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I had someone go mass archon against me.... kind of ridiculous.
I was 1kpoint masters, this guy was diamond. He opened 3 gate DT, I held it off extremely easily, and grabbed a quick third. I was ahead of this guy the entire game, and when he went to take a third I put on pressure, but wasn't quite able to kill him.
He then just massed archons all game. He made some phoenix too, I just made corruptors to deal with his weird hodgepodge of zealot/archon/phoenix. I normally go roach/bane/infestor and handle it easily, but this guy just purely made only archons instead of any accompanying zealots. I don't think he was maxed, but he pretty much pushed off with a mass archon ball and I couldnt quite have anything to deal with it. I put on a lot of aggression, but tried to never overcommit without dealing equal damage to him.
i was pretty much maxed the entire game long. Kept up on upgrades, that kind of stuff.
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-241529.jpg)
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First thing first how the fuck do you get 1k master and still play diamonds o.o !?
Now ot, mass archon seems like kind of a bitch if you let him get it so lets talk not letting him get it.
First thing firs archons have freaking 3 range that means you can go for a hydra bust with ovys creeping and kill his forge and w.e without him being able to really do anything and then you can be annoying with the hydras and try to kite the archons in sort of a "nanan 3 more range then you" fashino ( pretty much how a T would kite your ling with a reaper ).
oky now vs the actual mass archon... gues what ? archons have 3 range gues what has 9 range ? fungual ? gues what the patch blizzard released recently did... not removing fungual stunt. You get the idea, and yeah it is tiring to kill 40 archons with 20 infestors and support roaches but it works
You can also go fast blords + infestor and then they are really in deep shit or even broodlords roach if you can't afford infestor other then that 200/200 roach and enough larva to remax can also work if you kite well enough or hydra with good enough kiteing.
Alas it is only theory since i have never ever been in a situation to play mass archon or to play vs it but thats what sound most reasonable to me to deal with them.
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Infestors with neural + i personally use ling bling (enough blings to mostly remove all zealots) but I think using roach ling instead of ling bling is quite a bit better (mainly roach heavy, you just build lings with excess minerals).
But in the end regardless if you chose ling bling or roach ling it comes down to having infestors with neural, when you got that you just roflstomp archon zealot, and you seem to know how to deal with phoenix so np there.
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First thing first how the fuck do you get 1k master and still play diamonds o.o !?
Customs, other accounts, etc.
Now ot, mass archon seems like kind of a bitch if you let him get it so lets talk not letting him get it.
Maybe you should watch the game...
From what I've understood and personal experience, roach/hydra is worse than pure roach against archons.
You can also go fast blords + infestor and then they are really in deep shit or even broodlords roach if you can't afford infestor other then that 200/200 roach and enough larva to remax can also work if you kite well enough or hydra with good enough kiteing.
Alas it is only theory since i have never ever been in a situation to play mass archon or to play vs it but thats what sound most reasonable to me to deal with them.
So, you are telling me that while I'm 'not letting him get archons' I somehow must also be getting 8 broodlords, which costs over 2k in gas to get? And throw a few infestors in there too.
Alas it is only theory since i have never ever been in a situation to play mass archon or to play vs it but thats what sound most reasonable to me to deal with them.
You would think.
But in the end regardless if you chose ling bling or roach ling it comes down to having infestors with neural, when you got that you just roflstomp archon zealot, and you seem to know how to deal with phoenix so np there.
So infestors are the answer? I think whenever you try to be aggressive with zerg, it just blows up in your face. I need to stop trying to be aggressive with zerg ;/
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Did you mean 1k masters this season or last? There are like less than 10 people who are 1k masters right now. ><"
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United States8476 Posts
You just had extremely poor decision making the entire game. Your lings got into his base and you should have known some dt expand or stupid chargelot timing was coming. Didn't need 5 spines. Instead, scout his expansion and take a fast 3rd. You then tried to go roach/baneling drop off 2 base, which should only be done as an allin. Because you took such a late 3rd and invested in so much tech, you couldn't deny his third. You especially shouldn't blindly go this roach baneling drop tech route. To be honest, roach baneling is only good versus a protoss who goes straight colossi. You're better off with other choices if he opens voidray, phenoix, immortals archons, or blink stalkers. For your situation, just mass roach, nothing but roach and macro. Have hydra or corruptor tech, but honestly you don't even have to get the actual versus so few phenoix.
You also make 4 spores in your natural for some reason and 3 in your main...
You have 3 evo chambers for some reason as well....
In conclusion:
- Poor macro decisions which left you behind in economy
- Blindly choosing a tech
- Not having enough roaches to deny his 3rd because of the previous 2 reasons
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surely hydras + fungals can clean up archon/phoenix with no troubles?
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If Archons can hit the opponent, they're effective against every zerg unit. Fungal + More-than-range-3-units, Broodlords or neural parasite work really well.
If he has the gas to go mass Archon, you have the gas to get Broodlords or Infestors, although it may not be the best idea to go for both simultaneously.
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He basically just outmacroed you -- despite some extremely nice baneling hits on his zealots, you just didn't have enough roaches to finish off the army. He was equal or ahead of you on bases and worker count for the most of the game, which is definitely not what you want to have happen if you go roaches. That said, I think you should have taken your third and fourth much earlier, and I disagree with the choice of corruptors. Infestors are much better for killing phoenix and help immensely against his main zealot-archon army. You might even consider getting neural parasite (yes, I know people really hate it now, but it actually works quite well against archons due to their short range). However, if you do get corruptors, you only need maybe 2 for every 3 phoenix at most -- not 10 for 6. Your high corruptor count really cut into your roach production.
Also, please try to give a more accurate summary of the game next time -- it really helps if you want accurate advice. You did not take a "quick" third -- you didn't take one until the 12 minute mark (well past the "standard" third timing of 10 minutes), which was almost exactly when your opponent took his third. You were behind on upgrades all game, and in fact did not max out until 1 minute before the game ended.
Sorry for the rage, but since so many people seem to not watch the replay when responding to these threads, it's really important to give an accurate description if you want useful advice.
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Don't lie about your skill level, 1k masters this season is essentially GM level.
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You just had extremely poor decision making the entire game. Your lings got into his base and you should have known some dt expand or stupid chargelot timing was coming. Didn't need 5 spines. Instead, scout his expansion and take a fast 3rd. You then tried to go roach/baneling drop off 2 base, which should only be done as an allin. Because you took such a late 3rd and invested in so much tech, you couldn't deny his third. You especially shouldn't blindly go this roach baneling drop tech route. To be honest, roach baneling is only good versus a protoss who goes straight colossi. You're better off with other choices if he opens voidray, phenoix, immortals archons, or blink stalkers. For your situation, just mass roach, nothing but roach and macro. Have hydra or corruptor tech, but honestly you don't even have to get the actual versus so few phenoix.
He had 3 gateways. If he had done a gateway all-in or dt/gateway or archon/gateway all-in, I would've died. I had zero units, and didn't plan to make any. I don't think the spines were bad considering how I followed up, but I don't want to reject your advice. That's just how I see it, and I think making spines wasn't a bad decision. If it was just 2 gateways or a single gateway, I would not have made so many.
