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... or that's how I think it's spelled.
Anyways, as we all know, this upgrade boosts turret range, allowing for much more area coverage and discourages mutalisk play.
Questions for discussion:
1. When is the ideal time to get this upgrade?
2. Is it worth adding a 2nd, or even 3rd ebay to run infantry upgrades and this at the same time? Is it worth getting before +1 armor?
3. What do the pros do?
Miscellaneous (Questions about turrets in general)
1. How much is overinvesting in turrets in the main base?
2. Same question, but in the natural?
3. Same question, but in the 3rd, 4th, and so on bases?
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Right time to get upgrade: never
2: no
3: dont get it
1: depends on number of mutas and how many marines/thors you have and your basic strategy for muta defense and the number of muats your facing
I usually put up 1-2 at my main if he has a few mutas and you need to add more randmoly around the base to protect addons adn depots and stuff if he gets a bigger flock and you arent going mech.
I usually put up 3-4 if he has a decent flock at my far expansions
Best way to defend from mutas - do tons of drops that keep him too busy to harass you.
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On October 07 2011 09:18 MrInocence wrote:
... or that's how I think it's spelled.
Anyways, as we all know, this upgrade boosts turret range, allowing for much more area coverage and discourages mutalisk play.
Questions for discussion:
1. When is the ideal time to get this upgrade?
2. Is it worth adding a 2nd, or even 3rd ebay to run infantry upgrades and this at the same time? Is it worth getting before +1 armor?
3. What do the pros do?
Miscellaneous (Questions about turrets in general)
1. How much is overinvesting in turrets in the main base?
2. Same question, but in the natural?
3. Same question, but in the 3rd, 4th, and so on bases?
1. If you are going marine/tank, in the very late game, when all other infentry upgrades have been finished. However, if you are going mech, then you won't need the engy bay for infentry upgrades, so I guess you could invest in it quickly
2. No.
3. Pros basically never get this upgrade, unless its a very long game.
1. It depends on the time. If mutas just popped, then 2 turrets in the mineral line is enough. However, in the lategame when they have a swarm of 20 plus mutas, I would say get 4+ turrets for your mineral lines, and even more for your production.
2. Same as the main.
3. Same as the main.
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There are much better things to spend your gas on. It is not worth it... I don't think I have ever seen a pro get it in TvZ.
Overinvesting in turrets in the main is probably more than 4... 2 in mineral line 2 covering production. I would try to get away with just 2 if I have a good number of marines with medivacs
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if ur playing in a heavy macro game where there are a ton of mutas, your income is VERY HIGH (early 3 base or 4 base+ regular) then sure. feel free to get it if you have invested alot into turrets and there is still a threat of air left.
especially goes for lower league games where there are long stand offs
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On October 07 2011 09:40 Huggerz wrote:
There are much better things to spend your gas on. It is not worth it... I don't think I have ever seen a pro get it in TvZ.
I feel that in mid-late game TvZ, I tend to float gas and I refrain from actually taking the gases at my 4th, and sometimes 3rd base. Is this a huge fundamental problem? I'm rank 3-10 dia on NA server, so I get the basics, but I'm still learning.
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On October 07 2011 09:40 Huggerz wrote:
There are much better things to spend your gas on. It is not worth it... I don't think I have ever seen a pro get it in TvZ.
Overinvesting in turrets in the main is probably more than 4... 2 in mineral line 2 covering production. I would try to get away with just 2 if I have a good number of marines with medivacs
Pros get it occasionally when there is a zerg going really heavy mutas, don't make it sound worse than it is.
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it really depends. but you have to justify it. If the zerg seems to just get a lot of mutas, then it will be worth it. How you find out his strategy is more difficult to judge.
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Pros to get it occasionally - possibly if they know that their opponent is a heavy muta user. However, I think for the casual player, it's almost not worth getting.
