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Russian Federation473 Posts
Hey guys,
I think absolute majority of us fellow Terrans from Bronze to GM have to go MMMVG in 99.99 % of the games we play against Protoss. And in most of the games that last long enough we have nothing to spend gas on - we build primarily marines and marauders, and if we don't lose too many medivacs, we have no real gas sink mechanics - ghosts and vikings are not really gas heavy (their m/g ratio is 2/1).
Are there any ideas what to spend all this gas on?
The only good idea are banshees imo. They are fast, have insane dps, and will be properly upgraded (+3 attack for sure).
Other possible option is just... mass Ghost! But you have to have 1000 APM to snipe all the zealots.
Then maybe tanks (behind Planetaries and/or bunkers) to protect expansions... but against all the bursting firepower of protoss and with low upgrades (tech switch can happen in the very late game) probably not a good idea.
Thors, Battlecruisers and Ravens are hard-countered by feedback, so not a good idea at all.
Do you have any examples of how Terrans found a way to spend overgas lategame? Or are we the race that just has to pull workers from geysers to minerals and press a-d-a-d-a-d-a-d-a-d-a-d-a-d-a-d-a-d-a freneticly?
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Thors actually eat quite a bit of damage, just remember to EMP them before fighting. But then again, immortal buff...
I think cruisers would be good as a LATE LATE LATE game switch with 3-3 and infantry support. Same thing, EMP them before fighting. And make sure there are still EMPs left for offense.
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Hmm. I would advise to upgrade your Vikings and build mainly marrauder/ghost/medivac. Marines get worse and worse the longer the game goes in my opinion. Many people say, that you need the DPS of your Marines, but they melt to everything Protoss have instantly. Marrauders have a lot more health and should be favored in the lategame in my opinion(Only Diamond Terran here). Marrauders/ghosts/vikings/medivacs + upgrades for your air and a lot of starports, should hold your gas down in the lategame depending on how agressive the match goes. If you both are turteling at 3 base, even if you are ar 200 food it´s normal to have a lot of ressources in the bank. You could also add thors and upgrades for them if you still have to many gas. They are good tanks (if you emp them) and deal a lot of damage.
I image a BC/Thor ghost/marrauder lategame composition. This should be awesome ^^
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On November 07 2011 04:41 leecx wrote:
Thors actually eat quite a bit of damage, just remember to EMP them before fighting. But then again, immortal buff...
I think cruisers would be good as a LATE LATE LATE game switch with 3-3 and infantry support. Same thing, EMP them before fighting. And make sure there are still EMPs left for offense.
It's the same as Brood War: Battlecruisers just aren't viable in TvP. Basic Protoss GtA tear them apart.
Beyond Ghosts for a gas dump, I'd probably say Ravens. EMPs with a couple PDDs thrown around to block Stalker fire at least seems ridiculous on paper. It takes a lot of micro though.
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nukes are awesome late game as well for a gas/min dump. Gives you back some harassment options too and makes the multitask more. Also small reaper packs can be great late game and they are great gas dumps. Also like tatari said possible ravens? get seeker missile? if it gets really really late game mass ravens is really good- obviously gotta watch out for feedback. Mass ghost marauder + support is amazing too cause ghosts are actually really good vs zealots, you just need a TON of them.
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Mech in TvP is very popular as helions, thors, raven, banshee and ghost compositions rip through protoss. I would say banshee harass and constant drops are the way to keep the protoss defending and confused. Although high templars do feedback everything, that's why you need to efficiently use your EMPs :/
A few BCs would help, but I haven't seen Terrans really use them against Protoss as of late so I'm not quite sure how well they would fare against a Protoss composition. You should really try to get all of the upgrades for all types of units overtime so that when you have to transition to hard counter a Protoss, you'll already have the upgrades. Getting a decent amount of OCs mid-late game is also helpful as you can quickly saturate a new base with mules.
Usually if a Terran goes MMMVG against a Protoss, the Protoss will eventually transition into archons. Therefore viking production can be cut and it can just be MMMG. If you're using PFs and etc to defend your bases, you should do the same by dropping/harassing your opponent's bases as well.
If you really want to spend your gas, thors, ravens and banshees wouldn't be a bad idea imo ^^
Nukes are great when used to limit Protoss movement, harass and defense. Defensive nukes can stop a Protoss from attacking, and if the Protoss is defending, you can just constantly nuke him to further drive him into a corner.
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Don't get it in the first place no ones forcing you to get the refineries. Minerals are much better.
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Russian Federation473 Posts
People what are you talking about? Seeker missile? Range of 6 on feedback's range of 9? What?
PDDs? Against Zealot/Archon/Colossus? 1-2 Ravens may be good to nullify the Stalkers, but Stalkers are usually not the problem by themselves.
BCs? No thank you. 35.5 dps for 400/300/6/90 and with 1.88 speed. Bad idea. Just remember the Boxer vs. HasuObs Game 1 in NASL Season 1, BCs were killed by pure storms (!)
Thors? No, not with feedback. You have to emp them, and to have enough EMPs for all the Protoss stuff. Too much effort and investment, and it's not worth it in the end.