I was also a little worried he would transition into blink, since he didn't put the DT shrine down when I was in his base. A 3 gate blink all-in would've killed me, so I made lots of spines. It wasn't immediately clear what he was doing, and he could've been doing either of those based on what I scouted.
Instead, scout his expansion and take a fast 3rd. You then tried to go roach/baneling drop off 2 base, which should only be done as an allin.
Can't take a third without overseer against DTs. I saw the Dts and so stuck to 2 base. I got my third quite quickly as fast as I could. I may have tried to pressure first.
Because you took such a late 3rd and invested in so much tech, you couldn't deny his third. You especially shouldn't blindly go this roach baneling drop tech route. To be honest, roach baneling is only good versus a protoss who goes straight colossi. You're better off with other choices if he opens voidray, phenoix, immortals archons, or blink stalkers. For your situation, just mass roach, nothing but roach and macro. Have hydra or corruptor tech, but honestly you don't even have to get the actual versus so few phenoix.
I didn't blindly go roach/baneling drop. My composition of choice in a ZvP where it's even bases (ie not fast third vs ffe) is ling/baneling rain. I went with roaches instead due to archons.
So you think the drop tech wasn't worth it? I should just mass pure roach next time? I went with speedbanes once I saw no sentries.
You also make 4 spores in your natural for some reason and 3 in your main...
You have 3 evo chambers for some reason as well....
4 spores because of the phoenixes, 3 evo chambers for upgrades. I thought 3 evo would be good with what I was doing.
In conclusion:
Poor macro decisions which left you behind in economy
Blindly choosing a tech
Not having enough roaches to deny his 3rd because of the previous 2 reasons
I think i was quite ahead in econ, no? I don't think my macro decision were poor, he had Dts, can't take a third without spores. I didn't blindly choose tech, ling/bane is what I consider standard, and I went with roaches as a reaction to what he was doing.
So next time I see archons like this, just go pure roach, eventually infestors?
If he has the gas to go mass Archon, you have the gas to get Broodlords or Infestors, although it may not be the best idea to go for both simultaneously.
Watch the game then. Archons much easier to get out then broodlords or infestors. It's not like he pushed when he was maxed, I reckon he was around 140.
Infestors are much better for killing phoenix and help immensely against his main zealot-archon army. You might even consider getting neural parasite (yes, I know people really hate it now, but it actually works quite well against archons due to their short range). However, if you do get corruptors, you only need maybe 2 for every 3 phoenix at most -- not 10 for 6. Your high corruptor count really cut into your roach production.
Hm okay. I thought infestors wouldn't have cut it against the phoenix and would take too much gas. But okay, I see how I made too many corruptors. I just won't make corruptors next time.
Don't lie about your skill level, 1k masters this season is essentially GM level.
Thanks for the insightful post. I'll be sure to edit the OP to please you. I was 1k masters last season.
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corrupters are trash unit, unless its for stupid amounts of collosus or mothership.
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^ Yea, I think maybe I wasted too much on them. I guess infestors would've been the right choice.
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United States8476 Posts
On November 13 2011 15:26 Belial88 wrote:Show nested quote +You just had extremely poor decision making the entire game. Your lings got into his base and you should have known some dt expand or stupid chargelot timing was coming. Didn't need 5 spines. Instead, scout his expansion and take a fast 3rd. You then tried to go roach/baneling drop off 2 base, which should only be done as an allin. Because you took such a late 3rd and invested in so much tech, you couldn't deny his third. You especially shouldn't blindly go this roach baneling drop tech route. To be honest, roach baneling is only good versus a protoss who goes straight colossi. You're better off with other choices if he opens voidray, phenoix, immortals archons, or blink stalkers. For your situation, just mass roach, nothing but roach and macro. Have hydra or corruptor tech, but honestly you don't even have to get the actual versus so few phenoix.
He had 3 gateways. If he had done a gateway all-in or dt/gateway or archon/gateway all-in, I would've died. I had zero units, and didn't plan to make any. I don't think the spines were bad considering how I followed up, but I don't want to reject your advice. That's just how I see it, and I think making spines wasn't a bad decision. If it was just 2 gateways or a single gateway, I would not have made so many. I was also a little worried he would transition into blink, since he didn't put the DT shrine down when I was in his base. A 3 gate blink all-in would've killed me, so I made lots of spines. It wasn't immediately clear what he was doing, and he could've been doing either of those based on what I scouted. Show nested quote + Instead, scout his expansion and take a fast 3rd. You then tried to go roach/baneling drop off 2 base, which should only be done as an allin. Can't take a third without overseer against DTs. I saw the Dts and so stuck to 2 base. I got my third quite quickly as fast as I could. I may have tried to pressure first. Show nested quote +Because you took such a late 3rd and invested in so much tech, you couldn't deny his third. You especially shouldn't blindly go this roach baneling drop tech route. To be honest, roach baneling is only good versus a protoss who goes straight colossi. You're better off with other choices if he opens voidray, phenoix, immortals archons, or blink stalkers. For your situation, just mass roach, nothing but roach and macro. Have hydra or corruptor tech, but honestly you don't even have to get the actual versus so few phenoix. I didn't blindly go roach/baneling drop. My composition of choice in a ZvP where it's even bases (ie not fast third vs ffe) is ling/baneling rain. I went with roaches instead due to archons. So you think the drop tech wasn't worth it? I should just mass pure roach next time? I went with speedbanes once I saw no sentries. Show nested quote +You also make 4 spores in your natural for some reason and 3 in your main...
You have 3 evo chambers for some reason as well.... 4 spores because of the phoenixes, 3 evo chambers for upgrades. I thought 3 evo would be good with what I was doing. Show nested quote +In conclusion:
Poor macro decisions which left you behind in economy
Blindly choosing a tech
Not having enough roaches to deny his 3rd because of the previous 2 reasons I think i was quite ahead in econ, no? I don't think my macro decision were poor, he had Dts, can't take a third without spores. I didn't blindly choose tech, ling/bane is what I consider standard, and I went with roaches as a reaction to what he was doing. So next time I see archons like this, just go pure roach, eventually infestors?
I think you're being a little too stubborn in your ways to see the points i'm trying to make.
You scout 3 gateways, 3 zealots, delayed warp gate tech, no gas units, and a twilight. What you should have done there is tried to figure out his build. Scout his natural and see if he's taken a natural. A zealot/archon allin requires 4-5 gates. A blink allin requires some amount of stalkers. A standard dt expand from protoss includes 3 gates. From this information, once you scout his expansion, you can definitively conclude that he's dt expanding. Make just 1-2 spores and 1 spine and immediately tech to lair while making a handful of lings. That's all you need, not 5 spines. Your lair was extremely late and thus your overseers were late to take a third.
If you watch the incomes throughout the game, throughout most of the game, you were behind in econ, which is terrible for ZvP.
You make an early evo but don't start any upgrades. Then you make 3 evos to start upgrading everything.
Drop, baneling nest, and overlord speed is way too big an investment on 2 base versus what he was doing. As I've said before, if you get all those on 2 base, you pretty much have to win with those upgrades immediately.
You say you reacted to his tech by going roach baneling drop instead of ling baneling drop. But why go baneling anyways?
You make 9 spores in total on 3 base vs 4 phoenix. I'd consider that a huge overreaction.
