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You scout 3 gateways, 3 zealots, delayed warp gate tech, no gas units, and a twilight. What you should have done there is tried to figure out his build. Scout his natural and see if he's taken a natural. A zealot/archon allin requires 4-5 gates. A blink allin requires some amount of stalkers. A standard dt expand from protoss includes 3 gates. From this information, once you scout his expansion, you can definitively conclude that he's dt expanding. Make just 1-2 spores and 1 spine and immediately tech to lair while making a handful of lings. That's all you need, not 5 spines. Your lair was extremely late and thus your overseers were late to take a third.
I stole his gas.
You say you reacted to his tech by going roach baneling drop instead of ling baneling drop. But why go baneling anyways?
When I take a fast third in ZvP vs FFE (or whatever shenanigans happen in early game or the map lets me take fast third vs 1 gate expand) I go ling/roach late lair into mutas. But mutas suck on 2 base. Whatever.
So what I do when it's more a close economic game, is go ling/banelingrain. It's just what I think is the better composition. I generally transition into ling/banelingrain/infestor and i will make the last 50 supply roaches due to aoe becoming too great (critical mass colossi, storm). I think it's just how to play zvp, and it's worked well for me and it seems to work for the pros who do it.
It's for damage. Much like fungal growth. The difference is that baneling rain is a little stronger than FG, and that it better handles colossi and deathballs, and it also works well against zealots and HT. The tradeoff is that FG is worse against HT (fb) whereas baneling rain is immune to storm/fb and owns ht, but FG is more versatile and handles air units and roots. I prefer relying on banelingrain and using FG in small numbers for root later on.
You make 9 spores in total on 3 base vs 4 phoenix. I'd consider that a huge overreaction.
Hm. Okay. I think you are right. I had no idea he had phoenix and suddenly I saw about 6, I think I did overreact.
You should pretty much never have 3 evos. That kind of play is very unfocused, which is exactly how I would describe your play. You get a little bit of everything but not enough of anything to force things from your opponent.
yea.... i agree. I thought i was very far ahead, and I almost felt like the guy was wasting my time. Then I was getting a little agitated that he started to have a chance. Then I got kind of confused
If you ask any good player, they'll tell you the exact same things I did.
Overreacted to phoenix, should not have made corruptors, should have made roach/infestor instead of banelingrain to deal with archon based compositions... spire was really stupid, evo chamber and 9 spores was goofy. Got it.
I usually go very, very late lair even when going 2 base (i prefer full saturation) but I think when I'm 'ahead' in a game, like this one, I shoud've gotten it faster, especially against DTs. Okay.
3 gate expand means less units overall. If you put down a spore and a spine and made a few roaches then you would have been able to produce enough roaches and lings in response to a 3 gate pressure expand.
I prefer to rely solely on spines and make zero units, like I did in this game, than to make roaches or lings to defend early game pressure. I think spines are much more cost efficient, and you can't be aggressive with zerg anyways because of lack of speed on roaches, ff, wall-ins, etc.
Its not like I made both lings and spines. I just made spines. I don't think 5 spines was an overreaction, I stole his gas so what he made out of the gateway was unreliable to me. He also made a stalker next, so to me it looked like it was a possible blink all-in.
How to beat mass archon? Mass hydra beats mass archon.
No it doesn't... Please watch the replay at least. Why are you posting on a replay you haven't watched with a suggestion you've never even seen in action? I know you haven't seen in action, otherwise you wouldn't say something so silly and wrong.
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No it doesn't... Please watch the replay at least. Why are you posting on a replay you haven't watched with a suggestion you've never even seen in action? I know you haven't seen in action, otherwise you wouldn't say something so silly and wrong.
i watched the replay, why exactly my suggestion was bad? How do you know i didn't watch the replay? You didn't make a single hydra in the game and say it won't work.. Mass hydra would be best vs. that mix, add banelings if he is adding zealots and you are ready.
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United States8476 Posts
Show nested quote +You scout 3 gateways, 3 zealots, delayed warp gate tech, no gas units, and a twilight. What you should have done there is tried to figure out his build. Scout his natural and see if he's taken a natural. A zealot/archon allin requires 4-5 gates. A blink allin requires some amount of stalkers. A standard dt expand from protoss includes 3 gates. From this information, once you scout his expansion, you can definitively conclude that he's dt expanding. Make just 1-2 spores and 1 spine and immediately tech to lair while making a handful of lings. That's all you need, not 5 spines. Your lair was extremely late and thus your overseers were late to take a third. I stole his gas.