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On October 07 2011 09:40 Huggerz wrote:
There are much better things to spend your gas on. It is not worth it... I don't think I have ever seen a pro get it in TvZ.
Overinvesting in turrets in the main is probably more than 4... 2 in mineral line 2 covering production. I would try to get away with just 2 if I have a good number of marines with medivacs
The problem isn't the gas cost, T doesn't require as much gas as the other race (watch GSL/Pros playing, they either don't get gas on the 3rd, or only grab 1 -2 if it's a gold, if not their gas usually starts floating). The problem is that it clogs up valuable upgrade times. Your Eng bays should theoretically be always upgrading weapons upgrade for marines. The big threat of muta is usually when you're still upgrading (as your marines gain more upgrades, you can start relying on them more than turrets).
That said, if you're planning to play mech, then by all means get it and the +2 building armour. It does make a pretty big difference.
Regarding getting away with only using marine/medivac when facing mutas is...playing into the Zerg's hand. If your marines/medvacs are stuck at home defending your base, then Zerg can drone pretty safely and grab expo's. Watch bw, the scenarios are mostly the same but you see Terrans regularly build rows of turrets to block only 11 mutas, just so he can free up marines to pressure.
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I will have to get evidence of this by getting it recorded. But I just did a test on how long it takes a pack of 12 mutas to kill a turret that has high sec tracking and neosteel plating, and how long it takes a pack of mutas to kill a turret with neither upgrade.
My non scientific results came to....
It takes about 7 game seconds for 12 mutas to kill 1 turret with hi sec auto tracking and neosteel plating. 1 muta died, while another was in orange.
It takes about 4 game seconds for 12 mutas to kill 1 turret with NEITHER upgrades on it. No mutas were killed, and one was in the red.
Based on these results, it is hard to say whether you should get these upgrades or not. The DO buy you time (which really is all turrets are good for in the later stages of TvZ when there are way more than 12 mutas). But in the mid game they could seriously ward off muta harassment due to the idea of losing one when you shouldn't be. Finally, as previously noted, in the late game they really start to lose their value as they will just get killed anyway, but they still buy the time.
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what's a discussion without numbers?
How does an upgraded turret (or turrets) fare against batches of 5, 10, 15, 20 mutas?
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On October 07 2011 12:55 michaelhasanalias wrote:
what's a discussion without numbers?
How does an upgraded turret (or turrets) fare against batches of 5, 10, 15, 20 mutas?
I will have to try that out tomorrow......working overtime tomorrow and will need my rest hehehe.
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Armor upgrade is much better upgrade than High-Sec for mutas. It does a fair bit in stalling the muta especially for protecting clusters of depots and protecting add-ons/turrets.
Turrets already outrange muta. If you build them in a way where you have some turrets that mutaully cover, you can get several extra volleys per turret due to the +2.
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On October 07 2011 09:23 statikg wrote:
Right time to get upgrade: never
2: no
3: dont get it
1: depends on number of mutas and how many marines/thors you have and your basic strategy for muta defense and the number of muats your facing
I usually put up 1-2 at my main if he has a few mutas and you need to add more randmoly around the base to protect addons adn depots and stuff if he gets a bigger flock and you arent going mech.
I usually put up 3-4 if he has a decent flock at my far expansions
Best way to defend from mutas - do tons of drops that keep him too busy to harass you.
1. ur wrong
2. still wrong
3. yep, wrong again
Hi-sec auto tracking is an extremely cost effective upgrade, 1 turret is 100 minz + the mining time lost from 1 scv, efficient turret placement vs mutas is all about zoning them out, and when you're trying to defend a fast third against heavy muta ling play, it is much more efficient to get less turrets and upgrade their range, the more turrets you trade throughout the game the more it will pay back.
On some maps it's hard to cover your production with only 1 group of turrets, with the upgrade it will pay for itself quickly. The armor upgrade is worth it as well once the mutas start coming in and repeatedly sniping turrets as it eliminates the bounce dmg
Hi-Sec auto tracking is also useful for PFs and preventing units from camping behind the minerals on one maps.