Reapers? Could be good, but with 45 s build time not really (actually it looks like Blizzard initially planned that Reapers would be gas damp for Terran bio, and they had 30 s build time in beta, but then Blizzard decided to screw them...) Reapers don't even inflict much more dps on light targets than marines (16.36 compared to 10.5, and comparison with not-light targets is too heavily in Marines' favor).
The only good idea is to get nukes, it's gas heavy and can be very annoying. Compared to drops, nukes require much less supply and minerals, but take a lot of gas.
And banshees are good for late game raiding out of my experience as well, but we don't see them much in the best players' games.
Other than that, looks like the sarcastic Zergie is correct, we just have to rely on minerals and forget about that silly things called "Terran high tech".in TvP.
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Vikings if they are Collosus Heavy are pretty good.
User was warned for this post
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The two gas sinks I turn to the most are Thors and Reapers. Thors are just so good against every Protoss unit, even without upgrades. The only thing that dominates them is Immortals, which you should already have an answer for in the lategame. Templars only trade even with them, even if you let them fire off a full energy feedback.
I've been liking Reapers alot because they make sense from an economic flow standpoint. When you spike gas, you're short on minerals, which means you have idle Rax production ripe for the using. Reapers have a super low [mineral cost] / [build time] ratio, which makes them perfect for balancing your resources. They're also great lategame units in general because although they are expensive on resources they are very cheap on supply.
The only good answer Protoss has to them is Stalkers, which they can't warp in at the harass site if they're already at 200 supply. An 8 pack of Reapers shreds any number of Zealots, Cannons, and Templars. And if the P commits Robo/Stargate units to defend against the harass, the Reapers have already done their damage by depowering the deathball.
I've tried to make Ravens work really hard in TvP because I like the idea of keeping around a Starport with a tech lab in TvP just to force more Observers from the Protoss. But whenever I get more than 1 Raven the P sheds Stalkers and builds just a few Phoenix, making PDD useless. And autoturret harass is not as good in TvP as in TvZ due to P units+buildings having higher HP+shield regen.
Banshees are good in TvP, don't get me wrong, but they're not that great of a gas sink. They take a long time to build, so you need to build extra starports beforehand, and even then their mineral:gas cost ratio isn't the best.
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Depending on the map, I don't know if you're talking about Tal'darim Altar but BCs latelate game aren't that much of a bad idea considering the map is relatively tightly packed anyways. Ravens for harassment (turrets) and PDDs even against archons are great, in unison with EMPs of coourse.
Nukes are a great way to keep the Protoss at bay and in control. Thors are great damage sponges so with EMP, it'll be great against heavy collossus.
I think he's just asking what we can spend gas on as Terran, not necessarily on efficiency. But Thors can potentially assist against Zealots, archons/immortals/collossus (with strike cannon but who uses that nowadays). It's just basically enemy unit comp, your upgrades, map, and army placement/mobility.
Just get medivacs, vikings and upgrades. The mobility of MM and vikings are way too good, that's why it's the ideal choice.
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Russian Federation473 Posts
On November 07 2011 16:23 RoboBob wrote:
The two gas sinks I turn to the most are Thors and Reapers. Thors are just so good against every Protoss unit, even without upgrades. The only thing that dominates them is Immortals, which you should already have an answer for in the lategame.
I've been liking Reapers alot because they make sense from an economic flow standpoint. When you spike gas, you're short on minerals, which means you have idle Rax production ripe for the using. Reapers have a super low [mineral cost] / [build time] ratio, which makes them perfect for balancing your resources. They're also great lategame units in general because although they are expensive on resources they are very cheap on supply.
The only good answer Protoss has to them is Stalkers, which they can't warp in at the harass site if they're already at 200 supply. An 8 pack of Reapers shreds any number of Zealots, Cannons, and Templars. And if the P commits Robo/Stargate units to defend against the harass, the Reapers have already done their damage by depowering the deathball.
I've tried to make Ravens work really hard in TvP because I like the idea of keeping around a Starport with a tech lab in TvP just to force more Observers from the Protoss. But whenever I get more than 1 Raven the P sheds Stalkers and builds just a few Phoenix, making PDD useless. And autoturret harass is not as good in TvP as in TvZ due to P units+buildings having higher HP+shield regen.
Banshees are good in TvP, don't get me wrong, but they're not that great of a gas sink. They take a long time to build, so you need to build extra starports beforehand, and even then their mineral:gas cost ratio isn't the best.
can you please state you league and/or provide replays?
because your points don't sound credible to me.
thors? without armor upgrades, zealots kill them in just 20 hits, and all the other damage scales respectively. thors eat a ton of supply and minerals as well. Why would you build a 0-0 thor and not 3 3-3 marauders (or 6 marines)? Evne without medivacs, upgraded rauders will take more damage than unupgraded thors, not to speak of feedback, DPS and mobility.
reapers? no I don't have idle racks (unless I'm maxed out). Of course reapers are cheap in terms of supply, and they can pull some supply from the protoss army, but they are very fragile, and die to everything short of sentries and templars (and storm or forcefields can be devastating). even zealots and cannons will damage them and win enough time for warp-ins or reinforcements to come. Again, reapers could be good, but not with 45s build time imo. You can't afford to build 2 reapers instead of 3 marauders or 2 ghosts.