So? You can still rule out blink allin by scouting his expo.
Show nested quote +You say you reacted to his tech by going roach baneling drop instead of ling baneling drop. But why go baneling anyways? When I take a fast third in ZvP vs FFE (or whatever shenanigans happen in early game or the map lets me take fast third vs 1 gate expand) I go ling/roach late lair into mutas. But mutas suck on 2 base. Whatever. So what I do when it's more a close economic game, is go ling/banelingrain. It's just what I think is the better composition. I generally transition into ling/banelingrain/infestor and i will make the last 50 supply roaches due to aoe becoming too great (critical mass colossi, storm). I think it's just how to play zvp, and it's worked well for me and it seems to work for the pros who do it. It's for damage. Much like fungal growth. The difference is that baneling rain is a little stronger than FG, and that it better handles colossi and deathballs, and it also works well against zealots and HT. The tradeoff is that FG is worse against HT (fb) whereas baneling rain is immune to storm/fb and owns ht, but FG is more versatile and handles air units and roots. I prefer relying on banelingrain and using FG in small numbers for root later on.
I was asking why you got banelings in this game, not in general. My point was that mass roach would have been much better than roach baneling here.
Show nested quote +3 gate expand means less units overall. If you put down a spore and a spine and made a few roaches then you would have been able to produce enough roaches and lings in response to a 3 gate pressure expand. I prefer to rely solely on spines and make zero units, like I did in this game, than to make roaches or lings to defend early game pressure. I think spines are much more cost efficient, and you can't be aggressive with zerg anyways because of lack of speed on roaches, ff, wall-ins, etc. Its not like I made both lings and spines. I just made spines. I don't think 5 spines was an overreaction, I stole his gas so what he made out of the gateway was unreliable to me. He also made a stalker next, so to me it looked like it was a possible blink all-in.
I would highly suggest rethinking this. Lings allow you to get map control and threaten counter attacks. On the other hand, spines have no attacking potential later in the game. If a toss scouts so many spines, he can afford to play a lot more greedy than he normally would. I'll leave you with the thought that no high level zerg masses spines early game except when they're going 2 base muta.
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I have a hard time believing you were even 1k masters last season after watching that... (though to be fair, 1k masters last season is pretty close to diamond, considered low-mid masters, closer to the low end)
You really have no clue what you're doing. The loss had virtually nothing to do with the archons. You just massed spores and spines on two base while going "mass" roach (I use the word super liberally) and some banelings.
Your macro and decision making is terrible, you should really always be making units instead of spines unless (as mentioned by Monk) you're going two-base muta, because if you have no units your opponent can go for a third base relatively safely (scouts front and the ridic number of static D). Even if he had decided to all-in for whatever reason, you would not be ahead of him because you wasted so much resources just placing these spines, and didn't grab a third base (which of course you can't defend because you invested in spines instead of roaches/lings)
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OP did u watch the replay?!?!?!? U say u were way ahead on eco?!?!?!?! its funny how u probably got to masters just by holding bad players all ins and dont know what ur talking about. Also if ur view of ahead on economy is being even or slightly behind in 3rd and 4th bases and behind on workers most of the game, then there is something wrong with ur brain....... Also with that said NRGmonk is 100% correct now plz go l2P before arguing with a pro
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Asking for advice, then spitting on people who gave them ....
Oh i see what you wanna read :
"Bro, i don't understand aswell, i watched the replay. You were so far ahead, i think mass archon is just OP and u couldn't do anything else. Protoos imba QQ"
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First of i want to say, losing to diamond is pretty bad, if you are good player, you should beat diamond with whatever unit, because your mechanics and decision making are superior. Second you ask retarded question of how to beat mass archons? wth lol you are a, im not even zerg and to beat mass archon zealot you mass roaches and go attack him.