You should pretty much never have 3 evos. That kind of play is very unfocused, which is exactly how I would describe your play. You get a little bit of everything but not enough of anything to force things from your opponent.
Imagine if you made 3 spores instead of 9, 1 spine instead of 5, 1-2 evos instead of 3, a faster 3rd, and skip baneling nest and drop. That's about 2300 extra resources you could have saved not including the faster third.
If you ask any good player, they'll tell you the exact same things I did.
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Right...
Your macro was pretty bad. He was ahead of you in workers the entire game, you blindly threw down 5 spines because you saw 3 gates, when instead you should have been looking at his sentry count and expansion timing. Any delay past around 5:40 or so with less sentries than 4-5 is NOT 3 gate expo. Less sentries or no sentries means he's spending his gas on something, and oh crap I just noticed that you SAW the twilight, you drastically overreacted to what was a simple DT expand.
1 spine, 1 spore, a few lings and fast Lair should have been how you responded, but you threw down FIVE SPINES. That's 500 mins + 5 drones needing to be remade.
You then blindly tech to Roach/Bane drop on 2 base, but you DON'T use it to kill his third (which you scout late anyway), you try to take a third, so then you're even. You don't use changelings or ling runbys to get a glimpse of his unit composition, because with good macro mass roach beats mass archon, I don't care what the Toss does. But instead you had crap macro, crap decision making, and well, you deserved to lose..
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On November 13 2011 15:04 NrGmonk wrote:You just had extremely poor decision making the entire game. Your lings got into his base and you should have known some dt expand or stupid chargelot timing was coming. Didn't need 5 spines. Instead, scout his expansion and take a fast 3rd. You then tried to go roach/baneling drop off 2 base, which should only be done as an allin. Because you took such a late 3rd and invested in so much tech, you couldn't deny his third. You especially shouldn't blindly go this roach baneling drop tech route. To be honest, roach baneling is only good versus a protoss who goes straight colossi. You're better off with other choices if he opens voidray, phenoix, immortals archons, or blink stalkers. For your situation, just mass roach, nothing but roach and macro. Have hydra or corruptor tech, but honestly you don't even have to get the actual versus so few phenoix. You also make 4 spores in your natural for some reason and 3 in your main... You have 3 evo chambers for some reason as well.... In conclusion: - Poor macro decisions which left you behind in economy
- Blindly choosing a tech
- Not having enough roaches to deny his 3rd because of the previous 2 reasons
All of this is gold. You made weird trades, expanded after doing an all in, and corruptors were not necessary. The amount of corruptors you did make was overkill; I understand getting corruptor tech for colossi, but for 6 phoenix you don't have to worry about it. Two corruptors max. 5 spines was overkill as well, if you didn't know whether it was blink or DTs, get roach tech and leave a couple lings outside his base. Poke up at 5-6 minutes to see if he has any stalkers. If he's going blink stalkers, he will ideally make 1 zealot and 2 sentries so you should have known it wasn't blink stalkers while you were scouting because he didn't have any stalkers.
In my opinion, you could have expanded more aggressively because you shut down the DTs. Once you saw the archons, you just needed to get a spire and a hydralisk den in case of tech switches and you could win with pure roach and macro against that composition. You weren't spending your gas very well, so you could have gotten more upgrades or infestor tech. Infestors do well against that composition because zealots and archons can't do damage to roaches if they can't move. It gets trickier once he gets all those stalkers and immortals, but it shouldn't have gotten that far tbh. There are various ways to deal with that composition, but I think the game was already lost by the time the push moved out.
On November 13 2011 15:26 Belial88 wrote:
He had 3 gateways. If he had done a gateway all-in or dt/gateway or archon/gateway all-in, I would've died. I had zero units, and didn't plan to make any. I don't think the spines were bad considering how I followed up, but I don't want to reject your advice. That's just how I see it, and I think making spines wasn't a bad decision. If it was just 2 gateways or a single gateway, I would not have made so many.
I was also a little worried he would transition into blink, since he didn't put the DT shrine down when I was in his base. A 3 gate blink all-in would've killed me, so I made lots of spines. It wasn't immediately clear what he was doing, and he could've been doing either of those based on what I scouted.
3 gate expand means less units overall. If you put down a spore and a spine and made a few roaches then you would have been able to produce enough roaches and lings in response to a 3 gate pressure expand.
On November 13 2011 15:26 Belial88 wrote:
Can't take a third without overseer against DTs. I saw the Dts and so stuck to 2 base. I got my third quite quickly as fast as I could. I may have tried to pressure first.
There are various ways to react to 1 base DTs and getting a lair on 2 base for overseers is one reaction, but not the best one. I would have recommended just trying to expand and cancelling it if you can't hold it. 1 base DT tech puts Protoss far behind, so you wouldn't have to worry about his army at all. If your third comes under fire on that map, you are able to move a spore crawler over on the creep to cover the entrance to the third. That map makes it super easy to take a third if you've already secured your second.
On November 13 2011 15:26 Belial88 wrote:
I didn't blindly go roach/baneling drop. My composition of choice in a ZvP where it's even bases (ie not fast third vs ffe) is ling/baneling rain. I went with roaches instead due to archons.
So you think the drop tech wasn't worth it? I should just mass pure roach next time? I went with speedbanes once I saw no sentries.
If you have a chance to scout archons, then don't bother with the baneling nest and use your lings to try to deny a third and threaten backstabs. You might have already been committed in this game though. In this case, I would have forgone the drops (especially because of phoenix) and just tried to expand more. I personally don't think speedbanes are useful against protoss because banelings are only really useful against P when they're dropped. You were able to get a lot of the zealots with the blings, but roaches would have done that too. Save the gas for more roaches, upgrades and infestors.
On November 13 2011 15:26 Belial88 wrote:
4 spores because of the phoenixes, 3 evo chambers for upgrades. I thought 3 evo would be good with what I was doing.
2 spores per location max against phoenixes, but you can probably get away with one right in your mineral line. I'm less concerned about the 3 evo chamber thing, you weren't using them though. You had staggered upgrades and didn't advance to hive quickly enough to bother with 3 evo. I don't think anyone does 3 evo, and it's for good reasons but if it's your style that's fine. I think the lings were immediately useless when you say zealot/archon so don't bother with melee upgrades.
On November 13 2011 15:26 Belial88 wrote:
I think i was quite ahead in econ, no? I don't think my macro decision were poor, he had Dts, can't take a third without spores. I didn't blindly choose tech, ling/bane is what I consider standard, and I went with roaches as a reaction to what he was doing.
So next time I see archons like this, just go pure roach, eventually infestors?
No you weren't ahead in econ. You let him crush your economy because you were afraid of his DT harass which you had already prepared for. As soon as you saw the DTs, expand. He took his natural right then and then took his third about 20 seconds after you did while you were on even harvesters, which is not a position you want to be in as zerg. He took his fourth much before you did and he had more harvester than you for most of the game. You had spores before the DTs came, so expand.
If ling/bling is your standard, then you need to think what DT tech means to your style. It means that he's invested in tier 3 which failed and is now only good for archons or transitioning into tier 2. It also means no sentries because of the gas cost of DTs. I would probably just go roach as soon as you see 1 base twilight because roaches help against blink stalkers as well. If you don't react quickly enough, then just put down the roach warren and ignore the baneling tech because they don't do well if they're not dropped and archons can handle them either way.
