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... or that's how I think it's spelled.
Anyways, as we all know, this upgrade boosts turret range, allowing for much more area coverage and discourages mutalisk play.
Questions for discussion:
1. When is the ideal time to get this upgrade?
2. Is it worth adding a 2nd, or even 3rd ebay to run infantry upgrades and this at the same time? Is it worth getting before +1 armor?
3. What do the pros do?
Miscellaneous (Questions about turrets in general)
1. How much is overinvesting in turrets in the main base?
2. Same question, but in the natural?
3. Same question, but in the 3rd, 4th, and so on bases?
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Right time to get upgrade: never
2: no
3: dont get it
1: depends on number of mutas and how many marines/thors you have and your basic strategy for muta defense and the number of muats your facing
I usually put up 1-2 at my main if he has a few mutas and you need to add more randmoly around the base to protect addons adn depots and stuff if he gets a bigger flock and you arent going mech.
I usually put up 3-4 if he has a decent flock at my far expansions
Best way to defend from mutas - do tons of drops that keep him too busy to harass you.
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On October 07 2011 09:18 MrInocence wrote:
... or that's how I think it's spelled.
Anyways, as we all know, this upgrade boosts turret range, allowing for much more area coverage and discourages mutalisk play.
Questions for discussion:
1. When is the ideal time to get this upgrade?
2. Is it worth adding a 2nd, or even 3rd ebay to run infantry upgrades and this at the same time? Is it worth getting before +1 armor?
3. What do the pros do?
Miscellaneous (Questions about turrets in general)
1. How much is overinvesting in turrets in the main base?
2. Same question, but in the natural?
3. Same question, but in the 3rd, 4th, and so on bases?
1. If you are going marine/tank, in the very late game, when all other infentry upgrades have been finished. However, if you are going mech, then you won't need the engy bay for infentry upgrades, so I guess you could invest in it quickly
2. No.
3. Pros basically never get this upgrade, unless its a very long game.
1. It depends on the time. If mutas just popped, then 2 turrets in the mineral line is enough. However, in the lategame when they have a swarm of 20 plus mutas, I would say get 4+ turrets for your mineral lines, and even more for your production.
2. Same as the main.
3. Same as the main.
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There are much better things to spend your gas on. It is not worth it... I don't think I have ever seen a pro get it in TvZ.
Overinvesting in turrets in the main is probably more than 4... 2 in mineral line 2 covering production. I would try to get away with just 2 if I have a good number of marines with medivacs
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if ur playing in a heavy macro game where there are a ton of mutas, your income is VERY HIGH (early 3 base or 4 base+ regular) then sure. feel free to get it if you have invested alot into turrets and there is still a threat of air left.
especially goes for lower league games where there are long stand offs
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On October 07 2011 09:40 Huggerz wrote:
There are much better things to spend your gas on. It is not worth it... I don't think I have ever seen a pro get it in TvZ.
I feel that in mid-late game TvZ, I tend to float gas and I refrain from actually taking the gases at my 4th, and sometimes 3rd base. Is this a huge fundamental problem? I'm rank 3-10 dia on NA server, so I get the basics, but I'm still learning.
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On October 07 2011 09:40 Huggerz wrote:
There are much better things to spend your gas on. It is not worth it... I don't think I have ever seen a pro get it in TvZ.
Overinvesting in turrets in the main is probably more than 4... 2 in mineral line 2 covering production. I would try to get away with just 2 if I have a good number of marines with medivacs
Pros get it occasionally when there is a zerg going really heavy mutas, don't make it sound worse than it is.
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it really depends. but you have to justify it. If the zerg seems to just get a lot of mutas, then it will be worth it. How you find out his strategy is more difficult to judge.
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Pros to get it occasionally - possibly if they know that their opponent is a heavy muta user. However, I think for the casual player, it's almost not worth getting.
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On October 07 2011 09:40 Huggerz wrote:
There are much better things to spend your gas on. It is not worth it... I don't think I have ever seen a pro get it in TvZ.
Overinvesting in turrets in the main is probably more than 4... 2 in mineral line 2 covering production. I would try to get away with just 2 if I have a good number of marines with medivacs
The problem isn't the gas cost, T doesn't require as much gas as the other race (watch GSL/Pros playing, they either don't get gas on the 3rd, or only grab 1 -2 if it's a gold, if not their gas usually starts floating). The problem is that it clogs up valuable upgrade times. Your Eng bays should theoretically be always upgrading weapons upgrade for marines. The big threat of muta is usually when you're still upgrading (as your marines gain more upgrades, you can start relying on them more than turrets).
That said, if you're planning to play mech, then by all means get it and the +2 building armour. It does make a pretty big difference.
Regarding getting away with only using marine/medivac when facing mutas is...playing into the Zerg's hand. If your marines/medvacs are stuck at home defending your base, then Zerg can drone pretty safely and grab expo's. Watch bw, the scenarios are mostly the same but you see Terrans regularly build rows of turrets to block only 11 mutas, just so he can free up marines to pressure.
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I will have to get evidence of this by getting it recorded. But I just did a test on how long it takes a pack of 12 mutas to kill a turret that has high sec tracking and neosteel plating, and how long it takes a pack of mutas to kill a turret with neither upgrade.
My non scientific results came to....
It takes about 7 game seconds for 12 mutas to kill 1 turret with hi sec auto tracking and neosteel plating. 1 muta died, while another was in orange.