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I definitely think that you should just manage your gas income appropriately and not grab both geysers at every base by default. Especially be careful about gas timings early on (first 3 bases) too much gas hurts you a lot.
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Just mass upgrades and ghosts, the other options are very rarely worth the investment imo
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Russian Federation473 Posts
On November 07 2011 16:44 Atreides wrote:
I definitely think that you should just manage your gas income appropriately and not grab both geysers at every base by default. Especially be careful about gas timings early on (first 3 bases) too much gas hurts you a lot.
i had 50-min tvp yesterday where i didn't mine gas at all on my 5th and 6th bases, and effectively stopped mining gas on my 4th as i had to reposition it (geysers were at ~ 50 % mined out). i still struggled to get enough minerals and had a 4-digit gas surplus.
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well ravens would be a better choice imo.
turrets act as artificial forcefield, do well against zealots.
pdd can kill stalker shots.
seeker missile can just bomb the zealot mob home.
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Actually banshees work well vs colossi instead of vikings too, the problem is that banshees build slower and use more gas ratio than vikings. Banshees kill colossi faster but have smaller range. But they can attack ground and harass, too.
So perhaps with this extra gas, you could make up for having to get extra starports and for the banshee's 3:2 mineral gas ratio instead of the viking's 2:1. Or at least, if you decide to make banshees, there will be more reason to.
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Russian Federation473 Posts
@ElusoryX
problem with auto turrets is that they don't scale with upgrades, so they will deal silly 4-5 damage late game (and with guardian shield on, even 2-3 damage). Raven also has to get close to the location to drop turrets, and is very vulnerable to feedback. and you can't place turrets like forcefields, there have to be no enemy units where you place the turrets. PDD is super strong against stalkers, but stalkers are not a problem, zealots, colossi, templars and archons are. (if somebody doesn't know, archons ignore pdd). and seeker missiles are a very bad idea, first because of feedback, second because zealots with charge will close with your bio anyways, and explosions will hurt you more than they will hurt protoss (again, it's very unlikely that you will launch the missiles at all).
@Yoshi Kirishima
well banshees are strong, but they are vulnerable to storms and archons, so you have to be very careful.
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Nukes. Lots and lots of nukes.
If you're still floating a lot, that means you're mining too much gas - -
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how is this a problem? you say you need more minerals, try using mules.
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Basically the short answer would be that there is no good gas dump, ghosts are about as close as you're gonna get.
On some maps in some situations reapers have their utility vs toss in the late game, but that's usually once you've already got an advantage and just want some more intel/harass, and the numbers shouldn't be large enough to deplete a 3k gas bank...
Nukes are a nice option as well, but suffer from the same problem.
As far as people saying you're mining too much gas, usually you have the saturation to warrant getting the geysers, and you may have needed the extra gas income when you were having to rebuild medivacs and ghosts and vikings and upgrades and more production versus late game where you're basically just rebuilding a few bio units here and there that you lose during harassment or small trades, and the expensive (gas heavy) units tend to actually not be traded.
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Nukes. Use them. They're good. It costs nothing except attention span + multi-task to order 1 of your 10 late game ghosts to a location, shift click him out of your group, and holdfire + cloak and nuke harrass pylons/gateways/robos and nexus' as well.
Remember if you are going to drop a ghost somewhere, cloak it + hold fire it before you load it into the dropship and it will come out cloaked + on hold fire.
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TvP in general isn't really that gas heavy... assuming you've gotten all upgrades, I guess just don't get as many geysers as you expand. Just stay on four or so and add more as the old ones expire? I really don't know why Blizzard changed the ghost cost. 150 150 was a lot, but now I find myself not having enough minerals when I get ghosts more often than I don't have enough gas.
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Russian Federation473 Posts
On November 07 2011 18:54 theBOOCH wrote:
TvP in general isn't really that gas heavy... assuming you've gotten all upgrades, I guess just don't get as many geysers as you expand. Just stay on four or so and add more as the old ones expire? I really don't know why Blizzard changed the ghost cost. 150 150 was a lot, but now I find myself not having enough minerals when I get ghosts more often than I don't have enough gas.
yup that actually was a nerf for standard terran late game tvp.
a buff for some timings midgame and definitely a big buff for tvz. they probably also wanted to make ghosts work well with mech in tvp, but failed to succeed, mech remains a very rare strategy regardless.
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The correct answer is probably to just not mine gas you're not going to use, as has been stated by a number of people.
I'd like to see battlecruisers get a bit of use, but thats not happening unless you come into the game with a build that includes pumping air upgrades. There have already been a number of posts stating why you should not get into battlecruisers, but I'd like to look at the upside a bit. You can transition your viking infrastracture into a BC infastructure, and plan from the get-go to pump air upgrades. This would go well with a double-ups bio plan where you start pumping air attack as soon as you get your armory to unlock level 2 upgrades, this would happen prior to any scouting of colossus. Hopefully, such an emphasis on air upgrades will allow for two things: 1.) easier "front end" damaging of colossus, bringing them down before they can burn your bio to shreds and 2.) less risk of over committing into vikings as you're making more upgrades and numerically less vikings, as an added bonus they do a little more damage on the ground so if you've got some left over do a pseudo drop into a mineral line, vikings may blow against units that fight back, but the practically run through workers, as an added bonus with some good drop micro you could actually box in a mineral line as vikings are fairly wide, forcing your opponent to mineral walk as his only means out.