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Use mass muta with magic box to beat archons :D
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On November 13 2011 19:11 Belial88 wrote:I prefer to rely solely on spines and make zero units, like I did in this game, than to make roaches or lings to defend early game pressure. I think spines are much more cost efficient, and you can't be aggressive with zerg anyways because of lack of speed on roaches, ff, wall-ins, etc. Its not like I made both lings and spines. I just made spines. I don't think 5 spines was an overreaction, I stole his gas so what he made out of the gateway was unreliable to me. He also made a stalker next, so to me it looked like it was a possible blink all-in. No it doesn't... Please watch the replay at least. Why are you posting on a replay you haven't watched with a suggestion you've never even seen in action? I know you haven't seen in action, otherwise you wouldn't say something so silly and wrong.
Lol dude, you cannot rely solely on spines and make zero units. I don't know how in the hell you think you can advance in masters that way. How can you poke and scout expos? How would you scout things like whether he's upgrading with his Forge or not off of FFE, or whether he's doing zealot pressure off FFE if you aren't poking with lings?
How would you expect to scout whether he was doing Blink all in or DTs if you're not poking with lings to see when he pushes out/expos? Blink all in has no expo, DT expand does. If you had been poking well enough with lings instead of making 750 mins worth of spines, you would have known exactly what he was doing.
You speak with an arrogance that comes off like you think you know what you're doing, but you don't. 5 spines was an overreaction, are you kidding me? You see players cutting corners to try to put down as little static defense as possible, and save minerals wherever they can, and you think putting down 750 mins in static defense that did almost nothing doesn't put you behind? DT expand is a low econ version of 3 gate expo, it's actually so low econ that it's almost all in because Toss delays so much tech by doing it that they're almost forced to go Blink or Templar Tech, and if you deny the DTs (which any good Zerg should) then you can just mass roach in the midgame and a-move to victory.
Who in the world told you you can't be aggressive with early game Zerg? Roach/Ling all in isn't only good against FFE, it also has uses against DT expand after you stop the DTs, because they have drastically less sentries. Roach/Ling PRESSURE after a failed DT expand can do a TON of damage, even if they have 1 or 2 DTs hacking at you.
Mass hydra (lol) can beat mass archon in your scenario because the guy you played barely made zealots. If you knew even a little of what you were doing and had good macro you could have massed hydras and won lmao.
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To counter Archon/Zealot/Phoenix or just mass archon, all you need is mass roach with burrow & speed, throw in double evo for the extra upgrades and then just take as many bases as you can and keep throwing roaches at him
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Spines are pretty awful defensively, if you are gonna make no units to supplement them.
If your opponent does a gateway allin, sees the spines and retreats and takes a third, is he monumentally behind? No, he is ahead. If you have no tech or econ of your own to hide behind with spines, you cannot punish him for delaying his tech and economy.
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Mass Roach with proper spreading should be cost effective vs mass archon. Just make sure that you spread your roaches out as good as possible.
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I think you've got the mass archon thing figured out by now, but I don't think you understand that zerg play is generally reactive. Most people use roaches because roaches are effective against more protoss compositions. Bane rain is effective against mass gateway and colossus deathballs for sure, but in this instance you should have gone roaches. I'm not going to break down every response in this matchup, but suffice to say you should not have it in your head before the game starts that you're going to have baneling drops on 2 bases or whatever. You should try to think of each composition or building placed as a reaction to something you scout.
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So? You can still rule out blink allin by scouting his expo.
Right, but you were saying i should be able to tell he wasn't going blink stalkers by no stalkers with his first 2 units, and then his third unit was a stalker anyways. I saw the expo and took it as a chance to get lair.
I was asking why you got banelings in this game, not in general. My point was that mass roach would have been much better than roach baneling here.
For the zealots. I already had baneling tech since I was going ling/bane. I didn't necessarily make more banes, I just made the lings into banes and didnt make many more lings.
I would highly suggest rethinking this. Lings allow you to get map control and threaten counter attacks. On the other hand, spines have no attacking potential later in the game. If a toss scouts so many spines, he can afford to play a lot more greedy than he normally would. I'll leave you with the thought that no high level zerg masses spines early game except when they're going 2 base muta.
Perhaps I overreacted with the spines, then. I don't know if I agree, as a sentry and wall-in on many maps just denies any counterattack possibility.
As for no high level zerg masses spines, I think it's just I overreacted. But high level zergs definitely do rely on spines instead of units for defense. I didn't make any units, the commitment of spines I made was about a handful of roaches, which can't do anything before roach speed anyways.
You really have no clue what you're doing. The loss had virtually nothing to do with the archons. You just massed spores and spines on two base while going "mass" roach (I use the word super liberally) and some banelings.