So next time you see DTs, put down a roach warren. Next time you see a style like his, you can make your 4 base game plan to tech up to infestors. In this game in particular, if you had made a lot of roaches and gotten tunneling claws you could have won instantly because he didn't have detection until after you revealed burrowed. The robo finishes after 15 minutes and he didn't make cannons.
On November 13 2011 15:26 Belial88 wrote:
Watch the game then. Archons much easier to get out then broodlords or infestors. It's not like he pushed when he was maxed, I reckon he was around 140.
Right, but you threw away a couple armies before then as well. You definitely had enough gas for infestors, watch the game again because you took all your gases on 2 base (before the DTs came) which is probably overkill for your style. You could have easily afforded infestors around the 11 minute mark, at the 14 minute mark you float a lot of gas and you would have had more gas if you didn't make corruptors (if you decided on infestor tech). You don't need a whole bunch more gas to get broodlords considering you made about 20 corruptors this game.
The push that won the game was over 180 supply and had 11 archons in it. In that push, the archons alone cost 2750 gas which is more than enough to complete the tech to broods. You engaged while you were both maxed, which is rough for zerg. The engage happened at your bases, you only had 42 roaches and everything else died instantly (ignore corruptors and phoenix because they don't matter) to 11 archons, 4 immortals and 10 stalkers. I don't think this is a fault of your composition at this point as much as it was that you lost this game by not expanding and picking poor engagements.
On November 13 2011 15:26 Belial88 wrote:
Hm okay. I thought infestors wouldn't have cut it against the phoenix and would take too much gas. But okay, I see how I made too many corruptors. I just won't make corruptors next time.
Yeah, it's tricky. You have to fungal the phoenix before they engage otherwise you don't get spells. Your best bet would have been to catch them on the map so you could take them out separate of the army.
On November 13 2011 15:26 Belial88 wrote:Show nested quote +
Don't lie about your skill level, 1k masters this season is essentially GM level.
Thanks for the insightful post. I'll be sure to edit the OP to please you. I was 1k masters last season.
Aw, that guy sucks. You'll always be a 1k masters in my heart ♥
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While everyone will tell you that you had poor macro and couldn't deny his third, the problem of late game against toss is always difficult to answer if you let it get there. The only thing I've seen work against mass archon is mass neural parasite with BL support. Generally BL/Infestor is the safest composition than can handle most other unit compositions, which is why it's often the end game goal for zerg.
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On November 13 2011 16:52 oOOoOphidian wrote:
While everyone will tell you that you had poor macro and couldn't deny his third, the problem of late game against toss is always difficult to answer if you let it get there. The only thing I've seen work against mass archon is mass neural parasite with BL support. Generally BL/Infestor is the safest composition than can handle most other unit compositions, which is why it's often the end game goal for zerg.
This post is completely irrelevant to the subject at hand.
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How to beat mass archon? Mass hydra beats mass archon.
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Monk's post is very informative and very accurate.
I don't know if maybe you're looking for a more specific answer in regards to EXACTLY what units you could have made in your exact game without changing your macro choices, but;
against protoss, sometimes the problem really is just being enough ahead in macro to power through a more cost-efficient army than yours with greater numbers.
or
going for busts at a time when you KNOW protoss will not be able to handle it.
It really is how the matchup has evolved, and holds true all the way up till the very lategame where zerg gets a very gas-heavy army.
There is a chance you couldn't have made any composition to deal with what your opponent did without changing some of your macro/strategic choices such as the three evolution chambers, extra spores and spines, etc.
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You scout 3 gateways, 3 zealots, delayed warp gate tech, no gas units, and a twilight. What you should have done there is tried to figure out his build. Scout his natural and see if he's taken a natural. A zealot/archon allin requires 4-5 gates. A blink allin requires some amount of stalkers. A standard dt expand from protoss includes 3 gates. From this information, once you scout his expansion, you can definitively conclude that he's dt expanding. Make just 1-2 spores and 1 spine and immediately tech to lair while making a handful of lings. That's all you need, not 5 spines. Your lair was extremely late and thus your overseers were late to take a third.
I stole his gas.
You say you reacted to his tech by going roach baneling drop instead of ling baneling drop. But why go baneling anyways?
When I take a fast third in ZvP vs FFE (or whatever shenanigans happen in early game or the map lets me take fast third vs 1 gate expand) I go ling/roach late lair into mutas. But mutas suck on 2 base. Whatever.
So what I do when it's more a close economic game, is go ling/banelingrain. It's just what I think is the better composition. I generally transition into ling/banelingrain/infestor and i will make the last 50 supply roaches due to aoe becoming too great (critical mass colossi, storm). I think it's just how to play zvp, and it's worked well for me and it seems to work for the pros who do it.
It's for damage. Much like fungal growth. The difference is that baneling rain is a little stronger than FG, and that it better handles colossi and deathballs, and it also works well against zealots and HT. The tradeoff is that FG is worse against HT (fb) whereas baneling rain is immune to storm/fb and owns ht, but FG is more versatile and handles air units and roots. I prefer relying on banelingrain and using FG in small numbers for root later on.
You make 9 spores in total on 3 base vs 4 phoenix. I'd consider that a huge overreaction.
Hm. Okay. I think you are right. I had no idea he had phoenix and suddenly I saw about 6, I think I did overreact.
You should pretty much never have 3 evos. That kind of play is very unfocused, which is exactly how I would describe your play. You get a little bit of everything but not enough of anything to force things from your opponent.
yea.... i agree. I thought i was very far ahead, and I almost felt like the guy was wasting my time. Then I was getting a little agitated that he started to have a chance. Then I got kind of confused
If you ask any good player, they'll tell you the exact same things I did.
Overreacted to phoenix, should not have made corruptors, should have made roach/infestor instead of banelingrain to deal with archon based compositions... spire was really stupid, evo chamber and 9 spores was goofy. Got it.
I usually go very, very late lair even when going 2 base (i prefer full saturation) but I think when I'm 'ahead' in a game, like this one, I shoud've gotten it faster, especially against DTs. Okay.
3 gate expand means less units overall. If you put down a spore and a spine and made a few roaches then you would have been able to produce enough roaches and lings in response to a 3 gate pressure expand.
I prefer to rely solely on spines and make zero units, like I did in this game, than to make roaches or lings to defend early game pressure. I think spines are much more cost efficient, and you can't be aggressive with zerg anyways because of lack of speed on roaches, ff, wall-ins, etc.
Its not like I made both lings and spines. I just made spines. I don't think 5 spines was an overreaction, I stole his gas so what he made out of the gateway was unreliable to me. He also made a stalker next, so to me it looked like it was a possible blink all-in.
How to beat mass archon? Mass hydra beats mass archon.
No it doesn't... Please watch the replay at least. Why are you posting on a replay you haven't watched with a suggestion you've never even seen in action? I know you haven't seen in action, otherwise you wouldn't say something so silly and wrong.
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No it doesn't... Please watch the replay at least. Why are you posting on a replay you haven't watched with a suggestion you've never even seen in action? I know you haven't seen in action, otherwise you wouldn't say something so silly and wrong.
i watched the replay, why exactly my suggestion was bad? How do you know i didn't watch the replay? You didn't make a single hydra in the game and say it won't work.. Mass hydra would be best vs. that mix, add banelings if he is adding zealots and you are ready.
