP on Metal, used the ling/bling/muta to contain onto small numbers of bases. Eventually he just got frustrated and was building up 200 army of blink stalker/archon though, which would've torn me apart (with HT for Storm at home). The Broodlord transition is nice because it syncs really well with your standard spine defense, and also do nicely vs both HTs and Archons, two of the strongest units vs MutaLing.
I've also been experimenting with Ultras, but I dont like them as much as Broodlords.
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On November 16 2011 15:22 FairForever wrote:
Belial, there's no rules (as in, anyone is allowed to comment). But you should really stop acting like you know everything (eg. "roaches are bad in ZvZ", even when arguably the best foreign ZvZ'er, Sen, uses them so much) when you are a diamond/low-master player. It's extremely annoying for those who are actually trying to help, and extremely misleading for those who are seeking it.
I had a game today ZvP on Metal, used the ling/bling/muta to contain onto small numbers of bases. Eventually he just got frustrated and was building up 200 army of blink stalker/archon though, which would've torn me apart (with HT for Storm at home). The Broodlord transition is nice because it syncs really well with your standard spine defense, and also do nicely vs both HTs and Archons, two of the strongest units vs MutaLing.
I've also been experimenting with Ultras, but I dont like them as much as Broodlords.
I agree, keep it as a discussion and not a lecture. Use "I think" or "in my opinion" or "in this pro's opinion" or else your post seems rather arrogant and annoying, not to mention you're not a pro-player, so you don't get to sound condescending and get away with it.
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Its not only korean metagame. On europe at least half of the zergs go for mutas (tough rarely with banelings). They take a lot of bases and spinecrawler it up. This transitions very nicely into broodlord infestor because: the zerg has a lot of ags income, the zerg has a lot of spines.
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I'm like a ~700 master here's my 2 cents:
Muta is extremely difficult to deal with. If I go phoenix, they go more muta. If I try to defend, they go hive tech and get broodlords. Not sure why belai thinks muta -> bl's are bad, but it's really good. I saw Leenock do it on a stream before. He contains toss than gets broodlords and steam rolls, I think it's a viable and fun strat.
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it definitely does work. even though phoenix do bonus damage vs them they really have to open with phoenix to get anywhere near a good enough amount me them to be effective against the amount they need to deal with them. and i honestly dont think they can handle them in large numbers. unless you have insane micro.
going to try this definitely!
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On November 16 2011 14:59 NrGmonk wrote:
From all your posts, you seem really narrow minded
This is all you really needed to say, Just like I'll read your post cause its blue I always avoid his post cause its Belial88 lol.
Mutas can wreck protoss, but 2base mutas dont. But if you do whatever build gets you into the midgame then hard switch into mutas, you'll be in a good place. I think this is common knowledge, no?
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On November 16 2011 16:34 darkscream wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2011 14:59 NrGmonk wrote:
From all your posts, you seem really narrow minded
This is all you really needed to say, Just like I'll read your post cause its blue I always avoid his post cause its Belial88 lol. Mutas can wreck protoss, but 2base mutas dont. But if you do whatever build gets you into the midgame then hard switch into mutas, you'll be in a good place. I think this is common knowledge, no?
its not only in the strategy forum either. he likes to disagree. he argues with you about things even when the point he is trying make is exactly what you were saying in the first place
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On November 16 2011 16:52 eu.exodus wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2011 16:34 darkscream wrote:On November 16 2011 14:59 NrGmonk wrote:
From all your posts, you seem really narrow minded
This is all you really needed to say, Just like I'll read your post cause its blue I always avoid his post cause its Belial88 lol. Mutas can wreck protoss, but 2base mutas dont. But if you do whatever build gets you into the midgame then hard switch into mutas, you'll be in a good place. I think this is common knowledge, no? its not only in the strategy forum either. he likes to disagree. he argues with you about things even when the point he is trying make is exactly what you were saying in the first place
o.o I'm confused as to why he got banned, I don't really see the misbehavior like what you are describing? Other than he states his opinion(s) frankly. I wouldn't say that's narrow minded. If you're arguing something, you can be as aggressive about your opinion as you want as long as you're not disrespecting others (since there's no flame/BM on TL etc.)
if someone can clear it up for me then thanks 
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I think this is a very good strategy. Banelings are just awesome overall and perfect counter to HTs. Nestea just made too muny banelings and wasted all of them on stalkers when he could made just mass lings in that situation and gas spend on more broodlords. I am just wondering about muta timing, because if you go straight into mutas from lair then you may be hardcountered with mass phoenix which is quite often nowadays from protoss. What I am doing is just massing ling/bling, expanding and producing like 20+ mutas at once at ~15min to surprise him. But maybe that's too late dunno..
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So let me get this straight OP. There aren't any roaches in this build?
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On November 16 2011 17:19 sagefreke wrote:
So let me get this straight OP. There aren't any roaches in this build?
YES! NO ROACHES!! That's why it's so freaking confusing/awesome.
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On November 16 2011 17:05 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2011 16:52 eu.exodus wrote:On November 16 2011 16:34 darkscream wrote:On November 16 2011 14:59 NrGmonk wrote:
From all your posts, you seem really narrow minded
This is all you really needed to say, Just like I'll read your post cause its blue I always avoid his post cause its Belial88 lol. Mutas can wreck protoss, but 2base mutas dont. But if you do whatever build gets you into the midgame then hard switch into mutas, you'll be in a good place. I think this is common knowledge, no? its not only in the strategy forum either. he likes to disagree. he argues with you about things even when the point he is trying make is exactly what you were saying in the first place o.o I'm confused as to why he got banned, I don't really see the misbehavior like what you are describing? Other than he states his opinion(s) frankly. I wouldn't say that's narrow minded. If you're arguing something, you can be as aggressive about your opinion as you want as long as you're not disrespecting others (since there's no flame/BM on TL etc.) if someone can clear it up for me then thanks
I guess it was some form of accumilative ban.
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United States8476 Posts
On November 16 2011 17:05 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2011 16:52 eu.exodus wrote:On November 16 2011 16:34 darkscream wrote:On November 16 2011 14:59 NrGmonk wrote:
From all your posts, you seem really narrow minded
This is all you really needed to say, Just like I'll read your post cause its blue I always avoid his post cause its Belial88 lol. Mutas can wreck protoss, but 2base mutas dont. But if you do whatever build gets you into the midgame then hard switch into mutas, you'll be in a good place. I think this is common knowledge, no? its not only in the strategy forum either. he likes to disagree. he argues with you about things even when the point he is trying make is exactly what you were saying in the first place o.o I'm confused as to why he got banned, I don't really see the misbehavior like what you are describing? Other than he states his opinion(s) frankly. I wouldn't say that's narrow minded. If you're arguing something, you can be as aggressive about your opinion as you want as long as you're not disrespecting others (since there's no flame/BM on TL etc.) if someone can clear it up for me then thanks
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=32696¤tpage=1026
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EPT