It takes about 4 game seconds for 12 mutas to kill 1 turret with NEITHER upgrades on it. No mutas were killed, and one was in the red.
Based on these results, it is hard to say whether you should get these upgrades or not. The DO buy you time (which really is all turrets are good for in the later stages of TvZ when there are way more than 12 mutas). But in the mid game they could seriously ward off muta harassment due to the idea of losing one when you shouldn't be. Finally, as previously noted, in the late game they really start to lose their value as they will just get killed anyway, but they still buy the time.
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what's a discussion without numbers?
How does an upgraded turret (or turrets) fare against batches of 5, 10, 15, 20 mutas?
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On October 07 2011 12:55 michaelhasanalias wrote:
what's a discussion without numbers?
How does an upgraded turret (or turrets) fare against batches of 5, 10, 15, 20 mutas?
I will have to try that out tomorrow......working overtime tomorrow and will need my rest hehehe.
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Armor upgrade is much better upgrade than High-Sec for mutas. It does a fair bit in stalling the muta especially for protecting clusters of depots and protecting add-ons/turrets.
Turrets already outrange muta. If you build them in a way where you have some turrets that mutaully cover, you can get several extra volleys per turret due to the +2.
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On October 07 2011 09:23 statikg wrote:
Right time to get upgrade: never
2: no
3: dont get it
1: depends on number of mutas and how many marines/thors you have and your basic strategy for muta defense and the number of muats your facing
I usually put up 1-2 at my main if he has a few mutas and you need to add more randmoly around the base to protect addons adn depots and stuff if he gets a bigger flock and you arent going mech.
I usually put up 3-4 if he has a decent flock at my far expansions
Best way to defend from mutas - do tons of drops that keep him too busy to harass you.
1. ur wrong
2. still wrong
3. yep, wrong again
Hi-sec auto tracking is an extremely cost effective upgrade, 1 turret is 100 minz + the mining time lost from 1 scv, efficient turret placement vs mutas is all about zoning them out, and when you're trying to defend a fast third against heavy muta ling play, it is much more efficient to get less turrets and upgrade their range, the more turrets you trade throughout the game the more it will pay back.
On some maps it's hard to cover your production with only 1 group of turrets, with the upgrade it will pay for itself quickly. The armor upgrade is worth it as well once the mutas start coming in and repeatedly sniping turrets as it eliminates the bounce dmg
Hi-Sec auto tracking is also useful for PFs and preventing units from camping behind the minerals on one maps.
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Most people float a lot of gas when going marine/tank, since it's relatively gas light, so really, there's not much excuse to not get it, especially if it will help you be more aggressive.
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On October 07 2011 13:26 Emporio wrote:
Most people float a lot of gas when going marine/tank, since it's relatively gas light, so really, there's not much excuse to not get it, especially if it will help you be more aggressive.
If you have an ebay and are going tank marine, I think bio ups are more important
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On October 07 2011 09:23 statikg wrote:
Right time to get upgrade: never
2: no
3: dont get it
1: depends on number of mutas and how many marines/thors you have and your basic strategy for muta defense and the number of muats your facing
I usually put up 1-2 at my main if he has a few mutas and you need to add more randmoly around the base to protect addons adn depots and stuff if he gets a bigger flock and you arent going mech.
I usually put up 3-4 if he has a decent flock at my far expansions
Best way to defend from mutas - do tons of drops that keep him too busy to harass you.
Wow at saying never to get it.. what the hell.
Have you ever watched MVP in TvZ? Any game that progresses to ~14:00-15:00 he gets Hi Sec Auto Tracking. Every damn time - Why? Because it's great for not only turrets but PF's too.
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On October 07 2011 13:29 101toss wrote:Show nested quote +On October 07 2011 13:26 Emporio wrote:
Most people float a lot of gas when going marine/tank, since it's relatively gas light, so really, there's not much excuse to not get it, especially if it will help you be more aggressive. If you have an ebay and are going tank marine, I think bio ups are more important
I don't play Terran so I don't know if this is completely true, but most people don't get 2/2 right away do they? Maybe it's just poor macro but it seemed to me like many Terrans don't continuously chain their upgrades, so is there a brief timing when you could squeeze in high-sec? Or, potentially lamer but still possible, what about just making a third eng. bay? It costs 125/0 so if it allows you to avoid making a single turret? it has essentially paid for itself when you consider the difference between maybe like 6 normal turrets plus extra gas vs 5 turrets with building armor or whatever. It would probably delay the push a little because you have to wait for the upgrade to finish, but once it does, you would have an even stronger push a little later since you can cut turrets.
I don't really know too well though so feel free to pick what I said apart.
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Here's my thought process on this upgrade, and I think the same one that most pros use.
If you are going marine/tank, you are going to need you engi bays to constantly research attack & armor upgrades, so there's no time to really get hi sec auto tracking. Also your marines can help defend your base against mutalisk harassment, so that will take a lot of the burden off your turrets. Therefore, no need to get this upgrade.
If your going mech, you still need a quick engi bay for turrets, but you won't need to get infantry upgrades. Also you are going to have a lot less anti air in general, and thors will be much slower to respond to mutalisk harass. Therefore, if going mech, this upgrade is almost mandatory.
I recently watched a series of IMMvP vs Darkforce where MVP went mech in 2 of the games. Both times he got the upgrade ASAP, so I'm going to go ahead and conclude that it's not nearly as useless as some people in this thread think. (Also building armor is a really good upgrade, get that too)
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EPT