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United States8476 Posts
Show nested quote +You scout 3 gateways, 3 zealots, delayed warp gate tech, no gas units, and a twilight. What you should have done there is tried to figure out his build. Scout his natural and see if he's taken a natural. A zealot/archon allin requires 4-5 gates. A blink allin requires some amount of stalkers. A standard dt expand from protoss includes 3 gates. From this information, once you scout his expansion, you can definitively conclude that he's dt expanding. Make just 1-2 spores and 1 spine and immediately tech to lair while making a handful of lings. That's all you need, not 5 spines. Your lair was extremely late and thus your overseers were late to take a third. I stole his gas.
So? You can still rule out blink allin by scouting his expo.
Show nested quote +You say you reacted to his tech by going roach baneling drop instead of ling baneling drop. But why go baneling anyways? When I take a fast third in ZvP vs FFE (or whatever shenanigans happen in early game or the map lets me take fast third vs 1 gate expand) I go ling/roach late lair into mutas. But mutas suck on 2 base. Whatever. So what I do when it's more a close economic game, is go ling/banelingrain. It's just what I think is the better composition. I generally transition into ling/banelingrain/infestor and i will make the last 50 supply roaches due to aoe becoming too great (critical mass colossi, storm). I think it's just how to play zvp, and it's worked well for me and it seems to work for the pros who do it. It's for damage. Much like fungal growth. The difference is that baneling rain is a little stronger than FG, and that it better handles colossi and deathballs, and it also works well against zealots and HT. The tradeoff is that FG is worse against HT (fb) whereas baneling rain is immune to storm/fb and owns ht, but FG is more versatile and handles air units and roots. I prefer relying on banelingrain and using FG in small numbers for root later on.
I was asking why you got banelings in this game, not in general. My point was that mass roach would have been much better than roach baneling here.
Show nested quote +3 gate expand means less units overall. If you put down a spore and a spine and made a few roaches then you would have been able to produce enough roaches and lings in response to a 3 gate pressure expand. I prefer to rely solely on spines and make zero units, like I did in this game, than to make roaches or lings to defend early game pressure. I think spines are much more cost efficient, and you can't be aggressive with zerg anyways because of lack of speed on roaches, ff, wall-ins, etc. Its not like I made both lings and spines. I just made spines. I don't think 5 spines was an overreaction, I stole his gas so what he made out of the gateway was unreliable to me. He also made a stalker next, so to me it looked like it was a possible blink all-in.
I would highly suggest rethinking this. Lings allow you to get map control and threaten counter attacks. On the other hand, spines have no attacking potential later in the game. If a toss scouts so many spines, he can afford to play a lot more greedy than he normally would. I'll leave you with the thought that no high level zerg masses spines early game except when they're going 2 base muta.
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I have a hard time believing you were even 1k masters last season after watching that... (though to be fair, 1k masters last season is pretty close to diamond, considered low-mid masters, closer to the low end)
You really have no clue what you're doing. The loss had virtually nothing to do with the archons. You just massed spores and spines on two base while going "mass" roach (I use the word super liberally) and some banelings.
Your macro and decision making is terrible, you should really always be making units instead of spines unless (as mentioned by Monk) you're going two-base muta, because if you have no units your opponent can go for a third base relatively safely (scouts front and the ridic number of static D). Even if he had decided to all-in for whatever reason, you would not be ahead of him because you wasted so much resources just placing these spines, and didn't grab a third base (which of course you can't defend because you invested in spines instead of roaches/lings)
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OP did u watch the replay?!?!?!? U say u were way ahead on eco?!?!?!?! its funny how u probably got to masters just by holding bad players all ins and dont know what ur talking about. Also if ur view of ahead on economy is being even or slightly behind in 3rd and 4th bases and behind on workers most of the game, then there is something wrong with ur brain....... Also with that said NRGmonk is 100% correct now plz go l2P before arguing with a pro
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Asking for advice, then spitting on people who gave them ....
Oh i see what you wanna read :
"Bro, i don't understand aswell, i watched the replay. You were so far ahead, i think mass archon is just OP and u couldn't do anything else. Protoos imba QQ"
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First of i want to say, losing to diamond is pretty bad, if you are good player, you should beat diamond with whatever unit, because your mechanics and decision making are superior. Second you ask retarded question of how to beat mass archons? wth lol you are a, im not even zerg and to beat mass archon zealot you mass roaches and go attack him.
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Use mass muta with magic box to beat archons :D
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On November 13 2011 19:11 Belial88 wrote:I prefer to rely solely on spines and make zero units, like I did in this game, than to make roaches or lings to defend early game pressure. I think spines are much more cost efficient, and you can't be aggressive with zerg anyways because of lack of speed on roaches, ff, wall-ins, etc. Its not like I made both lings and spines. I just made spines. I don't think 5 spines was an overreaction, I stole his gas so what he made out of the gateway was unreliable to me. He also made a stalker next, so to me it looked like it was a possible blink all-in. No it doesn't... Please watch the replay at least. Why are you posting on a replay you haven't watched with a suggestion you've never even seen in action? I know you haven't seen in action, otherwise you wouldn't say something so silly and wrong.
Lol dude, you cannot rely solely on spines and make zero units. I don't know how in the hell you think you can advance in masters that way. How can you poke and scout expos? How would you scout things like whether he's upgrading with his Forge or not off of FFE, or whether he's doing zealot pressure off FFE if you aren't poking with lings?
How would you expect to scout whether he was doing Blink all in or DTs if you're not poking with lings to see when he pushes out/expos? Blink all in has no expo, DT expand does. If you had been poking well enough with lings instead of making 750 mins worth of spines, you would have known exactly what he was doing.
You speak with an arrogance that comes off like you think you know what you're doing, but you don't. 5 spines was an overreaction, are you kidding me? You see players cutting corners to try to put down as little static defense as possible, and save minerals wherever they can, and you think putting down 750 mins in static defense that did almost nothing doesn't put you behind? DT expand is a low econ version of 3 gate expo, it's actually so low econ that it's almost all in because Toss delays so much tech by doing it that they're almost forced to go Blink or Templar Tech, and if you deny the DTs (which any good Zerg should) then you can just mass roach in the midgame and a-move to victory.
Who in the world told you you can't be aggressive with early game Zerg? Roach/Ling all in isn't only good against FFE, it also has uses against DT expand after you stop the DTs, because they have drastically less sentries. Roach/Ling PRESSURE after a failed DT expand can do a TON of damage, even if they have 1 or 2 DTs hacking at you.
Mass hydra (lol) can beat mass archon in your scenario because the guy you played barely made zealots. If you knew even a little of what you were doing and had good macro you could have massed hydras and won lmao.
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To counter Archon/Zealot/Phoenix or just mass archon, all you need is mass roach with burrow & speed, throw in double evo for the extra upgrades and then just take as many bases as you can and keep throwing roaches at him
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Spines are pretty awful defensively, if you are gonna make no units to supplement them.
If your opponent does a gateway allin, sees the spines and retreats and takes a third, is he monumentally behind? No, he is ahead. If you have no tech or econ of your own to hide behind with spines, you cannot punish him for delaying his tech and economy.