I think my biggest mistake that game was trying to be aggressive. You call it my '2 base mass roach all-in', I was just trying to deny his third that he defended with zealots and like 3-4 archons.
I think I should know better that zerg aggression before 75 drones is just horrible. I think that aggression just completely set me back.
I already said I think I overreacted with the spores. I had banes already, it's not like I added them. They had use against zealots so they weren't useless.
Lol dude, you cannot rely solely on spines and make zero units. I don't know how in the hell you think you can advance in masters that way. How can you poke and scout expos? How would you scout things like whether he's upgrading with his Forge or not off of FFE, or whether he's doing zealot pressure off FFE if you aren't poking with lings?
I make 2-4 lings for scouting purposes in the early game, and use overlord and drone scouting. I'm saying I don't make any units for defensive purposes, and rely on spines for defense instead of units. I get speed if it's a 1 base opening, like in this game, so if necessary I can get speedlings. Maybe you should watch the replay, your long post isn't helpful.
If your opponent does a gateway allin, sees the spines and retreats and takes a third, is he monumentally behind? No, he is ahead. If you have no tech or econ of your own to hide behind with spines, you cannot punish him for delaying his tech and economy.
I disagree, and I'll be happy to be proven wrong.
3 spines, or roughly 450 minerals, is necessary to stop, say, 3 gate sentry pressure without units. For roughly 450 minerals, you can only get 4 roaches (and ignore the roach warren that you have to make super early with which you can't do any aggression with until roach speed anyways) and, most critically imo, you need to have a gas geyser running. 4 roaches will not come near to stopping 3 gate sentry pressure on their own, but 3 spines will stop it cold, as well as prevent any sort of ramp blocks or forcefield shenanigans.
I prefer to run on higher mineral income for longer, not have to mine gas, and make pure drones and get a later lair. I think in this game I made a mistake in not getting lair sooner against a DT expand though.
Anyways, my point is that spines are preferable to units in the early game. I don't think making a roach warren before 50 supply is worth it in ZvP, unless you are doing an all-in.
I think the big mistake was making too many spines, but what I scouted was either DTs or blink all-in, and I didn't think overreacting to spines would have been a problem. I figured I was so ahead by that point, I could've made 10 spines and had been fine.
To counter Archon/Zealot/Phoenix or just mass archon, all you need is mass roach with burrow & speed, throw in double evo for the extra upgrades and then just take as many bases as you can and keep throwing roaches at him
It would be helpful if you watched the replay...
but, I do have a response to this. If this is what you recommend, do you think I should mass 2 base roach to deny his third, or do you think I should go pure econ first to 75 drones on 3 base before I turn on the aggression, even if it means he gets to take his third?
I think that was a big part of the problem in this game, that I went 2 base aggression to deny his fast third and he pretty much barely held off my attack with warp ins, reinforcement, defenders advantage, etc, but it was enough to, imo, put him ahead.
Mass Roach with proper spreading should be cost effective vs mass archon. Just make sure that you spread your roaches out as good as possible.
I think mass roach with spread beats archon/zealot. This guy didn't go archon/zealot, it was just pure archons. Please watch the replay, I don't think there's much spreading you can do against mass archons. A mass archon ball is much bigger in size than a roach army, he's the one that's having the surround.
but suffice to say you should not have it in your head before the game starts that you're going to have baneling drops on 2 bases or whatever. You should try to think of each composition or building placed as a reaction to something you scout.
So instead, I should have it in my head that I'm going roach/hydra?
I disagree. I think ling/banelingrain is the 'staple' composition in ZvP, and based on what I scout and react to, I go in different directions (more roaches for storm, more rain for gateway, more infestors for air, more corruptors for heavy colossi, etc).
I think next time I see archon based compositions though, I'll go for infestors before banelings, and go roach/infestor. I think that's one composition where roach/infestor would've been beter, and I think my overcommitment to corruptors and baneling rain/speed delayed infestors. I think I overcommitted to spines and spores (perhaps arrogance in thinking I was farther ahead than I was), and I think trying to delay his third was stupid when I didn't have my own third.
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Mass archons is a lot of gas... There's no way he could've done that really quickly. Just get a roach army and kill him before he gets there. If he does get to a critical amount, just trade armies. He won't be able to remax as easily as stalker/zealot/colossus.