From here, move out those starports onto new tech labs and build more rax on their reactors. upgraded BCs will have an edge on protoss because it is so inefficient for protoss to upgrade shields, BCs will always be able to leverage their upgrades against the shield health of protoss, add in the potential for repairs and the general inefficiency of stalker weapon upgrades, you have a half decent unit. Added bonus: if you really need something to sink resources into, protoss will ALWAYS provide you with a promising yamato cannon target.
Once again, this could only hypothetically work in a build that emphasizes air upgrades from the get go, switching to it willy-nilly is not going to use your resources efficiently as Battle cruisers just take too much time to get up, let alone actually fighting when their damage is being dropped by 5 per shot (armor upgrades + guardian shield).
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On November 07 2011 19:01 Rivkeh wrote:
The correct answer is probably to just not mine gas you're not going to use, as has been stated by a number of people.
I'd like to see battlecruisers get a bit of use, but thats not happening unless you come into the game with a build that includes pumping air upgrades. There have already been a number of posts stating why you should not get into battlecruisers, but I'd like to look at the upside a bit. You can transition your viking infrastracture into a BC infastructure, and plan from the get-go to pump air upgrades. This would go well with a double-ups bio plan where you start pumping air attack as soon as you get your armory to unlock level 2 upgrades, this would happen prior to any scouting of colossus. Hopefully, such an emphasis on air upgrades will allow for two things: 1.) easier "front end" damaging of colossus, bringing them down before they can burn your bio to shreds and 2.) less risk of over committing into vikings as you're making more upgrades and numerically less vikings, as an added bonus they do a little more damage on the ground so if you've got some left over do a pseudo drop into a mineral line, vikings may blow against units that fight back, but the practically run through workers, as an added bonus with some good drop micro you could actually box in a mineral line as vikings are fairly wide, forcing your opponent to mineral walk as his only means out.
From here, move out those starports onto new tech labs and build more rax on their reactors. upgraded BCs will have an edge on protoss because it is so inefficient for protoss to upgrade shields, BCs will always be able to leverage their upgrades against the shield health of protoss, add in the potential for repairs and the general inefficiency of stalker weapon upgrades, you have a half decent unit. Added bonus: if you really need something to sink resources into, protoss will ALWAYS provide you with a promising yamato cannon target.
Once again, this could only hypothetically work in a build that emphasizes air upgrades from the get go, switching to it willy-nilly is not going to use your resources efficiently as Battle cruisers just take too much time to get up, let alone actually fighting when their damage is being dropped by 5 per shot (armor upgrades + guardian shield).
correct me if I'm wrong, but won't you be screwed over massively if the P just...
doesn't get colossi and instead getting HT?
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Cloaked Banshees are a much better option than BCs or Thors since the only option for P mobile detection is the observer. If you manage to catch him by surprise by hiding them before the engagement, one scan + target the observer and that battle will be incredibly one-sided.
If you're worried about having a micro battle between the toss of "who kills the observer or feedbacks the banshees 1st" then you could still bunch them up and do raiding at his mining bases. Like mutas after a certain number of them you can just take canons on (or if he has artosis pylons just unpower all his canons)
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On November 07 2011 17:26 BearDK wrote:
how is this a problem? you say you need more minerals, try using mules.
The Problem is that you mine out your bases a lot faster and get less use out of your expansions. On Maps like Metalopolis you will run into a lot of trouble if the game lasts over 40 minutes because you will be mined out on minerals with at least 6 untouched geysirs left while your opponent isn't close to being outmined using all the geysirs at his expansions because he can balance his gas and mineral count a lot better.
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Russian Federation473 Posts
On November 08 2011 01:02 Baum wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2011 17:26 BearDK wrote:
how is this a problem? you say you need more minerals, try using mules. The Problem is that you mine out your bases a lot faster and get less use out of your expansions. On Maps like Metalopolis you will run into a lot of trouble if the game lasts over 40 minutes because you will be mined out on minerals with at least 6 untouched geysirs left while your opponent isn't close to being outmined using all the geysirs at his expansions because he can balance his gas and mineral count a lot better.
yup, very annoying to see these massive numbers of archons behind the zealot horde and to realize that you don't have a similar thing.
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1. Upgrades are the most important thing to get with upgrades. Double upgrade at your engineering bay in the late game, upgrade air weapons, and ghost upgrades.
2. Nukes are a handy little tool to force responses from the protoss player. This is probably one of the easiest ways to create opportunities in the late game.
3. Reapers are incredible late game TvP, most notably used by QXC is various tournament/ladder games.
4. Cloak banshees can be useful is some scenarios, although I don't have enough experience with them to tell you what to look for to make that decision.
edit: Also be more open minded. It feels like you don't want there to be a good answer.
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Russian Federation473 Posts
On November 08 2011 15:41 alphafuzard wrote:
1. Upgrades are the most important thing to get with upgrades. Double upgrade at your engineering bay in the late game, upgrade air weapons, and ghost upgrades.