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Mass Roach with proper spreading should be cost effective vs mass archon. Just make sure that you spread your roaches out as good as possible.
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I think you've got the mass archon thing figured out by now, but I don't think you understand that zerg play is generally reactive. Most people use roaches because roaches are effective against more protoss compositions. Bane rain is effective against mass gateway and colossus deathballs for sure, but in this instance you should have gone roaches. I'm not going to break down every response in this matchup, but suffice to say you should not have it in your head before the game starts that you're going to have baneling drops on 2 bases or whatever. You should try to think of each composition or building placed as a reaction to something you scout.
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So? You can still rule out blink allin by scouting his expo.
Right, but you were saying i should be able to tell he wasn't going blink stalkers by no stalkers with his first 2 units, and then his third unit was a stalker anyways. I saw the expo and took it as a chance to get lair.
I was asking why you got banelings in this game, not in general. My point was that mass roach would have been much better than roach baneling here.
For the zealots. I already had baneling tech since I was going ling/bane. I didn't necessarily make more banes, I just made the lings into banes and didnt make many more lings.
I would highly suggest rethinking this. Lings allow you to get map control and threaten counter attacks. On the other hand, spines have no attacking potential later in the game. If a toss scouts so many spines, he can afford to play a lot more greedy than he normally would. I'll leave you with the thought that no high level zerg masses spines early game except when they're going 2 base muta.
Perhaps I overreacted with the spines, then. I don't know if I agree, as a sentry and wall-in on many maps just denies any counterattack possibility.
As for no high level zerg masses spines, I think it's just I overreacted. But high level zergs definitely do rely on spines instead of units for defense. I didn't make any units, the commitment of spines I made was about a handful of roaches, which can't do anything before roach speed anyways.
You really have no clue what you're doing. The loss had virtually nothing to do with the archons. You just massed spores and spines on two base while going "mass" roach (I use the word super liberally) and some banelings.
I think my biggest mistake that game was trying to be aggressive. You call it my '2 base mass roach all-in', I was just trying to deny his third that he defended with zealots and like 3-4 archons.
I think I should know better that zerg aggression before 75 drones is just horrible. I think that aggression just completely set me back.
I already said I think I overreacted with the spores. I had banes already, it's not like I added them. They had use against zealots so they weren't useless.
Lol dude, you cannot rely solely on spines and make zero units. I don't know how in the hell you think you can advance in masters that way. How can you poke and scout expos? How would you scout things like whether he's upgrading with his Forge or not off of FFE, or whether he's doing zealot pressure off FFE if you aren't poking with lings?
I make 2-4 lings for scouting purposes in the early game, and use overlord and drone scouting. I'm saying I don't make any units for defensive purposes, and rely on spines for defense instead of units. I get speed if it's a 1 base opening, like in this game, so if necessary I can get speedlings. Maybe you should watch the replay, your long post isn't helpful.
If your opponent does a gateway allin, sees the spines and retreats and takes a third, is he monumentally behind? No, he is ahead. If you have no tech or econ of your own to hide behind with spines, you cannot punish him for delaying his tech and economy.
I disagree, and I'll be happy to be proven wrong.
3 spines, or roughly 450 minerals, is necessary to stop, say, 3 gate sentry pressure without units. For roughly 450 minerals, you can only get 4 roaches (and ignore the roach warren that you have to make super early with which you can't do any aggression with until roach speed anyways) and, most critically imo, you need to have a gas geyser running. 4 roaches will not come near to stopping 3 gate sentry pressure on their own, but 3 spines will stop it cold, as well as prevent any sort of ramp blocks or forcefield shenanigans.
I prefer to run on higher mineral income for longer, not have to mine gas, and make pure drones and get a later lair. I think in this game I made a mistake in not getting lair sooner against a DT expand though.
Anyways, my point is that spines are preferable to units in the early game. I don't think making a roach warren before 50 supply is worth it in ZvP, unless you are doing an all-in.
I think the big mistake was making too many spines, but what I scouted was either DTs or blink all-in, and I didn't think overreacting to spines would have been a problem. I figured I was so ahead by that point, I could've made 10 spines and had been fine.
To counter Archon/Zealot/Phoenix or just mass archon, all you need is mass roach with burrow & speed, throw in double evo for the extra upgrades and then just take as many bases as you can and keep throwing roaches at him
It would be helpful if you watched the replay...
but, I do have a response to this. If this is what you recommend, do you think I should mass 2 base roach to deny his third, or do you think I should go pure econ first to 75 drones on 3 base before I turn on the aggression, even if it means he gets to take his third?
I think that was a big part of the problem in this game, that I went 2 base aggression to deny his fast third and he pretty much barely held off my attack with warp ins, reinforcement, defenders advantage, etc, but it was enough to, imo, put him ahead.
Mass Roach with proper spreading should be cost effective vs mass archon. Just make sure that you spread your roaches out as good as possible.
I think mass roach with spread beats archon/zealot. This guy didn't go archon/zealot, it was just pure archons. Please watch the replay, I don't think there's much spreading you can do against mass archons. A mass archon ball is much bigger in size than a roach army, he's the one that's having the surround.
but suffice to say you should not have it in your head before the game starts that you're going to have baneling drops on 2 bases or whatever. You should try to think of each composition or building placed as a reaction to something you scout.
So instead, I should have it in my head that I'm going roach/hydra?
I disagree. I think ling/banelingrain is the 'staple' composition in ZvP, and based on what I scout and react to, I go in different directions (more roaches for storm, more rain for gateway, more infestors for air, more corruptors for heavy colossi, etc).
I think next time I see archon based compositions though, I'll go for infestors before banelings, and go roach/infestor. I think that's one composition where roach/infestor would've been beter, and I think my overcommitment to corruptors and baneling rain/speed delayed infestors. I think I overcommitted to spines and spores (perhaps arrogance in thinking I was farther ahead than I was), and I think trying to delay his third was stupid when I didn't have my own third.
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Mass archons is a lot of gas... There's no way he could've done that really quickly. Just get a roach army and kill him before he gets there. If he does get to a critical amount, just trade armies. He won't be able to remax as easily as stalker/zealot/colossus.
Also, expand everywhere.
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Honestly Belial, most of your 'help' threads seem to simply be excuses to whine about Protoss being imbalanced.
In any case, I have absolutely no idea what to make of the replay. Nothing you did makes any sense to me. Why did you build 5 billion spines and spore crawlers to defend what amounted to 2 DTs and 5 or 6 phoenixes? Why did you get three evo chambers? Why did you expand at the 11:30-12 minute mark? Why did you put banelings on the watch-towers? Why did you inexplicably send 10+ overlords to the expo above his base to start spewing creep? Why did you go roach/baneling against what was effectively phoenix/archon and why did you suicide your initial force into his third? (and then why did you suicide your second army in exactly the same way?)
None of your decisions in the game make any logical sense whatsoever. It wasn't even the archons which killed you, it was the fact that you put yourself behind in economy because of your static defence spamming and incredibly late expo, the fact that your army composition was really weird and ineffective, and the fact that both of your major engagements were God-awful.