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Most people float a lot of gas when going marine/tank, since it's relatively gas light, so really, there's not much excuse to not get it, especially if it will help you be more aggressive.
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On October 07 2011 13:26 Emporio wrote:
Most people float a lot of gas when going marine/tank, since it's relatively gas light, so really, there's not much excuse to not get it, especially if it will help you be more aggressive.
If you have an ebay and are going tank marine, I think bio ups are more important
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On October 07 2011 09:23 statikg wrote:
Right time to get upgrade: never
2: no
3: dont get it
1: depends on number of mutas and how many marines/thors you have and your basic strategy for muta defense and the number of muats your facing
I usually put up 1-2 at my main if he has a few mutas and you need to add more randmoly around the base to protect addons adn depots and stuff if he gets a bigger flock and you arent going mech.
I usually put up 3-4 if he has a decent flock at my far expansions
Best way to defend from mutas - do tons of drops that keep him too busy to harass you.
Wow at saying never to get it.. what the hell.
Have you ever watched MVP in TvZ? Any game that progresses to ~14:00-15:00 he gets Hi Sec Auto Tracking. Every damn time - Why? Because it's great for not only turrets but PF's too.
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On October 07 2011 13:29 101toss wrote:Show nested quote +On October 07 2011 13:26 Emporio wrote:
Most people float a lot of gas when going marine/tank, since it's relatively gas light, so really, there's not much excuse to not get it, especially if it will help you be more aggressive. If you have an ebay and are going tank marine, I think bio ups are more important
I don't play Terran so I don't know if this is completely true, but most people don't get 2/2 right away do they? Maybe it's just poor macro but it seemed to me like many Terrans don't continuously chain their upgrades, so is there a brief timing when you could squeeze in high-sec? Or, potentially lamer but still possible, what about just making a third eng. bay? It costs 125/0 so if it allows you to avoid making a single turret? it has essentially paid for itself when you consider the difference between maybe like 6 normal turrets plus extra gas vs 5 turrets with building armor or whatever. It would probably delay the push a little because you have to wait for the upgrade to finish, but once it does, you would have an even stronger push a little later since you can cut turrets.
I don't really know too well though so feel free to pick what I said apart.
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Here's my thought process on this upgrade, and I think the same one that most pros use.
If you are going marine/tank, you are going to need you engi bays to constantly research attack & armor upgrades, so there's no time to really get hi sec auto tracking. Also your marines can help defend your base against mutalisk harassment, so that will take a lot of the burden off your turrets. Therefore, no need to get this upgrade.
If your going mech, you still need a quick engi bay for turrets, but you won't need to get infantry upgrades. Also you are going to have a lot less anti air in general, and thors will be much slower to respond to mutalisk harass. Therefore, if going mech, this upgrade is almost mandatory.
I recently watched a series of IMMvP vs Darkforce where MVP went mech in 2 of the games. Both times he got the upgrade ASAP, so I'm going to go ahead and conclude that it's not nearly as useless as some people in this thread think. (Also building armor is a really good upgrade, get that too)
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Fine maybe use never was a bit definitive.
That said, I barely use turrets at all but if I was going to get an upgrade I would certainly get +2 armor over high sec tracking because when you have a big ball of mutas attacking a turret and your scvs are repairing it can survive WAY better. Having 1 turret that can cover a larger range doesnt help once the game gets to 3+ bases because the muta ball is just way too large to be handled by one turret anyway.
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If you're going to get an E-Bay upgrade other than infantry weapons, I would go with building armor (Assuming you're dealing with mutas here). High Sec is good when you have turrets and PF's, but if you're just trying to deflect mutas, I think that armor is better. It drastically reduces the bounce splash from mutas and keeps your turrets alive longer <-- more time stalled for your marines.