Also, expand everywhere.
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Honestly Belial, most of your 'help' threads seem to simply be excuses to whine about Protoss being imbalanced.
In any case, I have absolutely no idea what to make of the replay. Nothing you did makes any sense to me. Why did you build 5 billion spines and spore crawlers to defend what amounted to 2 DTs and 5 or 6 phoenixes? Why did you get three evo chambers? Why did you expand at the 11:30-12 minute mark? Why did you put banelings on the watch-towers? Why did you inexplicably send 10+ overlords to the expo above his base to start spewing creep? Why did you go roach/baneling against what was effectively phoenix/archon and why did you suicide your initial force into his third? (and then why did you suicide your second army in exactly the same way?)
None of your decisions in the game make any logical sense whatsoever. It wasn't even the archons which killed you, it was the fact that you put yourself behind in economy because of your static defence spamming and incredibly late expo, the fact that your army composition was really weird and ineffective, and the fact that both of your major engagements were God-awful.
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On November 14 2011 08:22 Belial88 wrote:
For the zealots. I already had baneling tech since I was going ling/bane. I didn't necessarily make more banes, I just made the lings into banes and didnt make many more lings.
So you know, roaches are more efficient against zealots than banelings are both in gas and larva cost. I'm not sure what you saw to prompt a baneling nest, but I rewatched the reply and you knew he had DTs and 3 zealots and a phoenix before your baneling nest finished. I think you should have cancelled it and focused on making roaches. Lings are good for things other than morphing into banelings.
On November 14 2011 08:22 Belial88 wrote:
I make 2-4 lings for scouting purposes in the early game, and use overlord and drone scouting. I'm saying I don't make any units for defensive purposes, and rely on spines for defense instead of units. I get speed if it's a 1 base opening, like in this game, so if necessary I can get speedlings. Maybe you should watch the replay, your long post isn't helpful.
Spines let you hold big gateway attacks if they come, but it didn't. If those spines had been lings you would have been able to delay the expand while securing your third. I think the only debate you could be having is whether it was worth it to place your second spine, but spines 3, 4 and 5 were bad. One spine is 6 lings and I think you would fare better with 1 spine, producing roaches while the attack moves out, and reinforce with lings. It's hard to make spines while the attack is coming, but it's easy to make units while an attack's coming. I think you should try to figure out what the minimum amount of spines you need to hold an attack that you reinforce.
On November 14 2011 08:22 Belial88 wrote:
I disagree, and I'll be happy to be proven wrong.
3 spines, or roughly 450 minerals, is necessary to stop, say, 3 gate sentry pressure without units. For roughly 450 minerals, you can only get 4 roaches (and ignore the roach warren that you have to make super early with which you can't do any aggression with until roach speed anyways) and, most critically imo, you need to have a gas geyser running. 4 roaches will not come near to stopping 3 gate sentry pressure on their own, but 3 spines will stop it cold, as well as prevent any sort of ramp blocks or forcefield shenanigans.
I prefer to run on higher mineral income for longer, not have to mine gas, and make pure drones and get a later lair. I think in this game I made a mistake in not getting lair sooner against a DT expand though.
Anyways, my point is that spines are preferable to units in the early game. I don't think making a roach warren before 50 supply is worth it in ZvP, unless you are doing an all-in.
I think the big mistake was making too many spines, but what I scouted was either DTs or blink all-in, and I didn't think overreacting to spines would have been a problem. I figured I was so ahead by that point, I could've made 10 spines and had been fine.
I don't disagree with the 3 spine bit, but I think it is more effective to put down 1 spine and a roach warren then make roaches if an attack comes. If you made a 12-16 lings you could have easily delayed the opponent's expansion. If you make spines only, then your opponent can easily take his bases (in this game it was two bases). You have more economy with this route because your spines are drones and your units are delaying the opponent's economy or haven't been built yet. Instead of spending money on those spines in this game, you could have spent it on lings and drones, or lings and roaches if the attack came. Either way you'd be ahead but you can't make that decision with your style.
On November 14 2011 08:22 Belial88 wrote:
I think mass roach with spread beats archon/zealot. This guy didn't go archon/zealot, it was just pure archons. Please watch the replay, I don't think there's much spreading you can do against mass archons. A mass archon ball is much bigger in size than a roach army, he's the one that's having the surround.
