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Hi TL, since I've started playing terran in SC2 I've never really been able to hold off cannon rushes. Since they are so rare in master league, however, I haven't really felt like it was much of an issue. But this morning some scrub on ladder managed to 2-0 me by cannon rushing, and I think it's time I get some help.
Replays:
+ Show Spoiler +
What could I have done better in these games? Game 1 was kind of pathetic and pretty much a gigantic failure by me, but I felt like game 2 was played pretty well. I tried to go for a wall off to prevent the probe from getting sight of my high ground for as long as possible, but he was able to get up my ramp enough to shoot down my depot and then get back in my base to start building more cannons.
Also what unit should I go for? I know from getting cannoned in 2v2s that the best response is usually to go for a fast tank and repair it while targetting the cannons, but it seems like I just die before I get the chance to do that in 1v1. Should I go for a marauder instead? Also should I wall off or not, and how many scvs should I use to attack the initial pylon, or should I just let it go up?
Thanks in advance guys.
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Dont wall, build bunkers in key spots, mass repair bunkers while you make a reaper or 2 and go wreck his min line, try not to let him see it so he doesnt cannon his mineral line. This has always been my response.
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Terran has the best defense against Cannon rushes... Lift just lift all your stuff and float to a new base the protoss just wasted a ton of mineral cannon rushing your base. float to your nat or the nearest base.
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If the cannons have already finished your best bet is to get a marauder and put it in a bunker, since it has the same range as a cannon, and can take on a cannon quite easily. If he hasn't built the cannon yet, pull 4 SCV's and attack the cannon that is most completed. Just be sure to pull back the SCVs if a cannon finishes. From there you have two ways of killing the cannons. Maraduers can destroy a handful of cannons while taking minimal losses, but becomes kind of impractical if the opponent has overcommited on the cannons (He puts 10 of them outside your base. If that happens the best thing to do is build a pair of siege tanks with siege mode and take out the cannons from afar.
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I watched rep#2. Things I saw:
- A pylon in your base that early you know its a cannon rush.
- Your reaction of putting one scv on the probe was good.
- Pulling a bunch of scvs to kill the pylon was BAD
-The pylon can finish it doesn't matter, what you need to do is as soon as you realize its a cannon rush is you need to block the low ground wall spots on maps that have them, because if he gets those up your in trouble.
-Put one scv on the probe and send 2 or 3 down to block the two low ground spots. May even be worth it to drop a depot to block.
- If he drops cannons that are unprotected by pylon walls pull 3 scvs to kill them as soon as he puts them down.
- Spend your money, you should have put up 2 or 3 additional barracks and tried to get a bunker up, remember if you stop this you win you dont need to say with your B.O.
The biggest mistake was trying to kill the high-ground pylon instead of blocking the low ground though, I think if you did that you would have held easy.
Edit: did the people above me even watch the replay? Tanks really?
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A Terran asking how to defend cheese, that's new... So much for being uncheesable.
Alright here's a few reasons why you are the best race vs cannon rush:
1. Marines being your first cheapest unit has a range attack, be GRATEFUL, it is 999 times harder to hold off a cannon rush if you're protoss/zerg.
2. SCVs has 5 extra health, takes a cannon an extra shot to kill an SCV.
3. You can wall off.
4. You can fly your buildings please.
Few things to note:
1. 4 workers is enough to destroy any protoss structure being warped in.
2. Don't lose your first marine, it is a range unit man...
I would say you probably lost both the games because you lost your first marine.
On to Game1,
1. A probe throws down a pylon in your base, send 4 workers to attack it. Send 1 more worker to follow his probe.
2. Get your first marine out ASAP. Your 4 workers should destroyed his pylon in your base anytime soon.
From here on there are a few ways to defend against such a pitiful cannon rush, but since you're Terran, the easiest way is to:
3. Wall off immediately after his probe leaves your base.
4. Your first marine, please, just put it on the lower part of the edge of your base to the depot further away from the cannon. When his probe comes out, try to shoot it down. In the mean time, throw down a bunker. As long as the probe gets shot at everytime it moves up the ramp, it's over for him. Once your bunker is up, you can start the BM.
Game 2
You would have held it off already. After walling off your marine went to the far side depot to try to prevent his probe from coming up alright. You didn't throw down a bunker immediately. When his probe kissed your under-fire depot, your marine was doing nothing. You could have at least tried to move your marine a little behind the rax and shoot the probe if you didn't want to lower down your depot to go out. Kill the probe = cannons stop shooting = win.