2. Nukes are a handy little tool to force responses from the protoss player. This is probably one of the easiest ways to create opportunities in the late game.
3. Reapers are incredible late game TvP, most notably used by QXC is various tournament/ladder games.
4. Cloak banshees can be useful is some scenarios, although I don't have enough experience with them to tell you what to look for to make that decision.
edit: Also be more open minded. It feels like you don't want there to be a good answer.
dude i'm absolutely open-minded, but i'm also open-eyed. and i've seen and played a lot of tvps, and there never was a good way to spend all this gas.
you say make upgrades? of course i will be at 3-3 and still will have a 4-digit gas surplus.
nukes? i agree that they are a good option.
cloaked banshees? i suggested them as an option in the op, but they have their problems (vulnerable to aoe, eat a lot of supply and build long).
reapers? no. qxc is a great player, but by all due respect, he's not capable of beating guys like naniwa, mana or mc with his creative tactics.
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On November 08 2011 15:53 Ganseng wrote:
reapers? no. qxc is a great player, but by all due respect, he's not capable of beating guys like naniwa, mana or mc with his creative tactics.
Don't be ridiculous. If reapers work for qxc, then they can work for you.
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Marauders might not be gas heavy, but the fact you go less marine heavy and more marauder heavy in the late game, means you don't have a ton of extra gas, thus spending it on ghosts/medivacs/vikings *should* end up OK as far as I'm aware, and you *shouldn't* be floating massive amounts of gas to the point of needing a gas dump. When the enemy has HT and/or colossus in late game, marines aren't very useful. Even in pro games I see, I rarely notice more than 1 rax with a reactor - rest get techlabs.
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Russian Federation473 Posts
On November 08 2011 16:15 alphafuzard wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2011 15:53 Ganseng wrote:
reapers? no. qxc is a great player, but by all due respect, he's not capable of beating guys like naniwa, mana or mc with his creative tactics. Don't be ridiculous. If reapers work for qxc, then they can work for you.
no. between equally skilled players, reapers don't work.
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I saw qxc build a second starport with techlab as he was getting the gas in his third base to constanly produce ravens. It helped a lot agains stalkers and the turrets made for a nice harrisn option (plus, they never disapper so it was sued to spot expansions) i think its has uses but not as straight forward as mineral have in late game.
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BCs are decent if your opponent has a low stalker count, which they usually do if you're marauder heavy. Archons aren't the best against BCs, HTs can feedback but BCs have so much HP they can tank it pretty well, and void rays are rare.
Otherwise you can get fast upgrades.
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Why not build MORE Medivacs and even MORE Ghosts? Medivacs are very gas-intensive ... 
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On November 08 2011 18:55 Ganseng wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2011 16:15 alphafuzard wrote:On November 08 2011 15:53 Ganseng wrote:
reapers? no. qxc is a great player, but by all due respect, he's not capable of beating guys like naniwa, mana or mc with his creative tactics. Don't be ridiculous. If reapers work for qxc, then they can work for you. no. between equally skilled players, reapers don't work.
They worked for qxc against Genius, who is at least on his level if not better imo.
Reapers work but only in niche situations and incredibly small timing windows. They're best used when the Protoss goes double forge chrono-upgrades. Sniping them continuously keeps the Terran at a great advantage. In fact I believe in that game it was precisely because Genius couldn't finish 3/3 that his army got rolled by qxc's bio.
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With Mules, and a lategame number of Orbital Commands and built up energy on them, I really don't think you WANT a gas dump. I would be more worried about a Terran just banking up that gas, so when he gets a new base he goes 10-20 mules and within a minute has enough money to remax his army after a big fight off of a frankly inconsiderate number of Barracks and 2 or so Starports.
This is like a 30+ minute mentality from the Protoss perspective.
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Personally I use a different midgame which balances gas and minerals. I usually open Micromancer's TvP Reaper Opening. Then I stay on 2 rax (1 tech, 1 reactor) pump infantry and upgrades (all tech lab upgrades, and 1 eng bay) and add 3 starports with tech labs. First 2 ravens then banshees. Once I have 10 or so banshees I move out, scan, take third, drop fusion core, ghost academy, drop another 3-4 tech lab rax and another 2 ports. Attack usually happens between 14 and 16 minute point.
If I scan and they are still on colossus tech I attack and generally win outright. If I scan and they are transitioning to air I pump out 2 rounds of vikings then attack. If templar tech I will usually attack but make sure not to clump banshees. So far this has been a very successful strategy for me even though it is still under development. I recommend air to all my terran brothers, especially banshees en masse.
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Speed reaper harass and nukes I like the sound of. But really, I'd just avoid overmining gas.
Also, in the extreme lategame, Battlecruisers are REALLY good against Protoss. As long as you can keep Feedbacks off of them, by EMPing the templar, or your own battlecruisers, a giant fleet of 3-3 battlecruisers is actually alarmingly hard to deal with for protoss. At around 550~ pt. Master level on NA, I'm yet to lose a lategame TvP where my composition has ended at a large fleet of Battlecruisers w/ ghost support, and it's not just because I'm 50 supply up or something like that. With a few Ravens for PDD, a few vikings if he chooses voidrays to counter your BCs, a few ghosts for a blanket EMP, a huge 3-3 BC fleet is nigh on unstoppable, and a really cool tech-switch for super, super lategame TvP.
