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On October 30 2011 06:28 TangSC wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2011 11:19 sanddbox_sc2 wrote:
These guides are so blatantly dishonest. You're not a master of aggressive play; as someone who has an aggressive playstyle myself, aggressive play involves scouting weaknesses and capitalizing them through attack rather than trying to macro; these are things like constantly checking if the enemy is vulnerable to a counter attack and consistently scouting them to see if they're cutting any corners.
What you're advocating is blind cheese, such as your ling/bling allin vs a 2raxing Terran. You have no strategic or mechanical skill, you simply do allin builds that players haven't seen before or see very rarely, which works great on ladder, especially because players so often cut corners.
You're not doing any high-level play, or even playing Zerg "aggressively". Playing Zerg aggressively is abusing the speed of your units to punish mistakes; you're just doing blatant allin build orders that are easily countered. For instance, you do things like ling bling or roach ling allin players based on what you think they might be doing, whereas if they were to be playing safe or doing something else you would automatically lose.
You're trash, and whether you're grandmaster or not, it means absolutely nothing. You're conning others and writing useless guides (in fact, I believe one of your first "guides" was the usual life coaching positive mindset bullshit).
Anybody reading this guide shouldn't listen to a word of it, except to memorize build orders if you feel like executing an allin and not trying to actually improve your fundamental play. You're certainly entitled to your own opinion of my play style, but in actuality I very, very rarely blind all-in, in fact about 90% of my builds will have a switch point where I switch from attacking units back to drones with some sort of economic follow through and I can show so many of my games where I do damage and macro behind it and end up winning, against top master and grand master players. So unless you , you can't just say I'm advocating "blind cheese." Most of my mid-game pushes require 2-3 fully saturated bases so this is my actual "goal" with any early aggressive: to give me a chance to win the game early OR to be at an advantage when I reach the 2-3base timing attack. I like to think of playing zerg like playin poker: there is no "correct" style. There are successful aggressive players and successful tight players. The advantages of being aggressive are that you pick up a lot of small pots (early game wins) but also, when you pick up a solid hand (macro up) you still know how to play it well. And when you play very aggressive, you'll frequently find yourself in tough, unorthodox situations - which is where experience and game sense come in. And those are the situations I love in SC2 - when neither side really knows what the "correct" response and split-second decision making determines the victor!
The difference between poker and sc2 is that you dont have to play a game of probabilities and high risks. You can actually choose between the poker "style" where you often will flip coins on all-ins, or the solid style where you win on better mechanics.
I like to avoid risks, and not win because i get a lucky "river" card or whatever. But every man to his own.
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On October 31 2011 22:12 Hider wrote:Show nested quote +On October 30 2011 06:28 TangSC wrote:On October 29 2011 11:19 sanddbox_sc2 wrote:
These guides are so blatantly dishonest. You're not a master of aggressive play; as someone who has an aggressive playstyle myself, aggressive play involves scouting weaknesses and capitalizing them through attack rather than trying to macro; these are things like constantly checking if the enemy is vulnerable to a counter attack and consistently scouting them to see if they're cutting any corners.
What you're advocating is blind cheese, such as your ling/bling allin vs a 2raxing Terran. You have no strategic or mechanical skill, you simply do allin builds that players haven't seen before or see very rarely, which works great on ladder, especially because players so often cut corners.
You're not doing any high-level play, or even playing Zerg "aggressively". Playing Zerg aggressively is abusing the speed of your units to punish mistakes; you're just doing blatant allin build orders that are easily countered. For instance, you do things like ling bling or roach ling allin players based on what you think they might be doing, whereas if they were to be playing safe or doing something else you would automatically lose.
You're trash, and whether you're grandmaster or not, it means absolutely nothing. You're conning others and writing useless guides (in fact, I believe one of your first "guides" was the usual life coaching positive mindset bullshit).
Anybody reading this guide shouldn't listen to a word of it, except to memorize build orders if you feel like executing an allin and not trying to actually improve your fundamental play. You're certainly entitled to your own opinion of my play style, but in actuality I very, very rarely blind all-in, in fact about 90% of my builds will have a switch point where I switch from attacking units back to drones with some sort of economic follow through and I can show so many of my games where I do damage and macro behind it and end up winning, against top master and grand master players. So unless you , you can't just say I'm advocating "blind cheese." Most of my mid-game pushes require 2-3 fully saturated bases so this is my actual "goal" with any early aggressive: to give me a chance to win the game early OR to be at an advantage when I reach the 2-3base timing attack. I like to think of playing zerg like playin poker: there is no "correct" style. There are successful aggressive players and successful tight players. The advantages of being aggressive are that you pick up a lot of small pots (early game wins) but also, when you pick up a solid hand (macro up) you still know how to play it well. And when you play very aggressive, you'll frequently find yourself in tough, unorthodox situations - which is where experience and game sense come in. And those are the situations I love in SC2 - when neither side really knows what the "correct" response and split-second decision making determines the victor! The difference between poker and sc2 is that you dont have to play a game of probabilities and high risks. You can actually choose between the poker "style" where you often will flip coins on all-ins, or the solid style where you win on better mechanics. I like to avoid risks, and not win because i get a lucky "river" card or whatever. But every man to his own.