If you want to be safe, everytime you see a canon rush, throw down a bunker immediately. Kill probes above anything else. If the depots break before your 2nd marine/bunker finishes. Just pull a few SCVs and attack the incoming probe together with the marine, it should die before it gets to throw down anything. And even if it did, your marine would be able to shoot it down with your 3rd one already coming up (I count it as 3rd because you shouldn't have lost your first). If you have 2 marines, you can kill the probe on the ramp before the cannon actually kill your marines (you can SCV meatshield if you doubt this).
If ALL else fails,
1. Like in that Xelnaga Caverns game, you could have even chilled and let him throw all those cannons, you just have to fly your buildings further and further away while getting units. Lastly, fly your cc (but I doubt it if you don't have enough marines to take out his stuff by that time. The more he invest in cannons, the worse his economy and tech is so you are not that far behind (what are MULES for lol).
2. Planetary Fotress  The mother of all cannons. Wall off should delay him.
3. Reapers and all those fancy stuff do work if you decide to abandon base and fly somewhere else.
But really, you would almost never come to a situation where you need to do all these fancy stuff. You could have even lifted off your rax in his face and shoot his probe for the fun of it.
I guess you just don't get cannoned at all, because nobody would want to cannon a Terran anyway.
Next time you see a cannon, remember to LOL, remember to BM, and remember to take your free win.
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On November 03 2011 23:51 Leaky wrote:
But this morning some scrub on ladder managed to 2-0 me by cannon rushing, and I think it's time I get some help.
When you are being beaten by scrubs, I'd say it is time to get some help too. Against any kind of cheese as you know, small mistakes can lead to a loss since the game is in such a fragile state early on. It pays to be patient against a cannon rush.
In the Xel Naga Caverns game, you lost your first Marine by running him into a cannon when he could have been used to chip away at a building cannon, and then tried to pull all your SCV's off the line to kill a cannon. Instead you should have backed off and constructed a bunker inbetween your Barracks and Command Center, and lifted your Barracks and landed it somewhere else (behind the mineral line works). I would also build another Bunker (possibly 2 more) to cover the rest of your base. At the same time, you're getting a Marauder at your Barracks to load into the Bunker. You can follow up with Reapers to send to his base too. You might think a bunch of bunkers is a pretty big investment, but remember you can recycle them and his investment in cannons cannot be recycled.
In the Metal game, you lost Marines unnecessarily by running them into cannons. Keep them back! You also didn't have all your Marines firing freely at constructing structures all time, and this should have been happening. These small mistakes lead to a loss. Remember also, if you pick off the Probe on the ramp, the Cannons lose their high ground vision. Finally you threw down a factory during the rush which was incredibly wasteful. Instead as soon as you realize it is a cannon rush you need to throw down some bunkers. Again, you can recycle them while anything the Protoss builds will be a total waste if the rush fails.
It is always best to try and pick off the Probe building the pylons and cannons, so that should be your focus initially, as it can get you a very quick win. You can try and lift off to another expansion if it looks like it will be difficult to stop the rush, but it isn't always the greatest idea, because if the Protoss see you doing this they can start blocking off nearby expansions with pylons.
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WHY OH WHY are people saying that lifting your cc and floating to your nat/new base is viable? are you insane? even if the protoss spent 650 minerals on 2pylons and 3 cannons to get you out of that base, his income compared to yours is going to make up for it by far. i dont even think that adding in the cost of the forge would make a difference either.
floating your buildings is not viable against cannon rushes, at best it makes you equal to him.
bunkers in key places are the best way to deal with them, exactly the same way as dealing with a cannon rush as protoss and using cannons of your own to defend.
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On November 04 2011 00:47 CptCutter wrote:
WHY OH WHY are people saying that lifting your cc and floating to your nat/new base is viable? are you insane? even if the protoss spent 650 minerals on 2pylons and 3 cannons to get you out of that base, his income compared to yours is going to make up for it by far. i dont even think that adding in the cost of the forge would make a difference either.
floating your buildings is not viable against cannon rushes, at best it makes you equal to him.
bunkers in key places are the best way to deal with them, exactly the same way as dealing with a cannon rush as protoss and using cannons of your own to defend.
It is the worst case scenario, they are just saying if you truly fail so hard in defending it, you can fly your rax down to make stuff and pressure the protoss while flying your cc somewhere else. On maps like meta if you fly it to the gold you are actually not that behind.
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If the cannons come from the low ground, do your best to simply not let him get vision of high ground.
If its coming from the same plane as your base, do your best to get a marauder inside a bunker, use the marine to try to snipe the probe if it gets too close to your base. Sending SCVs at the cannons should be a last-ditch effort when all else fails.
If you catch the first couple buildings being warped in, your priority is the probe. if you send 6 SCV at a pylon, he will probably just cancel and get a little ahead through that. Just send 4 per cannon as soon as you see them, and hopefully you arent pulling off too many SCVs to break even.