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On November 08 2011 23:35 GGPope wrote:
Speed reaper harass and nukes I like the sound of. But really, I'd just avoid overmining gas.
Also, in the extreme lategame, Battlecruisers are REALLY good against Protoss. As long as you can keep Feedbacks off of them, by EMPing the templar, or your own battlecruisers, a giant fleet of 3-3 battlecruisers is actually alarmingly hard to deal with for protoss. At around 550~ pt. Master level on NA, I'm yet to lose a lategame TvP where my composition has ended at a large fleet of Battlecruisers w/ ghost support, and it's not just because I'm 50 supply up or something like that. With a few Ravens for PDD, a few vikings if he chooses voidrays to counter your BCs, a few ghosts for a blanket EMP, a huge 3-3 BC fleet is nigh on unstoppable, and a really cool tech-switch for super, super lategame TvP.
Your BC strat would be a lot more failsafe if you EMPed them with your ghosts yourself. Just a thought.
EMPing them = Risky but higher payoff since it removes their shields as well.
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Reaper transition is deadly. You already have all the infrastructure for it and the only thing holding you back is build time and gas. When you're starting too approach 200/200, this is a great transition to try.
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More ghosts, nukes, and banshees sometimes
Battlecruisers, thors and ravens are just so easy for Protoss to counter they really are not worth it unless you are so far ahead you can e.g. trade armies and remax with like 3-4 starport production
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On November 08 2011 18:55 Ganseng wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2011 16:15 alphafuzard wrote:On November 08 2011 15:53 Ganseng wrote:
reapers? no. qxc is a great player, but by all due respect, he's not capable of beating guys like naniwa, mana or mc with his creative tactics. Don't be ridiculous. If reapers work for qxc, then they can work for you. no. between equally skilled players, reapers don't work.
open your mind
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get the thor upgrade, then--thor drops to destroy nexii!
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I guess i am the only terran who uses all his gas
Gas = medivacs and Ghosts. Versing colossus = vikings
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im trying to go mech vs toss now, it eats up a shit tonne of gas, which is nice, and spend my minerals on blue flame hellions,. but guess what, blizzard just wants us to go marauders vs toss, its ridiculous, im losing so many games trying to figure out how to mech vs toss, but it seems impossible. honestly tired of going bio now, i just want to mech, but it dies to zelots, or colossus, or blink, or immortals. Im going crazy. But i will find a way, or get demoted to diamond trying.
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Ghosts eat a LOT of gas. In a maxed army you should be aiming for about 8-10 Ghosts against Archon/Zealot/HT/Collosus armies so that you can EMP all the shields from all his units and still get the Energy from the HTs. Banshees are a bad idea to have in your main army because they stack a lot and get killed by storm AND feedback.
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Well BCs are a good finisher against protoss if you're ahead and your bio keeps melting to storm/collo. If you're gotten air attack for vikings it can work fairly well since stalkers are shit against infantry support and its heaven if the archons are hitting your BCs instead of bio. But in a close game you just dont have the time/resources/infrastructure to get BCs out.
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I just stop mining gas except for 2-3 once my 3/3 starts. Then I just mule the hell out of the map
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On November 07 2011 15:35 Ganseng wrote:
People what are you talking about? Seeker missile? Range of 6 on feedback's range of 9? What?
PDDs? Against Zealot/Archon/Colossus? 1-2 Ravens may be good to nullify the Stalkers, but Stalkers are usually not the problem by themselves.
BCs? No thank you. 35.5 dps for 400/300/6/90 and with 1.88 speed. Bad idea. Just remember the Boxer vs. HasuObs Game 1 in NASL Season 1, BCs were killed by pure storms (!)
Thors? No, not with feedback. You have to emp them, and to have enough EMPs for all the Protoss stuff. Too much effort and investment, and it's not worth it in the end.
Reapers? Could be good, but with 45 s build time not really (actually it looks like Blizzard initially planned that Reapers would be gas damp for Terran bio, and they had 30 s build time in beta, but then Blizzard decided to screw them...) Reapers don't even inflict much more dps on light targets than marines (16.36 compared to 10.5, and comparison with not-light targets is too heavily in Marines' favor).
The only good idea is to get nukes, it's gas heavy and can be very annoying. Compared to drops, nukes require much less supply and minerals, but take a lot of gas.
And banshees are good for late game raiding out of my experience as well, but we don't see them much in the best players' games.
Other than that, looks like the sarcastic Zergie is correct, we just have to rely on minerals and forget about that silly things called "Terran high tech".in TvP.
... Battlecruisers also have a huge health pool and don't get hit by anything but stalkers/storms. They're a good gas dump, as are ravens. Thors are also quite good if they have a decent stalker count. Reapers are used for killing expansions and not for fighting, qxc occasionally adds 5-10 reapers late game TvP and kills expansions with them. I'm not a huge fan of it, but it can work.
As for "not having enough emps" this is LATE LATE game. You should have a really high ghost count and most of them should have a nice energy pool.