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The reason why +1 is gotten is because marines last longer against lings and blings (in one unit test thread, it was demonstrated that 16 marines die to 32 lings with +1 weapons, but survived with +1 armor), and blings don't one-shot marines (that's why you see pros sometimes get combat shield before stim).
That said, if you're planning to harass the Zerg, like MMA does, then you won't have as many units in your base to defend. This is as opposed to mech play, where it's a much more turtling style, and you have units closer to defend. If you're going bio and constantly moving out, then it makes sense to upgrade range and/or building armor to buy time for reinforcing marines to come. If you're going mech and it's still relatively early in the game, then chance are, you'll have Thors close to your base, or you can spare leaving a Thor behind each mineral line because you're turtling.
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I think you should get it if your going mech since the ebay wont be used for anything else other than to build turrets anyways. If going bio-mech its probably better to focus on infantry upgrades. As mentioned MVP did this in his games and well that's pretty much all the confirmation you'll need I guess.
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This upgrade is completely viable when going mech. I copied IMMvp's mech tvz build, in which he gets the upgrade. It completely shuts down any mutalisk harass and will often kill most of the mutalisks if the zerg is not careful
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The only time I'd really value this upgrade is in TvT when I'm mech and he's bio.
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United Kingdom16710 Posts
If you're going pure mech, and only have thors to fend off mutalist harassment, it's a very nice upgrade to get. It's tough to know when you'll need it though since a proportion of zergs stop producing mutas all together when they see mass thor. If you scout that the zerg is massing mutas though, I suggest getting it and the building armour upgrade as you take your 3rd and you're spread out more. Remember, mech is very immobile and thors are slow as hell. You need a good amount of turrets up to negate heavy damage. Also, remember to pepper turrets around all your expansions even if the zerg did stop muta production. They could easily switch back in the lategame to deny your 4th+.
If you're going biomech, then turret range is not really needed. Marines are more than enough to fend mutas off. In the lategame however, if you have spare gas & finished your infantry upgrades, it might be worthwhile getting just to help defend your faraway bases.
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its also increasing range of planetary fortress, so its very useful indeed against both zerg and protoss
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If I'm not mistaken Thorzain built a third Ebay near his third in the tal darim game against DRG? Can't possibly imagine why he would do it unless it was for those building upgrades. That game was very muta intense so to speak...
I like to build 3 turrets per mineral line once I see the muta blob get really big like 12+. I've never actually taken the time to build a third ebay to get the building upgrades but I've always wanted to try the armor upgrade...
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I have seen pros get it with mech, other than that not so much. I wouldnt copy pros in every detail though if you know you cant defend mutas as well as MVP does its a viable option imo.
If I go mech or if he goes heavy muta and I finished 2/2 upgrades I often get this upgrade or building armor. If you go mech you have the engi bay time and can build less turrets if you have it so why not ,100 gas isnt that much he will often fly into range of 1 thor and 2 turrets with this upgrade and lose some mutas and the confidence to try again. Even getting both this and building armor can pay for itself if he commits with mutas not expecting your turrets to do anything. Basically you need any defense against mutas you can get because if he just rapes your eco while you move out with slow ass mech you re in a bad spot.
However I do think the building armor helps more often because its very versatile compared to hi-sec auto tracking, you still need the same number of turrets to cover everything though and the extra 50/50 resources usually keep me from getting it until late in the game.
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I am surprised noboby mentioned ravens. The range and building armor upgrades are making these auto-turrets quite sick and raven play against zerg is completely viable. That's another style in which you absolutely want these upgrades.
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It's a good upgrade to get if you're going mech because the turrets mean a lot more since you can't often get to the mutas in time.
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Pretty much what others have said, If mechingi
its great and you aren't using engi bay anyway. When you move out with your thors you kind of have to throw down a TON of turrets. If building marines.... get after done with 3-3 I guess. I mean you might as well, but I would never have an engibay upgrading that before attack-armor. Other stuff people don't mention is that it also buffs the planetary fortress which is useful too. Building armor also not a bad upgrade. You just don't have the luxury of getting these early when playing standard marine tank.