Just because you play macro doesn't mean you aren't taking risks. In fact, I feel most comfortable when I'm playing my hyper aggressive style I feel like it's when I'm droning that I'm taking the risk. There's so many ways of approaching that game that you're right, it really "to each their own" but I would disagree when you say playing aggressive is risky or lucky.
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On October 31 2011 22:32 TangSC wrote:Show nested quote +On October 31 2011 22:12 Hider wrote:On October 30 2011 06:28 TangSC wrote:On October 29 2011 11:19 sanddbox_sc2 wrote:
These guides are so blatantly dishonest. You're not a master of aggressive play; as someone who has an aggressive playstyle myself, aggressive play involves scouting weaknesses and capitalizing them through attack rather than trying to macro; these are things like constantly checking if the enemy is vulnerable to a counter attack and consistently scouting them to see if they're cutting any corners.
What you're advocating is blind cheese, such as your ling/bling allin vs a 2raxing Terran. You have no strategic or mechanical skill, you simply do allin builds that players haven't seen before or see very rarely, which works great on ladder, especially because players so often cut corners.
You're not doing any high-level play, or even playing Zerg "aggressively". Playing Zerg aggressively is abusing the speed of your units to punish mistakes; you're just doing blatant allin build orders that are easily countered. For instance, you do things like ling bling or roach ling allin players based on what you think they might be doing, whereas if they were to be playing safe or doing something else you would automatically lose.
You're trash, and whether you're grandmaster or not, it means absolutely nothing. You're conning others and writing useless guides (in fact, I believe one of your first "guides" was the usual life coaching positive mindset bullshit).
Anybody reading this guide shouldn't listen to a word of it, except to memorize build orders if you feel like executing an allin and not trying to actually improve your fundamental play. You're certainly entitled to your own opinion of my play style, but in actuality I very, very rarely blind all-in, in fact about 90% of my builds will have a switch point where I switch from attacking units back to drones with some sort of economic follow through and I can show so many of my games where I do damage and macro behind it and end up winning, against top master and grand master players. So unless you , you can't just say I'm advocating "blind cheese." Most of my mid-game pushes require 2-3 fully saturated bases so this is my actual "goal" with any early aggressive: to give me a chance to win the game early OR to be at an advantage when I reach the 2-3base timing attack. I like to think of playing zerg like playin poker: there is no "correct" style. There are successful aggressive players and successful tight players. The advantages of being aggressive are that you pick up a lot of small pots (early game wins) but also, when you pick up a solid hand (macro up) you still know how to play it well. And when you play very aggressive, you'll frequently find yourself in tough, unorthodox situations - which is where experience and game sense come in. And those are the situations I love in SC2 - when neither side really knows what the "correct" response and split-second decision making determines the victor! The difference between poker and sc2 is that you dont have to play a game of probabilities and high risks. You can actually choose between the poker "style" where you often will flip coins on all-ins, or the solid style where you win on better mechanics. I like to avoid risks, and not win because i get a lucky "river" card or whatever. But every man to his own. Just because you play macro doesn't mean you aren't taking risks. In fact, I feel most comfortable when I'm playing my hyper aggressive style I feel like it's when I'm droning that I'm taking the risk. There's so many ways of approaching that game that you're right, it really "to each their own" but I would disagree when you say playing aggressive is risky or lucky.
There is smart aggression, like the kinds of counterattacking and constant prodding that DRG does, and dumb, coin-flip aggression, which is what you do. In Starcraft 2, allins are very effective against a player not at the top of their game, especially during ladder, when it's essentially a bo1 (and therefore you have no chance to establish how skilled your opponent is beforehand).
A true "aggressive" ZvT style would involve frequent counterattacks and timing attacks, but never blind allins. Indeed, an aggressive style can include allins, such as how JulyZerg plays, but these allins need to be calculated, not completely blind, and they must be on multiple bases to have the greatest chance of success (for example, a 6gate is a lot scarier than a 4gate and offers more of a fallback).
If you'd like, I'd be glad to play a showmatch against you simply to demonstrate how poorly you understand the game. (Disclaimer: Winning showmatches doesn't prove a point, this is purely to illustrate what a poor player Tang is).
