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On November 16 2011 17:05 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2011 16:52 eu.exodus wrote:On November 16 2011 16:34 darkscream wrote:On November 16 2011 14:59 NrGmonk wrote:
From all your posts, you seem really narrow minded
This is all you really needed to say, Just like I'll read your post cause its blue I always avoid his post cause its Belial88 lol. Mutas can wreck protoss, but 2base mutas dont. But if you do whatever build gets you into the midgame then hard switch into mutas, you'll be in a good place. I think this is common knowledge, no? its not only in the strategy forum either. he likes to disagree. he argues with you about things even when the point he is trying make is exactly what you were saying in the first place o.o I'm confused as to why he got banned, I don't really see the misbehavior like what you are describing? Other than he states his opinion(s) frankly. I wouldn't say that's narrow minded. If you're arguing something, you can be as aggressive about your opinion as you want as long as you're not disrespecting others (since there's no flame/BM on TL etc.) if someone can clear it up for me then thanks 
not so sure about that post but :
Belial88 was just temp banned for 30 days by Plexa.
That account was created on 2010-11-07 17:13:15 and had
1852 posts.
Reason: We're getting pretty annoyed with how you post
on these forums. If there isn't any improvement next ban
is a perm.
he really just gets on everyone's nerves. a lot of me the he just posts for the sake of posting and arguing.
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On November 16 2011 17:27 NrGmonk wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2011 17:05 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:On November 16 2011 16:52 eu.exodus wrote:On November 16 2011 16:34 darkscream wrote:On November 16 2011 14:59 NrGmonk wrote:
From all your posts, you seem really narrow minded
This is all you really needed to say, Just like I'll read your post cause its blue I always avoid his post cause its Belial88 lol. Mutas can wreck protoss, but 2base mutas dont. But if you do whatever build gets you into the midgame then hard switch into mutas, you'll be in a good place. I think this is common knowledge, no? its not only in the strategy forum either. he likes to disagree. he argues with you about things even when the point he is trying make is exactly what you were saying in the first place o.o I'm confused as to why he got banned, I don't really see the misbehavior like what you are describing? Other than he states his opinion(s) frankly. I wouldn't say that's narrow minded. If you're arguing something, you can be as aggressive about your opinion as you want as long as you're not disrespecting others (since there's no flame/BM on TL etc.) if someone can clear it up for me then thanks http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=32696¤tpage=1026
I forgot such a thread existed -.-; but I got a couple PMs as well. Thanks It makes sense if he's been warned about it before. I was confused, thinking it was like a first time thing.
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you just described my zvp style perfectly :D (ultras>broods)
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On November 16 2011 15:19 blade55555 wrote:
The reason they are going broodlords is because ultra's are bad vs protoss. They just are, players who have gone ultra's vs protoss even when ahead seem to lose (at least from me watching them anyway). Broodlords are just a lot better, and you already have air superiority so void rays aren't a worry against broodlords.
Personally its a style I have been trying to get down better muta/ling (going to start trying muta/ling/bane) into muta/ling/bane/broodlord/infestor.
I still don't know if it will be a "standard" but we shall see there just isn't enough zvp in gsl to ever see T_T.
Could you please elaborate why ultralisks are bad versus protoss?
Are not ultralisks faster, more durable, anti-armor damage against stalkers, psy-storm resistant and splash damage?
I understand that you shouldn't max out on ultralisks, but perhaps 4 or 5 ultras with banelings seem pretty dangerous.
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On November 16 2011 17:32 neoghaleon55 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2011 15:19 blade55555 wrote:
The reason they are going broodlords is because ultra's are bad vs protoss. They just are, players who have gone ultra's vs protoss even when ahead seem to lose (at least from me watching them anyway). Broodlords are just a lot better, and you already have air superiority so void rays aren't a worry against broodlords.
Personally its a style I have been trying to get down better muta/ling (going to start trying muta/ling/bane) into muta/ling/bane/broodlord/infestor.
I still don't know if it will be a "standard" but we shall see there just isn't enough zvp in gsl to ever see T_T. Could you please elaborate why ultralisks are bad versus protoss? Are not ultralisks faster, more durable, anti-armor damage against stalkers, psy-storm resistant and splash damage? I understand that you shouldn't max out on ultralisks, but perhaps 4 or 5 ultras with banelings seem pretty dangerous.