On November 09 2011 08:48 rebuffering wrote:
im trying to go mech vs toss now, it eats up a shit tonne of gas, which is nice, and spend my minerals on blue flame hellions,. but guess what, blizzard just wants us to go marauders vs toss, its ridiculous, im losing so many games trying to figure out how to mech vs toss, but it seems impossible. honestly tired of going bio now, i just want to mech, but it dies to zelots, or colossus, or blink, or immortals. Im going crazy. But i will find a way, or get demoted to diamond trying.
SlayerS_Dragon was beating high GM tosses with mech and I've seen some really nice TvP mech from Goody. You have to position everything perfectly and never get caught unseiged though. Not really worth it as marauders are just as good in a straight up fight and don't take 10 years to move around the map.
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ur gas should stay low as long as u are building vinkings and getting upgrades, even with 6 geysers vikings, ghost plus upgrades and mauraders is enough. Especially the weapon upgrades. And medvacs if u have 2 starports. I find that i always forget something when my money/gas gets too high.
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Russian Federation473 Posts
On November 09 2011 04:41 alphafuzard wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2011 18:55 Ganseng wrote:On November 08 2011 16:15 alphafuzard wrote:On November 08 2011 15:53 Ganseng wrote:
reapers? no. qxc is a great player, but by all due respect, he's not capable of beating guys like naniwa, mana or mc with his creative tactics. Don't be ridiculous. If reapers work for qxc, then they can work for you. no. between equally skilled players, reapers don't work. open your mind
huk vs. thorzain on shakuras:
thorzain wins with marauders and ghosts and huk's mistakes, builds and certainly wastes some reapers in the process. doesn't mine gas at 3 of his 6 bases and has a 4-digit gas surplus.
qxc vs. genius on xel'naga:
weird indecisive 1-year old game. qxc wins with ghosts and marauders, occasionally builds and wastes some reapers dealing minor damage with them.
3rd game... tvz.
so wait what is your point exactly?
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On November 10 2011 01:11 Ganseng wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2011 04:41 alphafuzard wrote:On November 08 2011 18:55 Ganseng wrote:On November 08 2011 16:15 alphafuzard wrote:On November 08 2011 15:53 Ganseng wrote:
reapers? no. qxc is a great player, but by all due respect, he's not capable of beating guys like naniwa, mana or mc with his creative tactics. Don't be ridiculous. If reapers work for qxc, then they can work for you. no. between equally skilled players, reapers don't work. open your mind huk vs. thorzain on shakuras: thorzain wins with marauders and ghosts and huk's mistakes, builds and certainly wastes some reapers in the process. doesn't mine gas at 3 of his 6 bases and has a 4-digit gas surplus. qxc vs. genius on xel'naga: weird indecisive 1-year old game. qxc wins with ghosts and marauders, occasionally builds and wastes some reapers dealing minor damage with them. 3rd game... tvz. so wait what is your point exactly?
Game 1. Speed reapers snipe a nexus, many probes, and many zealots
Game 2. Qxc takes out the forge upgrading +3, seriously delaying Genius' upgrades, as well as general economic harassment throughout the late game
Game 3. You can't auto link past the first game in gomtv.net
In the 2nd game, qxc uses 8-9 reapers to snipe BBi's 4th base and probes, setting him up to win the game a few minutes later.
They are reapers, not the magic, be-all end-all of TvP, but a very nice late game option to spread tosses out and make opportunities. Don't expect 8-9 50/50 costing units to annihilate your opponent.....
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I agree with some that said not to mine the gas. It is tempting to try to find a use for extra gas because you are gonna be mining and defending the location so you want to use the resources but as long as you can keep from being over saturated then I think just making more MMMVG would be better. If you cannot keep from being over saturated then mine the gas and make some reapers or banshees or ravens. I do think there is a lot of potential with late game reapers (as combat units) because they will have speed upgrade and be 3/3 because of your bio play, although colossus will render them uselss but if the protoss is using templar at the time they should be able to do good damage if you can dodge the storms! Also, keeping them behind marauders will shred the zealots incoming. Lol, I am dreamcrafting too much...
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Russian Federation473 Posts
On November 10 2011 01:40 alphafuzard wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2011 01:11 Ganseng wrote:On November 09 2011 04:41 alphafuzard wrote:On November 08 2011 18:55 Ganseng wrote:On November 08 2011 16:15 alphafuzard wrote:On November 08 2011 15:53 Ganseng wrote:
reapers? no. qxc is a great player, but by all due respect, he's not capable of beating guys like naniwa, mana or mc with his creative tactics. Don't be ridiculous. If reapers work for qxc, then they can work for you. no. between equally skilled players, reapers don't work. open your mind huk vs. thorzain on shakuras: thorzain wins with marauders and ghosts and huk's mistakes, builds and certainly wastes some reapers in the process. doesn't mine gas at 3 of his 6 bases and has a 4-digit gas surplus. qxc vs. genius on xel'naga: weird indecisive 1-year old game. qxc wins with ghosts and marauders, occasionally builds and wastes some reapers dealing minor damage with them. 3rd game... tvz. so wait what is your point exactly? Game 1. Speed reapers snipe a nexus, many probes, and many zealots Game 2. Qxc takes out the forge upgrading +3, seriously delaying Genius' upgrades, as well as general economic harassment throughout the late game Game 3. You can't auto link past the first game in gomtv.net In the 2nd game, qxc uses 8-9 reapers to snipe BBi's 4th base and probes, setting him up to win the game a few minutes later. They are reapers, not the magic, be-all end-all of TvP, but a very nice late game option to spread tosses out and make opportunities. Don't expect 8-9 50/50 costing units to annihilate your opponent.....