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after watching soda's rep, very questionable why you would open speedlings in ZvT on Shakuras. You also kept drones in gas which allowed him to know you are going with some heavy 1-base/all-in and blindly at that. That was pretty blind all-in and then you transition into another all-in with roaches. There's a difference between aggressive play and all-ins.
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Watched the majority and it looks pretty cool. Nice job!
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On November 01 2011 15:40 .kv wrote:
after watching soda's rep, very questionable why you would open speedlings in ZvT on Shakuras. You also kept drones in gas which allowed him to know you are going with some heavy 1-base/all-in and blindly at that. That was pretty blind all-in and then you transition into another all-in with roaches. There's a difference between aggressive play and all-ins.
So a guy is not allowed to cheese on ladder? Is cheese suddenly a crime? You've never seen any grand master player do a blind cheese?
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A sanddbox_sc2 vs TangSC show match would be amazing. It would be a great way for Tang to show off his aggressive style in a more competitive environment (a series of games vs the same opponent rather than a single ladder game).
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On November 01 2011 15:24 sSoda wrote:+ Show Spoiler +You're not good and you cheese every game. How can anyone think that you are good? You're also BM which is funny because you put up this facade that you are kind and nice. Sick one base baneling bust bro. I thought you said you rarely do blind all ins? ]
Doing 1 baneling bust = "cheese every game"
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On November 01 2011 18:50 TangSC wrote:Show nested quote +On November 01 2011 15:24 sSoda wrote:+ Show Spoiler +You're not good and you cheese every game. How can anyone think that you are good? You're also BM which is funny because you put up this facade that you are kind and nice. Sick one base baneling bust bro. I thought you said you rarely do blind all ins? ] Doing 1 baneling bust = "cheese every game"
Yeah thats the only baneling bust you've ever done.
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I wanted to post in a decent thread for my 1500th post, and I came across this.
As someone who used to routinely hang out in Tang's BNet Channel, I really enjoyed this video, and as a player who enjoys the Aggressive Zerg Playstyle, I support this thread.
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On October 29 2011 10:29 Terranist wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2011 14:57 sSoda wrote:On October 28 2011 07:45 Marokeas wrote:On October 28 2011 05:11 sSoda wrote:On October 27 2011 22:24 TangSC wrote:On October 27 2011 14:22 Vei wrote:
Is it true you're not GM? Please answer. No one is GM at the moment, Vei. I was Grand Master from the first day until the last day of season 3. I know for a fact you were not GM last season on either of your accounts. Can't say for Season 1 or 2, still pretty stupid to blatantly lie like that and don't say "I have GM MMR" because that doesn't make you a GM. I have GM MMR but I don't go around advertising that I'm GM. I know for a fact that he WAS GM last season. What say you? Tang and VPTang were not gm last season not only that, it is misleading to call this a grandmaster lecture when he's not even GM and there are several people in this thread that claim he paid real pros to play his account in order to push his coaching website.
Just made GM season 4
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On November 01 2011 15:40 .kv wrote:
after watching soda's rep, very questionable why you would open speedlings in ZvT on Shakuras. You also kept drones in gas which allowed him to know you are going with some heavy 1-base/all-in and blindly at that. That was pretty blind all-in and then you transition into another all-in with roaches. There's a difference between aggressive play and all-ins.
If someone pisses on your 1 base all-in play and challenges you to a grudge-match for your HONOUR AND PRIDE. Would it be more humiliating to kill them with the exact build they were just crapping on, or just do some other random thing?
...and can someone explain to me why we're talking shit about Tang? I see this as some campus event he happened to have a video of and thought it would be nice to share it with TL. No idea how Tang being cocky or bad at sc2 came into this.
So in that respect, thanks for the lecture :D
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people probably talking shit about Tang, because this aggressive build that Tang calls is actually all in plays that extremely risky
sure it will get u to master... but will it make you a pro? no.
I use some of Tang's provided build myself in game, but none of them are actually Macro oriented and if those early pressure doesnt work you are most likely dead against good players. Nothing against Tang, i loved the lecture, but I do not believe this is the way to go about playing sc2. Im just another typical guy who thinks game should last at least 30 mins for nice long macro game. Because in macro game the true skill reveals, not in early all in games.
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On November 02 2011 01:42 Haustka wrote:
people probably talking shit about Tang, because this aggressive build that Tang calls is actually all in plays that extremely risky
sure it will get u to master... but will it make you a pro? no.