Ultralisks are not really bad vs. protoss, they just can be countered too easily, while it's much harder to counter broodlords if you have ground support for them. Nowadays protosses often goes into a lot of archons and ultras are really bad against them, i can say everything is bad against them except broodlords.
Edit: yes ultra/baneling is very strong, but when toss goes mass archons it's does not work.
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How many Mutas do you generally build before you go into Broodlords. I find the difficult part is that at a certain point the Mutas make up the majority of my army and I have little supply left for Broodlords let alone lings.
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On November 16 2011 17:41 sagefreke wrote:
How many Mutas do you generally build before you go into Broodlords. I find the difficult part is that at a certain point the Mutas make up the majority of my army and I have little supply left for Broodlords let alone lings.
i have the same problem. its either that i dont have enough gas to make any decent amount of broods or when i have the gas i dont have the supply.
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On November 16 2011 17:32 neoghaleon55 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2011 15:19 blade55555 wrote:
The reason they are going broodlords is because ultra's are bad vs protoss. They just are, players who have gone ultra's vs protoss even when ahead seem to lose (at least from me watching them anyway). Broodlords are just a lot better, and you already have air superiority so void rays aren't a worry against broodlords.
Personally its a style I have been trying to get down better muta/ling (going to start trying muta/ling/bane) into muta/ling/bane/broodlord/infestor.
I still don't know if it will be a "standard" but we shall see there just isn't enough zvp in gsl to ever see T_T. Could you please elaborate why ultralisks are bad versus protoss? Are not ultralisks faster, more durable, anti-armor damage against stalkers, psy-storm resistant and splash damage? I understand that you shouldn't max out on ultralisks, but perhaps 4 or 5 ultras with banelings seem pretty dangerous.
Its just really easy for a toss to start countering them. Zealot/archon/immortals/void rays (not just zealots by themselves of course  )
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On November 16 2011 17:32 neoghaleon55 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2011 15:19 blade55555 wrote:
The reason they are going broodlords is because ultra's are bad vs protoss. They just are, players who have gone ultra's vs protoss even when ahead seem to lose (at least from me watching them anyway). Broodlords are just a lot better, and you already have air superiority so void rays aren't a worry against broodlords.
Personally its a style I have been trying to get down better muta/ling (going to start trying muta/ling/bane) into muta/ling/bane/broodlord/infestor.
I still don't know if it will be a "standard" but we shall see there just isn't enough zvp in gsl to ever see T_T. Could you please elaborate why ultralisks are bad versus protoss? Are not ultralisks faster, more durable, anti-armor damage against stalkers, psy-storm resistant and splash damage? I understand that you shouldn't max out on ultralisks, but perhaps 4 or 5 ultras with banelings seem pretty dangerous.
Protoss can instantly warp in 15 zealots the second they see ultralisks, which do an excellent job of tanking for the rest of their stuff so the anti-armor abilities of the ultralisk are greatly reduced.
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From judging Leenock and Nestea's play, I don't think it is their unit-comp that won them the game. It was their opening build that got them the advantage (the fast third) and the final test was their execution of t1 roach-ling defense.
I would even go out on a limb and say ANY comp works after this point, as long as you have a good "meat" to your army (roaches most of the time). Be it mutas, mass banelings/bombing, just pure roach tunneling claws, infestor, upgraded ling/roach, roach/hydra.
TLDR: zerg just has to worry about setting up that 3rd and the initial defense. After that, just worry about having enough "stuff".
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On November 16 2011 17:52 blade55555 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2011 17:32 neoghaleon55 wrote:On November 16 2011 15:19 blade55555 wrote:
The reason they are going broodlords is because ultra's are bad vs protoss. They just are, players who have gone ultra's vs protoss even when ahead seem to lose (at least from me watching them anyway). Broodlords are just a lot better, and you already have air superiority so void rays aren't a worry against broodlords.
Personally its a style I have been trying to get down better muta/ling (going to start trying muta/ling/bane) into muta/ling/bane/broodlord/infestor.