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The upgrade really isn't that important, at least not compared to unit upgrades, you always want these first.
What's really important, and what many players (even in the masters league) forget is to build more and more turrets according to the Muta numbers. While 2 turrets in each mineral line are very safe around the 11-13 minute mark, they can very easily be picked of later on. So either leave a Thor behind or constantly build more turrets.
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Hi-Sec is imperative when going mech because of its immobility. You gotta have an ebay for turrets and you won't be getting bio upgrades, so losing ebay tech time isn't a problem (although its really short research time anyway). The +1 range increases turret coverage by like 30%.
In TvZ its a critical upgrade for Turrets vs Mutas. Normally it takes 6 turrets to double cover an entire mineral line, 2 gasses, and CC vs Mutas. Hi-Sec cuts it down to just 4. So the upgrade pays for itself if you make it to 3 bases.
In TvT its a critical upgrade for PFs vs Thors and unsieged Tanks. Normally Thors and unsieged Tanks outrange the PF by 1, however with Hi Sec the PF will be able to return fire.
In TvP its a critical upgrade for Turrets vs Warp Prisms. Normally a Warp Prism without speed can directly cross over single turret and survive. However, a single turret with Hi-Sec will kill it.
There are plenty of pros who get Hi-Sec. ESC-Goody gets Hi-Sec pretty every single game because he goes pure mech in pretty much every matchup. IM's Terrans such as MVP, Yoda, and Happy get Hi Sec very early on in TvZs against fast Spires. I would not be surprised to see it become more common, much like how Slayers Terrans popularized fast Blue Flame in TvT.
However if you're going bio or even biomech then I agree that the infantry upgrades are much more important. As good as Hi-Sec and Building Armor are, if you are already upgrading infantry you probably don't want to devote even more gas to extra upgrades. And because bio is so mineral heavy, you also don't want to add on an extra ebay purely for building upgrades. Besides, bio and bio mech are so mobile that you don't need turrets that much.
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I would say its not worth it, unless 100/100 is nothing to you (maxed). If you want any engin-bay upgrade, it would be the armor. +2 armor turrets will keep them alive a little longer so that marines or thors can come and help. Even then, probably not worth it before 3 bases.
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If your going for a slow push/turtle style mech its as much a no brainer as seige mode is. Mutas can absolutey ruin your day when your meching regardless of how many thors youve got you need a ton of turrets and anything that makes them stronger is obviously a good thing.
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[B]In TvT its a critical upgrade for PFs vs Thors and unsieged Tanks. Normally Thors and unsieged Tanks outrange the PF by 1, however with Hi Sec the PF will be able to return fire.
In TvP its a critical upgrade for Turrets vs Warp Prisms. Normally a Warp Prism without speed can directly cross over single turret and survive. However, a single turret with Hi-Sec will kill it
It also lets your PF hit bio/stalkers that are otherwise safe behind mineral line.
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
On October 07 2011 13:14 CatNzHat wrote:Show nested quote +On October 07 2011 09:23 statikg wrote:
Right time to get upgrade: never
2: no
3: dont get it
1: depends on number of mutas and how many marines/thors you have and your basic strategy for muta defense and the number of muats your facing
I usually put up 1-2 at my main if he has a few mutas and you need to add more randmoly around the base to protect addons adn depots and stuff if he gets a bigger flock and you arent going mech.