Roaches are effective against archons and they are effective against zealots. I think your issue was macro and roaches are easy to macro. If you had engaged at your opponent's natural then you could have kited the zealots and archons on three bases. Run a custom game and practice using roaches against archons - they do pretty well.
On November 14 2011 08:22 Belial88 wrote:
So instead, I should have it in my head that I'm going roach/hydra?
I disagree. I think ling/banelingrain is the 'staple' composition in ZvP, and based on what I scout and react to, I go in different directions (more roaches for storm, more rain for gateway, more infestors for air, more corruptors for heavy colossi, etc).
That's not what I said. I said you shouldn't have it in your head that you are going bane rain on 2 bases and should play more reactively. What I meant by this is that if you know what your composition is going to be before you get into the game, then you are limiting yourself. There is no 'staple' composition in ZvP because Protoss can throw a lot of different things against you. If you can't get out of this mindset, then your 'staple' composition is drones, overlords and lings for scouting and backstabbing.
What you scouted was DTs and imo bane rain is less effective against DTs than roaches are. I think any good player will tell you that putting down that baneling nest based on what you scouted was a bad idea. I think bane rain is good against massive gateway compositions or gateway/colossi compositions. There is a way to play your style, but based on what you scouted I think you made a bad decision. A roach warren only costs minerals so it's not a bad building to have down in case of emergency on this map. I just think you're really hung up on this Morrow style because it was on a Day[9] and you're not thinking very clearly about when it is and isn't effective.
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Complaining about the good advice your given won't make your bad play any more viable...
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On November 13 2011 14:48 Aterons_toss wrote:
First thing first how the fuck do you get 1k master and still play diamonds o.o !?
Now ot, mass archon seems like kind of a bitch if you let him get it so lets talk not letting him get it.
First thing firs archons have freaking 3 range that means you can go for a hydra bust with ovys creeping and kill his forge and w.e without him being able to really do anything and then you can be annoying with the hydras and try to kite the archons in sort of a "nanan 3 more range then you" fashino ( pretty much how a T would kite your ling with a reaper ).
oky now vs the actual mass archon... gues what ? archons have 3 range gues what has 9 range ? fungual ? gues what the patch blizzard released recently did... not removing fungual stunt. You get the idea, and yeah it is tiring to kill 40 archons with 20 infestors and support roaches but it works
You can also go fast blords + infestor and then they are really in deep shit or even broodlords roach if you can't afford infestor other then that 200/200 roach and enough larva to remax can also work if you kite well enough or hydra with good enough kiteing.
Alas it is only theory since i have never ever been in a situation to play mass archon or to play vs it but thats what sound most reasonable to me to deal with them.
He played against a diamond because the diamond was most likely a smurf and on a crazy win streak before getting promoted.
Best way to deal with mass archon is to get as many bases as you can (archons are really bad at counter attacks ^^) and trade archons for roaches. Basically if you deny his 3rd or at least deny his 4th and take 5 bases yourself you should be able to throw away units.
Of course the fact that he went DT archons means he has more minerals to go towards expansions which I find odd why he didn't have more zealots.
DTs are also really easy to deal with when you have a lead, my high master protoss friend told me that the best way when you get 3 base and they have only 2 base and they have DT, is to make a handful of spines and 2 spores at each base. This basically denies him any passage into your expansions (thus the idea of DTs). Once on 3 fully saturated bases, keep amassing roaches and slowly tech to broodlords. Even if he has pheonix you should be able to get a slew of broodlords out and beat the protoss (no pesky blink stalker run bys).
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My advice is that you don't make a help thread without first thinking about what you could have done. Come to the thread with some ideas, don't straight ask for help. You clearly started this thread in a tilting mood with the way you shot down suggestions from monk, someone who has a lot of experience with replay analysis, which show's that you're not ready to approach the game with the right attitude.
Keep in mind this is a strategy game, so there's not always a right and wrong way to do things. You can justify your compositions and choices, but if you choose to believe that you're making the right decisions (no warren before 50, more spines for defense) then you should be prepared to acknowledge that people may not be able to help you in the way you want. For a highly exaggerated point, if I play a marine/hellion/raven tvz and am having trouble with mass roach, the natural response is to make tanks, but if i insist that marine/hellion/raven is a viable strategy, I'll have to find my own way around it.
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EPT