I still don't know if it will be a "standard" but we shall see there just isn't enough zvp in gsl to ever see T_T. Could you please elaborate why ultralisks are bad versus protoss? Are not ultralisks faster, more durable, anti-armor damage against stalkers, psy-storm resistant and splash damage? I understand that you shouldn't max out on ultralisks, but perhaps 4 or 5 ultras with banelings seem pretty dangerous. Its just really easy for a toss to start countering them. Zealot/archon/immortals/void rays (not just zealots by themselves of course )
Well, I wouldn't say it is "they are just bad, because Protoss units are so good vs them". I don't know exactly, but from my overall experiences, ultralisks usually work well against lower supply counts, because lower supply counts mean lower dps which gives them more time to do damage. (pretty important for a melee unit)
But once the supply counts are similar (and rather high), they just die too fast, surround to slow and just eat too much of ones supply count. I would describe them as an "advantage" unit, something you want to crush the opponent with when you're ahead, but not as stable composition unit.
f.e. all the TvZ styles that use ultralisks try to hit an opponent with a huge supply lead --> fast (upgraded) ultralisks in ling/infestor/ultra builds, or remaxed ultralisks, when you can just outproduce your opponent.
So in conclusion I would say, with Protoss usually trying to stay around max in the lategame, there is just no way to really focus on the ultralisks strenghts.
That being said, I think the reason why so many people are going muta/ling/bling these days vs Protoss is simply that mutalisks are a really good unit to preserve advantages (like the eco lead 3base vs 2base openings give a zerg these days).
You make the protoss react to your composition, have constant scouting and prevent cornercutting (too fast teching/expanding). Furthermore Protoss style before mutalisks was mostly evolved around the Colossus (like FFE-->aggression-->Colossus), who is able to even out huge eco leads with ground superiority in the (late) midgame. With mutalisks you can force noncolossus play, which makes it way tougher to gain a solid vs ground force for protoss and therefore harder to pressure you.
The zergling part in the play is mostly the result of lacking gas early (you need everything for mutalisks), but also because they do very well against stalkers, which Protoss most likely will go for as mutadefense.
The banelings... I'm not sure, but I guess it comes mostly down to: when you already have zerglings and an income advantage and start to max out, you can't produce anything anymore so you just turn your zerglings into banelings due to all the money you have.
I think a more focused techplay to broodlords might be better, yet the difficulties with that usually are that your spire is upgrading and your mutanumbers need to hit ~30 to be a strong force (so no gas until then for tech) while you still need a lot of units, because mutalisks on their own are bad combatants. So you naturally hit high supply with high income (expansion and drones only cost minerals) before you have high tech and in the "in between" phase you go for banelings.
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On November 16 2011 18:02 Xequecal wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2011 17:32 neoghaleon55 wrote:On November 16 2011 15:19 blade55555 wrote:
The reason they are going broodlords is because ultra's are bad vs protoss. They just are, players who have gone ultra's vs protoss even when ahead seem to lose (at least from me watching them anyway). Broodlords are just a lot better, and you already have air superiority so void rays aren't a worry against broodlords.
Personally its a style I have been trying to get down better muta/ling (going to start trying muta/ling/bane) into muta/ling/bane/broodlord/infestor.
I still don't know if it will be a "standard" but we shall see there just isn't enough zvp in gsl to ever see T_T. Could you please elaborate why ultralisks are bad versus protoss? Are not ultralisks faster, more durable, anti-armor damage against stalkers, psy-storm resistant and splash damage? I understand that you shouldn't max out on ultralisks, but perhaps 4 or 5 ultras with banelings seem pretty dangerous. Protoss can instantly warp in 15 zealots the second they see ultralisks, which do an excellent job of tanking for the rest of their stuff so the anti-armor abilities of the ultralisk are greatly reduced.
Did you forget about the 30 banelings that accompanies the ultralisks?
In regards to protoss tech switching to immortal/voidrays....well, zergs should be able to transition into air/infestor as well.
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I actually agree with Belial88's concept of how to play 3base muta vs 2base.
Mass muta => Contain protoss => take literally every base => make mass baneling.
Baneling's in overlords are superior in almost every way to speed banelings on the ground... Almost the same speed, more or less immune to storm, and better splash is achieved. it's true that they can blink back with stalkers, but it's very easy to chase down stalkers with banelings in overlords, especially if you have some covering overlords. Also it means the stalkers are not hitting your mutas as they run (ideal) and if they blink, they are exposing the templars/archon which WILL die immediately to magic boxed muta + speedling/baneling (no archons yay!)
It's not a problem to lose the overlords because in baneling muta you have a lot of excess minerals. I always overmake overlords and put them literally everywhere.
The only advantage to speed banelings is that they cost a little less upgrade wise and they are easier to control.
Broodlords are only necessary if you really want to fight their army head on.. which is really unnecessary. If you take every base (which you should be able to do) you can just win the war of attrition. Destroy their base so they cannot reinforce, mass muta, then when they engage at spines at one of your bases, just crush the army with 3/3 banelings and 3/3 muta.