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On November 14 2011 08:22 Belial88 wrote:
For the zealots. I already had baneling tech since I was going ling/bane. I didn't necessarily make more banes, I just made the lings into banes and didnt make many more lings.
So you know, roaches are more efficient against zealots than banelings are both in gas and larva cost. I'm not sure what you saw to prompt a baneling nest, but I rewatched the reply and you knew he had DTs and 3 zealots and a phoenix before your baneling nest finished. I think you should have cancelled it and focused on making roaches. Lings are good for things other than morphing into banelings.
On November 14 2011 08:22 Belial88 wrote:
I make 2-4 lings for scouting purposes in the early game, and use overlord and drone scouting. I'm saying I don't make any units for defensive purposes, and rely on spines for defense instead of units. I get speed if it's a 1 base opening, like in this game, so if necessary I can get speedlings. Maybe you should watch the replay, your long post isn't helpful.
Spines let you hold big gateway attacks if they come, but it didn't. If those spines had been lings you would have been able to delay the expand while securing your third. I think the only debate you could be having is whether it was worth it to place your second spine, but spines 3, 4 and 5 were bad. One spine is 6 lings and I think you would fare better with 1 spine, producing roaches while the attack moves out, and reinforce with lings. It's hard to make spines while the attack is coming, but it's easy to make units while an attack's coming. I think you should try to figure out what the minimum amount of spines you need to hold an attack that you reinforce.
On November 14 2011 08:22 Belial88 wrote:
I disagree, and I'll be happy to be proven wrong.
3 spines, or roughly 450 minerals, is necessary to stop, say, 3 gate sentry pressure without units. For roughly 450 minerals, you can only get 4 roaches (and ignore the roach warren that you have to make super early with which you can't do any aggression with until roach speed anyways) and, most critically imo, you need to have a gas geyser running. 4 roaches will not come near to stopping 3 gate sentry pressure on their own, but 3 spines will stop it cold, as well as prevent any sort of ramp blocks or forcefield shenanigans.
I prefer to run on higher mineral income for longer, not have to mine gas, and make pure drones and get a later lair. I think in this game I made a mistake in not getting lair sooner against a DT expand though.
Anyways, my point is that spines are preferable to units in the early game. I don't think making a roach warren before 50 supply is worth it in ZvP, unless you are doing an all-in.
I think the big mistake was making too many spines, but what I scouted was either DTs or blink all-in, and I didn't think overreacting to spines would have been a problem. I figured I was so ahead by that point, I could've made 10 spines and had been fine.
I don't disagree with the 3 spine bit, but I think it is more effective to put down 1 spine and a roach warren then make roaches if an attack comes. If you made a 12-16 lings you could have easily delayed the opponent's expansion. If you make spines only, then your opponent can easily take his bases (in this game it was two bases). You have more economy with this route because your spines are drones and your units are delaying the opponent's economy or haven't been built yet. Instead of spending money on those spines in this game, you could have spent it on lings and drones, or lings and roaches if the attack came. Either way you'd be ahead but you can't make that decision with your style.
On November 14 2011 08:22 Belial88 wrote:
I think mass roach with spread beats archon/zealot. This guy didn't go archon/zealot, it was just pure archons. Please watch the replay, I don't think there's much spreading you can do against mass archons. A mass archon ball is much bigger in size than a roach army, he's the one that's having the surround.
Roaches are effective against archons and they are effective against zealots. I think your issue was macro and roaches are easy to macro. If you had engaged at your opponent's natural then you could have kited the zealots and archons on three bases. Run a custom game and practice using roaches against archons - they do pretty well.
On November 14 2011 08:22 Belial88 wrote:
So instead, I should have it in my head that I'm going roach/hydra?
I disagree. I think ling/banelingrain is the 'staple' composition in ZvP, and based on what I scout and react to, I go in different directions (more roaches for storm, more rain for gateway, more infestors for air, more corruptors for heavy colossi, etc).
That's not what I said. I said you shouldn't have it in your head that you are going bane rain on 2 bases and should play more reactively. What I meant by this is that if you know what your composition is going to be before you get into the game, then you are limiting yourself. There is no 'staple' composition in ZvP because Protoss can throw a lot of different things against you. If you can't get out of this mindset, then your 'staple' composition is drones, overlords and lings for scouting and backstabbing.
What you scouted was DTs and imo bane rain is less effective against DTs than roaches are. I think any good player will tell you that putting down that baneling nest based on what you scouted was a bad idea. I think bane rain is good against massive gateway compositions or gateway/colossi compositions. There is a way to play your style, but based on what you scouted I think you made a bad decision. A roach warren only costs minerals so it's not a bad building to have down in case of emergency on this map. I just think you're really hung up on this Morrow style because it was on a Day[9] and you're not thinking very clearly about when it is and isn't effective.
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Complaining about the good advice your given won't make your bad play any more viable...
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On November 13 2011 14:48 Aterons_toss wrote:
First thing first how the fuck do you get 1k master and still play diamonds o.o !?
Now ot, mass archon seems like kind of a bitch if you let him get it so lets talk not letting him get it.
First thing firs archons have freaking 3 range that means you can go for a hydra bust with ovys creeping and kill his forge and w.e without him being able to really do anything and then you can be annoying with the hydras and try to kite the archons in sort of a "nanan 3 more range then you" fashino ( pretty much how a T would kite your ling with a reaper ).
oky now vs the actual mass archon... gues what ? archons have 3 range gues what has 9 range ? fungual ? gues what the patch blizzard released recently did... not removing fungual stunt. You get the idea, and yeah it is tiring to kill 40 archons with 20 infestors and support roaches but it works
You can also go fast blords + infestor and then they are really in deep shit or even broodlords roach if you can't afford infestor other then that 200/200 roach and enough larva to remax can also work if you kite well enough or hydra with good enough kiteing.
Alas it is only theory since i have never ever been in a situation to play mass archon or to play vs it but thats what sound most reasonable to me to deal with them.
He played against a diamond because the diamond was most likely a smurf and on a crazy win streak before getting promoted.
Best way to deal with mass archon is to get as many bases as you can (archons are really bad at counter attacks ^^) and trade archons for roaches. Basically if you deny his 3rd or at least deny his 4th and take 5 bases yourself you should be able to throw away units.
Of course the fact that he went DT archons means he has more minerals to go towards expansions which I find odd why he didn't have more zealots.
DTs are also really easy to deal with when you have a lead, my high master protoss friend told me that the best way when you get 3 base and they have only 2 base and they have DT, is to make a handful of spines and 2 spores at each base. This basically denies him any passage into your expansions (thus the idea of DTs). Once on 3 fully saturated bases, keep amassing roaches and slowly tech to broodlords. Even if he has pheonix you should be able to get a slew of broodlords out and beat the protoss (no pesky blink stalker run bys).
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My advice is that you don't make a help thread without first thinking about what you could have done. Come to the thread with some ideas, don't straight ask for help. You clearly started this thread in a tilting mood with the way you shot down suggestions from monk, someone who has a lot of experience with replay analysis, which show's that you're not ready to approach the game with the right attitude.