I usually put up 3-4 if he has a decent flock at my far expansions
Best way to defend from mutas - do tons of drops that keep him too busy to harass you. 1. ur wrong 2. still wrong 3. yep, wrong again Hi-sec auto tracking is an extremely cost effective upgrade, 1 turret is 100 minz + the mining time lost from 1 scv, efficient turret placement vs mutas is all about zoning them out, and when you're trying to defend a fast third against heavy muta ling play, it is much more efficient to get less turrets and upgrade their range, the more turrets you trade throughout the game the more it will pay back. On some maps it's hard to cover your production with only 1 group of turrets, with the upgrade it will pay for itself quickly. The armor upgrade is worth it as well once the mutas start coming in and repeatedly sniping turrets as it eliminates the bounce dmg Hi-Sec auto tracking is also useful for PFs and preventing units from camping behind the minerals on one maps. I honestly can't think of a scenario where I would want this upgrade over building armour. I ran the math on it for nazgul a while back, since it seems like a logical upgrade for a Mech Terran to get, and it drastically increases the durability of turrets/depos vs muta (and terran buildings in general vs lings).
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I'm not sure if this is being discussed but I don't see how +1 range would yield better results than getting +2 armor. Mutas do low damage fairly quickly so armor really helps.
With that said I wouldn't get either until my marines are 3/3.
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Actually Mutas don't shoot very fast. They shoot a little slower than Stalkers AFAIK which off topically makes PDD absurdly effective against and do slightly more damage when factoring in glave bounces. Mutas are actually quite front loaded.
Additionally, getting +1 building range only affects 2 buildings, armor affects everything.
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Spoiler regarding the GSPA - Pro Lower Finals.
+ Show Spoiler +Here is a game where IM.mvp went mech against darkforce on metalopolis and upgraded High-sec and building armor. GSPA - Pro Lower Finals - aTnDarkforce vs IM.mvpIM.mvp starts researching high-sec at ~11:34 ingame time, and the vod time is 8:33. It's the same time where he starts to construct an armory. IM.mvp starts researching building armor at ~14:40 ingame time, and the vod time is 10:40.
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On October 07 2011 23:42 Antisocialmunky wrote:
Actually Mutas don't shoot very fast. They shoot a little slower than Stalkers AFAIK which off topically makes PDD absurdly effective against and do slightly more damage when factoring in glave bounces. Mutas are actually quite front loaded.
Additionally, getting +1 building range only affects 2 buildings, armor affects everything.
Yeah shooting "fast" was a bit misleading. What I meant is generally you'll get a ton of front-end damage from a bunch of mutas doing little damage. So building armor will negate a good portion of that front-end damage.
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
On October 07 2011 23:48 Tenks wrote:Show nested quote +On October 07 2011 23:42 Antisocialmunky wrote:
Actually Mutas don't shoot very fast. They shoot a little slower than Stalkers AFAIK which off topically makes PDD absurdly effective against and do slightly more damage when factoring in glave bounces. Mutas are actually quite front loaded.
Additionally, getting +1 building range only affects 2 buildings, armor affects everything. Yeah shooting "fast" was a bit misleading. What I meant is generally you'll get a ton of front-end damage from a bunch of mutas doing little damage. So building armor will negate a good portion of that front-end damage.
If I'm not mistaken, instead of doing 9-3-1 damage, with +2 armour they deal 7-1-1. I think even with +1 it is still 8-2-1 which is good (although I can't remember whether 3.333 rounds down or up).
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It would be 7-1-0.5 wouldn't it?
Another thought: It is also helpful to note that the purpose of defenses past the early game are to (1) deter attacks of opportunity and (2) to delay until your real army gets there. Hi-Sec really only affects #1.
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Well Hi-Sec auto tracking only takes 80 seconds while building armor is 140 so if you actually get infantry upgrades hi-sec is easier to squeeze in there and that minute could be crucial if he attacks then. Also only 2/3 the cost, if you only scare the mutas away the armor doesnt really matter and if he has 32+ mutas he can one-shot turrets anyway.
With that said I think building armor has more uses and is probably better if you could choose one or the other but the Zergs I play usually get scared off by 2 turrets hitting their mutas.