game 1 - reapers do kill the nexus, but it was simply a multi-pronged attack, marauders would have done it better due to their higher dps and much higher durability. anyways, it were engagements that won thorzain the game, not harrass, and certainly not reaper harrass.
overall reapers costed thorzain much more resources than they inflicted damage to huk. and again thorzain didn't mine gas on half of his bases, and still had a very high gas surplus.
game 2 - it was really weird, indecisive and passive for a professional level, you have to admit it. the only noticeable damage dealt by reapers was destruction of that forge, and really, by then genius should've been on 3-3-3 already.
reapers may come to play sometimes in the late tvp, but their rare successes just prove the overall rule: reapers are bad.
there are two reasons for it:
-they build too long;
-they are worth nothing in a direct engagement.
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When i play Protoss its nice to warp a round of centuries to spend surplus gas. Zerg is generally gas dependent and can blow large amounts of minerals on lings whenever they need.
Besides adding a couple ravens for PDD Viking protection vs stalker fire, there's no efficient way to spend the gas surplus. You're mineral starved so every resource spent on a reaper, or un-upgraded Thor is sub-optimal. Terran doesn't have many options in late game and usually has a surplus of gas, it'd be nice if Blizzard added a late game high tier tech unit that could soak up some of the excess gas and be useful.
If the Battle Hellion and Warhound additions open up mech play as a more viable option, the problem won't exist. I have doubts the Warhound will be useful in TvP, but I'm very optimistic about the Battle Hellion.
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Russian Federation473 Posts
On November 10 2011 16:33 mlspmatt wrote:
When i play Protoss its nice to warp a round of centuries to spend surplus gas. Zerg is generally gas dependent and can blow large amounts of minerals on lings whenever they need.
Besides adding a couple ravens for PDD Viking protection vs stalker fire, there's no efficient way to spend the gas surplus. You're mineral starved so every resource spent on a reaper, or un-upgraded Thor is sub-optimal. Terran doesn't have many options in late game and usually has a surplus of gas, it'd be nice if Blizzard added a late game high tier tech unit that could soak up some of the excess gas and be useful.
If the Battle Hellion and Warhound additions open up mech play as a more viable option, the problem won't exist. I have doubts the Warhound will be useful in TvP, but I'm very optimistic about the Battle Hellion.
it would be nicer if they made the existing units work in tvp :D
i don't see any problems with gas spending in tvz and tvt, a lot of high-tech gas-heavy options are viable in these match-ups. in fact, i usually starve for gas in tvt and tvz (like many other terrans who don't like bio).
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On November 08 2011 18:55 Ganseng wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2011 16:15 alphafuzard wrote:On November 08 2011 15:53 Ganseng wrote:
reapers? no. qxc is a great player, but by all due respect, he's not capable of beating guys like naniwa, mana or mc with his creative tactics. Don't be ridiculous. If reapers work for qxc, then they can work for you. no. between equally skilled players, reapers don't work.
That is horrible logic. It is like how a 4 gate works against Zerg up to Master League, but any decent Zerg player won't lose against it. I honestly do not think Reapers are a good transition, but I am just saying the equal skill thing is a horrible logic.
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Russian Federation473 Posts
On November 10 2011 16:54 GloryOfAiur wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2011 18:55 Ganseng wrote:On November 08 2011 16:15 alphafuzard wrote:On November 08 2011 15:53 Ganseng wrote:
reapers? no. qxc is a great player, but by all due respect, he's not capable of beating guys like naniwa, mana or mc with his creative tactics. Don't be ridiculous. If reapers work for qxc, then they can work for you. no. between equally skilled players, reapers don't work. That is horrible logic. It is like how a 4 gate works against Zerg up to Master League, but any decent Zerg player won't lose against it. I honestly do not think Reapers are a good transition, but I am just saying the equal skill thing is a horrible logic.
ehhhhhhhhhhh??
so if something works only against a weaker opponent, and doesn't work against an equal opponent, it doesn't mean that this thing is overall up, does it?
did i understand you right?
then i have to just disagree with you without any further discussion.
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On November 09 2011 04:41 alphafuzard wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2011 18:55 Ganseng wrote:On November 08 2011 16:15 alphafuzard wrote:On November 08 2011 15:53 Ganseng wrote:
reapers? no. qxc is a great player, but by all due respect, he's not capable of beating guys like naniwa, mana or mc with his creative tactics. Don't be ridiculous. If reapers work for qxc, then they can work for you. no. between equally skilled players, reapers don't work. open your mind
The reapers did fuck all btw. Amusing watch, but overall like 25 reapers made sniped 1 nexus and some probes
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maybe you just don't need to get up every gas in the world as terran if you're going MMM
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EPT