Keep in mind this is a strategy game, so there's not always a right and wrong way to do things. You can justify your compositions and choices, but if you choose to believe that you're making the right decisions (no warren before 50, more spines for defense) then you should be prepared to acknowledge that people may not be able to help you in the way you want. For a highly exaggerated point, if I play a marine/hellion/raven tvz and am having trouble with mass roach, the natural response is to make tanks, but if i insist that marine/hellion/raven is a viable strategy, I'll have to find my own way around it.
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Now, this is the type of thread that we don't need more of.
Ask for advice -> Gets good Advice -> Denies
Listen to the better player, play better, macro better, make better decision instead of denying about how bad you played -_-
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Honestly Belial, most of your 'help' threads seem to simply be excuses to whine about Protoss being imbalanced.
Not really... I have a question about something I've never seen before, that is all.
So you know, roaches are more efficient against zealots than banelings are both in gas and larva cost. I'm not sure what you saw to prompt a baneling nest, but I rewatched the reply and you knew he had DTs and 3 zealots and a phoenix before your baneling nest finished. I think you should have cancelled it and focused on making roaches. Lings are good for things other than morphing into banelings.
That makes sense, I'll keep that in mind. I think banes are good in general against protoss, and so I figured they would be even better against a heavy zealot composition. They did do well, but I learn now that roaches would've done fine too, and handled the archons better.
I think you should try to figure out what the minimum amount of spines you need to hold an attack that you reinforce.
For zero units, 3 spines is needed for 3 gate pressure. I decided upon ~5 to deal with possible blink. I think I should've made the 3, and waited until I got concrete evidence of what he was doing to make more (and, if they are better still than units, as it would likely be late enough I'll have 50 drones anyways). I'll be conscious of this next time.
I don't disagree with the 3 spine bit, but I think it is more effective to put down 1 spine and a roach warren then make roaches if an attack comes. If you made a 12-16 lings you could have easily delayed the opponent's expansion. If you make spines only, then your opponent can easily take his bases (in this game it was two bases). You have more economy with this route because your spines are drones and your units are delaying the opponent's economy or haven't been built yet. Instead of spending money on those spines in this game, you could have spent it on lings and drones, or lings and roaches if the attack came. Either way you'd be ahead but you can't make that decision with your style.
Interesting.
Next time I think I'm ahead, like I did in this game, I'll resort to units instead of spines. Regardless of what's better, I'm so ahead right, why not? And I'll need to deny his third. My thinking was "im ahead, it doesn't matter how many spines I put to hold off his aggressive/all-in build". I think now on I'll change it to "I'm ahead, so I'll make units instead of spines"
Thanks, that's useful.
What I meant by this is that if you know what your composition is going to be before you get into the game, then you are limiting yourself. There is no 'staple' composition in ZvP because Protoss can throw a lot of different things against you. If you can't get out of this mindset, then your 'staple' composition is drones, overlords and lings for scouting and backstabbing.
Interesting. I think you are right.
I just think you're really hung up on this Morrow style because it was on a Day[9] and you're not thinking very clearly about when it is and isn't effective.
I didn't know it was on day9, I'll check it out. I haven't watched day9 in over a year, and I knew morrow started to like ling/bane around when I made a guide about it (shortly before infestor buff) and made it my own style. I didn't go banelingrain because I saw someone else do it, I did it because I saw problems with roach/hydra/corruptor in ZvP and I think hydras are never worth making besides for all-ins or in ZvZ in short distance, wide open maps like dual sight (i think only dual sight actually). This is all irrelevant though.
Complaining about the good advice your given won't make your bad play any more viable...
Did I complain about the advice? I had reasons for my play, and despite how terrible everyone thinks I am, I do everything for a reason and do quite well for myself. I explain the reasoning for my questionable moves, and respond to what people say. Thanks for the contribution though.
You clearly started this thread in a tilting mood with the way you shot down suggestions from monk, someone who has a lot of experience with replay analysis, which show's that you're not ready to approach the game with the right attitude.
I didn't shoot down his responses, I appreciate his input. Some of the things he said, like seeing if he had stalkers or not, wasn't clear in the game because I stole his gas, and his third unit was a stalker anyways. Maybe he didn't see that, or maybe I'm wrong and there's something I'm missing that he didn't make clear in his post. I wasn't in a tilted mood, I simply didn't understand what I ran across, and every decision I made had a reason for it.
I think some of the decisions I am being criticized for weren't necessarily wrong in and of themselves, I think I overreacted too many times in this game. I should have been actively upgrading, but 3 evo chambers was too much. I should've made pure drones and no units and relied solely on spines instead of units in the early game, but not in the mid-game, and not with so many spines. I should have scouted the stargates earlier (perhaps earlier overlord speed, I generally am very good about that), and even if I didn't, I should have made spores, just not so many. I could have made corruptors, as I did, but I should've made enough not to get my roaches all lifted up, not so many that I 1-shot all his phoenixes.
You can justify your compositions and choices, but if you choose to believe that you're making the right decisions (no warren before 50, more spines for defense) then you should be prepared to acknowledge that people may not be able to help you in the way you want.
Sure. I could always be doing things wrong, and am glad to focus my opinions/strategies/responses if they are questionable. Making spines instead of units may be controversial, but I was definitely wrong in my execution, and the responses I've gotten have made it clear to me even after I couldn't figure it out when I went over the replay again. While people may say I'm just wrong on the spines part, they have taught me that making spines isn't always the answer as I may have approached it.
I'm sorry if people who have watched the replay and offered advice feel shut down. That's not it at all. I appreciate the input, no matter the level of player or calibre of poster. I'm simply explaining my position, so that it may be more clear what I was trying to do in the game, and perhaps failed the execution of. I don't mean to be disrespectful at all. I'm well aware most people dislike me or think I'm a bad player, and I never said I was good.
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United Kingdom36161 Posts
Belial: please don't take this the wrong way, because you're obviously a good player, but from this and other threads I've seen, it appears you have some fundamental misunderstanding of how to play ZvP.
General themes across your help topics are that you overreact or react wrongly to what you see, or you simply try to implement a bad plan. Also it seems you almost always consider yourself to be much more ahead in your games than you actually are, especially economically. Your play has a general whiff of desperation, rather than solid macro play that Zerg excels at in this matchup.
I'm not saying this to randomly criticise, it just feels like you need to fundamentally rethink how you approach ZvP, and also you need to be able to make better reads on your own replays.
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I think the problem in this game was my overreactions, and that while I may have been ahead at certain times, there were better decision I could've made (ie instead of just putting down a bunch of spines because im ahead and it doesnt matter I waste the money, it would be better on units, instead of attacking to deny his third I should've taken my own third and teched up, etc).
I was also genuinely confused at the composition, and I should make roaches instead of banes to deal with zealots, and infestors asap to deal with archons.
I think my attack at this third was dumb too, and this will just further reinforce the idea you should never attack as zerg until you have 75 drones (barring obvious vulnerabilities or solid timing all-ins).
I think I was just really, unaware of how to deal with the composition I came across, and the level of play I did was poor in the game, but I was 'ahead' so it wasn't the biggest deal, but the problem was the wrong choices in 'im ahead anyways' kind of things. Like I should've made a super fast lair 'because im ahead anyways so it doesnt matter im cutting drones' instead of just purely droning like normal. I didn't take advantage of certain ... advantages, I suppose.
I think my approach to zvp is pretty good, I was just quite confused on this game when I came across something id never seen before.
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EPT