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First, don't forget Hi-Sec_Auto_Tracking has multiple uses. Also, getting it and/or building armor can really surprise a zerg player who thinks he knows the range and hits needed to take out a turret or two. (NOT that I'm recommending that.)
Second, just because pros do or don't do something doesn't mean you should always copy them. Learn WHY they do something and then figure out if it's something you can or should incorporate.
If you don't have the reaction and control they do, spend the necessary resources to stay alive. If one turret prevents you from losing 2 scvs, it's paid for itself, also, turrets don't cost supply.
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I don't get how people can say that it's not worth getting the upgrade - and I've seen it used in pro games quite a bit. For some reason I associate it with Clide and his tvz..
Anyway, I get the upgrade as soon as I scout a spire. ALWAYS.. it's a great upgrade that'll allow you to do more with less turrets, and will also do more to prevent your thors dying to magic boxed mutas.
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Better suited for some maps than others when their's plenty of open ground and no real way to zone Muta's. I would say even if you're just going marine,tank,medivac to start hi sec after infantry 2/2 then get armor. Armor is better but it takes longer and the longer you sit in your base the harder it is to push the zerg. If nothing else start getting them about the time you throw down your Ghost Academy.
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On October 07 2011 13:52 Leaky wrote:
Here's my thought process on this upgrade, and I think the same one that most pros use.
If you are going marine/tank, you are going to need you engi bays to constantly research attack & armor upgrades, so there's no time to really get hi sec auto tracking. Also your marines can help defend your base against mutalisk harassment, so that will take a lot of the burden off your turrets. Therefore, no need to get this upgrade.
If your going mech, you still need a quick engi bay for turrets, but you won't need to get infantry upgrades. Also you are going to have a lot less anti air in general, and thors will be much slower to respond to mutalisk harass. Therefore, if going mech, this upgrade is almost mandatory.
I recently watched a series of IMMvP vs Darkforce where MVP went mech in 2 of the games. Both times he got the upgrade ASAP, so I'm going to go ahead and conclude that it's not nearly as useless as some people in this thread think. (Also building armor is a really good upgrade, get that too)
This basically, I'd like to add that though that at least I feel it's well worth it to get the building armor+range uppgrade after I've gotten 3-3 when playing marine tank. It really helps keeping your expansions alive (if you use a lot of PF's).
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Generally it would be a good idea to get a 100/100 upgrade that affects something you have a lot of.
So if you are a safe player and planning to get 2-3 PFs and 10+ turrets this upgrade will do much more than if you are a greedy player with 3 turrets and orbitals in which case you will need a lot of marines to defend all your bases which is possible because of the additional minerals you will have
and in that case you will want your engi bays to upgrade those marines constantly as well.
So basically if you are meching or a safe player get the upgrade if you are not dont get it until late in the game at least imo.
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On October 07 2011 12:02 Bonkerz wrote:Show nested quote +On October 07 2011 09:40 Huggerz wrote:
There are much better things to spend your gas on. It is not worth it... I don't think I have ever seen a pro get it in TvZ.
Overinvesting in turrets in the main is probably more than 4... 2 in mineral line 2 covering production. I would try to get away with just 2 if I have a good number of marines with medivacs
Pros get it occasionally when there is a zerg going really heavy mutas, don't make it sound worse than it is.
Investing in more factorys, thors, upgrades and / or medivacs is a better choice for so many reasons. Turret range is not going to make much of a difference when he has a large number of mutalisks because he can just fly in and kill them quickly anyway...
Personally I would get building armor before turret range 100% of the time in TvZ
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Late game TvZ I get it, other than that, no.
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I'd definitely get it after infantry upgrades are done, mainly for the lols but also because your bases can be safer, if only just a little bit. It also makes sense to invest in the building upgrades if you are armory blocked for 2/2, as is wont to happen in the lower leagues.
I swear, one time I almost won a TvT with Neosteel Frames because my opponent was laughing too hard at the funky bunkers.
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EPT