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Yea, I really doubt a seige tank would be out in time to be helpful. Using rines near the ramp to prevent the probe form poking up would be ideal, and bunkers being repaired are > cannons. Especially if you can get a marauder or reaper out. Barracks units in bunkers is your best chance to defend this.
A bunker near the ramp with rines in it means his probe can never poke for vision, which means you get a free win.
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What has been said already in this thread is all viable information in regards to cannon rush defenses. Your best bet is to scout, scout and scout some more if you're sensing some level of danger. A bunker will delay the cannons massively until you get siege/marauders. I usually just bumrush for a factory as I know cannons won't be able to kill me that quickly if I have some scvs repairing the bunker and I'll get the tank out and hellions to take on the zealots that will inevitably come shortly there after.
The tank is most beneficial as you can quickly clear out all of the other cannons (ignoring the fact that with marauders you'll have to eventually push out of your bunker line which can be problematic depending on the cannon numbers
Cannon rushes are not nearly as effective as they were in sc bw as the unit pathing AI is much more advanced.
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On November 04 2011 00:47 CptCutter wrote:
WHY OH WHY are people saying that lifting your cc and floating to your nat/new base is viable? are you insane? even if the protoss spent 650 minerals on 2pylons and 3 cannons to get you out of that base, his income compared to yours is going to make up for it by far. i dont even think that adding in the cost of the forge would make a difference either.
floating your buildings is not viable against cannon rushes, at best it makes you equal to him.
bunkers in key places are the best way to deal with them, exactly the same way as dealing with a cannon rush as protoss and using cannons of your own to defend.
I agree with this guy, also don't forget that if you lift off your cc you might never be able to land it again, since ... you know ... that pesky probeez
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On November 04 2011 01:03 Mente wrote:
What has been said already in this thread is all viable information in regards to cannon rush defenses. Your best bet is to scout, scout and scout some more if you're sensing some level of danger. A bunker will delay the cannons massively until you get siege/marauders. I usually just bumrush for a factory as I know cannons won't be able to kill me that quickly if I have some scvs repairing the bunker and I'll get the tank out and hellions to take on the zealots that will inevitably come shortly there after.
The tank is most beneficial as you can quickly clear out all of the other cannons (ignoring the fact that with marauders you'll have to eventually push out of your bunker line which can be problematic depending on the cannon numbers
Cannon rushes are not nearly as effective as they were in sc bw as the unit pathing AI is much more advanced.
Did you even watch the replay?? Lol tanks? Scout? No one scouts at 9 in tvp. If a protoss builds a pylon in your base by your ramp, its OBVIOUSLY a cannon rush. you don't have to scout, then scout some more if its obvious. There is no way in hell he woulda survived till tanks. He should have sent a reaper to his base, built a bunker, and not try to erect that wall.
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The main point is to pull SCVs to the building CANNONS, not the PYLONS.
This is for a multitude of reasons. A - Cannons cost more minerals than pylons do, so if you kill it or force a cancel it's more of a big deal. B - Cannons have 100 less HP than Pylons. C - Pylons build in less time than cannons, and are thus easier to replace.
That's the key to defending a cannon rush. Everything else is secondary, besides the obvious SCOUT.
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Hm the marauder in a bunker idea sounds like the best one I've heard. So I guess I should just focus on delaying the cannon rush with scvs long enough to rush for that bunker/marauder...
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Ok I'm not trying to troll, like I have not checked the viablity of what I am about to say. But when people used to cannon rush me, back in ~gold? My first response was to use whatever marine(s) to deny any further cannon rushing, like I would stop it before it touched my OC. My second was, to simply float my orbital to the nearest expo or close by gold. I feel that the protoss is behind you if you do this, and with good scouting/zoning you can deny any further cannoning at your next base.
Honestly that is what I did and I lost to like the very first cannon rush, that was all (never again)
Or maybe I was just better than everyone who cannon rushed back in gold.
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On November 03 2011 23:59 SigmaoctanusIV wrote:
Terran has the best defense against Cannon rushes... Lift just lift all your stuff and float to a new base the protoss just wasted a ton of mineral cannon rushing your base. float to your nat or the nearest base.
This is good advice for like plat and below, but higher level players won't commit to it once they get their first few cannons up.
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On November 04 2011 07:13 xlava wrote:Show nested quote +On November 03 2011 23:59 SigmaoctanusIV wrote:
Terran has the best defense against Cannon rushes... Lift just lift all your stuff and float to a new base the protoss just wasted a ton of mineral cannon rushing your base. float to your nat or the nearest base. This is good advice for like plat and below, but higher level players won't commit to it once they get their first few cannons up.
If you're gold or below you could do the thing back at him with your scouting SCV, hide a CC in his base and PF rush him lol
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Lift off and don't fly through the cannons.
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EPT