I use some of Tang's provided build myself in game, but none of them are actually Macro oriented and if those early pressure doesnt work you are most likely dead against good players. Nothing against Tang, i loved the lecture, but I do not believe this is the way to go about playing sc2. Im just another typical guy who thinks game should last at least 30 mins for nice long macro game. Because in macro game the true skill reveals, not in early all in games.
I think you're right in that the 1base bane bust against toss/terran is fairly all-in, but the trick is to do it in situations where it'll be hard for your opponent to defend (Hence a responsive all-in versus a blind cheese) However, not all aggressive builds are like this - if you check out my newest post on ZvT ( http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=280526 ) you'll see the roach/ling actually has some really powerful transitions and almost never puts you in a terrible spot. I've beat some of the top pros with these builds so you can't really say it's "most likely dead" against good players. Just remember if you're going to play aggressive to have very precise switch-points and planned transitions and timing attacks in the mid-late game.
This is what makes the difference between just making master with hyper-aggression and hitting the top of the master division / grand master. I rarely do an attack and think "damn I'm dead", I usually do some measure of damage and move into the mid-game with either a slight lead or a slight disadvantage (which could easily happen playing macro).
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yeah, its actually great that you do most of your early pressure with very precise timing and calculated moves. Then fall bak and go macro oriented.
ive been working on those type of early aggression myself and have a lot of success as well, but at the same time i also find myself hard to stop keep all ining. I guess thats where experience comes in and amount of time u put into the game.
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We're shit talking about Tang because he's a complete douche bag. He is the most BM player I have ever met on bnet (and I'm far from the only one saying this as you can see in this thread), and I think it's absolutely ridiculous that he puts up this smart nice guy facade when he's actually a premiere ass hole.
He also DOES all in every single game. Especially baneling busts. It's kind of a joke.
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On November 01 2011 17:53 laLAlA[uC] wrote:Show nested quote +On November 01 2011 15:40 .kv wrote:
after watching soda's rep, very questionable why you would open speedlings in ZvT on Shakuras. You also kept drones in gas which allowed him to know you are going with some heavy 1-base/all-in and blindly at that. That was pretty blind all-in and then you transition into another all-in with roaches. There's a difference between aggressive play and all-ins. So a guy is not allowed to cheese on ladder? Is cheese suddenly a crime? You've never seen any grand master player do a blind cheese?
Cheesing every game is fine, to each his own. Cheesing every game, pretending theres merit to it, and writing guides to the extent tang does is just obnoxious.
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On November 02 2011 03:12 Legion710 wrote:
We're shit talking about Tang because he's a complete douche bag. He is the most BM player I have ever met on bnet (and I'm far from the only one saying this as you can see in this thread), and I think it's absolutely ridiculous that he puts up this smart nice guy facade when he's actually a premiere ass hole.
He also DOES all in every single game. Especially baneling busts. It's kind of a joke.
I do like my baneling busts, but it's certainly not my preference. Also, I'm only BM to people who are rude to me first. I'm probably the only guy on Bnet who says "gl hf, have a good game" at the start of every game. I highly recommend people treat their opponents with utmost respect, that's how you learn and find practice partners. And no, I don't all-in every single game. There are quite a few macro games uploaded on my website. If it were possible/reasonable to all-in every game and get to grand master, I'd probably do it - it's simply not possible you HAVE to have followthrough to your aggression and solid macro mechanics.
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I'm not going to lie Legion, but you sound like someone who's butt-hurt because he lost to an all-in or something from Tang and got called 'ez'.
He's actually quite a nice guy in real life... from my experience anyway.
Maybe instead of putting up a facade, he's actually trying to be nice? Or maybe you're just a premiere example of a premiere asshole.
On November 02 2011 03:16 TheSubtleArt wrote:Show nested quote +On November 01 2011 17:53 laLAlA[uC] wrote:On November 01 2011 15:40 .kv wrote:
after watching soda's rep, very questionable why you would open speedlings in ZvT on Shakuras. You also kept drones in gas which allowed him to know you are going with some heavy 1-base/all-in and blindly at that. That was pretty blind all-in and then you transition into another all-in with roaches. There's a difference between aggressive play and all-ins. So a guy is not allowed to cheese on ladder? Is cheese suddenly a crime? You've never seen any grand master player do a blind cheese? Cheesing every game is fine, to each his own. Cheesing every game, pretending theres merit to it, and writing guides to the extent tang does is just obnoxious.
Keep in mind Starcraft is just a game, it's not like Tang is running around parading that the end of the world is nigh and you have to all convert to communism otherwise you're a faggot who needs to be purged at the stake.
Tang found a playstyle that can get you into grandmaster, and he's letting people know. If you're upset and feel that this playstyle is obnoxious, maybe you should do something to help develop sc2 strategy and phase out this style of play, instead of farting out the side of your mouth.
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