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On November 16 2011 15:13 Belial88 wrote:Decaf, actually. When going mass muta, you make more mutas. Not spend the gas in other things. You win with mutas, or at least go to infestor/hive.
Please, the guide I posted ( http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=277693 ) is displaying the way I play this matchup. If nestea comes up with a strategy you can be sure that it's a solid style, because he's nestea and his credibility is infinitely higher than mine (despite the fact that he and julyzerg inspired me to play like this). Not transitioning out of mutas is what I do and what works best in my opinion so don't quote me on it when discussing other styles.
I haven't seen these games so I cannot comment on them. There's not only one way to play a matchup. Just for clarification.
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omg I read this post for some insight on korean ZvP and got spoilered 
edit: please use spoiler tags people! I haven't gotten the chance to watch the latest round of code S yet!
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On November 17 2011 04:34 Skyro wrote:omg I read this post for some insight on korean ZvP and got spoilered edit: please use spoiler tags people! I haven't gotten the chance to watch the latest round of code S yet!
Are you freaking serious?
I never wrote anything in the OP about who the players are or what the results were.
There were no spoilers!
oh nevermind
I think you meant belial's post
oh, if it's any condolence, the guy's already been banned, he won't spoil anymore gsl for you
:D
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You can't win a game with mutas. You can control the game, you use the mutas to keep the toss in their base and not to attack you while you expand/tech up...
To answer OP's question, ultras are a good idea, but I feel they are still too clunky to be too viable. Mixing a few ultras in your army works well (which is why people have both greater spire + ultra tech at the same time), especially tech switching from bl to ultra. But I feel BL just works out better, at least for me.
On November 16 2011 17:41 sagefreke wrote:
How many Mutas do you generally build before you go into Broodlords. I find the difficult part is that at a certain point the Mutas make up the majority of my army and I have little supply left for Broodlords let alone lings.
Depends. Plus, I don't mind trading mutas for stalkers as long as I'm trading efficiently, especially since I should have a huge economical lead.
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I'll be honest, I think that this is really the future of ZvP. Mutas are just so strong, even if you don't get into that huge Muta death ball that a lot of people like to use. 15 or so Mutas are enough to really fucking with the Toss player's economy and building placement, etc.
Here are some of my reasons that haven't been mentioned in this thread as to why I think this style is so strong:
-Really strong basetrade style. After your third, if you suspect he is going to try and move out on two bases or even go into 3 bases and crush you, expanding around the map and getting a lot of spines at isolated bases can slow him down to the point where you can rape his bases as he moves away from his base and on to your creep.
-If his unit comp gets too focused on fighting mutas (pure stalker, archon), you can tech switched the shit out of him. Getting two evos anyways for ling upgrades, you can get 1/1 for your roaches and hydras because he doesn't know how many mutas you'll commit too.
-Mutas make it really hard to reinforce your push. Sniping pylons, probes trying to build more pylons, etc.
Downsides?
-Dies to the 2 base super fast +2 7 gate charge archon. Doesn't matter if you kill off all the archons with your mutas and he can't shoot up with the rest of the zealots. He will kill all your drones and queens faster than you can kill all of his zealots (while he turtles and gets blink and stalkers).
-Really battle specific army comp. You fight into a choke equals you lose. There is no real way around this point, you need to split up your lings/blings to get an good surround.
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Muta ZvP is really good right now against FFE, it allows you to get an absurd econ advantage, with constant scouting and the threat of a base trade. Toss players are SLOWLY figuring out little harassments out of FFE (usually involving WPs) to delay the sudden tech switch and huge econ, but I still think the problem lies with FFE itself. The top Z's in the world have just totally figured out how to stop mostly every harassment out of FFE, and going for gateway timing attacks against 3 base roach/spine/ling is nearly futile these days.
I think it's a good style, but is made even stronger by the weaknesses of FFE. I do hope we see more 1 gate expands in the future, or some sort of Gateway expand variant.
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United States8476 Posts
On November 17 2011 04:53 GlocKomA wrote:
Downsides?
-Dies to the 2 base super fast +2 7 gate charge archon. Doesn't matter if you kill off all the archons with your mutas and he can't shoot up with the rest of the zealots. He will kill all your drones and queens faster than you can kill all of his zealots (while he turtles and gets blink and stalkers).
You don't go really go muta on 3 base unless you know it's safe.
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EPT
